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Quirk Life

A life only the radomest could love...

Existance

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Alright here goes another philosophy rant. Again, I want to say, you are not obligated to read this. Alot of you seem to like them. I don't get why and am rather contendly surprised by it. Most of my friends just stare at me, as if I had burst into bouts of French, when I start talking about this.

Also, alot of it, is confusing. The computer screen part, I think, makes the most sence.

Alright, so since God is reality and God is all. Than the next question I want to ask, is what is reality? Time for some ontological fun. There are basically two opinions we can take here- realism, or idealism. Realism, relative to what were talking about, says that the physical world by itself is separate from the mind. That is to say if a Realist was to answer the question “If a tree was to fall in a forest, and no one was there to hear it, would it make a sound?” The answer would be yes. They believe that, our senses perceive the world around us, and that if our senses couldn’t for some odd little reason, perceive that world, that world would still continue to exist. So existence as a realist sees it, is not dependant upon us (or the conscious entity which perceives it) in anyway. Instead an objects existence, is dependant upon itself.

Now an idealist on the other hand, believes existence is dependant up on you, me or the conscious entity that perceives it. An idealist would say that if a tree fell with no ears loping around, that the sound would not exist. They believe that existence is dependant upon the conscious people around it. So if their was a rock and that was the sole sum of what was there, and their was nothing conscious, what so ever, that rock wouldn’t exist. As idealists see it: Nothing conciess= Nothing.

Now here is where I give you my lovely opinion on the matter. J Existence is defined by what is- that is what we can sense, what we can feel, what we can at least attempt to comprehend, ect. Things that we do not sense, and have no way of knowing, simply do not exist. For example, do you believe there is a leprechaun standing next to you right now? I dare you to look! You probably don’t see one (or at least I hope you don’t..) So you say leprechauns don’t exist. However, from a realist point of view leprechauns could very well exist- their just not perceived by us. And as a realist see it, an item doesn’t have to be perceived by anything to exist.

This view is insane. If we take a realist point of view, practically anything exists! Unicorns, dragons, Harry Potter, your dear little leprechaun stalker next to you, talking rodents, an victorious end to the Iraq war… The list can go on! Our mere experience with existence and our common conception of it teaches against the realist point of view. What exists, is what we sense. Our senses is what determines what exists. Without us sensing it- there is nothing.



Now there’s more than that. Look around you- at the wonderful land of existence- AKA the room in your house with a computer. You see computers, keyboards, dancing leprechauns, ect. The thing about that, is that, you sense the things around you. You perceive them. There is no direct informer between your actual senses and that object. And since there is no direct connection (or informer) between the item being perceived and us (like the pink line in the picture), the very fabric of existence is weaved by conscious perceptions- not by the item itself. So to give the item the power to weave it’s existence is silly since existence is not created by the item- it is created and weaved by sensations.

Again, I’m going to try to clarify that further. When you look around at the land of existence, you see something. However, your not be directly informed of that item by that item. Your being made aware of it through your eyes (your senses), to you. Everything you see, feel, smell, hear, taste, ect is not the item directly. It is perceptions. The very fabric of existence and reality around you is not formed by the item but by your senses.

You see the computer screen- hard, bright, rectangular, metal tasting, quiet, odorless ect.- all of which are sensations of the computer screen, not the actual computer screen. Without the sensations of the computer screen their would be no computer screen. The item’s existence is therefore dependant not upon itself but upon the sensation it brings. It’s the sensations of the conscious entity that forms existence. So if you really look at it, perceptions of conscious entities are the only true direct reality.

Ergh. Okay. I hope that made sense. It took me forever to figure out how to explain. I spent like 3 hours today walking back and forth trying to figure this out. The last paragraph made the most sence. It’s basically this: Existence is only your perception/sensations. Without those perceptions/ sensations their would be nothing. (Imagine no sensations/ perceptions. What is it? Nothing) Perceptions and sensations form reality. So, congrats! You managed to get through my Ontology rant alive! Next, I’m going to hopefully apply this to God and ethics. Somehow…

So I'm back from my My Opera hiatus.What the heck I've been up too...

