Dangerous Dave's Dlog

Panels vs Windows Re: GM4Mac

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In Mac OS X, there are two types of what I will call "windows" (that I know of whistle). There are regular windows, and there are panels. Panels do not behave like normal windows, for example when you run expose (the program that shows all of your windows on the screen at once, allowing you to choose which window to give focus to), panels are not shown.

I have been thinking about the windows in GM, the ones that pop up when you double click on an object, a sprite, a room; a resource. Should these be panels or regular windows?


I often find myself losing the object windows into the background. In GM for Windows, they are contained within the window. Each window is actually within the GM window. I guess this can be likened to panels.

Now as many of you probably don't know, Mac's have a rather different approach to windows than Windows does. This is mostly hidden from the user, except one part. In Windows, a window represents an application. Close window, close application. Many of you switchers would have noticed that when you got to Mac OS X, after you closed the window the little light was still glowing under the Dock icon, showing the application was still open. Huh? You say? This is because in Mac OS X a window represents a document, not an application.

Think of it like this: You have MS Word open, and there is a big X in the top right corner that will close Word. There is a smaller X in the same region that will just close the open document. Clicking the close button in Mac OS X is like clicking the smaller X, closing the document but not the application. There are all sorts of reasons for thing, ranging from consistency to ease of use (ease of use for someone just learning computers, not for someone who's used Windows for 20 years), but that's outside the scope of this post. But after using it for a year, I wouldn't want it changed.

Now GM for Mac could go in three directions:

1. Leave it as it is: Most likely.

2. Use Panels: Least Likely

3. Manage windows, to make them appear inside the main GM window.


3 Would make veteran Mac users cringe. The window system was set up this way for a reason.

1 Is really awful. You can't open one object, open another, and compare. When you open the second object, since you clicked in the main GM window it hides the first objects window behind the main one, and shows the second one. You have to manually bring the other one back.

2 Panels will likely be the most difficult to implement, but their use means the panels will always be above the main window, but aren't limited to the area covered by it. When you run expose, it would show the GM project instead of each resource properties window seperatly. This setup should also make it easier to open multiple projects at once, in seperate windows. Because Mac programs are supposed to work like this, you can't run the application twice. That means we are currently limited to one project opened at once, it appears (I made two copies of Game Maker so I can have two open). No other application I have found has this problem.

One thing I love about Macs is how most developers stive for system wide consistency, and it would be great if YoYo Games did the same. Knowing almost none of the technical aspects of acheiving it, I would like to suggest panels as a possible option. Failing that, a system that works like I have described would be great. As a minimum, at least don't let the object windows hide behind the main window.

-Dave

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Comments

Unregistered user Wednesday, April 8, 2009 5:42:09 AM

desertdweller writes: "Knowing almost none of the technical aspects of acheiving it, I would like to suggest panels as a possible option." Lol. On a serious note, what exactly are panels? Are they docking windows like in a lot of programs (Illustrator CS3 and Visual Basic come to mind) that can be docked in specific portions and not interfere with the position of windows any further? I have always hated Game Maker child windows. Every one of them has to be a child of the parent window. Sometimes, (this particularly happens with rooms) I forget this, and the "child window" ends up being larger than the "parent window." It then follows that there is no way for me to resize/minimize/whatever the "child window," and as a result I can't do anything with rooms for a while till I stumble on the solution which I still haven't figured out yet. Execute Code windows are even worse. I have yet to hear a decent reason why that is the only resource window which must stay on top of the others until you close it. It's very annoying...

Dangerous DaveDangerous_Dave Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:50:43 AM

Panels are a difficult thing to describe. Usually they are used as toolbars, but in a very mac way (with each part floating, one document in the middle and the panels around the outside with all of the tools on them. I can't really describe it very well, so I'll post an image smile.

Clicky Clicky

The red circled window is the document, the yellow are panels.


Panels are treated differently, the most important thing with regard to GameMaker is they are always overtop of the document. The tricky bit could be having different panels for different documents, but I really can't stand how it is now. Something must be changed.

