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Loki's sensible nonsense of nonsensical sense

In all seriousness

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WARNING. This post might actually convey an opinion. (It might also not, I'm certainly not going to put me in a position where I can be held accountable for anything I write in this post) Some people might find this concept offensive. (I certainly do.) You have been warned.


The concept of "Human Rights" bugs me. It bugs me that people, usually secular such, walks merrily around proclaiming they have "a right" to this and "a right" to that.


On what grounds? Because your grandfather's grandmother's third cousin knew one of the guys writing your consitution, and you're still living in the same general geographical area as they made their laws for? Okay, then, maybe you've got "a right" to this and that as a citizen, as a member of the nation following this constitution.

But at what point does this "right" the collective you're dwelling in has decided to grant you become universal for all humans? What the hell gives you the right to say "this is a human right"? "The UN says so"? What the hell gives the UN the right to say what counts as human rights and, more importantly, what don't? Last I checked, not even one hundreth of a percentile of the humans supposedly covered by the "human rights" have a vote in the UN. If they're lucky, they might share one with a few million others.

In Norway, I think, and in Sweden, owning a television set is considered part of the bare minimum of what a person should have. If you don't have a job, if you don't have an income, if you don't have any money, the government finances, among other things, your television set. It is, basically, considered a right to have a television set. Oooookay? So, in Norway, we have more human rights than they do in, say, Kenya? Then it isn't human rights, people, then it isn't a right you have just for being a human. Then it's Norwegian rights. Rights you have for being a Norwegian human. And that's another matter entirely.

But even people making this distinction keeps nagging about human rights as if they were universal. The right not to be discriminated against. The right not to be abused. The right of "free speech", oh, that one's maybe the worst one.

What a load of bullocks that one is.

Where do these people who made these rights get them? Did they just have a gut instinct "this is something everybody should have a right to"? If they did, why is these people's gut instincts guidelines for international ethics? Or did they look to their culture, what was considered right and wrong, and pick out what was generally considered the essenatials? If so, why does these rules claim to be universal, and not British or French or American or at least Western? Because they sure as hell didn't get it written down by God.

And therein lies the heart of the matter. (Those who want to read the last sentence as "Which brings us to tonight's wørd" may feel free to do so.) Justification.

Secular Humanists are awfully fond of pointing to the "Human Rights". It's their only claim to universal authority, because they, as opposed to most other religious people, have no holy bidding granting them and their opinions this authority. And yet these "Rights" they love so much come from nowhere at all - if from anywhere, they're from societies shaped in centuries by Christian ethics.

And then, there's conflict. Of course, there's always conflict, so that's not new, but there you go anyway.
Doesn't everyone stand a right not to have his or her beliefs insulted? To be treated with respect? According to these "Human Rights" that is. But everyone also has the so-called right to say whatever the Gorm they please. Including lies. Including insults. No matter what you want to do, no matter how many other people's rights you violate, there's always one right or another which gives you the right, the justification, to do it.
And that's just the tip of the ice-berg.

Now, the reason I'm writing this post is that we (barely) touched the topic on a seminar earlier today, and my lecturer used a word I've never really thought about in this context before, but which seems obvious now.

Duty.

The point of the Human Rights, regardless of their justufications, is that they try to grant every human a certain amount of certainity, happyness and security in their lives. Doing that by giving people rights don't work (well). People like having rights. People like being able to scream about their rights being neglected. People, in general, like screaming, it seems. It's probably a universal character flaw, but there you go. We love each other nonetheless. We have the right to be loved, you see.

Nonsense.
We have the duty to love. We have the duty not to insult others. We have the duty to let others say what they mean. We have the duty not to steal stuff. And we have the duty not to shoot our hunting-comrade in the face.

Human Duty. Not Human Right. Bugger the Rights. Rights are for imbeciles. Duties are for people. The only justification, a collective wish for everyone to feel as good as possible at all times, is not for rights, it's a justification for duty.


And that's the wørd.

VSiamese, if you please

Comments

Obdormio 4. April 2006, 17:39

See, it's a lot easier being religious. Them duties are pretty clear, even if we aren't always very good at actually doing them.

Also, "People, in general, like screaming."

You can't see it, but I'm quoting you on this.

Loki Aesir 4. April 2006, 17:46

"See, it's a lot easier being religious. Them duties are pretty clear, even if we aren't always very good at actually doing them."