Comments

wickedlizard 15. May 2007, 20:45

you beauty! i love it when you do this! :heart:

wickedlizard 15. May 2007, 20:47

are you an aquarian by any chance... if not, there is a lot of signs of it in your astrology for sure! p:

wickedlizard 15. May 2007, 20:48

have you had a look into Quantum Theories... you´ll have a ball.

I am both a realist and idealist... now figure that one out! p:

slimex 15. May 2007, 20:48

I could discuss this very long time with you but i wont.
because it will be an endless discussion.
Instead I'm asking
Why do we try to prove god exist or not?
Why do we try to explain our beliefs to other and force them to believe what we believe ?
Why cant we just believe what we want and let the others believe what they want?

I think you should think harder on your ontology there are many things we don't sense or see but they exist.
I just couldn't shut my mouth :smile:

Amy_E 15. May 2007, 21:33

@Isabel

Nah. I'm a virgo. My moon signs an Aries though. Quatum Theories? That sounds like it might be fun.

@Suat
Why do we try to prove god exist or not? God's important. People want to make sure what they beleive is right.
Why do we try to explain our beliefs to other and force them to believe what we believe? I'm not sure. I just try to finalize my own beleifs. I don't really care if other's beleive what I beleive.
Why cant we just believe what we want and let the others believe what they want? That would be nice...

I'm curiouse, though what exists that we don't sense?

slimex 15. May 2007, 21:56

I wont discuss I jump out here thanks :smile:
Next....

slimex 15. May 2007, 21:58

Believes, Sport, and Sex is something i prefer to do than discuss about :smile:

wickedlizard 15. May 2007, 23:47

:lol: @ slimex!

@ Amy: virgo with aries...hmmm... have you done your full chart???? very philosophical for a virgo... strange and even for an aries...

NFGman 16. May 2007, 00:32

You said: "And as a realist see it, an item doesn’t have to be perceived by anything to exist. This view is insane. If we take a realist point of view, practically anything exists!"

This is spurious, based on an incomplete understanding of the issue at hand. A realist says "Just because _I_ didn't see it, I cannot prove it does not exist." This is absolutely the truth. It is logically impossible to prove a negative, you can only prove a positive. "I have run 300 tests on this turtle and every single one points to its continued existence."

You go on with another fit of spurious reasoning: "The item’s existence is therefore dependant not upon itself but upon the sensation it brings. It’s the sensations of the conscious entity that forms existence. So if you really look at it, perceptions of conscious entities are the only true direct reality."

You're on the right track but you're taking a narrow piece of truth and expanding it too far. The core tenet of your little theory is that we create our own realities. This is mostly true. We create our own interpretation of reality. No two people have the same view of the universe, the reality we create when we interpret the sensations received are ours and ours alone.

Our own realities are real for us, but do not apply to others.

hierSmitty 16. May 2007, 11:20

I'm looking forward to seeing how you apply this to god.

EivindFS 16. May 2007, 14:02

What a sharp mind you have, Amy. I hate to harp on your age, but you made me have to look up a word in the dictionary. Okay, I'm not a native English speaker, but I rarely have to look up words in blog posts. I get some weird kick out of knowing that you're 16. I won't bring it up after this though. Your views deserve to be treated on their own terms, not as those of a 16-year-old.

I will be reiterating some points made by others here, but I want to make one thing clear upfront: You're contradicting yourself and I don't think you notice it. Or more precisely you're falling prey to your own limited perception of "senses".

Okay, first let me determine my home ground. I'm not an idealist nor am I a realist. I'm not even all that familiar with their schools of thought. And I don't really like defining myself as any -ist at all. If there is one I can embrace, though, it's integralist.

You see, BOTH VIEWS ARE TRUE. It's a matter of context, definitions and a whole lot of other things. The question then becomes "true in what way?". As philosopher Ken Wilber poignantly points out, noone is smart enough to be wrong all the time. Which is to say that any school of thought, no matter how naive, has some grain of truth in it. Our purpose is identifying this truth and using it to leverage open communication across ideologies, religions and philosophies.

Judging from your definitions and your own discourse, you seem to sympathize with the school of thought you label idealism. You claim that a realist leaves the possibility for the existence of unicorns open and that it's an "insane" view. Your interpretation of realism as a school of thought that leaves this possibility open has already been refuted and I tend to agree with that refutation. To label a school of thought that actively embraces the existence of fantasy creatures "realist" seems far fetched to say the least.

