WARNING: Post could offend/upset...Graphic Medical Content!
Tuesday, February 19, 2008 3:13:22 PM
I was on Opera a little last night but was knocked off so much, I just got disgusted and shut down.
That man with the headband again.."We're fixing it, go visit our home page while you're waiting."
MATTHEW.....I DID see your post BEFORE I went to the dentist. I had signed on for a little distraction and got more than I bargained for..hehe!!
It was all in fun, because I know you would never write something that could cause a person to go...
OVER THE EDGE!!!!!!! LOL
Seriously, I was tortured in a dentist chair some time back, It was an awful experience. A well known, respected, maxiofacial surgeon, with more degrees than his walls could hold, introduced me to torture.
I was given an IV drip, but with only Lactated Ringers, as was discovered later. I was having a molar extracted/pulled and had previously paid &1700.00 for the procedure, which was supposed to include the extraction, anesthesia and after care.
I felt nothing, as in, not being relaxed a little, nothing! He also did not give me novocaine to numb the area. And when I saw him starting to go for my mouth, I firmly said, STOP!
I was then restrained, hands first and later, feet.
I told him, do not pull/yank because I can feel everything. He replied...
"You'll Be Just Fine"!!!!
Then I felt a contraption being forced into my mouth and I was now unable to close it.
I tried to get up, but of course there was a steel wall with TOOLS jammed up against my neck, and when I tried to push it aside, someone, (and I didn't see who it was because they (?) threw a white sheet over my face) placed a mask on my face and put pressure on my forehead. I assumed it was 'gas' and when I tried to remove it, of course the restaints prevented me from doing so.
Now, I knew there were '3' people in this room, but never hearing a word spoken, except from Dr. Evil, and then, just a 'couple one-liners'!
This 'MONSTER' proceeded to yank out my back bottom molar, all the while listening to the, crunch, crunch, crunch, and trying to free my hands so I can choke the LIFE OUT OF HIM!!!!!
I even tried to 'kick' him, trying to pull my legs up, but of course I couldn't.
The pain was unbearable. Just terrifying.
After 15-20 minutes, which seemed/felt like hours, he left the room, slamming the door behind him.
I felt the restraints being loosened on my hands, and my legs were now free, also.
Another door, slammed. Whoever was left in there with me, was now gone.
I got up from the chair, grabbed my purse and proceeded down the hallway to find Dr. Evil so I could 'thank him, properly'!?!?!?!?
The office was empty except for a receptionist, who knew nothing of anyone's whereabouts.
I called out for my sister, who came with me, as I was supposed to be put under and I would have needed a driver. She ran to me, saw my mouth, my face and screamed out for the Dentist. And by this time, everything was a blur and I was not able to see my way down the hall to follow my sister because they had rubbed something over my eyes and they were burning and swollen.???
My sister called the police to explain, in short, that a crime had been committed and they met us to take my statement.
The officer called the paramedics and I was brought to the ER for treatment.
When Dr. Evil was questioned, he told the officer, officerS by this time, that I was given an anesthetic, was very comfortable and that all went well. The officer looked at him and asked."Doc, have you seen your patients face, because it looks like she was in a bar room brawl!!!
(I didn't even have gauze in my mouth afterwards and the blood was pouring everywhere, until the paramedics came.)
He refused to answer anymore questions without an attorney present. Mine (attorney) showed up in the ER and we went from there.
There was no mediation, no lawyers bickering back and forth...the judge who heard the charges from the District Attorney found sufficient evidence for this matter to go to trial. It was now considered...CRIMINAL!
Months passed and the trial began. By this time I was physically healed, but still emotionally traumatized.
The Judge and the jurors were not only appalled when viewing the photos of my face, neck, wrists and ankles, some became physically ill and others were openly sobbing.
Dr. Evil's attorney tried to plea bargain the case out, claiming he was under extreme pressure to lose his liscene (GO FIGURE????) and even the ole..'temporary insanity' plea.
It was a No Go. He was found guilty on numerous charges ranging from criminal negligence to obstructing justice...not to mention, blatantly lying under oath.
I didn't ask for money, although I was offered a settlement, with the stipulation that I would not be interviewed and that I could never discuss my experience. I refused of course, and asked only that my medical expenses be provided for.
My Request: That he never be allowed, be given the opportunity, to ever abuse another human being.
