"Destined Minds"

There's a place I'll never see..

that depends Cois - for you know(stepping on to evangelical soap box) God sent His son for all - and you get to choose your eternity with or withouy Christ....just don't seriously wait to b e hit by a bus

so other than not knowing Christ personally why do you say it's a place you will never see? and good morning to you - a sleepless night for me I'm afraid

love and forgiveness we all carry in us.It was give to us all as a gift.
Sharing our gifts with others it just makes them appreciated more and brings a smile to the giver!

I'm not a religious person anymore..
Thing is.. everyone is going to hell according to all religions.. muslim say christians will go to hell and vice versa.. every other religion calls the other ungodly.. and so it rages on..
Except for this there's a million other little reasons I lost my religion which was catholic by the way..
I could prattle on and on about what My beliefs are but I'd be doing the same thing as someone wanting to convince someone else why their religion is a winner..
To each his own I say and hope the devil doesn't sort us out..

I can certainly understand where you are coming from Cois - so which God is right, which faith is right.....which way to live is right..

the way I see it....denomination aside, and religion too - only one God that is the God of us all....

and its true we are all going to hell (eternity without God) if we do not accept Christ...

I don't think anyone can convince another of Gods existance or heaven and hell etc....one can talk about it, one can live their faith but in the end it is the persons heart that opens to the truth that does the convicing....

if it helps put history into perspective - Muhommed tried to get his learning from the Christians during he earlier years and the Koran and not a lot of muslims pay heed to instructs them to not ignore the word of God (Torah scriptures etc)so technially even they rcognise the might and authority of God...

I can likewise give you a million reasons right now why I shouldn't beleive in God like this life quite possibly right now be easier if there were no God and live as I choose however experience tells me otherwise - once you know God one can certainly try to stray(know God+having accepted Jesus christ into their heart)unfortunately to each his own has a folly of his ow and as you say the devil will certainly have its day but also its end....

I do know this I owuld rather accept Christ in my life for the living I have now than for a promised eternity.....as keen as I am to meet God....and as much as my life sucks right now.....medical and car crash last week, tenant crap and the 30k debt they kindly gave us, the stalking and threats and harrassment blah blah...I wouldn't trade that for the sustaining grace of God....I'm not quite sure when its all going to kick in...lol but for the graces I have received I'm grateful...

If any of my words could so easily convince I would simply say repent and hand your life over to God, take that leap of faith and live life as its meant to be.....but as my words I beleive are useless and dormant on their own the human in me would say boldy, Cois there is a God that loves you.....LIfe is not a search for God but simply a response - respond while you can....(ok of soap box of evangelism) and besides wouldn't you want someone to have what you hold precious? I hope for you my friend that your million or so reasons go by the board....

perhaps as your on your journey in life we will have the opportunity to share the same fate one day....

I typed out a long response and then opera logged me out..
Maybe its for the best..
God works in mysterious ways apparently.. whenever something doesn't go as planned and its a miracle if it does..
hmmmm.. cynic to the end I am..

oh crap cois don't you hate that...lol that's happened to me a lot in the past....

but whatever you had to say I would have listened

I think such an expression stems from God's ways are not our ways which is closer to the truth...

hmmm believer I am to the end...lol

oh it is a common action at Opera... It's like religion you are loosing what you have in heart and then your within brings it back like you are logged in again!
if this happens press the back key in you PC (the memory it is still there), and copy your typing.When you are logged in you simply have to paste....Like Gods miracles, only simpler! Have a great week!

Hmmmm.. I feel so lonely being the sceptic.. Blind faith just doesn't work for me and having people rationalize that through bringing up God just rubs salt in the wound..
My belief is that religions exist to keep us all in check.. that's why not killing or adultery is considered a sin in all religions.. *shrugs* proof I need and this the bible cleverly disguised by saying you shouldn't ask for proof..
ellindata.. I tried that but it only loaded part of the page.. I should mention that I'm a phone user..

morning Cois - well certainly true to some extent....scripture in part is certainly to keep one in check more to the point focused so that ones journey and fulfillment in life moves forward...for w3here would anyone of us be without boundaries and laws and precepts and concepts to guide us?

turst me you shouldnt feel too alone there are many sceptics and disbelievers outright around

I have never said one shouldn't ask for proof, rather proof positive exists - you are living proof, nature is living proof

phone user???

for me I don't have to rationalise but I did need to know God existed before giving my allegienace so to speak otherwise while follow His precepts if He had not revealed Himself.....why continue following Him if those precepts and commands prove false can I ask why you would feel salt rubbed into your wounds?

