I've had more than enough of Norwegian feminism
Thursday, 4. October 2007, 15:33:33
Yet again the women's battle for equality is raging through the media as Princess Märtha Louise happened to say what so many people know: Women earn an equal wage for an equal job.
Now, most feminists would turn into a ball of fuming rage at the mere mention of such a claim, which is what they are currently doing of course. But that's because they've meticulously built a take on reality based on illusions, false statistics, self-victimization and demonization of men (true, some deserve it, but not ALL!). These are hardened women, women with lines in their faces and aches in their bodies who have misunderstood who they are and as a result are fighting against a genuine emancipation of feminine values. They're doing this by actively adopting a masculine posture, celebrating the hunt as opposed to nurturing their opening to the mystery of love. In the process, they are killing their feminine core, hurting themselves immeasurably and turning their bodies into bundles of stress-related symptoms and surrounding their lonely hearts with thick layers of impenetrable defense mechanisms. Happiness and this kind of feminism cannot exist in the same person (unless she's one of the few women who have a masculine core by nature's design, which is rare).
Now, most feminists would turn into a ball of fuming rage at the mere mention of such a claim, which is what they are currently doing of course. But that's because they've meticulously built a take on reality based on illusions, false statistics, self-victimization and demonization of men (true, some deserve it, but not ALL!). These are hardened women, women with lines in their faces and aches in their bodies who have misunderstood who they are and as a result are fighting against a genuine emancipation of feminine values. They're doing this by actively adopting a masculine posture, celebrating the hunt as opposed to nurturing their opening to the mystery of love. In the process, they are killing their feminine core, hurting themselves immeasurably and turning their bodies into bundles of stress-related symptoms and surrounding their lonely hearts with thick layers of impenetrable defense mechanisms. Happiness and this kind of feminism cannot exist in the same person (unless she's one of the few women who have a masculine core by nature's design, which is rare).
From this perspective of total self-denial, of shedding any trace of truth as to what they REALLY want in this lifetime, they're gunning down anything that's even remotely resembling something real.
The greatest illusion of all is that men earn more than women. If you use the logic of an idiot and do an average of all men and all women, then yes - you will find that men DO earn more than women. Add more features to the statistical analysis, widening the perspective of that totally incompetent view of reality, you see that men on average work an awful lot MORE. You will also see that men sacrifice social and family life, at their own peril for sure - but still they do it, to pursue their career. They work RIDICULOUS hours and work themselves into a dead-end for little else than compensating for the love that they didn't get from their parents and are not getting from their woman (she's not getting it from him either mind!).
Warren Farrel was the poster boy feminist supporter. Women loved him so much in fact that they elected him three times to the Board of Directors of the National Organization for Women in New York City. But then at one point he realized that the women around him weren't looking for solutions at all, they were looking for problems. And they were completely incapable of accepting any resemblance of responsibility for anything at all. It was ALWAYS the man's fault. That didn't sit right with him so he started to look deeper and added more properties to the statistical analysis that was being done. And what he found, when everything had been taken into account - education, number of hours spent at work, actual performance etc - women earned MORE than men. NOT LESS!
Not only did women in the US earn MORE than men for the same work, they were more frequently perpetrators of domestic abuse! So when the TRUTH CAME OUT, the women didn't like him anymore so they booted him right out of the warmth so that they could keep denying reality from the comforts of their own illusions.
And even though I haven't employed Farrel's methods in Norway myself, there is no indication that the situation is any different here. And so many people who visit Norway and are asked what they think about gender equality in the country shrug and say "I don't know why those women are fighting - the situation is vastly in THEIR FAVOUR." In Norway, competency is not anymore what gets you some of the jobs or grants. So then what is the criterium? The direction of your genitalia. Which IN REALITY is so incredibly disrespectful of women that it defies belief.
So these feminists who would love nothing more than to become a man with boobs, hips and the ability to carry children, keep trolling along in their soap opera of delusion. Who are they? They are women who think they're fighting for feminine values, but that have so misconstrued what that means that they are ACTUALLY fighting for women's rights to adopt masculine values. That's all fair and square, but is that what they REALLY want? Do they want to be women who want to be men? Do they want to be opposed to that which is TRULY feminine in the world? As long as they are labelling themselves feminists, they're stealing the opportunity for TRUE feminists, women who want to be FEMININE, from finding a spot in the public discourse.
