My OperaAt This Rate...
By AntonCaptainSeagull. Thursday, June 21, 2007 3:54:08 PM
At this rate, video-games are never going to recieve an equal light in the realm of entertainment. Rockstars new adventure into the realm of horror entertainment is being blocked out of publication due to the "AO" or Adults Only rating the ESRB has given it. Europe as continent has decided that it will not allow sales of the game within it's lands.
What exactly does AO stand for? read more to hear my opinions, and please, make yours known as well... be advised that mature related discussion will take place inside, no bad-words, bad links, or bad images, if any bad-worded comments are made I will delete them, just a mature themed topic. you are now advised...
"AO" =
First, lets get all the cookies on the table. I am going to begin talking about Manhunt 2, the entire reason behind the brainstorm I bring to you today, a bit of an intro if you will.
Manhunt 2 is the unconnected sequal to PS2 and XBOX' Manhunt. Manhunt was a very violent game built in the horror-suspense-thriller genre, that was directly aimed at mature audiences. Manhunt 2 in no way continues the same plot, utilizes the same characters, or even acts as a prequal to the original thriller. Manhunt 2 gets it's "2" from the continuation of a style, a very gritty macabre thriller style that Rockstar set with Manhunt. The kills are brutal, the kills are senseless, and the kills are in no way geared towards younger audiences - hence the Mature rating, as in 17 years old minimum age. Manhunt in my opinion carries with it a higher sense of maturity because the plot revolved around the creation of Snuff films, while Manhunt 2 revolves around the psychological adventure within ones own mind.Snuff is somthing that is incredibly horrible, so horrible in fact that I will not explain in detail what it is within this groups structure, I recognise that this site is unofficialy rated "E" for Everyone. If you wish to find out more on it, I recommend a dictionary or wikipedia search, DO NOT web-search the term in anything like google or yahoo. "8 Millimeter" starring Nicholas Cage also has a plot revolving around this central theme that can educate you on what the term means, without forcing you to experience it, but this movie is also "R", as in restricted to those who are 17 years old minimum.
At first news-break of the AO rating placed on Manhunt 2 I gotta tell you I was a little bit excited, I figured that this industry was maturing enough to enjoy a larger palette of game styles and being 21 could enjoy these fruits. Now when I say maturing I don't mean that it is "leaving the kiddy games behind", oh no, not by any means this industry would be nothing without Mario and KK Slider, in fact my collection of amazing games would be nothing without these brilliant masterpices that are rated "E". I meant mature on the level of accepting that there are different tastes, and different styles that can be explored within this artistic medium, styles that not everyone will love. Let's face the facts, no matter how freaking awesome Animal Crossing is, some people cannot stand it. - Back on track though... My anxiousness though soon turned sour as I realized that because of this AO rating the store I pre-ordered, and fully paid for in advance, would not allow sales of AO rated games. "Awww-maaan" I says to myself, "Oh well, I guess I can get my money back and go to Target"... That to was out of the question, as I was quickly informed that Target, Walmart, K-Mart, also agree with this stance. Well, fart! I guess I could always just order it directly from Rockstar Warehouse! - This also is out of the question.It seems that Nintendo (along with Sony) will not liscense an AO game. Ok, whatever, Action Replay and Gameshark are not liscensed, no big deal. Big deal, Nintendo (along with Sony) will not allow play-back of AO software! what this means, is that if you still somehow got the un liscensed disc into your hands, the machine you own (Wii, PS2 or PSP in this case) will not play it. This is crazy, Action Replay will be ok to play, which actually DESTROYS online gaming because it gives unfair advantages to some players who are matched up against players who are using the set-standards, but Manhunt 2, a game that is single player, owned by the person who knowingly bought it, knowing what it is about (unless they didn't know, in which case they are not responsible adults for purchasing somthing they don't know what it is) cannot play it.
The shops that won't sell are afraid to sell these games because of the press they will get when stupid people encounter stupid mistakes. Momma Suzanne bought 12 year old Jonathan Manhunt 2 out of haste to leave the ViDeO GaMe store without checking the ratings or making any effort to know what her child was looking at. It's a video game, it must be for kids. - Well 3 days later Momma Suzanne returns raises hell, hires Jack Thompson to sue Gamespot for peddling smut to her kids, Gamespot gets sunk with negative press! - This is how our world woks. And it's fair that these companies take this stance, I wouldn't want this rediculous scenario played out with my store either if I owned one. Nintendo and Sony are in the same boat, and Nintendo is in more risk because of their kid-friendly history, change our stories details just a smidge...Momma Suzanne bought 12 year old Jonathan Manhunt 2 out of haste to leave the ViDeO GaMe store without checking the ratings or making any effort to know what her child was looking at. It's a video game on Nintendo Wii, it must be for kids. - Well 3 days later Momma Suzanne returns, raises hell, hires Jack Thompson to sue Nintendo for peddling smut to her kids, Nintendo gets slammed with negative press! Basically retailers and publishers live in constant fear of un-educated people with power. I totally respect and endorse the ESRB! FULLY! if Manhunt 2 deserves an AO rating, than I back that up, this game is somthing that should not, in any way be played by minors. But what I don't endorse is stupidity.
