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Russian Attack on Georgia

Tuesday, 12. August 2008, 15:06:00

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See this important post by an Opera user in Georgia:

http://my.opera.com/lakbe/blog/2008/08/11/stop

Cool Inventions of 2008Creative Viagra e-mail names

Comments

LorenzoCelsi 12. August 2008, 15:22

Reminds me of the former Yugoslavia, which did not go well...

CultureSurfer 12. August 2008, 15:27

Invasions never go well, do they? If the leaders of the world would just learn their lessons from history, we'd live on a more peaceful planet. But they aren't interested in peace, especially when oil and natural gas are at stake.

LorenzoCelsi 12. August 2008, 15:56

Here there isn't an "invasion", there is a former "State" (Soviet Union) that became a Federation of more or less "independent" Republics and was also split when some of those Republics did not join the Federation (see Ukraine). Among some of those "federated" Republics there are areas of attrition between different etnical groups. In this case we have got Georgia, that would want to break free from the CSI federation, inside whose borders there are two "areas" that would want to separate from Georgia itself, seeking help from mother Russia against Georgia. Above it all there are of course hidden interests in controlling the resources and the geopolitical plans, as usual.

That is even more difficult than Yugoslavia because nobody wants to confront Russia directly fearing Russia could close in itself instead of opening to cooperation with western Europe, not to mention the impossible direct military confrontation between NATO and Russia, while was much easier to go bombing the Serbs.

But since I live in a country with big differences between an area and the other, I understand the difficulties in dealing with stuff like "indipendence" versus "national unity". You know, there was a civil war also in US...

CytoMark 12. August 2008, 18:19

Thank you, Naomi for sharing the link to these very moving pictures. It reflects a collective picture of the ravages and severity of war's actions. The innocent always suffer.

PainterWoman 12. August 2008, 20:53

Thank you for sharing that link.

musickna 12. August 2008, 21:03

Another pointless conflict, and all down to ethnic tensions and local geopolitics. :frown:

slackwrdave 12. August 2008, 23:53

I swear, blogs and net news are the only way I learn about anything. The TV is just bits and pieces of nothing usually. Thanks for the links and comments above.

BrendaLee 13. August 2008, 16:12

Thanks for sharing

LorenzoCelsi 13. August 2008, 17:29

On a side note, I guess USA should have been a little more cautious about sending military advisors and weapons to Georgia...

lakbe 13. August 2008, 17:51

Dear Naomi!

Thanks you for such attention to my posts about an attack of Russia to sovereign Georgia.

After a meeting of the president of France Nikola Sarkozi, Russian as if have stopped fire, but have freely released the cossacks who have started plunders the Georgian cities and they will shoot all the Georgian. This already ethnic cleaning.

Russian think, that not only Abkhazia or South Osetia, but also weight Georgia - this is Russia...

Georgia is very small, but the old country and in any way and is similar nothing with Russia.

Thank you very much!


Best,
Mikho Mosulishvili

CultureSurfer 14. August 2008, 13:05

Mikho-
Pleass continue to update us on this post about hat is really going on, since as Dave pointed our we really get very little news on tv.

Ethnic cleaning...when will people learn??? So disturbing.

I hope you are somewhere safe?

CultureSurfer 14. August 2008, 19:18

The following information/petition came to me via renowned Bosnian author/humanitarian Svetlana Broz (whom I interviewed several months ago). I'm not sure how much influence a petition like this has, but you may want to read the following info. & check out the links:


Dear friends,

The conflict between Georgia and Russia has threatened thousands of civilian lives and risked a wider war.

Georgia and Russia have agreed to an EU-brokered ceasefire plan, but the situation remains precarious. We urgently need a full withdrawal of all forces and implementation of the ceasefire plan to prevent further conflict. A massive global public outcry will show Russian and Georgian leaders that the world wants a ceasefire, and that further aggression will damage either country's international reputation. Click below to sign our emergency petition and then forward this email to your friends and family. We'll publicize the petition in the media and deliver it the UN Security Council and the Russian and Georgian governments:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/georgia_ceasefire_now/97.php?cl_tf_sign=1

Russia and Georgia have a long history of tensions, but the recent hostilities were sparked over a small region called South Ossetia, which is seeking separation from Georgia. For years South Ossetia has had de facto autonomy, but after clashes between Ossete militia and Georgian troops, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili ordered the army to occupy the breakaway province. The Russian army immediately responded by driving the Georgian army out, bombing targets and attacking towns deep within Georgia.