I think for me skepticism exists to deceive or to absolve responsibilty towards God....???

can I ask why you actually don't believe??? was there a turning point in your life?

Turning points and doubts confirmed by scientific proof..
Morning I believe I'm living proof of the evolution of a ape man.. no clay, no rib and should that be taken litteraly? where did the rest of humanity come from?
Science proves evolution and adaption of humans to different climates and habitats thus the differences..
The bible portrays a fairytale that only ancient man could come up with.. just like greek myths so too could it be christian myths..

I'm not one to deprive someone of their religion but certainly that should go both ways?

Phone user? I use my phone to leave these comments..

well Cois when was the last time you did a count on your rib cage?

It's a miracle...lol how on earth do you do that - use your phone...?

on science adaptation is different to the actual changing of species - all man still remains all man just a ape all ape each species after its own kind and so on which science has proven and I could never adapt to QLD humidity and heat though to be honest two daughters have done just that and now grandkids being raised in that environment

and yes I think so when you look at context and text definitely literal parts of scripture are quite plain on what is literal, historical, parrabel and so on

Ribs are ribs.. they're there to protect vital internal organs.. like all animals humans adapted like this.. evolution stretches to millions of years in the past but its funny that dinosaurs aren't mentioned in the bible.. I'm sure there will be a rational explanation like that in the bible.. if the bible is so true it sure has alot of holes..

google 'opera mini' to see how I do it..

no silly I mean the fact that scripture says God took one of adams ribs and gave to Eve....

actually Cois if you read the old testament you will find more than one reference to dinasaurs - it gives a description of a tail like a cedar tree - and even gives it a name...(Behomoth)

"leviathan" (Psalm 104:26) and "behemoth" (Job 40:15)as two of those examples...

But if there were no mention of dinosaurs in the Bible, neither is there any conflict between Bible and the fossil record. "And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds" (Gen 1:24). This statement would cover every kind of land animal, including dinosaurs. Then finally, on the same "day" of creation, viz., the sixth, but many millions of years later, God created man, unique among all creatures of earth, as being made in God's image (Gen 1:26) as just one supposed understanding of scripture by some

http://www.calvaryu.net/ministry/creation/dinobible.html
gives a fairly descriptive of such a beast....

and this is interesting

http://www.answersingenesis.org/Docs/2.asp

talks of no transitional species found in the fossil records

perhaps this is one hole that is now well covered? what do you think?

I'm too tired now to read scripture so I'll save it for another day.. my limit of religious issues must have been reached! one more thing.. why was christianity forced upon slave races and they were only freed after giving up their own beliefs? namely the Bushmen from Southern Africa.. christianity is a loving religion..

seems you have more time for questions than anything....lol

I assume you are talking of "men of men" Khoikhoi

"interesting on Islam and slavery"

Slaves were obtained through conquest, tribute from vassal states (in the first such treaty, Nubia was required to provide hundreds of male and female slaves), offspring (children of slaves were also slaves, but since many slaves were castrated this was not as common as it had been in the Roman empire), and purchase. The latter method provided the majority of slaves, and at the borders of the Islamic Empire vast number of new slaves were castrated ready for sale (Islamic law did not allow mutilation of slaves, so it was done before they crossed the border). The majority of these slaves came from Europe and Africa -- there were always enterprising locals ready to kidnap or capture their fellow countrymen.

Black Africans were transported to the Islamic empire across the Sahara to Morocco and Tunisia from West Africa, from Chad to Libya, along the Nile from East Africa, and up the coast of East Africa to the Persian Gulf. This trade had been well entrenched for over 600 years before Europeans arrived, and had driven the rapid expansion of Islam across North Africa.


and this is interesting in regard to your statement/question of christianity and slavery

Then, in February 1999, Mathieu Kerekou, president of Benin, which was once a hotbed of slave selling, got down on his knees at the Church of the Great Commission in Baltimore to apologize for the central role of Africans in the slave trade. Later that year, the president of Ghana, Jerry Rawlings, attended a conference in Benin and also apologized. I learnt a few years ago that blacks sold blacks to the Europena - certainly doesnt make the euorpean lilly white by any stetch of th4e imagination

however if you look at history in the biblical context you will not many disobedient people of God were enslaved through war etc...