What the feminists must understand is that what is defined as "making it" in today's world is a totally masculine game. Feminine values are not at all respected outside of the home. You can't "make it" anymore as a mother, as a goddess incarnate. No, you need to make your way ahead in life and earn big bucks, like a big boy! If you are - as a woman - the most awesome, loving nurturer in the world, if you're lighting up the world by your very presence, if men cry with spiritual delight and wonderment from merely laying eyes on, if you are so deeply connected with your core that a true man can enter you and penetrate you to gone, you're still - by today's standards - a loser if you're not famous, rich or somehow "making it". THIS is where feminism needs to focus. Because every feminine woman deep down knows that this is sick. They know it from their inner hurt.
The princess is right. Not only is she right, but if she were to speak the REAL truth, she would tell us that the Norwegian woman has her white knuckles firmly wrapped around the balls of the Norwegian man. And while squeezing ever tighter, she's crying with increasing fervor "Why are you doing me wrong you asshole?!?". The man is in no position to reply of course, because if he did, his balls would be squashed.
Feminism in Norway has not only run its course and achieved its goals, it's now become pathologic, sick and a large-scale societal problem. When a large part of the public discourse is based on deluded views from antagonists who have lost connection with their core, society suffers. Most young women know this (which is why they don't bother with feminism). Many older women know this too. At least the ones I know. But they're not speaking out about it, because they are TRULY feminine. And truly feminine women are far too busy with expanding their love, living spontaneously in the mystery of the eternal now, of learning to go ever deeper with their man while shedding their heart armor, of celebrating the flow of life itself, to start bashing their chests and crying foul all day long. They know that if they enter the fray of this everlasting gladiator battle that never stops to claim its victims, they will become as miserable as the women who are already fighting it. AND THEY DON'T WANT THAT.
There is only one solution to this predicament. Every man must accept individual and total responsibility for becoming stronger, more self-aware, more focused. In short, more masculine. Because as much as they may think otherwise, these feminists cannot beat us at our own game - which is direction, and committment to the mission, the purpose. And when we prove that with FORCE, they will finally feel safe to return to their feminine beauty, their feminine awesome strength, an infinity greater than the crap they're manifesting now. And then love will prevail and Norway will finally be healed of the confusion that leads to hardened women and soft pussywhipped men.
And when that happens, these antagonists with tits will stand face to face with the hurt they've inflicted on the world, JUST LIKE men have for the past several decades. And they will hurt so bad. And that will be the start of their return to paradise.
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(11%)
WIDGETIZE
Likewise your choice of pay gap statistics seem to do the same reduction. Instead of deal with the complexities of what the paygap may mean (part-time vs. full-time, areas of job possibilities, biological reality of child-bearing, chances/choices of career advancement), it is all reduced to a slanging match between Farell and his detractors. Your truth is contextualised and someone elses lie and I'm not convinced where the 'truth' sits in all of those numbers. I don't see much possibility of dialog (listening and empathising as well as talking) there at all. It seems a demon is built out of a 1960s first-wave feminist caricature (straw-woman?), and then a passionate call for some primeval man to regain power is made against said caricature.
I know a lot of young feminists who are so utterly nothing like your caricature, women who don't follow your polarity of either being ugly antagonists-with-tits OR beautifully feminine. Humans are shockingly diverse in all aspects, including their gender. Do you really deny the possibility of being radical and beautifully humane?
By non-troppo, # 5. October 2007, 01:00:11
I'm not sure how much of this is meant seriously, but it's interesting that you seem to define the characteristics above as specific to the different genders. Why must it be so, and why must men and women follow them?
By For_d, # 5. October 2007, 08:28:18
Should it matter if someone who acts is male or female? Should the word which is used to describe the career have a different meaning for the gender, as if the career of acting was different for men and women. If it REALLY makes a difference, can't you just say "a male actor" or "a female actor". This is the heart of equality, when words lose their gender-specific meanings, and can only be disambiguated by a gender modifier like male or female.
I dislike clubs that are for women-only. I'm applying for scholarships, and as a white, middle-class male, there's almost NO scholarships available for me. And yet if I was female, I'd have tons more. I think the sexism situation in the United States is reversed, but the females are still making a fuss about it. Searching for trouble without a solution.
By IceArdor, # 5. October 2007, 18:12:03
There are numerous male movements (masculinists). Warren Farell who Eivind references above is an example of a masculinities social scientist whose work has prompted more direct action. In cases where there are clear anti-male discrimination, like maternal/paternal rights, there are many radical activists (Fathers rights movement). in the UK for example, Fathers 4 Justice are very well known for their activism, most famously causing a huge scare when they flour bombed the Prime Minister in Parliment ;-)
In English, there are traditionally gendered names for professions; seamstress and seamster for example. In Spanish or Italian (and many other languages), everything is gendered (La Luna, the moon (female); El Sol, the Sun (male)). Do you think that reinforces gender differences (are the French more sexist than Australians)? I don't see what is so ominous about gendered name endings. A seamstress is not better at her job than a seamster because her profession has a suffix rather than prefixed gender in the word.