History teaches us that small wars easily spark larger ones. Saakashvili has applied to join NATO, angering Russian Prime Minister Putin, who may be using the invasion to remove the Georgian leader and teach a lesson to other Russian neighbours who would like to join NATO. As Georgia is a close ally of the United States, the conflict could escalate dangerously. The Georgian and South Ossetian people could become victims of a great global contest for power in the oil rich region.

Wars get more vicious and harder to end the longer they last. The best time to stop this one is right now -- let's act now, and help make a full withdrawal of all forces the first step in a peaceful, negotiated solution to the root causes of conflict in this troubled region.

With hope,
Ricken, Iain, Veronique, Graziela, Brett, Paul, Pascal, Milena and the whole Avaaz team

PS - here are some links for more information on this conflict, and a link to learn more about Avaaz campaigns:

For more information about Avaaz campaigns:
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/report_back_2

For more background on the conflict in Georgia:
International Crisis Group: “War in Georgia” --
http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=5623&l=1
BBC: “Georgia-Russia Conflict” -- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/europe/2008/georgia_russia_conflict/default.stm
Financial Times: “Russia is forfeiting its world standing” --
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/90c9bd3c-6805-11dd-8d3b-0000779fd18c.html

The European Union proposes a ceasefire:
Moscow Times: “Europe takes lead in bid to resolve conflict” --
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/600/42/369718.htm
IHT: “ Europe taking a diplomatic approach to Caucasus conflict” --
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/11/europe/diplo.php

Turbid 15. August 2008, 10:37

12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ

The truth about the war in Georgia: http://war.georgia.su/

LorenzoCelsi 15. August 2008, 10:57

I see two different approaches here. It is pretty obvious the Europeans would like to see Russia as a partner while USA probably wants to keep Russia and Europe separated, leveraging on the NATO treaty. I hope Russians do not make the same mistake the Serbs did in the past and help the European efforts to stay in touch instead of building a separation and a confrontation. I guess it involves the way the Russians see themselves, they must decide if they are part of the European "koine" or they are not, which IMHO would be the most stupid idea ever.

CultureSurfer 15. August 2008, 17:02

Turbid, thanks for the link to that video. I have to say, Fox news is not trustworthy at all. It's well known that they do some of the most unbalanced reporting in the US. On the other hand, the first report I heard about this conflict was that Georgian troops fired first on Russian troops. I believe it will take a while for the whole picture to become clear, if it ever does.

Lorenzo, thanks for your insight as well. I have a feeling the Russians have been having a bit of an identity crisis since the end of Soviet rule. After all, they had a huge & prosperous empire for hundreds of years until recently. That loss of power can't be easy to swallow. (not justifying their actions but giving a partial, possible explanation)

LorenzoCelsi 15. August 2008, 17:38

See, I am not anti-US like many people here and I really like Americans, BUT...

1. After the collapse of the soviet "empire" the east European countries looked at US as a model and a sponsor. In the same time they applied to the EU admission because of the economical implications. Problem is the two things don't go together well because US doesn't have any interest in a strong EU that would result in a competitor, both economical and political. In the past we had England as US trojan horse inside the EU, now there are all those new members who are stuck in contradiction, split between the need of being part of the EU and the need to make their US sponsor happy.

2. US are pushing and pushing against Russia. For example they are placing new missiles and radar networks in the east European countries told above (see Poland) and pushing for admitting them in the NATO organization (see Ukraine). Georgia was not admitted in the NATO only because the Europeans saw it was a clear aggression to Russia. It doesn't take a genius to understand this is aimed to put Europe against Russia, considering the EU is expanding east and in the same time seeking the Russian cooperation. In Georgia there are American military advisors and special forces. Imagine if Russia places troops, missiles and radars in Canada and Mexico and made a military treaty with both countries. Would Americans be happy with it?