Can I ask you what you think of Charles Wesely and the like? and the many who broke away from the contraints of relitiogn to seek out their faith before God and to minister to people as God originally ordained?

and what do you think of the many thousands of churches who support their community in many welfare situations from hospital care, armed forces, single mums, aged care and so on?

usually I ask questions to find out other peoples point of view as mine is limited to only some things.. like in debate some things come up but as some people are limited to their own thoughts its refreshing to find out more by asking someone else who have an actual interest in something..
Charles Wesley I know nothing about..
Churches who take care of their communities I've yet to experience but do they take care of other communities in context that they're from other religions?
I really should google more and see what results might be found..
Unfortunately all I usually get is one point of view..

Oh then you should defintly check out that era of men who made great reforms in evangelism....Susanah wesley on the other hand proves even more an intersting character in history

good questio - Well I'm part of a church (actually I am the church in that the people are the church by definition) so yes we do and I know many many churches who do likewise...

NOt all people in armed forces are of faith, anymore than in prisons of which I have been apart of for a short while minsitering to aboriginals and other inmates at Silverwater jail for women.

and then a church iner city my daughteer was involved in offered lunch and english lessons no strings attached to a multitiude of koreans, japanes and other new migrants....

So you're a very religiously committed family? same church and everything?

Yes most definitley I would describe as being very religious if your definition means we have a personal relationship with Christ - albeit imperfect at times...

hubby and I go to one church
daughter inner city
son goes to ours in evening
one set of kids they go to catholic (dil comes from a catholic background)
other children all have made committments and I actually don't know if they go regularly but I do love it when both oldest daughters all read the same book get together and discuss God and principals of faith etc...

we say grace at most gathering meals? for us extra special when we have the kids for dinner...

I wasn't raised to have a personal relationship with God...

what about you did you ever do the sunday school thing? hey have you actually read scripture?

now have you checked out the dinasaur scripture bit?

I'm kind of the person who is not ashamed to talk about my faith much in the same way I talk about poetry and family and scrapbooking etc...I'm passionate about it...its something I do everyday often without thinking I guess.. and also in the same way I like to listen to what others have to say - as for my husband sometimes its hard to tell which he is more passionate about God or sport...lol he can talk for hours and hours about both...

I did the whole sunday school thing.. catholic.. choirboy.. blah blah..
Haven't been in a church in over 15 years and it doesn't bother me..
My mum and brother is in the dutch reformed church or something and my sister and late father catholic..
They never were religious..
I was once accused of being a satanist because of what I listen to and how I dress..
Nice to be judged by mortal man.. funny thing was these were fine upstanding christians..
I don't believe I'll ever set foot into a church for religious reasons..

choir boy? really how old are you know..my dad was catholic but didnt' go to church in my gorwing years adn they wernt relgious eithe

what is dutch reform?

oh oh oh...that is quite harsh a statement to make eh? I guess words get brandied around far too easy without thinking of the implications...

well perhaps you may consider church for the reason of Christ one day?

hi Maree,
The Dutch Reformed Church was organized among settlers from Holland in New York City in 1628 by Rev. Jonas Michaelius.
It is a Catholic faith as well.
---------
Coming from a deeply religious family,I was forced as a child to attend church every Sunday, fast every Wed. and Friday and attend Sunday School till the age of 16.
Just to give you an idea, there is a Saint in the Orthodox faith that was my mothers Great uncle and my mothers late brother was a monk at the Mount Athos. A place that only men are allowed and even the Greek Queen was turn away and not allowed to visit (because she was a woman).So, what happen to me?? I grew up and I walked away from my faith.I simply rebelled. Anything about religion at my early twenties was a waste of time(so I thought).Even the church bell bothered me!Later when I lost Michael I was so bitter my distance from God became greater.
By maturing and knowing who I am and accepting me and loving me it brought me back to my faith and I was like a reborn human. Now days I don't have to make an effort to be a good person,it comes to me automatically .I don't make an extra effort to read from a Christian Book it come to me as a treat. I am very amazed how the knowledge I received in my early age about religion did come all clear now.
I still envy people that find strength by joining a church group.I am still not at that level.I find being private more safe.It is lonesome at times but I am working on it!
In my life I find that religion it is like the circle of life.You start, move away trying to discover new things and then you do realize you had it all along!
Every thing needs time to register and to look clear. Age did play a great role in my case!

