The house problem
Wednesday, 15. July 2009, 05:00:51
Isn't the price of houses nonsense? Your only chance is to count on two good salaries and ask for a mortgage then pay the house in 30 years.
There are side effects, like:
Few new houses are built and instead old ones are patched with bad consequences on energy saving and safety on the long term. It is difficult to make a family for young people, without support from parents. "Social mobility" in Italy is greatly reduced, people can't change place, jobs, careers, etc. You can't take risks or even changes.









Aux # 16. July 2009, 21:27
Time to move to Malaysia?
LorenzoCelsi # 17. July 2009, 06:08
I don't know, I have discussed with people in the construction business but, no matter what, they can't convince me that the right price of a small house of 3 rooms is 400.000 euros. Unless the right income for a job is much higher than the average here. There is something broken when your income remains more or less the same of 10 years ago but everything costs 2 or 3 times more. I mean, 1kg of basic bread costs 3 euros here. About 15 years ago it was the expense for 3 or 4 days of food (3 meals a day) for me. Only computers are cheaper.
starree # 18. July 2009, 16:15
There are some lots that weren't even built on (so a house or two with dirt in between them) and some houses that got bought and empty or abandoned it seems. There were reports of families and my coworker said of a guy that defaulted on his own house but they can't evict him because this small bank was bought and sold and bought so many times this last two years they can't "Prove" he defaulted on his house or not!
It is sad here that the similar thing happens (I really think the banks will eventually catch up with people that do this) here though too. People are taking longer and longer to leave 'the nest' because they simply can't afford to.
I did read maybe a few months ago that Italian men are more tied to the heartstrings of their mothers and leaving home later and later in life. Sounds like it's not due to psychology but more finance like it is here. It's so ridiculous.
LorenzoCelsi # 18. July 2009, 16:42
starree # 18. July 2009, 17:28
Here it's common to pick an industry and move where the jobs are, which I think leads to disconnection (in the friend sense) so I think that's worse here in that way. As difficult as it is to find sincere people it's even harder when you are moving 3-4 times (or more) during your lifetime.
I suppose the good side is you are only limited by location but the same office politics always apply (I guess that is kind of global). We don't have the same sense of "working your way up the ladder" as it was in the 80's and 90's, now it's common for people to backstab to get ahead or simply switch jobs to get a raise.
LorenzoCelsi # 18. July 2009, 18:06
I guess there are some basic differences between US and Italy.
Some are physical, being US a wide empty territory full of resources while Italy is a small crowded place where people, who came from all over by land and sea, have fought wars for thousands years over the same little piece of soil.
Today we have:
Italy: 301.338 km²
Population: 59.762.887 - 198,4/km²
Versus:
US: 9,826,630 km2
Population: 306,931,000 - 31/km2
You see we have got a "density" of population for squared kilometer that is 6.5 times higher than US. Here where I live it is even much higher than the average. That means there aren't many places where you can find better opportunities in Italy.
Some differences are cultural, for example Italy is mostly a catholic country while US was originally lead by a majority of protestants. This leads to a very different approach to some things of life, for example wealth and business. To make it simple, for the catholic wealth and success is a sin, while for the protestant success is a sign of the grace of God. Traditionally business in the protestant countries is much more aggressive and merciless. For the catholics you can earn merits through your actions in life, while for the protestant you can't achieve salvation that comes only from God's grace. So catholics try to mediate while protestants have the famous bible in one hand the the gun in the other.
There is also a different idea of the "community". Like I said already elsewhere, in US the community is a group of individuals who decide to band together. In Italy it is the opposite, the individual exists only as part of a community (like the clan, the village etc). This explains why Italians must be forced to leave their hometown or their relatives. In ancient times exile was worse than death because away from your community you lost your identity and from human being you became a beast. In contemporary age this means americans deal with issues as individuals, while Italians rely on the community/state. So you have the deregulated free market on one side and a state-assisted economy on the other side, as well as the public health care and so on.
Shaunak # 19. July 2009, 03:52
LorenzoCelsi # 19. July 2009, 05:09
starree # 19. July 2009, 14:06
That is interesting how you see the U.S. Have you ever been here before? I find most have different opinions once they visit
(probably true of visiting any country as my friends say how beautiful Italy is)
LorenzoCelsi # 19. July 2009, 15:41
starree # 19. July 2009, 15:52
LorenzoCelsi # 19. July 2009, 16:06
Nevermind...
starree # 19. July 2009, 16:16
I've known lots of people that got laid off, it's affecting "us". Yes the government still has not admitted they let things slide for some reason (probably officials getting paid off) because they DID have regulation, they just weren't doing their job.
I think that is the problem with greed, everyone stopped thinking about anyone but themselves (the guys at the top I mean) but yeah , they royally messed up and we all get to pay for it, same old story , or "and so on" as you say
LorenzoCelsi # 19. July 2009, 16:26
There are obvious cultural differences when on one side you have the president who lands with a jet on a carrier and speaks to sailors wearing a flight jacket as opposed to a prime minister like ours who is a tycoon and said to organize wild parties with "escort girls" in his villas. See the Clinton - Lewinsky scandal.
starree # 19. July 2009, 21:45
That Clinton - Lewinsky thing was ridiculous. Considering all the affairs John F Kennedy had that weren't publicized I don't know why we got into that at all (Unless someone just wanted to make Clinton look even worse than he did
There is a web site somewhere of all the stupid things Bush Jr. said, it's funny for a bit and then it's just sad.
LorenzoCelsi # 20. July 2009, 06:26
Same goes for Bush, or any other president. Politicians are salesmen and they do and say what the "market" wants. Yes, they can somehow direct the market with "marketing", like providing false information to the public but again, for the same above principle, people go where they want to go. You tell me about "opinions" on US. Like speaking of Italy I cannot ignore our Prime Minister and his orgies (and mostly Italians approve or don't mind), I cannot ignore that Bush was elected twice (8 years) and apparently he had the support of most Americans, including some friends of mine. There wasn't any revolt against him, despite he opened two never ending wars (with obvious and pathetic lies like the "hidden weapons of masse destruction") and the financial apocalypse. Or smaller events like placing missiles in Poland and arming Georgia, while pushing to include ex soviet republics in the NATO, with the obvious consequence of pushing Europe against Russia, not only politically but mainly as business partner.
You say Kennedy, besides the whole Kennedy saga (US are the only "democratic" nation where presidents and senators get mysteriously killed), I cannot help to think of the Cuba crisis and the Vietnam war. About Vietnam, there is a curious similarity with Bush's WMD fabricated evidences, the gulf of Tonkin Incident:
"In October, 2005 the New York Times reported that Robert J. Hanyok, a historian for the U.S. National Security Agency, had concluded that the NSA deliberately distorted the intelligence reports that it had passed on to policy-makers regarding the August 4, 1964 incident. He concluded that the motive was not political but was probably to cover up honest intelligence errors". Does this repetition say anything to you? Of course, besides the fact that US are always at war and spend in the military like the rest of the world together...