3. You must be aware that US is spending ALONE like all the rest of the world together (see here: http://my.opera.com/LorenzoCelsi/blog/military-spending-in-2008) in the military, US spend 10 times than Russia and currently is involved in TRUE long term invasions of al least two other countries, and occuping several other areas in the world. It takes some courage to accuse others to be "militaristic" and after a while that aggressive attitude and fake moral superiority gets annoying even in places like mine that has been a colony since the end of WWII. You can't stomp on everybody feet all the time.

4. Now we are having Russians working here and Russian tourists too, We can travel in Russia and so we don't see them as the "enemy", Europe LAST thought is to make an enemy of Russia we don't want and we can't afford it. So US should better understand it because I don't see any good coming from this politics.

CultureSurfer 15. August 2008, 17:52

I totally agree with you that the US has no right to accuse others of unfair military invasions/incursions (or whatever you consider this conflict between Russia & Georgia). I'm not representing my government in my opinions, I'm representing myself.

I am fearful that the US and Russia seems to be poised to go into another Detente or Cold War but I am hoping they both become more reasonable in the very near future.

BTW, I have not run into anti-American people here on Opera, at least not in the group of people I deal with. I am not so ignorant, though, to assume everyone loves Americans, particularly after almost 8 years of Bush in office.

LorenzoCelsi 15. August 2008, 17:56

See, there are different interests, that is normal.
What is wrong because it is both useless and provocative is to place US troops and weapons in all the ex-soviet countries all along the Russian borders. What can the Russian think of it? Do you think it is a move acceptable by somebody who says to want to cooperate and make friends? You do not trust a friend who patrols outside your home with a shotgun, do you...
These things are made here in Europe and we Europeans are involved in this nonsense US politics and we can't do anything but try to mediate. This is annoying because it is wrong and because makes evident that US is not as friendly to Europe as it says either.

night wolf 15. August 2008, 20:01

Invasions Suck :down:

slackwrdave 15. August 2008, 21:39

I was immediately suspicious of how things were being laid out on the TV because Condoleezza was dispatched over there so fast. That means something is afoot and there will be a ton of deception to wade through.

lakbe 16. August 2008, 18:12

Dear Naomi,
Thanks you for such attention.
When you live in Georgia is for Russian bombers without variously, where do you live - all the same will be bombs...
I live in capital Tbilisi and while bomb only suburb...

I ask you to read on links:

http://georgien.blogspot.com/
http://russiangeorgianwar.blogspot.com/
http://stop-bombing.blogspot.com/

Turbid 18. August 2008, 05:03

If I would have killed 2000 civilians, I would also ate his tie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqSIXIwGLhI

lakbe 18. August 2008, 10:03

Turbid,
It is better to eat the tie, than will destroy as the Chechen Republic, and Georgia as it makes your favourite government...

Turbid 18. August 2008, 10:39

lakbe,
I recall that Georgia is sheltering Chechen terrorists, provided them with assistance and helped infiltrate mercenaries into the territory of the Russian Federation? Blood on the Chechen land - part of the blame on Georgia.

p.s. Go look Rustavi-2, CNN and the BBS and buy bread for the bloody U.S. dollars. Only your children will be ashamed of their parents.

LorenzoCelsi 18. August 2008, 10:57

Despite inevitable propaganda on both sides, the main issue here is the NATO bombing Serbia because they were supporting the independence of Kosovo from Serbia and now the same NATO supporting Georgia against the independence of the two "enclaves". Same for Russia, supporting Serbia against Kosovo and now supporting the two "enclaves" against Georgia. There isn't right or wrong, true of false. Principles and rights are "variable" depending on the situation.

For sure I think it would be better to spend way less money on weapons and much more on making bread. And I don't know why people who need bread are so keen in using weapons.

Turbid 18. August 2008, 11:13

LorenzoCelsi,
Quod licet Jovi non licet bovi.

Double standards solve all.
All nations are equal. Only a few equals.

lakbe 18. August 2008, 12:17

Turbid,
That you here speak about the Chechen fighters as though their Georgians supported are a lie which you listen from your tele-boxes.
But occupation of Georgia is already the fact - Russia wants to create again the empire and it happens in the twenty first century.