I know. I didn't stress that point because, well, it wasn't my point, but I know, and I tried to hint at it. I'm not religious. I wish I were, though, I wish I had the ability to. Seemingly, I don't. I'm too much of a sceptic. I need a logical, irrefutable explanation on something before I believe in it, and even then I do it only tentatively. That attitude, that mind-set, makes for a very bad believer.


"Also, "People, in general, like screaming."
You can't see it, but I'm quoting you on this."

Oooooh, where? :D

Obdormio 4. April 2006, 17:47

Where it counts.

Loki Aesir 4. April 2006, 17:54

...on a calculator? No, wait, I can do better than that.




In an Excel sheet?




Er, let me give that one more try...



No, dammit, fresh out of tries.


So, where the bloody Helheim, burning Muspelheim and sodding Niflheim do you mean? ;_;

Obdormio 4. April 2006, 18:09

Was Helheim really all that bloody?

Loki Aesir 4. April 2006, 18:19

No. I was at a loss for adjectives. "Boring" or "sad" didn't quite seem to fit the bill.

Obdormio 4. April 2006, 18:25

Well, you've had your answer. Sadly, no one else will.

Loki Aesir 4. April 2006, 18:59

Yup.



Turns out, people, Obdormio has a randomly appearing bunch of quotes on the moderator-menu of his webpage - he SHOULD have them on the reader-page, of course, and impress people, but he doesn't, so let us deal with it and move on, moving on, moved on - and now, I'm the author of one of these quotes. I so totally rule.

Obdormio 4. April 2006, 18:59

Oh, right. You can't be trusted. I forgot.

Loki Aesir 4. April 2006, 19:11

Of course I can. But you never told me this was a secret, you just sad no one would ever know about it, and that this was sad. I thought I'd tell people, thus make you happy.

If you wanted to keep this a secret, you have got to learn to C-O-M-M-U-N-I-C-A-T-E, man! You can EASILY trust me, but then you have to let me know what you trust on me to do - or in this case, not do. I'm not a mind-reader, for cryin' out loud!

Anonymous 4. April 2006, 23:56

Sarah writes:

my mind isn't awake enough to thoroughly analyse your post and respond to it (you'll probably contradict me in the end anyway), but I will say the following.

"duty" and "rights" are in the eye of the beholder. both spring from each individuals' values. those were formed at the begining of the human race and are constantly changing and being influenced. how did our values became shaped the way they are? why are we all aiming to be "good guys" instead of "bad guys"? Bob only knows.

my point is (I think) that it isn't all black and white. there is no such thing as "human" rights and duty. not in the big picture, because -- to put it simply -- to each his own. you decide (or your government to a ceratain extent) what your rights and duty are based on your own set of values.

as Adam Baldwin once said (or something like it anyway), "good guys, bad guys -- every son of a bitch in this world thinks he's righteous in his own mind." which is true. generally, does the "bad guy" think he's the "bad guy"? not so much. he believes he's doing the "right thing."

if the above post didn't make any sense, I appologise and blame my lack of sleep.

Loki Aesir 5. April 2006, 00:23

Of course there is no such thing as "human rights" or "human duties". That was my point. But the function "human rights" is intended to have, however, I believe could be better served by the concept "human duty". Also a false concept, yes, but that's irrelevant if it brings results.

As you'll see from my post, I spent most of it dissing "human rights". But then, at the very end, I admit that its intention is good. So I propose another way of going about it which I believe would serve that intention better.

You see, people are very fond of pointing out what they have the right to. People are not so fond of pointing out what they have the duty to. Luckily, they are fond of pointing out what others have a duty to.

Lets take the by-now-clichè cartoon-drawings of Muhammad, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, and the following debate. A system of rights cause conflict, here. Muslims claim to have a right not to have their most vital beliefs ridiculed. Westerners claim to have a right to be able to say whatever they want to.
That's conflict.

If there instead were duties, no conflict. If the Westernes have the duty not to insult others, then no offensive cartoons. If the Muslims have the duty to let the Westerners say and write what they mean and want to, then no violent reactions. Give people the idea that they have rights, and they'll exercise these rights, and bugger be all else. Give people the idea of having duties instead, and the problem, logically, ceases to exist.

I'm sorry if my changing point of the post in the five last paragraphs confused you, but I'm really arguing for two things here - the first, on a principal, philosophical ground that there are no universal rights (or duties). The second on an ethical, pragmatic and functional ground that we want people to live in as much joy and harmony as possible, and that these concepts, however unfounded and unrelated to reality they may be, are believed in, and as such have power to aid us in reaching such goals. Regardless of whether or not the principles themselves actually are in any way true.