Indeed if only women were allowed into University we'd be in big trouble. The female trusts I've seen for academic funding have largely been for subjects not traditionally studied by women. So for example I don't know of female-only nursing scholarships, but do of engineering scholarships.
On the subject of ***-only clubs, I am generally opposed, but let me play the Devil's advocate
By non-troppo, # 5. October 2007, 19:48:51
Your friends don't fit into the categories because they're fucking scared. Just like you are. Otherwise, you wouldn't be writing like that (I sympathize whole-heartedly though. I had a father who expected great academic performance of me. Much like yours I trust). And just like me. I'm very open about that. I've stared that demon in the eye and quivered in its presence. Especially tonight. But that's another story.
Most people's lives are a lie. They have barely an ounce of expressed authenticity in them. It's all suppressed behind iron curtains of fear. Chances are your friends are just playing a role their parents taught them and now they're trapped in a caricature painted by society. Now I'll paint some of my own, if that's okay with you. Did you expect me to create a bullet-pointed list of thousands of minor permutations of the stated archetypes just to please you?
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Hans: It has always been like this. The fact that you even question that the masculine and the feminine are clearly defined polar opposites speaks volumes of the widespread destruction political correctness, denial of the world and all kinds of anti this and pro that, have had on the soul of the world - and on yours (and indeed mine, brother! We're in this together). Yin and Yang are millennia old. Nothing has changed. We're just stuck in a politically correct limbo right now. I think you know the feeling.
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IceArdor: You've got your head screwed on, man. It's good that you don't believe all of it. First of all, you're probably not Norwegian. Second, you probably have your own way of expressing these things. But man, I like you. Because you're being true with this. And you're right - gender equality is a reality only when you stop seeing the man or the woman sitting in front of you and you start seeing the human being. And then you build the gender on top of that. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!
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I'm probably stepping on your toes, guys. About bloody time. Was it good for you too?
By EivindFS, # 5. October 2007, 22:04:15
Fortunately or unfortunately for my sins, I work in a University (as a cognitive neuroscientist). All human groups have a tribal slang (my tribe is no different). It is not meant to be elitist, it is just the rap we use to be more precise. If you want it shorter'n'sweeter:
Gender is messily made in the brain (both before birth, and strongly influenced by social expectations afterwards). Your belief it is purely binary is a fallacy in objective scientific terms.
Maybe you believe the mind and brain has no effect on humans, that their personality mystically floats above their pineal gland. But as I assume you've taken headache tablets or other drugs that affect the brain (thus you have some evidence of who you are being influenced there), I'm stating there is great variations in the gender differences in brains that sit in male and female bodies. Not all male brains are equally the same, nor equally different to female brains. There *are* some biological differences on average (men have larger brain mass, women have more dense packing of the brain folds), but among men and women there is huge variation. So as among men and women there is variation, though that variation would be even greater were it not for society's well recognised effects.
Heh, nice. But you know what? Just because I use word X and you use word Y, it says nothing about the emotional investment each has made when expressing it. I can be "fucking passionate" *and* use the word epigenetic!
Nope. They have an immensely rewarding and enjoyable experience. They explore their 'masculinity' (infrequently), just as they explore their 'femininity' (more frequently), just as they explore their humanity (mostly). They are simply not slaves to their gender.
Am I scared? Not about my gender, but I am about other parts of my life. I think it is is natural to be scared and unsure. Will I make a good father, a good partner, a good workmate...
If I may reflect some of your pop-psychology back. You are pretty insecure with who you are which is why you immediately attack other's positions instead of exploring their possibilities. You beat your chest, and say fucking a lot as if that means you feel more, that it makes you more "genuine". What are *you* trying to show?
You can be both passionate *and* open. And try dressing as a woman one day, you might just loosen up a bit[1]. You must surely have some "feminine" characterstics; do you ever live them, explore them and let them mix within you?