He no longer practices medicine and was given a prison sentence!
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
So, theres my horror story regarding a visit to a 'Madman's Lair' and I would post the pictures, but they are too graphic, even more terrifying than the pictures taken after my '96 car accident, when a drunk hit me at a high rate of speed and flipped my car...quite a few times.
Forwarding to present: Friday afternoon, my experience at the dentist was a pleasant one, but not before a very long consultation and permission to have my visit videotaped.
They were wonderful and I would highly recommend her to anyone who has been severely traumatized by any dentist.
I wasn't the first this happened to...
And, I won't be the last!













scott cummingI_ArtMan # Thursday, February 21, 2008 7:43:37 AM
Jill JilleeBean # Thursday, February 21, 2008 4:11:17 PM
I believe he was insane. Something evil inside of him. And just like when emergency room doctors make mistakes and you'll hear that there is not ONE nurse...NO ONE that will speak up, in fear of losing their jobs.
I've seen/experienced so much in my life Scott, and I've come to the conclusion that there just isn't an explanation for some things.
Try that we may to understand, there will be situations that our minds just will not be able to grasp, because we live on 'one side' and they live on the 'other.'
Something happens to the mind, be it from pressure, the everyday stressors that catch up with some and the overflow has nowhere to go...I have so many theories, but not one explanation.
I will tell you one thing though, Dr. Evil when in court and, when my attorney was displaying the photos of my injuries, he became physically turned on.
It was scary being in the same room as him.
On a lighter note...have a wonderful day!!!!
Much peace to you..Jillee:)
scott cummingI_ArtMan # Thursday, February 21, 2008 8:15:18 PM
Matthewnoah counte # Thursday, February 21, 2008 11:21:46 PM
I suppose a criminal conviction is some consolation, but let's be honest: that kind of trauma isn't assuaged by conviction.
I'm sorry you had to go through such hell - and sorry too that you saw my post before you went. Of course, my post was all in fun, but anyone who's had an experience like yours might feel badly about the cavalier treatment of the pain dentists can cause.
Jill JilleeBean # Friday, February 22, 2008 2:37:09 PM
And regarding that vacation he should have taken...I don't believe it would have made a difference because evil doesn't go on vacation. It lies dormant and festers then exposes its ugly face when the need arises.
I understand what you're saying though Scott, and there are times when just getting away from it all will lesson the intense pain of pressure that we all need to release to ensure our egos remain healthy.
But here, this situation, we have a deranged individual with an unhealthy ego, with ID working overtime. So, all of those beautiful and powerful little endorphons, gave him the natural high he needed for evil, instead of for a normal thinking process, normal stimulation for feelings of happiness, love, etc.
I'm relieved to say that he did finally...
Get To Go On Vacation!!!!!
I appreciate your input on this. It really helps to talk about it.
You're my buddy!!!
Jillee:heart:
Jill JilleeBean # Friday, February 22, 2008 3:22:04 PM
I wanted to know why I was experiencing these symptoms when all the while, functioning normally, working a full time job and caring for others. Well, found out it was from being traumatized...PTSD.
I refused to take medication and I worked through it, telling my therapist that I am stronger than what this man did to me.
I am not a victim. I am a survivor.
So, to make a long story short, I still, from time to time, will get stabbinbg pains from out of nowhere, in my face and lower jaw and I just keep doing what I'm doing and it goes away.
The nightmares can be pretty brutal. Once I awoke and saw him standing over my bed. I was told THIS was a hallucination. I just closed my eyes and said.."you're not real and you can't hurt me anymore...GO AWAY." And he did.
A note to anyone suffering from PTSD...I am not making light of this disorder and not everyone can handle/work through this on their own. Many need medication.
But, for me personally, what I've done...works.
Everyone is different.
I lost a husband due to PTSD. Came back from VN and, well, it was just awful. And he took his life.
His horrors I can not imagine, because I did not go through what he did.
I want to thank you Matthew and Scott for commenting and for also, listening to me ramble. It helps more than you'll ever know.
(And, of course your post (Death Dentist) was all in fun, and I have never thought otherwise.) You are a good person, Matthew.
Thank You, my Friend. Wishes for a peaceful and stress free day!!