LorenzoCelsi 18. August 2008, 12:32

If there weren't people getting hurt, the world would have been funny.
Like US financing and arming the Afghans against the Soviets back during the Reagan era and then Hollywood producing the Rambo movie in which our hero goes to Afghanistan to fight alongside the "heroic freedom fighters" against the evil Russians (Rambo III).
Some time passes, the 11/7 and then out of the sudden the Afghans turn from "heroic freedom fighters" to "coward terrorists" and now we have the US exporting democracy in Afghanistan doing more or less the same as the Russians.

Turbid 18. August 2008, 13:27

lakbe,
Once Georgian princes have asked themselves in this "evil empire". And "empire" protect you from the Persians and Turks. You have a short memory.
You do not understand the core. If there is the desire to build empire - is primarily a creative beginning. This is not a "divide and rule" - is that the U.S. is trying to do.

LorenzoCelsi,
Good that someone other than Russia knows about this.

lakbe 18. August 2008, 13:53

"If there is the desire to build empire - is primarily a creative beginning".

Eh... :(

Any empire do not remain in the world - and would be better, Russia has mastered SIBIR, than it dreamed of a gain of other world.



Stop Russia’s Unlawful Military Invasion in Sovereign Georgia! - http:/www.petitiononline.com/557799

Since August 8, 2008 the whole world has been witnessing Russia’s open military invasion into the independent and sovereign Republic of Georgia. Thousands of soldiers and tanks of the Russian Federation have breached the internationally recognized borders of Georgia and have been fiercely attacking Georgian troops. Furthermore, Russian warplanes have violated the Georgian airspace and carried out air strikes at different Georgian cities outside the conflict zone. These strikes have caused hundreds of casualties among civilian population.

The main reason for Russian invasion is Georgia’s close ties with the United States and the European Union countries and its willingness to build free and democratic society. Russian invasion is a desperate move to curb Georgia’s aspiration to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and the European Union.

This outrageous military aggression by Russia unequivocally reveals its imperialistic aspirations. Irresponsible incursion by Russian troops into sovereign Georgia can be perceived as nothing less than Moscow’s strong nostalgia for the Soviet Union era and zeal for “restoring” its rule in neighboring peaceful countries. By invading Georgia, Russia sends a clear message to the free world that it is ready to brutally punish any of its neighboring countries that choose to embrace the democratic and humanistic values, which the United States and the European Union countries are standing for.

The moment of truth has come for the United States and the European Union nations. Georgia needs HELP from its American and European friends to stop Russian invasion. Failing to react to Russian blatant military aggression will undermine the future of democracy in the region and beyond. Furthermore, inaction by the United States and the European Union nations will give a go-ahead to Russia to carry out military aggression elsewhere in its neighborhood in the future.

We are calling on the President of the United States and the Leaders of the European Union Nations to help Georgia and to actively pressure the Russian Government to cease fire and to withdraw its troops from the Sovereign Republic of Georgia.

LorenzoCelsi 18. August 2008, 14:02

I think everybody in the world knows about it, even some Americans. :smile:

It is like the (in)famous mysterious weapons of mass destruction Saddam was hiding or even the mighty army he had, like the feared Republican Guard. Once I saw some videos showing the Iraqi elite troops demonstrating their skills and there was a poor dude wearing a funny helmet exactly the same as Darth Vader in Star Wars. Come on...

Personally I think that:
1. Russia MUST decide if it is part of Europe or not. It is not crappy tanks that make the difference in today's world, it is economy that rules that all. I don't see any other way than Russia being integrated in the same economical partnership like the other eastern countries. I don't understand where Russia wants to look for friends if not looking west.

2. I don't get this NATO stuff. Is there somebody in Georgia who really believe somebody would risk the III world war because of their attrition with the Russians? How much money must the EU give to Georgians and Russians so both quit being annoying and playing with guns?

3. The real problem here, globally speaking, is how to deal with the US.

lakbe 18. August 2008, 14:19

Lorenco Celzi,

Sir,

While in Italy Russian tanks and fighters have not come, and you so ironically can argue here...