My Dad has/had no pretensions to academia ever. Indeed he want(ed/s) me to become a gigolo (good pay and lots of free time
Ah you finally understand how false binary-gender is created!!! Parents reinforce gender differences just as they were themselves taught. Boys must do this, girls something else. Girl babies are dressed in different colours, given different toys. No space to just "be". Then they start watching cartoons and films and the rush of cardboard characters all macho or girly flood into their growing brains, making the gap larger and larger. The variations originally in their minds are stamped and suppressed into conformity, through rigid expectation[2].
Ah, sorry, we are not allowed to question, to inquire, or to think? That masculine/feminine are clearly defined polar opposite caricatures is not in question; mapping all men into the former and all women into the latter is what is being questioned. Questioned not because of PC, but because enquiring into human nature is fascinating. Many other humans who have done so have broadly come to the conclusions that brains vary greatly, humans vary greatly, and social conformity tends to stifle that variation. Why are you so scared to explore variations in gender, to question your assumptions?
☯ is not a static binary opposite, but represents symbolic opposites that can and do move (day turns to night, an empty river becomes a full one). Note that changes require transitions.
It is like trying to use ☯ to justify why America is "pure good" and Iran is "pure evil". Such binary thinking makes it easy to think about a problem or issue, but it is often utterly misleading. *That* type of poor thought leads to a real cataclysm of war and hatred in our world that makes the petty claims of a small band of feminists utterly irrelevant.
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[1] My partner is from the Canary Islands, and when it is Carneval thay have great fucking parties (dance until morning for many days on end without needing drugs!). Everyone wears fancy dress, and most men from the butchest man mountain to the girliest girly-man dress as women for the night. They are not all "fucking scared", but they do know how to have fun!
[2] Things are more complex, but you seem to be unwilling to engage in that so I'll keep it polemic.
By non-troppo, # 6. October 2007, 19:28:06
Anyway, I love your answer, dude. It's real. I was afraid all you wanted was a heady, academic debate leading nowhere. I don't like those. I've spent far too much time in the death process of intellectual comforts.
A lot of what you say about me is true. I AM insecure and a bit of a control freak. It's an adopted childhood survival mechanism that I'm working to get rid of. What you may not know is that my life is basically built on feminine values, which I'm sure is good fuel for the pop-psychologist in *you* :-) Now, I'm breaking free from that prison - and I'm gonna have to step on some toes in the process. And that's why I'm attacking you. I kind of want to fight. With the primal masculine force waking up as I'm opening up to my own vulnerability, there's a power of expression there that I need to experiment with. Do you think me uncivilized?
Anyway, my misreading of you is equalled by your misreading of me. You think I'm speaking of gender as a "binary opposite". I think no such thing. The very definition of gender has nothing to do with the outer characteristics, but with inner realities that are composed of a large number of variables. Sex and gender are as such quite different. Sex is a binary opposite, gender is not.
Gender is composed of masculinity and femininity put together in an endless series of different permutations. You can deconstruct it into material realities of brain and biology, but I think you're willing to go along with me on the first one. A person of is MORE LIKELY to have more of the sexual energy/essence (masculine/feminine) that corresponds with his/her sex. Hence, most men are more masculine, most women more feminine. The ONLY thing I want to communicate is that the climate in the Western world today makes most men behave in more feminine ways than is their true nature and most women behave in a more masculine way than is theirs.
Basically, the contemporary idealization of sameness of the sexes - not equality but sameness, leads to such ridiculous things as giving boys dolls to play with. Somehow we came to the conclusion that this was the right thing to do. But we didn't come there through real, authentic exploration of the felt realities we live in, but of intellectual and rational analysis. It's a head game fuelled by political correctness. But most boys will tear the limbs right off that doll! And they would much rather play with fire engines or giant killer robots. Sexual polarity is vividly expressed in us from an early age. And then society starts neutering the boys and hardening the girls because it's just how it's done. This leads to widespread depression, confusion and endless battles between the sexes. A battle which is currently lead by women, contrasting the historical hegemony of men.
There's no denying, however, that most people in the world today are so blocked by fear that their capacity for love is extremely limited. I'm working real hard on this with my lover, letting myself be vulnerable so I can love powerfully and openly. Because the actual possibilities of intimacy are so far beyond what most people today think. And, as a man, unless we can penetrate her soul and take her open with such passionate love that she forgets herself in her complete and total abandon, we're really not doing our job. Every feminine woman wants that. Every masculine man wants that. And until we get it, we're still gonna fight our battle of wills, based largely on fear and false ideas. Understand that if you are indeed one of the few men who are more feminine, or more balanced, by design, none if this applies to you - and is quite likely to provoke you.