Hugs...Jillee:heart:
scott cummingI_ArtMan # Saturday, February 23, 2008 1:47:24 AM
scott cummingI_ArtMan # Saturday, February 23, 2008 7:23:36 PM
i tag you... please come to my page and read the rules.
this is how we treat our friends... gulp.
Jill JilleeBean # Sunday, February 24, 2008 2:53:10 AM
scott cummingI_ArtMan # Sunday, February 24, 2008 5:37:20 AM
Jill JilleeBean # Sunday, February 24, 2008 5:55:22 AM
John ..... (Loku) lokutus-prime lokutus-prime # Sunday, February 24, 2008 8:37:17 AM
Best wishes,
lokutus
Jill JilleeBean # Sunday, February 24, 2008 3:31:30 PM
But, that's not going to stop me. I feel it's important and would benefit others, and if just one person was spared a living nightmare, I would feel much peace. It may sound strange, but I almost feel an obligation to complete it.
My business has grown this year and I've been able to hire a few helpers, so for the first time in a long time, I would have the space and quiet to finish my book.
I was fascinated by the picture of those implants over on Scott's blog. I had heard of them and they were even offered to me, but I decided against them.
Toothaches are just awful. Pain in the mouth affects us in so many ways, in our daily lives. I sure hope he is soon pain free and someone is able to help him. He is a 'keeper'!!!! And 'MY BUDDY'!!
Enjoy your Sunday! It sure is a beautiful day here in Florida. Sunday is 'old movie day' here but I'm tempted to do some gardening!
Much peace...Jillee
Naomi CultureSurfer # Sunday, February 24, 2008 5:18:25 PM
What an absolutely horrifying experience. It sounds like something out of a horror flick, but of course it happened to you in real life. I am so sorry something so horrendous happened to someone like you. Kudos to you for making sure this jerk got locked up & can't hurt anyone anymore. It is absolutely unbelievable to me that people like this exist in this world. I guess this is why people like you exists, to balance out the scales a bit. It's incredible to me how much time and effort good people have to spend fighting the problems/evils of the world, but I guess that's how the world works.
I adore my dentist. He did a great job ripping out my wisdom teeth (no jokes about my lack of wisdom since then, please).
Naomi
John ..... (Loku) lokutus-prime lokutus-prime # Sunday, February 24, 2008 6:21:48 PM
Sigh, That's so very true in itself... and I would like to add (paraphrasing Burke) "All it takes for evil to triumph is for people to stand by and do nothing"
Regards,
Starphoenix # Sunday, February 24, 2008 11:18:50 PM
You go, girl.
Jill JilleeBean # Monday, February 25, 2008 3:14:56 AM
For the most part, I have put him to rest.
I want NO part of him touching me, in anyway!
And regarding those wisdom teeth..LOL, there are no visible scars...You wear your 'cape' proudly!!!
You are 'Top Notch' in all ways!!!!!
Peace my friend!!
Jill JilleeBean # Monday, February 25, 2008 3:25:28 AM
Yes Loku, we need to get/stay involved...in all ways!!!
Thank You!!
Jill JilleeBean # Monday, February 25, 2008 3:36:46 AM
This experience has shined yet another light on the fact that we can be so vulnerable in areas where we ordinarily wouldn't think twice about.
Much peace!
Loiscakkleberrylane # Thursday, February 28, 2008 7:13:05 PM
I had a root canal & crown several years ago. The dentist's assistant, lifted the lid of the trash can, put something in and without changing her gloves, asked me to open my mouth. I'm convinced that she had no idea why I insisted she change the gloves, she seemed very surprised that I would ask her to do that.
The job he did was a mess, I eventually had to go to another dentist to scrape off adhesive etc. I still have trouble with it.
Now, for the reason why.... he wasn't even a dentist!
A couple of years later, I saw in the newspaper that he was found out to not have any dental education whatsoever. The man committed suicide after the story came out.
Jill JilleeBean # Friday, February 29, 2008 4:15:14 AM
One (my MONSTER) who was qualified/educated, abused me both physically and psychologically, with the 'remains of HIS day' leaving remnants of permanant nerve damage and emotional scars.
And another (MONSTER) who was not qualified/educated, not even a dentist, with the 'remains of HIS day' leaving you fearful of any future visits to ensure proper dental hygiene, but has also left you prepared to do the necessary research before ever placing your trust in another professional.
