Under construction

I personally like the new location of the security badges. They're definitely more useful there. Another advantage of their being on the left side of the address field is that the favicon that usually rests there is gone; it was always rather redundant being there as it was also on the corresponding tab.

Personally, I don't like how the badge expands and contracts, but as long as opera:config#userprefs|showfullurl is available I can't complain much.

I don't mind the expand/contract design, but the one thing that does bother me is the case for "Web". The others make sense here, but "Web" is just pointless.

Sure, "Insecure" is a little scary sounding, but couldn't something better than "Web" be used there?

Well, I've been thinking about it for a while and this is difficult for two reasons:

1. I think the case for "Web" should simply show no text and retract for a minimalistic approach. however, this isn't really possible now in Opera 11 from a design perspective since that would be the exception that would reveal the newly hidden by design protocol. In that sense, it seems best to be consistent as it is now.

2. What word can you replace "Web" with when the best option is actually "". But seriously, I can't think of any better examples at the moment. I'll keep it in the back of my mind and let you know if I ever come up with some thing.

..after checking that chart again I tested the "Changed URL" case. That is cool (and smart)! Whats also cool is that restoring to the original address also restores the security indicator. Well done.

The badge needs to have some kind of text, because it would be big and empty otherwise. "Web" makes sense.

Originally posted by haavard:

The badge needs to have some kind of text, because it would be big and empty otherwise. "Web" makes sense.

That is why I said that it couldn't be removed due to the design. While it makes more sense than other labels that I can think of, it doesn't seem necessary to specify this case to me other than to fill the space created by the new design. Previous versions of Opera didn't stamp "Web" on the right of the address box where the other security warnings were and thats my point. it wasn't necessary then and wouldn't be now if some other more useful way of filling this protocol space could be used.

It keeps things consistent, and is more informative than a badge without text.

So we agree that its only there for consistency with the other states.

No, I said it was there because it's consistent with other badges, not having it there would leave a large empty space, and having text there is more informative to the user.

Originally posted by haavard:

No, I said it was there because it's consistent with other badges, not having it there would leave a large empty space, and having text there is more informative to the user.

And thats what I've been saying above all along. I never said it should be a blank space, in fact I said that it should not be a blank space. That said, I think the whole "space" should simply be removed and let the current web icon symbolize web mode, hiding the "http://" protocol behind it for consistency in design with the new address bar. Thats more like how other browsers show this mode, in that they only waste space for secure/trusted modes.

Neither Firefox, Chrome, Safari nor IE display a textual security indicator for non secure/trusted pages. Nor did previous versions of Opera. Those browsers don't seem to find it necessary to add a bit of clutter to the address bar for this or any similar regular-web badge.

No, we are not saying the same thing. You are twisting (or ignoring) my words.

The badge needs to have extra space in order to cover the protocol, and to keep the URL from jumping around. There is no wasted space or clutter, because the "Web" text keeps it consistent with other badges, and adds useful information to a space that would otherwise be empty (it would need to be there regardless, because it needs to cover the protocol).

Originally posted by haavard:

No, we are not saying the same thing. You are twisting (or ignoring) my words.

The only part I said we agreed on there was that the space for Web should not be empty while maintaining the same width...leaving an empty gray spacer covering the protocol. I never suggested you thought Web should be removed or any other differences for that matter. If there is any twisting of words or ignoring, its not on my end.

Originally posted by haavard:

The badge needs to have extra space in order to cover the protocol, and to keep the URL from jumping around.

And I already said that I understand that it helps for consistency in hiding the protocol as the other cases do.

That doesn't mean that a cleaner approach isn't possible. Maybe you don't think its clutter, but I do. I don't think that either of our ideas for how this should be done account for how the Opera user base as a whole thinks it should be done, so theres no use going on about a difference in opinion.

I think that there has to be a better way of handling this case cause theres always room for improvement in any design, otherwise the address box wouldn't have changed in the first place, right?

Originally posted by kyleabaker:

Sure, "Insecure" is a little scary sounding, but couldn't something better than "Web" be used there?

Originally posted by haavard:

It keeps things consistent, and is more informative than a badge without text.