But I care little for the definitions of idealism or realism, I care about your personal philosophical contradiction. You are in favour of a worldview where reality is 100% dependent on the senses that perceive it, that there is no reality beyond sensory perception. Now, how are senses interpreted? By the brain right? Or, according to a more integral view, the MIND. Any and all sensory perception, BEFORE it has meaning TO YOU is INTERPRETED by the mind. So really, you're not taking this far enough. You're saying there are only senses. But what you're aiming at is that there is ONLY MIND. And by that line of thinking, saying that a Unicorn does not exist is nonsense. OF COURSE it exists. Otherwise you would not be thinking of it, you wouldn't be able to close your eyes and see a clear depiction to your mind's eye. It DOES exist, Amy. The question I suggest you ask is not whether it exists, but HOW it exists? If you're talking about something, it exists. You're writing about it for crying out loud. It's right there in your own words. It's there. It exist, it exist, it exists! BUT HOW? HOW!!!!!!!!!!!

Consider if you will your mind as a 6th sense. No...actually, if you do that, I will accuse you of thinking nonsense so never mind that. Mind is not a sense, it's the framework within which all senses can operate. Brain researches have found that the brain cannot tell the difference between an object perceived by the senses and the same object perceived by the mind's eye. This is why visualization is such a powerful tecnhique. Essentially, your contradiction is this: Your reasoning SUPPORTS the existence of unicorns. The problem arose when you forgot the role of mind.

Hey Amy, consider this: ANY religion, ANY philosophy or ideology has truth in them. Because they're not smart enough to be 100% wrong you know! So instead of fighting them, let's embrace what is true WITHIN them and discard the rest. In that way we don't only engage our mind in a more efficient way, but we're also working on our ego. KICK ASS!

Stay well clear of nihilism, please. There IS a world OUT THERE. You're touching your keyboard aren't you. It's right there! Does it disappear when you leave your flat? Yes, it disappears to you (and thus to reality as you know it), but does it TRULY disappear? If it does, you can't really expect it to be sitting there when you return, can you? Careful how you think, Amy, because this is one delicate balancing act. Yes, it's true - it's all mind. And still there is a very tangible world "out there". You are everything, and yet you are separate. This is the paradox of existence. This is the middle way.

Any worldview that isn't making love to PARADOX is incomplete.

Much to think about here!

Hey, and thanks for teaching me "ontological" :-)

Eivind

barefootwanderer 16. May 2007, 15:23

Whoah

this gets better and better :smile:

I must say I'm with EivindFS on this one - Both theories are relevant. Interesting point though regarding existance of things such as Unicorns. While they may not exist in a material or perceptible sense - the image of them - and opinion of them is pretty constant whoever you ask.

Eivind's post highlights one of those issues in any academic discipline that makes for interesting debate in itself.

in any given discipline, there will be people whose theories work on the exclusive. i saw this when i studied psychology in college - models of attention and perception theories - i could not separate myself from the thinking - well this bit from this theory makes sense, and works well with this bit of another theory. Putting the thoeries together to make something unified that works.

I'm an integralist in almost everything - I just never knew the term :smile:

alot of people's problems with subjects like this is they view existence in a fairly one dimensional view. If you can imagine something it exists, it exists as a concept - not all existance is material. you cannot touch concepts like justice, faith or humour - you can touch the trappings of such - but not the concept itself - and yet such concepts exist, that fact cannot be denied.

just a couple of my thoughts on this :smile: would write more but i'm at work and about to pack up and head out.

Nikio 17. May 2007, 15:58

@EivindFS: i think Amy's essay made a lot more sence than your post. It is simple; phylosophy is, as any other science, based on LOGICAL THINKING. Saying that unicorns exist just because you think so (and just because you happen to believe in them) won't proove anything.
Now; idealistic and realistic paradigms are quite well constructed (much like mathematical theories; they don't come out of nothing, but are based on certan procedure of logical thinking). Of course, Amy doesn't mention that, which is OK, but there are foundamental works we shuld mention (for example: Aristoteles, Plato, Dante, etc...). If we want to make ourselves creative and useful, we should start where these guys left and consider all of the scientific evidence of modern time. I think Amy does that (or at least tries), you however don't. Denying (or rather ignoring) previous works is a huge step back.

slimex 17. May 2007, 20:02

Bravoo you really know how to mess with peoples brain Amy :smile:

angel292005 18. May 2007, 02:24

So if you really look at it, perceptions of conscious entities are the only true direct reality.