For me, it's all about having a relationship with God. We can dispute over doctrine but that God exists cannot be disputed.

I'm 27 now and was around 15 then.. well as people go they're only as christian as till they wanna brand someone..
qlue.. so God and Allah is one? How can it not be disputed? People of faith see miracles.. people like me have no faith and refuse to follow a belief blindly..

wow that is a relgious family alright....I can claim my madiend name means churchman but that is about it...lol

wow that is a relgious family alright....I can claim my madiend name means churchman but that is about it...lol

I know I tried to be angry at God once when I lost my daughter and held her in my hand - but as qlue states I could not deny that God existed I knew he was there right with me - didn't stop me being anyr at him at the time though but as I searched the scritpures realised the eror of my ways and thinking....and then grateful my child was with God...complete and whole

your life reads like an amazing novel...so very intersting

AMEN qlue - God exists and cares...

Cois?? brand someone? you mean like judging??

thanks Maree.I am so sorry to know you experienced the greatest pain possibly given to a human.I had four miscarriages before my Yannis and it hurt and it still does.I can not even imagine the pain...
I hope you always do find comfort in God and the love you get from your friends and family!

I glad Glue is giving us his warm thought too! I saw in his blogs very clearly that he will enjoy our company.

Cois, I do love the fact that at 27 you are having all these questions .It is very healthy to know and to wonder.
I was telling Maree in the past, that my late mother was rescued by a Jewish lady .If you just imagine the time was WWII then you can imagine how this woman risked her life to save the life of an orphan. The result of that was we had more exposure to different religions and to their ideas and believes. God, Allah, and any other name describe a bigger power that give love and strength to all without expecting a return...I did question many times what the idea/the hope/dream/believe/faith/or even my doubts brought to my life .
What I know for sure it is ,walking away from God didn't help me for one second.
Why did I do it? because I was angry and because I became arrogant and I thought that rejecting it will take me places and it will make me look more modern, more intellectual and more accepted by groups that did exactly the same thing.
The more I walked away the more I knew that having negative ideas just gave my power away.I was more lonesome.
Instead of investing my power to argue about God's existence I did invest it to do more charity work. Seeing burned kids, sexually abused kids, physically abused women ,parents having kids with devastating sicknesses remind me that hope and happiness was given to me for free through my love for God.I was blessed with healthy and good kids.
That was very comforting and it gave me peace.
The feel of peace it is the greatest feeling other than motherhood! If you are a parent you will know what I mean.If not then you will have a wonderful surprise when you become one!
Stay well and I hope you feel in your heart peace and that you are always loved.
You are loved by this group!

I'm sorry peeps.. I'm a cynic to the end.. no proof, no belief.. blindly following something is not my nature.. people try and justify religion because they're afraid they're alone and their souls will just fade..
I'm not saying you shouldn't believe.. its good to have faith in something.. for me it isn't religion..
In another thousand years christianity might become just myths.. just like greek mythology.. remember.. they had strong convictions like all of you..
me? I believe that you believe but convincing me to believe will take proof..

ok so let's see if I can't perhaps slightly rock the boat perhaps in another direction...what about Cois blindly following evolution with no proof?

annnnd after about 4,000 years odd belief in the God of the bible has deteoriated but increased....I could not believe in a God either without proof...hence my beleif...

To be honest I don't think I know a single human being including b
=Bily Graem of which I have met and have a firm admiration for his love of christ...not even he was able to convince people to commit - it was the moving of the spirit on his platform of evangelism....

and yor right I have absolute faith God exists enough for me to seek him out howeverfor me proof positive...hence why I know....