I'm in a web browser and it's telling me I'm on the web. I'm not sure how informative that is. Web doesn't even begin to have any relation to security... but neither does Turbo. For all intents and purposes, the word "web" is just an innocuous word that isn't the empty string. It does maintain consistency, but it provides no value to the end user. A sticker on the sidewalk that reads "sidewalk" provides infinitely more information (literally) than not having that sticker, but is that a reason to start labeling sidewalks?

"Wait, I'm on the web?! Really? With my WEB browser? Thanks for that morsel of information, Captain Obvious. Any other groundbreaking details that you'd like to illuminate?"

Originally posted by haavard:

it would need to be there regardless, because it needs to cover the protocol

It sounds like you're hinting at technical impossibility or some insurmountable task... neither of which I'm sure are the case. Maybe it needs to be there if the devs want to reuse the current code, but I, without seeing a drop of code, know that it is not impossible to remove the gray space (shrinking down to fav icon size) and remove the protocol if you so desire. I'm not debating that perhaps it would be more difficult and more work/code, but very few things are impossible and this doesn't sound like one of them. So saying it "needs to be there" doesn't seem 100% correct.

Originally posted by kyleabaker:

Maybe you don't think its clutter, but I do.

+1

Originally posted by kyleabaker:

The only part I said we agreed on there was that the space for Web should not be empty while maintaining the same width...leaving an empty gray spacer covering the protocol.

I believe having nothing there. Not an empty gray space but just enough room for the fav icon would make a more drastic and potentially eye-catching change going from nothing to "secure" or a non-existent box to a box red box that says "warning" or whatever it could say. From nothing to something is more drastic than wider and a color change in my opinion. And drastic, attention-gathering changes seems like what you want in this case.

EDIT: Web could potentially make more sense if Opera made distinctions between internet and intranet, but it currently does not. If that were added, "web" still wouldn't be the best way to describe that.

Indeed, there has to be some text there because the badge covers the protocol, so it needs to be wider than just an icon. Leaving it blank wouldn't be very useful. It is now consistent, informative, and serves an important purpose.

I suspect that those who don't want the badge to be this wide want the protocol to be shown by default. I don't see us showing the protocol again by default any time soon. I guess it would take a security issue or something, but right now, most people are safer than they used to be (because people think that HTTPS means that the connection is secure).

So in conclusion, the "Web" badge is the way it is because it needs to. It serves a purpose, prevents the URL from jumping around when you try to edit it, maintains consistency, and informs the user. I have not seen any convincing arguments to the contrary.

I'm personally not completely against having text there. It's more useful to a casual user than "http://www." which essentially says exactly the same thing as that simple "Web" that's being argued about. There might be a better word that could be used in its place, but I really can't think of any offhand. I just wouldn't like to use it that way myself. I don't much care for how it moves around, especially when the badge expands in size from the simple icon on Speed Dial to Web or whatever else. It just makes me attempt to look at the address bar to see if something's wrong. I'm not sure why, but that's what occurs. With that said as long as Opera provides an easy way to show the full URL in the address bar I'm not too obliged to argue against the behavior. The setting's not exactly buried; it's in preferences -> advanced -> browsing and in opera:config. The setting also has the added benefit of reducing the security badge to a simple favicon at all times.

One thing I don't think has been discussed are the semantics behind where this is used. The word "Web" pretty much states you're viewing a Web page which in turn means you're reading a hypertext document on the World Wide Web. However, if you view a FTP folder listing in Opera you're not viewing anything on the World Wide Web. You're viewing a browser-generated HTML document on your computer containing data which was obtained from using an FTP protocol. Shouldn't there be an FTP badge for this case? I'm not stating it's my opinion that there should be one. I'm just asking.

On a very unrelated note... I miss being able to use HTML in comments.

Originally posted by Khadgar:

One thing I don't think has been discussed are the semantics behind where this is used. The word "Web" pretty much states you're viewing a Web page which in turn means you're reading a hypertext document on the World Wide Web. However, if you view a FTP folder listing in Opera you're not viewing anything on the World Wide Web. You're viewing a browser-generated HTML document on your computer containing data which was obtained from using an FTP protocol. Shouldn't there be an FTP badge for this case? I'm not stating it's my opinion that there should be one. I'm just asking.

That's an oversight I had not heretofore considered. I have full URIs turned on as you do, so I don't look at the icon unless it's different from the standard globe---in this way it's actually pretty effective. But if you're not seeing protocols, to label FTP as the Web does seem misleading, indeed. file:/// has its own icon; why not ftp://?