Let me end by thanking you for your genuine interest in the human psyche. I see you have a far more scientific approach than I do - as mine is based basically on concepts of energy, spiritual force, universal polarities of yin and yang (yes, masculinity and femininity are powerful universal principles, polar opposites, just as much as personalities of human beings), and authentic sexual expression than analysis of the brain, hormones and such things. They're a HUGE part of the equation - and they interest me loads, but for the time being I'll let you handle those.
And by the way, *I* think that you will be/are those things - a good father, partner and colleague. Whatever that's worth.
By EivindFS, # 6. October 2007, 21:13:27
Do you need to break that or, just learn to realise it, poke at it and work with it in a new way?
No, I love your honesty and passion. You are growing and exploring the texture of your humanity, that is beautiful. Thank you for sharing.
Equalled indeed
I'm with you here...
I still see quite a lot of stasis actually. Looking out of my window on a Saturday night I see lots of men drunk after going to football (Arsenal stadium is close to my home), few women there at all. For women I give you an example: body hair. Adverts for women's shaving products *never* show a woman really shaving... They show a woman shaving an already shaved leg :crazy:!!!. The fear to show masculine traits (normal body hair) is so strong advertising for women refuses to show what is natural. My partner once shaved one leg and left her other to grow
To argue against myself and support your case, I'd say the amount of heavy drinking among women has shot up in the UK. They are apparently competing with men when going out...
I think it is hard to homogenise this. some people say gender is constructed entirely, some say it is fully biologically distinct, and some mix social and biological factors together in a plethora of ratios. I don't think a decision has been made yet. If you go into a toy shop (or look at Toy sales), there is still a lot of gendered toys. Friends of mine who have children have not forced their boys to play with dolls, but have not refused them to play with if they wanted (as would have traditionally occurred). That is *very* different. One forces decisions, the other opens options. I always remember Allison, a girl in my Junior school who all the boys were frightened of; she was strong and brave. She was still a girl, but enjoyed playing with boys. Of the boys in my class, we all were different, some preferred rough-and-tumble (child psychological description of boy-play), but some really didn't.
This is not my experience. i wonder if the UK and Norway are just different. The UK is quite progressive elsewhere (immigration for example).
This interests me a lot. When i spoke of friends who play at being other genders (drag-kings was the example I gave above), actually their internal stereotypes can still be strong even if they live their life happily outside of that. Personally I tend to be attracted to partners who are not at the polar extremes of the gender spectrum. A woman who mixes some feminine and masculine (with lots of shared genderless humanity) I find very irresistible.
I would self-identify with that. I actually feel quite feminine, though my female friends say I can be strongly masculine. Going back to the Freudian parental link, my Dad is pretty masculine (he is Italian!), but I always felt different to that. He was always open and let me express myself how i wanted, never a judgement. I never felt pressure to be something I wasn't.
You said you had strong feminine links; how are you going to balance that with who you want to be?
Thank you! I think from your openness, your passion and your exploration you are well on the way to getting where *you* need to be too.
Take care Eivind, with keenly felt appreciation and a (manly) hug!
By non-troppo, # 8. October 2007, 01:20:13
About the prison thing - I'm breaking free not in the sense of getting rid of the feminine, but by magnifying the masculine. They're both integral to a whole human being.
Your mention of the advertising for women brings up an interesting point. Have you noticed how violence has been increasing on screens worldwide for the last several decades? Say if you had a set amount of masculine and feminine energy to distribute in the world. When the masculine goes out of men, you need to channel it elsewhere - so you channel it into women and the entertainment industry to maintain energetic equilibrium. I believe the same thing applies to women. When the feminine goes out of women, it must be channeled elsewhere. We have channeled it into obsession with surface characteristics, shaving hairless legs, bigger boobs, fantastically styled hair and beautiful makeup. And while these women do for the most part look great (the ones who aren't plasticy), they are less feminine on the inside than they used to be.
Do you get my drift here? When sexual energy goes out of whack in society and seeps out of its "original containers", it will be channeled elsewhere. And that's why I will argue that the increased play on sex and the increased violence is nothing but a display of this ideal of sexual sameness having been taken too far. You did notice how it all started happening when feminism, postmodernism and "political correctness" came along (green in Spiral Dynamics)?
I don't have time to answer everything point for point, but greatly appreciate your comment on my path. I'd like to think that positive things are going on.
A hug back to you too. I hugged a lot of men this weekend actually - part two of a three-part weekend course series called "Living masculinity". Awesome stuff. Raw and powerful.
Eivind
By EivindFS, # 9. October 2007, 21:07:59