Bringing the industry back into wrapper for a second... Movies = Artistic Media. Books/Stories = Artistic Media. Video Games = Artistic Media. This is exactly where Video Games should stand, by all denominations of logic, but because people buy things without educating themselves before hand will make horrible mistakes, and blame someone else for it - and get away with it. Ever wonder why the HOT Coffee from McRonalds says "HOT Coffee, warning Coffee is HOT", well it's because some moron somwhere ordered the HOT coffee, spilled the HOT coffee, and sued McRonalds because the coffee was HOT. These warnings are on all sorts of things, "Paintballs are filled with paint", "Scissors may cut if handled improperly". I think that AO games should just come with an extra warning, "This Violent game is Violent, This Vioent game may offend those who pay no attention to this warning, the rating, or the seller of this game".So out of fear of stupidity AO does NOT stand for "Adults Only", it stands for "No One At All"
And now, if I ever hope of getting this game a few options are available, and all are drastic.
- Nintendo allows Manhunt 2 with AO rating to play
- Rockstar Changes the games content (Censorship at its freaking brightest!)
- ESRB re-rates the game down to "M" for Mature.
Because it's either that or the game doesn't find it's way into my home, and that makes for a disappointed Seagull, and you don't want to see the Captain of Seagulls dissapointed do you?
What are your thoughts on this?
- Captain Seagull
(42%)
Ace Jon # Thursday, June 21, 2007 4:33:38 PM
"It wasn't the video game that made your child a killer, however it was the shop's fault for not stopping you from buying a game with your child wanting it when they had full knowledge of its content."
Now swap that game for a DVD called "Sleepover", keeping everything else in the situation the same. See, they notify you that the sleepover advertised isn't really for your child at all.
AntonCaptainSeagull # Thursday, June 21, 2007 4:51:29 PM
I agree, with common outlook on assumption that these games will be alright being placed next to other games. Have you ever visited a Suncoast movie store though? I don't know if they exhist anymnore as their parent company went bankrupt. Anyway they sold all types of movies next to eachother and had a section of the Adult movies placed on the same type of shelves but were all covered by black plastic sleeves. They had no problems with this system. Sam Goody had the same system in effect, but they too went under due to money loss.
Also on the fact of assumption, assuming is not education. I endorse educating yourself before assuming that a game will be alright because of where it rests on a shelf. After checking all the appropriate warning labels and checking with a sales clerk, I believe then it's safe to assume what you know is true, then if you find somthing in the game, the warnings do not warn you of, then you have a legitimate case on your hands.
Knut Remi "DrLaunch" Løvlidrlaunch # Thursday, June 21, 2007 5:54:50 PM
AntonCaptainSeagull # Thursday, June 21, 2007 6:19:21 PM
Unregistered user # Thursday, June 21, 2007 6:53:09 PM
Ace Jon # Thursday, June 21, 2007 6:58:17 PM
"I'll buy a game. But first, I'll check to see if I have to rape 10 virgins to continue past lv 3!"
Also, I don't think Manhunt 2 will be a mourned loss for the Wii. It has some good games, and some more ultra ones are on the way. It's not something to get angsty about.
And those who are 17-18+; just because they want it and they can legally get it doesn't mean they won't be disturbed by having to press harder with the Wiimote so the chainsaw gets through the spine.
AntonCaptainSeagull # Thursday, June 21, 2007 7:25:32 PM
Ace Jon: "Why should it be the job of customers to check and recheck everything they buy?" - Why should it be anyone elses job to check what you buy? I'm not saying that this will be a mourned loss, Manhunt 1 had low sales, and most people who play games havn't heard of it. My gripe here isn't just about manhunt, it's about the medium being sencored because people assume things while they act, they don't gather facts. And you illustrate another point. "I'll buy a game. But first, I'll check to see if I have to rape 10 virgins to continue past lv 3!" - I'm not saying specifics, many parents are still unaware ratings exhist! Like I said, after teh warning says in basics "gratuitious violence" "adults only" "18yrs or older" - the game is obviously not intended for anyone who is not of age, an adult, or agrees with gratioutous viloence. We don't have to read the strategy guide first. Now, if you see a game that just says "Violence" on the box, but you find it has mountains of sex in the game, then complain, I will back you, they didn't say sex was part of it.