I am relieved to hear though, that this ordeal did not cause you to seek an attorney or further medical treatment, except what you've stated, having to be treated by another dentist.
I wonder how he was finally found out? Do you know?
I'm sorry that you also, had an unpleasant experience. And since sharing of 'my' nightmare, speaking with others I have met through the legal system, it is not as uncommon as I once thought it was.
Although my situation made the 'news' there are still some that are willing to place complete and unconditional trust in their health care professionals.
And because of the outcome, taking his life, I have to think about his family, if any, and how long he pretended, leading a double life as he did.
Thanks for sharing what you went through, Lois. I have to wonder too, how many others there are?
Loiscakkleberrylane # Friday, February 29, 2008 3:33:37 PM
1974 - noticed a "funny" mirror in the examining room - it was a one way window, on the other side was the doctor speaking to a male patient. I didn't undress as she (the doctor) had requested. I was able to see into the examining room when later I was in her office.
My dad called the Canadian Medical Association, but they said I was probably imagining it.
1979 - I was pregnant and the doctor kept on my about my weight gain, which wasn't really much, he insisted I was cheating on the diet sheet he gave me and I told him I was only eating about 1/4 of what was recommended. Consequence was the baby died two weeks before he was born.
2001 - Went to the doctor with a lump under my arm. No examination, nothing, just pronouced that it was cancer, very bad, maybe 6 months to live (turned out to be Cat Scratch Fever and I'm still here)
I could go on, but these are the highlights.
My daughter is a doctor/pharmacist, so needless to say, I rely on her pretty much exclusively.
Jill JilleeBean # Saturday, March 1, 2008 3:36:42 AM
there is also a law,
(which of course is not enforced and you know, the blame/responsibility lies with us because there's strength in numbers and no one wants to be the first to initiate and/or demand that we be made aware and also be provided an authorization/privacy from stating we are giving our permission for said treatment to be observed and even videotaped)
...which protects us, to ensure our right to privacy. During a seven hour procedure in a teaching hospital (long, long story) that I underwent 8 years ago, I did allow the procedure to be viewed and videotaped for teaching purposes.
(re: 1974) Your situation was very different. And wrong!!!
(re: 1979) I'm so sorry Lois, you lost your little one. If you're comfortable sharing about it, may I ask what the cause of death was, listed on the death certificate?
(re: 2001) Why on earth didn't they biopsy it? Are you sure that 'that' doctor was legally practicing medicine?
'Do' go on, Lois! Knowledge is power and by sharing this information, it can only benefit others reading it.
How fortunate for you, that your daughter is in the medical field. I would never take a medication (and have never) prescribed to me without first speaking with a Pharmacist in detail and also following up by doing my own research. And that is due to reactions to meds given when they should not have been, where they did not interact well with meds I was already taking for other reasons!!!
Thanks so much Lois and please feel free to keep your 'weird medical care' experiences coming!!!
Starphoenix # Saturday, March 1, 2008 4:16:58 AM
Being informed about your medical condition, your prescribed medications, and even your own reactions to certain medications is certainly the intelligent way to seek medical treatment. In the cases you and Lois have described, though, being informed and willing to speak up may have saved your lives!
Scary, isn't it? Of course, you know what they call the person who graduates absolute last in his/her medical class, don't you? They call this person "Doctor."
Matthewnoah counte # Saturday, March 1, 2008 4:59:26 AM
Jill JilleeBean # Saturday, March 1, 2008 5:02:56 AM
A friend of mine left her appointment bewildered and I asked her what the prognosis was? Opinion? Tests being ordered?
She said her doctor didn't really tell her too much and said also that he would let her know if he felt things were getting worse.
HUGH??????I was floored and asked her what on earth was wrong with her? Why she didn't ask questions. She had a list prepared before going. She's been so sick. Fainting spells, just so many symptoms.
I'm not a doctor but I know the first tests I would have ordered would be complete blood work. And if he wasn't able to offer a diagnosis after further testing, I would ask to be referred to a Neurologist.
This is serious!!!!
I just don't understand people sometimes, and even people I think I know.
They'll ask more questions going through the Dunkin Donuts drive-through, but yet hesitate when their very lives are at stake!!!!????
Frustrating! And yes..STUPID things!! And Stupid and DEADLY mistakes!!!