It is actually quite sad that people think this way. It is like denying the existence of life. What about a blind/deaf/mute with no arms to feel with? In their mind there is no name/color/feel for the world around them..but yet that world exist. It exist and will be there as a great source of danger if they are not taught how to deal with it. That can apply to things that someone perceived as 'normal' would have to deal with as well...just because we can not see it doesn't mean it exist. My point above...all senses removed...it is still there.

If people think in such a '2D' way or 'black and white' way...then how are they ever to see future goals and dreams come true? I think it would be humanly impossible.

and you said in a comment,

I'm curiouse, though what exists that we don't sense?



How will you know if you don't have the belief that something can exist without seeing it..? You would not believe it if someone told you anyway. :smile: (just saying in general not personal)

:smile:

angel292005 18. May 2007, 02:25

:yuck: @ slimex and his sex comment...my god! :faint:

bluepolaski 18. May 2007, 04:23

Ontology? Epistemology? Metaphysics? Words even I haven't really used in my life until recently. You're destined for some great things if you keep learning at this rate!

slimex 18. May 2007, 04:41

@angel i cant do anything about your lost sens of humor. I do not talk about material senses and feelings.we are half dead when we go to sleep, do our feelings, senses and brain totally stop and can you guys stop thinking? I dont think so. Then i believe the body is not that make me what i am. My spirit is real me. My body is only a material thing i use on this world to live. I was in another life form when i was in my father and again another life form in my mother. I believe i was alive befor all of that, and i will live on maybe not in this world and not in this body. There i electric waves, radio waves and many other things we cant see or feel without the right equipment. When you as a simple human can turn 1000 lights with one clap why should my creater dont be able to control millions of life? Our eyes can see over 5000 things in one moment but we can only concentrate in one or two of them.you see we are not capable to see every thing. I hope i could explain my self. :smile:

EivindFS 18. May 2007, 06:26

Hi Nikio, it appears you didn't get a hold of what I was trying to convey. I'm used to that, so no worries. I've come to understand that this is due to the Western worldview's entrapment in the domain of matter. If you can't see the unicorn, it doesn't exist, huh? Well, what kind of reality is that? Where you need to use your five senses to determine the reality of something. And where on earth is the logic in that? I'm thinking a thought, but cannot prove its existence because I can't see it?

So a dream is not real? You may say "of course it isn't" and I will refute you 100%. A dream is as real as the experience you're having of it. By normal definitions, a dream is not a sensory experience, but have you ever had a dream that made you sweat, made you feel smells and tastes, maybe even got you sexually aroused? That is the power of the mind. It can create sensory experiences that are as real as or even more so than the material world can (which opens up the question "how much of the world is real, and how much is projected by us"). The question again is "real in what way". Examples: Creativity is a REAL force, so is intuition, chi and, careful....SPIRIT. We must be sensible here, because sooner than we know it some sad git may slap scientific proof in our faces about the nonexistence of love. I don't know about you, but I can't live with that one :smile:

I have no idea why my post is denying previous works. But the interesting thing about your admonition for listening to these is that if we do wholeheartedly submit to the truths of previous discoveries, we will have no development. Let's scream from the rooftops: "All future paradigm shifts for mankind are off"!!! What's this quantum physics anyway? It flies in the face of everything *I* ever heard of. Sounds about as real as unicorns to me! Sorry, I'm dancing the sarcasm dance.

Well, yes.... a thought *is* real, Nikio. To me, that's so obvious that denying it is irrational. If our worldview doesn't embrace the reality of thoughts, we become slaves to the material world and our experience of it, totally missing out on the fact that even our senses are a kind of thought, just subtler forms of thought.

Ken Wilber will tell you all these things way better than I can. And even though I appreciate pre-Christian philosophers as much as the next guy, *I* think it makes a lot of sense to listen to recent discoveries made in the meeting of Eastern esoteric and Western exoteric traditions. Our understanding of reality is shifting by leaps and bounds these days. There's just so much more here now than in ancient Greece, man.