Unregistered user # Thursday, June 21, 2007 7:34:24 PM
Joel Lutherlutherjw # Thursday, June 21, 2007 10:28:58 PM
/me senses rude e-mail to Nintendo, Sony, and retail game stores coming. They're flowing through my veins.
If a game is rated, which it must be, why can't it be sold? The ratings are clearly displayed on the label, and most retail game stores have a poster describing what ratings mean. Most (sorry to GameStop/EB employees
Best solution: Nintendo stops acting like a bunch of idiots (I can understand Sony; they ARE a bunch of idiots
There was actually a poll on GameFAQs earlier this week (yesterday perhaps?) which asked "How often do ESRB game ratings (E, T, M, etc) affect your purchases?" The choices were:
"I never take ratings into consideration."
"I sometimes choose games based upon their rating."
"My parents don't allow me to buy certain rated games."
"I don't allow my children to buy certain rated games."
"Games have ratings?"
A whopping 72.47 percent of voters chose option 1, I never take ratings into consideration. Sure, the target audience of GameFAQs might have some bearing on the results, but still, that's pretty big. About three quarters of the population don't care about video game ratings. Surely someone has brought this to the ESRB's attention?
Just as alarming as Nintendo's/Sony's policies, retail stores also refuse to sell AO rated games! A list:
GAMESTOP/EB Games
"In addition, GameStop does not carry adult-only games."
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/nys/gme/compliance.pdf
Best Buy
"Best Buy does not carry adult-only games."
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=83192&p=IROL-FAQ
Circuit City
"(Note: Circuit City does not carry games that receive the "Adults Only" rating.)"
http://www.circuitcity.com/rpsm/cat/-16483/edOid/120427/rpem/ccd/lookLearn.do
Wal-Mart
"Wal-Mart, for example, refuses to carry Adults Only titles. "
http://nintendo.about.com/od/gamesforkidsparents/a/vilenceandgames.htm
Target
"Target does not carry "adults only" merchandise."
http://www.target.com/gp/browse.html/ref=sc_fe_l_2_1042122_2/601-9246795-5509756?%5Fencoding=UTF8&node=14306571
Sears/K-mart
"Kmart does not sell video games with an "AO" rating."
http://www.insidemacgames.com/news/story.php?ArticleID=832
Blockbuster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockbuster_(movie_rental_store)
Seriously? What kind of crap stores are they running? They live in fear of Jack Thompson apparently.
Rant over. Strangely, I don't even like games like GTA or Manhunt. I see no point in playing them whatsoever. But if someone wants to ... why not let them? Surely people can tell the difference between a game and reality? If you're planning on killing someone, a game isn't going to make you do it. A game is for entertainment.
Please tell me America isn't as stupid as I'm gathering by this (and the poll numbers for President) . Please.
Anyway, sign the petition, if you haven't already: http://www.petitiononline.com/4manhunt/petition.html
--Joel
PS: Psst. Harry Potter is Satanic! Don't let your kids read it!
Joel Lutherlutherjw # Thursday, June 21, 2007 10:53:05 PM
MY
CRAP
At this rate...... No More Heroes is going to be AO. We'll never get to play it.
Dude, if that happened...
MK-MK # Friday, June 22, 2007 4:46:18 AM
Fact: 89% of the parents I sell games to have no idea what is in the games their kids are playing. They only buy them because the kids want them. 75% of the parents in which I describe contents of Grand Theft Auto decide not to purchase the game for their child. Of that 75%, 65% learned what the ESRB was that day. (Then there are the parents that will go "Holy S***! My f***ing kid will get exposed to bad language and sex?! No f***ing way!" then act like they are the first people in the world to do such a thing)
It's not a question of whether or not someone is mature enough to play a mature rated game. It is a question of what parents want their children to be exposed to. MPAA and ESRB try to help (emphasis on try) parents by giving them a heads up. Everyone raises their children differently. Retailers can't appeal to everyone. There are parents who don't want their children exposed to ANY violence (where Mario jumping on Goombas is considered too violent) to the parents who don't give a flying mousepad what their children do. If people want their children exposed to violent games and movies, go ahead, but they will have to supply them. They might have mature children, they might not. I don't care.
There is no law against a parent buying a mature game and letting their child play it.
The ESRB exists to try to protect/help the parents who do want control over what their children play. I support this, and because I support this, I don't think AO games should be banned from retail.