Anonymous 5. April 2006, 10:39

9ls writes:

Some things (love that word..):

First of all, this was some seriously serious stuff from you.. What I mean; this would not be the kind of post I would expect in a non-blog-thingy by you.. Although (if that was correctly written, I'm impressed) that little thing about shoting hunting-comrades was totally you..

About religion in this matter; there are religious people, and there are fanatic people. Now, for one of those groups I have all the respect I could have... (I might be religious my self, I may also not be..(at all for what i Know..))

Amen to Sarah (I think), and then not in the usual sarcastic way when coming from me..

Last, but not least; some argue that as long as there's religions, there will always be conflicts and wars.. I agree, and add the following: as long as there's people, there will always be religions. I don't have the right to claim I'm right, but It's our duty to be aware of it.

Loki Aesir 5. April 2006, 10:57

XD It's our duty to be aware of your being right? Quite possibly.


Thanks for the praise. As for shooting hunting-comrades in the face, well, a guy can only stay quasi-serious for so long without doing some mindless Cheney-bashing. I mean, come on, man, that's what he's there for!

Anonymous 6. April 2006, 02:27

Sarah writes:

"A system of rights cause conflict, here. Muslims claim to have a right not to have their most vital beliefs ridiculed. Westerners claim to have a right to be able to say whatever they want to.
That's conflict."

"If there instead were duties, no conflict. If the Westernes have the duty not to insult others, then no offensive cartoons. If the Muslims have the duty to let the Westerners say and write what they mean and want to, then no violent reactions."


I think I might have left my point halfway across town by now, but I'll give this a shot anyway.

I think there's a flaw in your plan of replacing rights by duties. the government can protect its people by preventing others from doing them harm, because these people have their rights. however, the government can't protect its people by forcing others to fullfill (sp?) a duty.

let me put it simply: it's a lot easier to stop someone from doing something than forcing them to do something else. trying to do that would be like attempting to build a utopia -- and you know the track record of those things.

also, there's no way that this could work in your Muhammad cartoons example for the simple reason that the values behind the rights or duties that would come into play in this situation would never mesh. right or duty, it all springs from the same place. everyone has a different set of core values, making it impossible for everyone to just shut up and get along already.

I don't think changing the system would ever make "the problem, logically, cease to exist." it would just make the problem and conflict different.

but anyway, I've digressed enough. please forgive my sleep-deprived rantings.

Loki Aesir 6. April 2006, 18:00

The government is irrelevant, as the point of "Human" Duties - or Rights - is that they are universal, and as such, the government, being local, cannot enforce them. The point of "Human" Rights is that they are supposedly held by any Human on the globe, and the "international society", whatever that is, use violations of them as a reason to interfer where they'd otherwise hold no authority. Now, you can interfer just as easily when someone openly neglects a duty as when someone openly isn't given their right. You're just looking at the violater instead of the violated.

"let me put it simply: it's a lot easier to stop someone from doing something than forcing them to do something else."
Exaxtly. "I HAVE THE RIGHT TO LIVE" doesn't stop my killer from killing me just becuase it in theory forces him to do something else. "I HAVE THE DUTY NOT TO KILL YOU" obviously don't stop the killer either, but the responsibility lies on *him*. It's an active prohibitation, not a passive one. If you have the right not to be done something against, well, fine, but you can't really do anything about it, can you? If you have to enforce your own right, it's not really a right you have anymore, it's a right you take. Whereas if you have a duty, the responsibilty is clear - you either follow your duty, or you don't. There is no such responsibility on rights - you can demean OTHER people's rights to be sure, but what's their rights to you? It's their rights, after all. It's your duty. I belive that change of perspective could make a difference - provided the people with the duty believe they have the duty, of course. Human Rights don't work unless borht the people with the Rights and everybody around them know AND accept these rights. Human Duties would work for every individual who believes in them, which is far more realistic - and effective.

"trying to do that would be like attempting to build a utopia -- and you know the track record of those things."
There's no utopia. Human Duties won't work. I'm just saying that they, in theory, should work better than Human Rights. As I stated, Human Rights and Human Duties are fantasies, made up from no logical foundation whatsoever, created out of nothing in hope of leading people who believes in them towards an ideal. My point is that if people first are to belive in a fantasy, believing in a fantasy of having Duties is far more effective for the goals set than believing in a fantasy of having Rights.