Why,(and if you can answer, please do,) are people so afraid to question their doctors? Is their self-esteem that poor that they are so easily intimidated by a piece of paper, a title....We ALL have a title and it's..VERY SPECIAL PERSON!!!
I just don't get it!
I've lost family members and the biggest part of my life, a huge chunk of my heart to medical neglect, and it's going to happen to others and over and over until people wake up to the realization that this life is all we get, on earth, so why are we making such foolish choices when it comes to our well being?
Sorry to ramble, I just get so disgusted sometimes!!
Thanks for your input, Star!
Matthewnoah counte # Saturday, March 1, 2008 5:31:16 AM
Jill JilleeBean # Saturday, March 1, 2008 5:34:17 AM
He meets all of my needs. Treating the physical and the psycholgical, because one cannot be tended to and the other left not.
They happen to be connected. (I'm doing more than rolling my eyes right now)
Like any good doctor, he takes the time to HEAR me when I go for a visit. I keep NOTHING from him, as how could that benefit me?
Common Sense!
But, I've had my share of morons and find it hard to believe that these same morons are the ones complaining they can't afford malpractice insurance because it is too high!!!??
Gee, I wonder why???
Matthew writes:
"If you aren't a partner in your medical care, you can't blame your doctor. It's your job to tell him or her what's going on, and to ask for more information when they seem to be in left field. No one knows better how you feel than you do - and that is vital information in your care."
Although I agree with you, but to a certain extent. Yes, it is 'plain and simple' common sense to know how to communicate your feelings and symptoms to your health care professional so they are able to administer the best care to you.
But, what if someone is not capable of communicating or pin pointing exactly how their feeling. As in, I just feel bad, or I feel like someone drained all of the blood out of me. Or, I have no energy and I'm getting hot flashes.
These are all very general symptoms and they are also, all very common.
My first husband was also a doctor, so I guess I heard it all and then some. (that I didn't need to)
Trying to stay focused here Matthew and on the point, but this is flu season, well here it is, anyway. So, when 9 out of 10 people go to the doctor with complaints of 'shortness of breath', dizziness' 'weak' and not able to keep food down....most doctors will not look any further and will prescribe medication for the...flu!!!
Now, 3 out of these same 10, do not have the flu. Nothing even close to it.
The point I'm trying to make, and I've heard doctors speak the same way and that's frightening; unless a patient has good insurance OR has the money, the tests NEEDED to be ordered will be NOT because insurance will not cover it, so they are wasting their time to even suggest them.
There is a grey area here.
Peace
The average person does not know why they are so sick, if they really are...very sick.
Jill JilleeBean # Saturday, March 1, 2008 5:43:06 AM
But I know what you're saying because a friend of mine just went and she is so sick and she said she tried to tell him how she was feeling (although I would have not just tried) and even though I was irritated with her for not going into more detail, his bedside manner was such, that he cut her short while speaking.
So NOW, it's time to look for another doctor!!!
Matthewnoah counte # Saturday, March 1, 2008 5:44:08 AM
Doctors frighten people, but for my money they are of no more value than the trashman who picks up the detritis from your house before it turns into something that will make you sick. Both play vital roles in our well-being.
Jill JilleeBean # Saturday, March 1, 2008 6:04:30 AM
I just feel badly for those who are so ill and place such trust in their primary physicians, and it's not only trust, it's fear.
My Father even said once, when going to see another doctor, as he was so disgusted with the crude bedside manner of his, and for so long, and believed there was something wrong that his Dr. was not detecting, "what if he finds out I saw another doctor for a second opinion?"
I said, who cares, it's your right, Dad!!!
Even my own precious, beautiful and loving Father surprised me.
And there are no 'buts' in this response!!!
(couldn't resist)
Matthewnoah counte # Saturday, March 1, 2008 12:01:16 PM
Nicely said.
Loiscakkleberrylane # Saturday, March 1, 2008 12:08:46 PM
However, the records are not always shared between competeing stores and so you could have a problem there. More of an issue of course for people taking a large variety of meds.
My daughter told me that doctor's only get 1 semister of pharmacy, so really your pharmacist knows more in that particular area.
And when a mistake is made, it is seldom the doctor's fault.