We must integrate, integrate, integrate.

And listen silently to the whispers of the world.

slimex 18. May 2007, 07:02

.@EivindFS I didnt ignore your comment i just wanted to write my own opinion. This is not dream i am talking about we are real only the material world is dream. What i am talking about is a little part of Something like the movie matrix.

slimex 18. May 2007, 07:45

There has been some wrong entries by me. I am at work and in hurry its hard to write whit my tiny mobile button i will explain it better when i am at home

EivindFS 18. May 2007, 07:50

I wasn't addressing you Slimex, I was addressing Nikio.

Wow, we're turning this thread into a discussion forum. Amy: Connecting people. Hehe. There's a lot of interest here. That's a good sign.

slimex 18. May 2007, 14:51

n the start I didn't want to talk about this subject because its big and we can go on and on endless.
Ok here is it Amy i hope you don't mind, this is a long version of my explanation with my bad English. Every one of you guys have one piece of one big puzzle,
If we have to see the reality then we have to set the brick together. look at the whole picture not in one piece let say the picture is a zebra but if you look at one piece of it you will think it is only some stripes and some of you even wont get any reality of it. We human have connection to everything in the universe let take universe its big and every planet is one universe for it self an again every planet stars has an effect on this world we are living and we are connected to this world. you see there is no random here and no coincidence. First of all we have to believe there are one creator one artist to this big art there must be a writer and a publisher to this big universe and all other universe. If we chose not to believe any creator then lets do it. I start this blog was not created by Amy the whole blog was coincidence this comment is not written by a human it became randomly can you see how silly it will sound an can you see art without an artist. If you take one hand full scrabble brick and throw them on the floor, maybe after 1000 times there will bee some pieces landing together were it will stand MOTHER, but even if u throw them 1million times there will not stay MOTHER I LOVE YOU KISS ME you are free to try. This is only 19 letter, the universe is endless and everything is in harmony if it wasn't then there will be chaos if there was no rules and harmony every thing will flow around there wouldn't be anything. The rules we can bend but not break we cant imagine to fly and fly without of fly machine, glider or balloon, we cant create a living thing but we can change it or clone it. There are gravity its a law God has created the world in law and order. God tried to proof us that he/they can create a human without of father (Jesus) our brain couldn't understand even that little disorder as miracle. Could our little human brain explain it. example A game creator has always some rules and order in the game world that's the way it will make sense or else we couldnt play the game. God did the same thing he placed an order to his creation. Yes there are scientist they explore things invent things but the scientist would only proof there are god, not chaos. scientist explored that every human and living has a map (DNA) that is a proof of god. I wont believe a map made by chaos and disorder, if it was coincidence it wouldnt match. I don't care if you believe in God, Allah, or Jehovah even believing in Aliens is better than believing in coincidence and chaos. Ok now Where is god? how do she/he/the look like?
Can we human imagine something without emptiness squares, circles, and lines? imagine one place its not emptiness not space there is no up, down, left, right, east west north and south there are no time? if you can imagine anything without those things then you will be able to see God because god is not in side of his own creation. we have no capacity to see god w cant see beyond emptiness and space. God has humour like ridler from batman. He want us to believe him without seeing him and that's the only price for all the free things we get like our hands eyes and other parts the world, air and more.... Some times i believed it was to cheap, but i understand its not cheap because believing in god means surrender. Its Not a dream we are living consider we are travellers who travel through this world and life like we did when we were on our fathers testicle and our mothers stomach. The only thing we don't know is our destination to this journey. when we were on our mothers stomach if some one came and told us there is a bigger world and to come out to that world we have to leave this little stomach as we thought was our world, i think we would probably not believe it.
I could write more but i am tired. English is not my Primary language it gave me headache :smile:

angel292005 18. May 2007, 20:22

@Slimex-If you were writing such crap on my 16 year old daughter's blog, I would have you ignored. :D 16!!!!

Furie 18. May 2007, 20:42

Sixteen? Really? I'd have said early twentys from the way she talks/types. Maybe I'm just used to the idiots round this town who can't even spell their own names when they hit that age. Still surprising though.