And here, in Georgia - not only buildings have destroyed also the loss of peace inhabitants, in national parks have thrown bombs and even the wood burns now.

Come on...

Turbid 18. August 2008, 14:23

lakbe,
This article you can frighten American housewives. Red Alert, Evil Empire ... Why are you here to spread this nonsense?

lakbe 18. August 2008, 14:30

"If there is the desire to build empire - is primarily a creative beginning".

TURBID, THIS IS NONSENSE!

PainterWoman 18. August 2008, 14:31

This old American housewife is not frightened. I do not believe everything I read on the internet news or TV news. One or two minutes is given to important issues. To me everything is propaganda and one-sided. Things like this have been going on for as long as I can remember.

Turbid 18. August 2008, 14:39

LorenzoCelsi, Do not worry. :-) If Italy is no longer tolerate second-fascists to power, then this will not happen ever. Even despite the fact that we have something to remember:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_participation_in_the_Eastern_Front

LorenzoCelsi 18. August 2008, 14:45

Russians do come to Italy, they come to work, trade business and for vacations. Italy also sell goods to Russia and buys a lot of natural gas and some oil. Like I said, Russia is a strategic partner for us, so I don't see Italy (or any EU country) going in war against Russia any time soon.

We had invaded Russia once in the past and while we were there we discovered that the place is wide, cold, almost empty and it makes much more sense to marry a Russian girl and settle down instead of blowing up stuff and killing people.

Don't tell me to remember, I am the one telling you to MOVE ON. Stop living in a bubble of separation.

Turbid 18. August 2008, 14:55

lakbe,
>>If there is the desire to build empire - is primarily a creative beginning".
>TURBID, THIS IS NONSENCE!

Yes, once entered themselves in this empire. We have to throw you were at the destruction of Turkey and Iran. However, your culture has survived. Want to bet?


PainterWoman,
I did not want to offend you. Just the fact of false propaganda.

LorenzoCelsi 18. August 2008, 15:03

The housewife, everywhere in the world, should ask the politicians why they are spending money on weapons instead of building schools, roads, hospitals and such.

For example, the B2 American bomber costs more then the double of its own weight in gold... It means if it was made completely in gold, they could have build two for the same price and some gold would have remained...

Since one of those planes costs $2.2 billion, do you think giving that money to people in Georgia (on both sides) would stop the fight?

lakbe 18. August 2008, 15:16

Turbid,

I have written earlier:

Army of Adolf Hitler - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler
on the Caucasian ridge have stopped grandfathers of these pilots who bombing today the Georgian cities...

What I still can tell?

Goodbye...

PainterWoman 18. August 2008, 21:15

Turbid, no offense taken.

IgorSite 19. August 2008, 16:13

Уважаемый Mikho Mosulishvili - зачем вот так вот вводить людей в заблуждение?
8 августа Грузия разбомбила мирный город Цхинвали, уничтожила военные городки миротворцев России, убила миротворцев, добивала русских солдат выстрелами в голову. а уж потом Россия ввела в южную осетию части 58 армии РФ.
О какой агрессии идет речь?
Грузия это агрессор против мирного народа южной осетии. Саакашвили это второй гитлер.

August 8, Georgia began to bomb hospitals, schools, kindergartens, a city in which civilians were sleeping Tskhinvali, the peacekeepers base had been destroyed. Georgia first declared war on the inhabitants of the southern osetii.
Russia peacekeeper! Saakashvili offender!
Open the eyes!

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=-md8MuU5TVY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqSIXIwGLhI
http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=_t8wPpN6DlQ

Peace!

lakbe 19. August 2008, 18:08

Igor,

Not only I, but weight the world am such error is an ambassador intrusion of Russian armies into sovereign Georgia.

Such actions sometimes name is occupation.

I still want to tell, that from Georgia it is impossible to look Russian web-sites.

And are still destroyed almost all Georgian web-sites - as the Russian hackers bombed earlier web-sites as in Estonia, so in Lithuania...

So - you the government all over again occupied Georgia, and now it needs "PEACE!" to continue to burn woods in our national parks and to decrease peace inhabitants. And that still Russian soldiers stole that in hands will get - a toilet bowl or a plate...