You can't believe in evolution WITHOUT proof.. if there wasn't scientifically proven facts and evidence to back it up then it would be myth.. make believe stories that children dream about.. things left to imagination and speculation.. endless possibilities for the 'what if'question..
In the end I need not faith when physical evidence is at hand..

and the proof cois? and which topic of evolution you refer to? - sorry to keep so short - but son had surgery yesterday - sliced hand and nerve while sharpening chef knives....in the mean time thanks for the discussion

I wonder if you took a leap of faith if only in the first instance - you would have yor proof of God's existance? well almost short...lol

The proof is in our museums.. the link from one to the other is unquestionable.. of course its human evolution.. man evolved from a ape..

Sorry about your son.. hope his hand recovers fully..

(insert shock smiley) Cois? man evolving from ape? you do know that it is mere conjecture in science that give rise to such a theory? and no scientific evidence of such exists...

You surely did know that there is no missing link? each species unto its own? You may find this site interesting?

http://www.ccel.us/gange.ch16.html

or this

http://www.thedarwinpapers.com/oldsite/number9/Darwin9.htm

and thanks Cois - sons first appointment to the hospital for a check up after surgery is tomoorow so i prayer for postive good result....In my end of the world cool and overcast - and had a few good lines in my head in the wee hours and did not for the first time have my notepad handy thinking I would rememb er - I was wrong so I will have to come up with some other inspiration.... have a great day

I read half assedly through the first one realising that once again someone came up with a theory they sucked out of a few months of research probably..
How can you compare human evolution to cars or radios evolving to television sets? it can't be compared at all as how would inanimate objects evolve?
When we go down the genetic route and look at adaptation of sorts we notice how different races adapted to environments..
So chimps have human characteristics and when going down to genetic level we find they're close to similar..
Back to point.. just because some wiseass said its so doesn't mean it is.. back it up with physical evidence then it becomes plausible..
No evidence equals alot of speculation..
If miracles happened today as often as that time then the bible would be correct..
I think I went way off my point again.. Good night Maree..

I read half assedly through the first one realising that once again someone came up with a theory they sucked out of a few months of research probably..
How can you compare human evolution to cars or radios evolving to television sets? it can't be compared at all as how would inanimate objects evolve?
When we go down the genetic route and look at adaptation of sorts we notice how different races adapted to environments..
So chimps have human characteristics and when going down to genetic level we find they're close to similar..
Back to point.. just because some wiseass said its so doesn't mean it is.. back it up with physical evidence then it becomes plausible..
No evidence equals alot of speculation..
If miracles happened today as often as that time then the bible would be correct..
I think I went way off my point again.. Good night Maree..

perhaps you might like to read my latest poem - link provided at the end...

I absoutley agree when you say Cois - back it up with evidence....and then it becomes plausible -0 so very true - when I was in science class and I challenged the teacher in year 7 or 8 I asked him does he believe it so - he confessed no he does not believe what he was teaching - so I asked why? wy not teach this creationist view - to which he repsonsded he has to teach what he is told....so hence a lie is propagated to a ready made audience that is impressionable - for me that was my clue to break free from what is merely taught as fact without evidence...

I guess the questio for me is how can we compare humanity with any other living creature...we have the ability to mimick and learn as any Mynor or lyre bird, we can learn and pass on information like other birds I have seen on the news that can think and problem solve but hardly makes them my descendants anymore than a resemblence to apes etc

whe we talk of the human race their genetic DNA always remains human as indeed a horse is a horse, a cat a cat - each species unto its own

a monkey is a monkey is a monkey - and so on you get hte idea...anyways I thank you for being my muse today...hope you like the poiece I wrote...

take care

If someone teaches what they're told they're governed by money.. it shouldn't be that way.. I commented there so we'll continue there if you wish?
Good day..

Interestingly, Muslim belief encourages you to question and to ask for proof. Islam teaches up to take nothing for granted. .
.
As for evolution, I believe that it is true to some extent. But mostly scientist have managed to disprove many aspects of that theory.

The rare earth theory is an interesting theory about how strangely unique our planet is.

monring qlue
what is true to what extent? I agree scientists are quickly these days more than ever throwing away old theories....

will check out the link thanks

and probably not unlike christianity where it asks - "search me and try me?"

Cois
governemed by money or authority?