A dcotor perscribed cancer meds for a man and misplaced the decimal point. He got 10 times the dosage he should have. The pharmacist pointed out the error 3 times to his nurse. The nurse reported it to the doctor each time the pharmacist called to confirm the dosage. Last thing the doctor said was that he knew bloody well what he was doing and just fill the *** perscription. The patient died. Blame was put 50% on the pharmacist and 50% on the nurse. Both lost their licenses and the doctor is still practicing.
This is a good reason for pharmacists to have the right to refuse to fill a perscription.
Jill JilleeBean # Saturday, March 1, 2008 7:04:26 PM
Of course, their 'drug doctors' and too many people do not place their trust in the 'right people'...plain and simple!
I shutter and shake, when in any doctor's offices (and I'm there for others a lot) and I see THE MAN HIMSELF come in, with his little bag of unknown goodies, because everyone then waits 2 hours for the appts. to be caught up...and I sit there and think...MY GOD, how many 'poor souls' are being given 'samples' of drugs that the doctor knows NOTHING about!!!!!!!!
My personal Doc will not 'experiment' on me, because we share often regarding the visits and drop offs of those samples.
Some samples are well known and given as a freebie for trying the 'unknowns.'
And I have lost track of how many times a Pharmacist, when reviewing the list of drugs a person has been taking, has called the doctor and questioned (ooowww, taboo) them regarding the dosages and even the medication itself.
They don't like to be questioned. The whole 'god complex thing', you know? And this has saved so many lives.
Example: my Dad was seeing a doctor that he no longer sees, and this is one of the reasons, and this was years ago also, and after turning in a prescription to the Pharmacy, i no sooner reached the front door before I got a call on my cell to come back!!!
This doctor had written a prescription for my Dad that dangerously lowers blood pressure and his was already very low, and when questioned by our local Pharmacist as to the reason, after reading of my Father's history, the doctor replied..." Barbara, my nurse will call in another prescription, if the patient is going to cause such a problem, because he probably wouldn't take it as prescribed, anyway.
Duke, my hero, and our pharmacist replied.."the patient is not the problem. The problem is the dangerously high dose of.....prescribed to Mr.......that could cause, not only a severe drop in pressure, but could also upset his heart rthymn."
Duke later told me that he is ONE doctor that he continuously has problems with because there is no suggesting an alternative to him without an argument ensuing. UNBELIEVABLE, isn't it????
Continuously educating people is truly the only way to avoid such tragic outcomes.
Thanks, Lois!!!
Jill JilleeBean # Saturday, March 1, 2008 7:12:59 PM
Cajunlaydecajunlayde # Wednesday, March 12, 2008 6:29:13 AM
You and I have so much more in common than you may imagine and when I have been here longer and am more comfortable here, I will share. Until then, know that you are not alone in the fight to make doctors/dentists/medical people in general...accountable for their heinous acts. It is up to those of us who have suffered abuse at their hands to alert the public and make the world of medicine safer for everyone. I applaud you for pioneering the fight.
BTW...I tried to get to your blog last night and couldn't, for the life of me. I have no idea why except that it must have been an Opera *glitch*. I would have answered sooner if I could have.
Jill JilleeBean # Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:59:07 AM
Remember the days, oh the good old days of Family Doctors and them coming to our home and the personal care we all received, and it wasn't all about money. They could wait, if you didn't have it.
I'm sure we have a lot in common and in time for me also, I share of my demons, the ones that haunt me, anyway!
And you're so right and thank you for saying it, that we must all continue to become/stay involved and when an injustice ocurrs, we must speak out. There is strength in numbers, and I do believe we are lacking in numbers, in the last few generations.
It's the ole'.."Let someone else speak out and Let the other guy vote"..it's just a slew of passing it all on!!!
Oh, and regarding Opera, same thing here and many nights I cannot even get onto my 'own' blog!! Last night I was deep in work and was checking out Opera and working (jumping back and forth between sites) then it got to the point where I just logged out. They really have some serious issues here that need to be addressed!!!
I'm off to the shower...long day today...I took off a few days, well, five to be exact, and I need to get back out there.
I'll probably check in tonight...If I can get on!!!
Hey, thanks for this comment, appreciate it!
You have an awesome day!!!
Cajunlaydecajunlayde # Thursday, March 13, 2008 6:00:43 AM
I hope you had an awesome day yourself...and the same for tomorrow!
Jill JilleeBean # Thursday, March 13, 2008 2:24:16 PM