The truth about this war read here -
http://georgien.blogspot.com/
http://russiangeorgianwar.blogspot.com/
http://nicolaslandru.blogspot.com/



Turbid 19. August 2008, 18:59

lakbe,
Неуважаемый швили. Харе пиздеть, а?
Сука, лес им подожгли. А детей и женщин в упор расстреливать - это хуйня, да? Выморозок.

Нахуя подсовывать эти фотографии, на которых даже слепец видит, что сделали их в голливуде? Статьи, написанные тысячами вашими продажными журналистами, ни стоят ничего перед несколькими словами той 12-летней девочки.

Дрочи на свою "суверенную" грузию сколько хош. Не подставляй только своих сограждан. Народ грузии не виноват что у руля стоит дегенерат, заручившийся поддержкой таких отморозков без совести как вы.


Dear readers, apologize, but here above, I allowed myself to one comrade to report that it might be a bit wrong and introduces other deceptive. Just in Russian me easier, but my comrade lakbe perfectly understood me.

lakbe 19. August 2008, 19:28

Turbid,

I speak nothing about Russian people, but I only write about your favorite the government which occupied the small country.

Yes, I without morals because the truth I write, but you have very moral and You can continue to abuse me...

I shall not answer you of anything except for it is:

The wolf of Tambov-city to you comrade, not I... :)

This is the other Russia -

'How the West Fueled Putin’s Sense of Impunity'

By GARRY KASPAROV
August 15, 2008; Page A13

Writing for the Wall Street Journal, Russian opposition leader Garry Kasparov comments on the war between Russia and Georgia, blaming the West for letting Russia slip into authoritarianism.
“Russia’s invasion,” he writes, “was the direct result of nearly a decade of Western helplessness and delusion.”

Russia’s invasion of Georgia reminded me of a conversation I had three years ago in Moscow with a high-ranking European Union official. Russia was much freer then, but President Vladimir Putin’s onslaught against democratic rights was already underway.

FULL TEXT - http://www.theotherrussia.org/2008/08/15/kasparov-the-west-fueled-putins-sense-of-impunity/


IgorSite 20. August 2008, 01:06

Каспаров - это вообще политическая проститутка, не надо тут писать это имя.

IgorSite 20. August 2008, 01:30

lakbe, Россия никогда не нападает первой, в отличии от США.

По поводу отключения сайтов, это скажите спасибо своему Сааке., он сразу 8 августа отключил весь ненужный интернет и ненужные телеканалы. И сразу же встал на колени и молил Буша о помощи.

Твоя страна стала разменной монетой, США просто проверяли мою страну., а Саакашвили, это как наш каспаров - много вони, мало толку. Проплаченые вашингтоном политики.

Когда Одна страна нападает на другую, а третья защищает и входит в первую это не оккупация. Да и у России был, есть мандат на проведение таких мероприятий.

Ищите виновных в Тбилиси! Саака уже съел галстук, опозорился на весь мир своим бегством.

И еще это уже третья грузинская атака на Цхинвали, первая была в начале прошлого века, тогда грузинская армия стерла (почти) с лица земли всех осетин (тогда вместо Буша ими командовала Англия), второй раз попытка Гамсахурдии, третья 8 августа 2008 года, четвертой не будет!

Russia will never attack first, unlike the U.S.

IgorSite 20. August 2008, 01:38

2 all
Georgia attacked South Ossetia
Russia Defends South Ossetia
Russia peacekeeper
Saakashvili - Nazis, the Government of Georgia - the aggressors.

Open the eyes!

CultureSurfer 20. August 2008, 01:46

Igor and Turbid, please keep your comments in Russian AND English or English only for the benefit of everyone reading this blog post. I majored in Russian Area Studies about 20 years ago, but I have unfortunately lost much of the language.

To everyone, please keep your comments polite. I know this is extremely difficult considering what is going on, but I don't want a war on my blog.
Thanks/Cпасиба-
Naomi

IgorSite 20. August 2008, 02:53

Naomi sorry.
The truth about the war in Georgia: http://war.georgia.su/
Please change the title of the topic, because it is not true.

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