Of course, believing in having a Duty is not as attractive as believing in having a Right, but that is not my problem.

"Also, there's no way that this could work in your Muhammad cartoons example for the simple reason that the values behind the rights or duties that would come into play in this situation would never mesh. right or duty, it all springs from the same place. everyone has a different set of core values, making it impossible for everyone to just shut up and get along already."
I disagree. If you convince the aggrivated Muslims they have a duty to let the Danish cartoonists speak their opinion and that they have a duty to accept that this opinion differ from their own, and the Danish cartoonists they have a duty not to consciencly offend anyone when speaking their opinion, not to be deliberately crude or offensive, then it will work.

Of course, it is dependent on both sides believing they have these Duties, but that's the case with Rights as well. The advantage of Duties is that they put the responsibility on the agent, not on the object, not that they're more easily accepted than the Rights - because they aren't.

Anonymous 9. April 2006, 20:01

Caroline writes:

[insert opinions about a lot of different things here]

I like ducks and I like you!

Loki Aesir 9. April 2006, 20:05

:o

You like me?! TOTAL AWESOMENESS! :D



Also, ducks? Pretty fucking cool! Especially Drake Mallard! (Daring Duck of Mystery, Champion of Right, sneaks out through the shadows, Dark Wing of the Night... somewhere some villain schemes - but his number's up! DARKWING DUCK! When there's trouble you call DW! Darkwing Duck! (Let's get... dangerous...) Darkwing Duck!)

Anonymous 24. April 2006, 21:01

Al writes:

"I am the terror that flaps in the night! I am the wrong number that wakes you at 3am..."

...seriously?!
Human rights; interesting! I might have a thing or *two* to say on that subject. Admittedly, I'm not up for it right now, being tired and on my way to bed (and also, being the master of bad excuses ;-) ).
So for now, I will just say this. Reading this post just made me think; are human rights activists not just being equally annoying as religious people? In my opinion there are few people as annoying as religious people, so I'll take my chances with human rigths activists any day. But credit to you anyway, Loki. Nice post, good points :-)

Loki Aesir 24. April 2006, 21:12

:D


I got praise!


And yes, in my opinion, any kind of activist is equally annoying, I try not to discriminate between different kinds of morons, it gets so tiresome to keep track of it after a while. Much more convenient to judge them all at once.

Anonymous 24. April 2006, 21:31

Terje writes:

"are human rights activists not just being equally annoying as religious people?"

They can be, but considering that human rights have a more legitimate position as motivation for action in today's politics than does religion, and since human rights have a bigger positive potential (mind you, I'm a rabid agnostic atheist, and to my view, the potential good religion can do is miniscule when compared to its negative potential), I tend to favour the human rights guys...

And at least human rights is somehow founded in reason, unlike religion... :P

Loki Aesir 24. April 2006, 21:33

I disagree, strongly. I see no reasonable basis for human rights, whereas religion is reasonably based on teachings percieved as superhuman in origins.

Anonymous 24. April 2006, 21:38

Al writes:

Don't get too used to it (the praise, I mean) ;)

You have a point about trying to judge everybody at once - I like that. But then again, I also like to be most annoyed with religious people, a habit I'm having a hard time letting go. It does take a lot of hard work to be so annoyed as I am :D
...Will return with more interesting things to say (I hope).

Anonymous 24. April 2006, 21:45

Terje writes:

Argh, my mind is too drowned in John Milton at the moment for me to manage to read up on natural law and the history of human rights, so I'll just have to forfeit this one.

Loki Aesir 24. April 2006, 21:46

I find being annoyed mainly by religious people so very limiting. Why not let oneself be annoyed by everyone equally? Saves a lot of effort, and it's less bigoty.

Anonymous 14. July 2006, 23:40

Lojah writes:

Not bad. Though I disagree with a few minor details I agree with the basic point. I'd really like to see this rant more developed in a standard essay format. Good job!

Lojah
www.myspace.com/lojahmusic

Loki Aesir 15. July 2006, 13:51

I probably disagree with more than a few minor details myself, as I write in the disclaimer, but yeah, I think I can, more or less, stand by what could be called the basic point of the text.

As for making it into a serious essay... well, I'll give it some thought, seeing as you request it, but I don't really see any real point to doing so.


Thanks for commenting. :D

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