As for the code windows, there was a reason put forward, possibly in the GM8 suggestions topic. Can't remember what it was now.

I think I remember now. It was because every other action required you close the window before continueing. Code is an action, while scripts are a resource. That's why it's different: Consistency.

Unregistered user Thursday, April 9, 2009 3:19:22 AM

Anonymous writes: When I was working on a Game Maker for Mac interface redesign, I did not use the standard panels, yet I used the HUD Panel (dark gray, semi-transparent, rounded) for object properties, sprite properties, etc. To be honest, especially on Mac OS X, I do not see a need to include a minimize action for item properties, it just clutters things. Resizing the panel would be done via the bottom-right drag icon. As for the rest of the GM interface, I think that YoYo needs to find a balance between edmunn's design and the current Game Maker one. There needs to be a strong emphasis put on native UI elements, which edmunn does not do. That being said, his use of tabs is smart (albeit overused), but some elements, such as the toolbar, should be brought into Mac territory with a standard toolbar, slider, etc.

Unregistered user Thursday, April 9, 2009 3:19:55 AM

Dr. Watz0n writes: That above comment was mine, sorry :P.

Unregistered user Friday, April 10, 2009 2:16:34 PM

desertdweller writes: "I think I remember now. It was because every other action required you close the window before continueing. Code is an action, while scripts are a resource. That's why it's different: Consistency." Consistently different? Perhaps there could be an option to change that setting--it's really annoying for me.

Dangerous DaveDangerous_Dave Saturday, April 11, 2009 2:14:30 AM

I had a poor choice of words, it's not different. All actions freeze the rest of GM while you are editing them. This includes the code action. You can do other things when editing any resource. This includes the script resource. It is consistent, though the ability to disable this freezing of the window when editing an action could be a viable option.

Unregistered user Monday, April 13, 2009 4:55:07 AM

desertdweller writes: Yeah, I understood you the first time. :) All the same, it would be nice...having code editors always on top really gets annoying. Another is accidentally clicking the open file or new file icons instead of the save file one. GM then has to close every darn window you have up. ["Would you like to save changes to obj_player?", "Would you like to save changes to rm_menu?"] Finally, it asks if you actually wanted to open a different file...too late though, all your windows are closed. ... ...

Unregistered user Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:04:30 AM

Skarik writes: So, you're saying it's a bit like the layout of GIMP, right? Although I hate that layout for image editing, I'd love if Game Maker was like that.

Dangerous DaveDangerous_Dave Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:46:14 AM

Actually I don't think I would like Game Maker like GIMP. Really I want it to look and function just like the Windows one (familiarity breeds liking) but Windows doesn't have Expose (though I wish it did) so I have suggested how I see GM fitting into that and the Mac platform. Though if it was GIMP like, I could deal with it. It would feel more Mac-ey.

The image I posted above was to show the difference between the document and panels, not how I wanted GM to look.

Unregistered user Saturday, June 6, 2009 4:50:56 PM

jwheeler writes: I don't know if any of you know of the music notation software "Sibelius". But they have a really good interface for mac. Basically it's just a toolbar under the finder bar that locks off that area of the screen from all Sibelius windows (so you don't overlay the close buttons. They also have floating panels identical to those in the PC version. All panels and toolbars disappear when you select a non Sibelius document. So what we could have for GM4Mac is a toolbar attached to the finder bar that is pretty much identical to the toolbar in the windows version (but made pretty to match the style of all other good mac programs). And also a single floating panel that is always on top when a GM window (room / sprite / object / script / sound / timeline / background / fonts) is open. And these all fade away when you click off a gm window. I think all settings and popups should be panels (e.g. the popups from D&D buttons including in object script editors, clicking preferences from the finder bar, global game settings etc...) Ill upload a graphical representation of what i mean. James

Unregistered user Saturday, June 6, 2009 10:15:27 PM

James writes: http://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=22&u=13268611 here you go. I forgot to centre the title of the object window. As another idea, they could have one window for all the windows i stated in the above post. And just have tabs and dynamic resizing. Or even one window for each sort of window. E.g. you open a room and a window appears, you open an object a second window appears (on top of the room window). But then you open a different room and it brings the other room window to the front and loads the new room in a tab along the top.