Authority has nothing to with it.. the choice is.. do what you're prescribed to or walk.. there's always a choice to say no thank you but money stops every which way bloke of giving his boss the finger and quitting.. why? fear of unemployment.. the majority of people are in jobs they don't like.. why don't they quit?

hey Cois
just did a google "scientific proof of man descending from ape ancestory) came up zip...

I agree - always a choice - and I asked the science teacher the same thing....but I guess even then only my place to oberserve mans choices and not judge them per say...

however having said that while there is always choice if choice is based honorably to honor ones employer is that so bad?

This is why I'm not a cog in a little machine called life..
You just justified not having to think for yourself as I see it..
I'll look for links sometime..

Cois can any of us escape our place in life? certainly fall short of our fullfillment desig and purpose...

how so? and in regard to what do you make such a statement I wonder?

The only proven aspect of evolution theory is natural selection. In short, this shows how a species with a wide degree of genetic variability can be reduced to a narrow degree of variation in a given environment. For example. a large pack of dogs has equal numbers of dogs with good teeth as it has dogs with bad teeth. The dogs with good teeth can hunt and eat well and produce healthy pups as a result. the dogs with bad teeth are bad at hunting and battle to eat so they produce sick and weak pups as a result. Most sick and weak pups die and the next generation has more dogs with healthy teeth and less dogs with bad teeth. After a few generations, no more pups are born with bad teeth.
.
The problem with this is that you must first start with a creature that has all the genetic qualities of the descendant variations. This does not explain how a single cell creature becomes a multi cell creature becomes an invertebrate becomes a vertebrate and so on.
It is more likely Then that complex life would 'evolve' (devolve?) into a simple life form.

Lets work with your theory qlue..
In the animal kingdom the female chooses the male with dominant characteristics which means the next generation will be bigger, stronger and bettered hunters (if they are lions for example)
This next gen lion is could have bigger muscle mass or leaner making it faster.. after several generations after the (say hundreth) generation would look much different wouldn't you say?
Now take ape and as it evolved.. it crouched but then adapted.. mates were chosen according to how well it hunted and dominance.. dominant males are bigger and so too much smarter..
Each time genetic material were mixed the dominant genes and traits were passed over as to create what we are now..
This can be applied to any lifeform..
adapting is evolving and ape evolved because it adapted to our current form..

Cois how do you feel about the possibility that evolution is "guided by the hand of God, even if the mutation process is random" as described by Darwinian theory??
Joan Roughgarden, a Stanford biology professor and author of Evolution's Rainbow describes it in a wonderful way! I believe you might enjoy this book and see things in a more open spectrum!

I still love the fact that you are only 27 years old and you do wonder. At 27 I was looking what ring and bracelet it is more fancy!! I wish I was more like you! The time will come that you will see what I mean.To your credit you are way more ahead of many young people...

The problem with evolution theory is that in order for previously non existant traits to develop, there must be genetic mutation. All examples of genetic mutation that has been documented by scientist show up in offspring that have birth defects and are hence less likely to survive and not more likely. So genetic mutation has no evidence to support the theory.
According to the theory, simple life is better suited to water but advanced life must live on land. so why did dolphins and whales return to the sea? Both dolphins and whales have the bones for arms, legs, fingers and toes. Yet they have gone back to forms that can no longer survive on land.
As I said before, I accept some of the arguements in favour of evolution but not all of them. Natural selection on it's own would take a lot longer than what even the scientist say the age of the earth is.
The cambrian explosion happened over a few thousand years according to scientist yet mutation would take an estimated few billion years to create a single viable new gene. Somewhere the theory is wrong and untill it can explain the cambrian explosion as being by other than devine intervention, the theory fails the basic science prerequisite of proof.

well ellinidata.. if God guides it then the bible would be wrong in saying man was created with dirt right? I'll have a look see if I can find the book sometime..
My theories and what I know is very limited.. reading and questioning made me come up with what I believe.. gods were created to keep man in check from himself..
The evolution bit can be shot down by any which way scholar with half a brain but does this mean there's no fact in it involved?
If you've noticed my comments you'd see more questions than anything else..
As for being 27.. I've always thought I'm a bit behind my peers for not worrying about material stuff..