Life and Death follow-up
Friday, 18. January 2008, 22:05:31
Thanks for your comment and question on the previous post. I'll try to answer your questions:
I don't think Jesus was speaking to the law, the legal system or the rulers. He was speaking to the individual, the common man on the street, the person who was appealing to the law. Thus, in speaking against the 'eye for an eye' rule He was not saying that the law should not carry out punishment against people - He wasn't an anarchist - but rather that the individual should not seek revenge against those who harm him. So no, Jesus did not seek to overrule the Old Testament Law, but rather to show people that the Law is not enough, that the Law cannot bring about spiritual renewal of your heart and mind, that the Law alone would not suffice for sanctification.
To give a simplistic analogy: If I were to hold a seminar exhorting businessmen not to sue people who infringe on their copyrights I would not be saying that copyright law should not exist. Rather I would be telling the businessmen that there are bigger issues. It's an analogy that falls flat on its face in many respects, but hopefully it is helpful.
Whenever we see Jesus interacting with the Law - notably His interactions with the scribes and the Pharisees - we see that He proves His innocence. We never see Him condeming or trying to change the law. Rather, we see Him condemning those people who follow the Law and rely solely on it for their status. But the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5ff) was given to a bunch of people on a hillside. It was a pastoral speech, not a political one - a set of spiritual guidelines, not legal ones.
When I speak of killing yourself, I do not necessarily mean that you are the one pulling the trigger. Taking the example above, carrying the cocaine through customs in and of itself would be an act of suicide, unless you are particularly stupid.
I don't think that there is ever an excuse to kill yourself on religious grounds, but that is not the same thing as dying for religious reasons. We Christians have a long history of being killed for our beliefs, and I believe those people who have been martyred for their convictions deserve a special place in heaven. But again, this does not mean that you should allow someone to kill you for just any off-hand reason. If someone intends to kill me for the purposes of taking my wallet, I intend to make every effort to resist him. This is not what is meant by "Do not resist the evil man." However if I were to be hauled before a court and tried for being a Christian with the penalty being death, I hope to have the courage to stand tall, look the judge in the eye and plead "Guilty."
To my knowledge, the Bible only addresses motives in the negative sense. It never says, "Well, you did your best, good job." The saying is, "Well done, good and faithful servant," not, "Well meant, good and faithful servant." This sounds harsh, but then we also believe that God gives us the means to accomplish His goals.
I believe it is in Hosea where it says - and this is speaking to Jews who held to the Law and all its sacrifices - that God desires mercy, not sacrifice, The implication here is that sacrifice is only meaningful when the motive is correct, that being to restore a relationship to God, and not just to 'keep the law'. It might be similar to saying "I want you to live your life well, not just let it be dragged out in a hospital bed, becoming old and embittered." But that's me trying to put words in God's mouth, which is never a good idea.
There is still an issue that (I think) you haven't clarified for me. The death penalty would seem to go against the teachings of Jesus. Did you quote, an eye for an eye? Didn't Jesus effectively overrule the OT? I feel you are on sticky ground, which ever way you turn.
I don't think Jesus was speaking to the law, the legal system or the rulers. He was speaking to the individual, the common man on the street, the person who was appealing to the law. Thus, in speaking against the 'eye for an eye' rule He was not saying that the law should not carry out punishment against people - He wasn't an anarchist - but rather that the individual should not seek revenge against those who harm him. So no, Jesus did not seek to overrule the Old Testament Law, but rather to show people that the Law is not enough, that the Law cannot bring about spiritual renewal of your heart and mind, that the Law alone would not suffice for sanctification.
To give a simplistic analogy: If I were to hold a seminar exhorting businessmen not to sue people who infringe on their copyrights I would not be saying that copyright law should not exist. Rather I would be telling the businessmen that there are bigger issues. It's an analogy that falls flat on its face in many respects, but hopefully it is helpful.
Whenever we see Jesus interacting with the Law - notably His interactions with the scribes and the Pharisees - we see that He proves His innocence. We never see Him condeming or trying to change the law. Rather, we see Him condemning those people who follow the Law and rely solely on it for their status. But the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5ff) was given to a bunch of people on a hillside. It was a pastoral speech, not a political one - a set of spiritual guidelines, not legal ones.
I'm interested in your mentioning suicide and assisted suicide and being against them. This makes your position even harder to justify in my opinion. If a christian cannot bring himself to kill himself on religious grounds, why not just go through Singapore airport with a kilo of coke?
When I speak of killing yourself, I do not necessarily mean that you are the one pulling the trigger. Taking the example above, carrying the cocaine through customs in and of itself would be an act of suicide, unless you are particularly stupid.
I don't think that there is ever an excuse to kill yourself on religious grounds, but that is not the same thing as dying for religious reasons. We Christians have a long history of being killed for our beliefs, and I believe those people who have been martyred for their convictions deserve a special place in heaven. But again, this does not mean that you should allow someone to kill you for just any off-hand reason. If someone intends to kill me for the purposes of taking my wallet, I intend to make every effort to resist him. This is not what is meant by "Do not resist the evil man." However if I were to be hauled before a court and tried for being a Christian with the penalty being death, I hope to have the courage to stand tall, look the judge in the eye and plead "Guilty."
It's a petty starting point for my next argument, but I'm sure you'll get the idea! How specific is the bibel on motive versus actions exactly?
To my knowledge, the Bible only addresses motives in the negative sense. It never says, "Well, you did your best, good job." The saying is, "Well done, good and faithful servant," not, "Well meant, good and faithful servant." This sounds harsh, but then we also believe that God gives us the means to accomplish His goals.
I believe it is in Hosea where it says - and this is speaking to Jews who held to the Law and all its sacrifices - that God desires mercy, not sacrifice, The implication here is that sacrifice is only meaningful when the motive is correct, that being to restore a relationship to God, and not just to 'keep the law'. It might be similar to saying "I want you to live your life well, not just let it be dragged out in a hospital bed, becoming old and embittered." But that's me trying to put words in God's mouth, which is never a good idea.
WIDGETIZE