Dangerous DaveDangerous_Dave Sunday, June 7, 2009 3:27:09 AM

That looks a little GIMP-y for my liking. I use a program called SeaShore, it uses some GIMP code but can do a lot less (the author points out it's not a GIMP replacement, but rather they should compliment each other). I don't like GIMP's use of windows, but I understand it since it runs in the X11 environment, so panels aren't available (in the Mac OS sense). SeaShore is a native (cocoa) application and takes advantage of panels in all the right ways. If Game Maker were to use that layout, I would hope for something like that.

However, as well as that works for an image manipulation program, I don't see it working for Game Maker. I would much prefer to watch all of the Mac fan-boys shudder and throw in an environment identical to the windows one in looks, with the document taking up a large background space, and resource property windows overlayed using panels.

This way it works in with expose, showing each document as a window rather than each object info window as its own (which is what annoys me about the current Mac version). Unfortunately I am not convinced the developing environment they are using can pull of what I am asking for.

Unregistered user Sunday, June 7, 2009 10:07:25 AM

James writes: what you on about it's nothing like gimp http://static.kvraudio.com/i/b/sibelius5.jpg see! Anyway gimp is awful to use but only because you have to select the window/panel before using the window. Eg it takes two clicks to change the tool. Also theres no shape drawing tool. Wats with that? But GIMP uses the same sort of layout as seashore and a lot of other programs. The only difference between my idea and all thes other applications is it has a floating toolbar that is fixed to the finderbar.

Dangerous DaveDangerous_Dave Sunday, June 7, 2009 11:44:49 AM

Ah, you see I was talking about your mock up. This program you have here has something in common with an image manipulation program, it has one window to work on while the rest are tools.

Game Maker doesn't fit this. You don't have the game in the middle and drag things onto it, you have each part of the game opened in it's own window. Because of this, things feel messy when you open many. That's why I think a GM for Windows look should be used instead.

Unregistered user Sunday, June 7, 2009 12:11:24 PM

James writes: Ah ok. Different opinions, although in reality they should use that mockup that other person made. But to do that would be asking too much of yoyogames. Which is why i'm suggesting an "easier to implement" based on what they have already. IMO, Making it like windows would be a bad move but a good starting point. James

Dangerous DaveDangerous_Dave Sunday, June 7, 2009 9:32:28 PM

"But to do that would be asking too much of yoyogames. Which is why i'm suggesting an "easier to implement" based on what they have already."
Because of the development environment, I don't see anything changing from what we already have unfortunately.

Unregistered user Sunday, June 7, 2009 10:39:32 PM

James writes: I haven't used the mac beta (i installed my Hackintosh after the sign up deadline) But from what I've read of your blogs, it seams to be the same as the windows version, but the "sub windows" can go behind the main window. Which doesn't seem good to me. I don't see why they can't just remove the main window and replace it with a toolbar and toolbox. Oh well, there's not much we can do to influence their decision anyway. I'm sure they have they're own plans. James

Dangerous DaveDangerous_Dave Monday, June 8, 2009 5:37:28 AM

"But from what I've read of your blogs, it seams to be the same as the windows version, but the "sub windows" can go behind the main window. Which doesn't seem good to me. I don't see why they can't just remove the main window and replace it with a toolbar and toolbox."

I believe their problem is they want to develop one version that can work on all platforms (hence their choice of development platform). I really don't see much changing from what it is like now, though a GIMP-like system would probably be the easiest to implement, with or without that extra bar (but preferably with).
They simply don't have the resources to develop each version tailored to the platform which, although it would yield much nicer results, would take twice as long to do (and we all know how short our patience is).

Unregistered user Monday, June 8, 2009 10:09:02 AM

James writes: Yeah. Oh Well. Thanks for replying, i'm out.... for now. James

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