Furie 18. May 2007, 20:53

My two cents - I'm a realist. As much as I hate to admit it, I know the world exists without me. However, I also know that my presence can and does affect the world in many ways. At the smallest level, had I not posted here the people watching this post wouldn't have been alerted to new things and would have been slightly more bored.

If a tree falls in a forest and there's no-one there it does make a sound. All it takes is a tape recorder to prove that one. There's nothing I can do to change that. But, if I kill a bee that's come into our house I can change the sound the tree makes. A principle most commonly known as the butterfly effect. I kill the bee, it doesn't bring home enough pollen, the hive dies, hundreds of years later the tree the hive was in falls and makes a minutely softer sound than it would have due to having no bee hives in it. Insane line of thought, yes. Possible, yes.

Sorry if my random weirdness has brought this post down a bit, but I also have weird outbursts where I define reality and explain the unexplainable.

slimex 19. May 2007, 00:34

@angel292005
you sound someone like 13 years old, did your parents allowed you to surf the internet without observation?
:lol:

Furie 19. May 2007, 09:40

How can a thirteen year old have a sixteen year old daughter? :confused:

angel292005 20. May 2007, 13:31

@SLIMEx "I sound like someone of 13?" Well sorry to tell you, I am 31 will be 32 this year...and that is how much younger than you? Umm not by so much! Get your facts straight, at least I went to your blog and found out how old you were before accusing you of being a PERV.

AND WHEN I WAS 13 THERE WAS NO INTERNET YOU FREAKIN' GENIUS!!!!!!!!!

bye and have a nice life. :happy:

EivindFS 20. May 2007, 16:17

Relax. Smell a flower. Breathe deeply. They're just words on a screen

Furie 20. May 2007, 18:20

If you're relaxed then stop insulting people. Imagine people's blogs as their house. I've thrown people (in one case good friends of mine) out of my house for arguing, with no regard for who was in the right and who was in the wrong. And I'm not the only one who views things that way.

slimex 20. May 2007, 19:43

Ok i redraw i deleted posible comment i have the rest can amy delet for me i was not here i didnt comment the blog i take evrything back. I can see some people dont know how to act in civilized world.

nopanic 2. June 2007, 10:27

A beautiful life alertness Amy. Any conclusion will make life offer you 10 new questions:lol: That´s the way it seems to work:) keep wondering and be corious and I think you´ll be dragged through the most beautiful land- and mind-scapes:)

wickedlizard 3. June 2007, 00:01

:yes: Nic!!!! :heart:

nopanic 4. June 2007, 12:42

:smile:

Pence 6. June 2007, 15:34

That drawing made me smile,looks like the cheerleader from Teen Girl Squad at homestarrunner.

kavishwar 16. June 2007, 02:45

AMY , I must appriciate ur zest to know the things in right perspective.Just think on , "what haqens when u go to deep sleep ? Does anything exists ? If not ....?! If it exists whose sensory organs experience the existance ? What is that ? It is that unseperable thing which binds all of us in a common thread. And about age .... There is no limitation on age when a personality can have such question. It is rather graceful to have at an so called early age.Ur parents r lucky to have daughter like u . Aniruddha from "INCREDIBLE INDIA"

rfhurley 16. June 2007, 23:07

NOOOO!!! Not another freakin' Ontologist!

};-)> (Philosophy major joke)


btw... Isabel... I'm a Capricorn: we're practical and down to Earth-- and therefore do not believe in Astrology


google "Sidereal Astrology"

nopanic 18. June 2007, 10:59

I`m a Capricorn and believe that astrology has a certian impact on us:)

Back Up Babblings 13. July 2007, 09:30

Wow!
This post is amazing!
And my leprechaun buddy totally agrees.:lol:jk
I loved your diagram it really helped explain things.:smile:
It's just how you explained everything this would be extremely mind boggling for me, but you were able to explain things so clearly.

Furie 13. July 2007, 09:34

I want a leprachaun. :D

Back Up Babblings 14. July 2007, 23:50

:no:
He's my leprachaun!!!:lol:

Feylolo 10. August 2007, 05:07

aww.. now we're talking about leprachaun p:

Krypto 12. August 2007, 12:50

See what thinking gets you!

IMHO it is good to examine life...think, ask questions, read and question more.

If God can do anything, can he/she/it make a rock so big it can't be picked up?

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