As far as I'm concerned, Wal-Mart or Best Buy are not raising my hypothetical children, I am, so I deserve the right to choose what they can play (or me, for that matter).
I wonder if they will sell an UN-CUT version of Manhunt 2 online... I would still totally buy it.
AntonCaptainSeagull # Friday, June 22, 2007 5:04:06 AM
Ace Jon # Friday, June 22, 2007 1:33:08 PM
- Successful ones.
Jamesj.bullingham # Friday, June 22, 2007 2:16:29 PM
i believe the fact manhunt was being released also on the nintendo wii, was what caused major concern. because the development team had actually put some thought into how the motion sensor controls could work, rather than just tacking them on like most games ported on the wii. the press were using words like 'murder simulation game'. using the wii remote to make stabbing and clubbing gestures. well why not, if it makes the game play better.
as for the worry of kids playing this mature game on the wii, parents could easily just use the parental control option that's built into the console. also rockstar could add into the game the need to enter a credit card pin number, before you can play. the wii has internet wi-fi built in. i don't know many kids with credit cards! i know the PS2 doesn't have these features, but it could be released on the PS3 instead.
i'm a mature gamer and was looking forward to a more adult game, with good reviews for my little old wii. come on it's all about freedom of artistic expression. yes video games can be art! time to sign a petition, mii thinks
cousin_walt # Friday, June 22, 2007 3:16:03 PM
I'm new to all this talkback-type of stuff but I gotta say I'm thoroughly gutted about the Manhunt 2 furore.
I'm a British gamer with a PS2 and a Wii. I'm a Sony boy at heart but recently snagged myself a Wii and, loving everything that Rockstar put out, I naturally became very excited about the prospect of some classy Rockstar nastiness on the Nintendo.
Once our moral guardians the BBFC kindly rejected MH2 outright on Monday, I thought it wasn't a biggie, as I could easily grab one from Europe. Looks like that isn't gonna happen either.
I was wondering whether it was gonna get an Australian release as they, like us Brits, have PAL systems and there'd be no need for chipping my Wii (or whatever dark arts are involved)? Having read one of the above posts, is it true then that the game is officially delayed, globally?
Sorry about this but I'm just so ****in' angry that we, as mature, well-rounded, educated adults no longer even have a choice in the matter. It's like we're little kids who are told simply "No. That's not for you." Gee, thanks Dad.
And I don't know if anyone knew about the original Manhunt being blamed for inspiring the death of a kid over here? The game was acquitted in the end but mud tends to stick. It's always the art form that's to blame, and never the behaviour of some unbalanced individual is it?
I don't know where I'm going with this but i just wanted a bit of a rant to get it off my chest. And seeing as I can't use my wiimote to get busy hacking and slashing in the privacy of my own room, I guess I'll just have to seek out other avenue of entertainment. Now, where'd I leave them pliers...?
See you in hell, ratings boards!
Dark FurieFurie # Friday, June 22, 2007 3:26:22 PM
For some details on why it's such a hot topic in Britain, check this post out. Hope you don't mind the link, but it's a related story.
As for stores being scared of Jack Thompson (the sensationalist who branded the Sims 2 as a paedophile training tool), they've got every reason to be scared. Now that he's banned from suing Rockstar he'll be looking for new victims.
Ryankakashi-sharingan667 # Friday, June 22, 2007 7:03:54 PM
Dark FurieFurie # Friday, June 22, 2007 7:20:55 PM
Jamesj.bullingham # Friday, June 22, 2007 9:47:30 PM
i think it needs to be pointed out to some folks posting in this forum group, that even though manhunt 2 has been given a rating it still can't be released on a console in any county. so no you can't import it from somewhere else. basically the fact it's received an Adults Only certificate is why, both sony and nintendo will not licence a game for use that carries an AO rating. one reason being most shop retailers won't touch AO material, or online mail-order retailers. can you imagine having to go in some dodgey back street sex shop, just to buy a game! it wouldn't sell that well. it just needs to get passed as a M rating, for mature. also parents should make sure they've set parental controls, if they have kids, and want to experience this game for themselves.
i believe it's got bad press because of a real killing a few years ago. the parents of the victim said that the killer had played manhunt 1, but the police said this had nothing to do with it. it was a robbery, and the boy was unfortunately killed as part of it.
MK-MK # Friday, June 22, 2007 9:49:57 PM
Dark FurieFurie # Friday, June 22, 2007 9:50:32 PM
Jamesj.bullingham # Saturday, June 23, 2007 12:43:03 AM
personally i'd blame the killer, not a game played by the victim.
AntonCaptainSeagull # Saturday, June 23, 2007 5:04:59 AM
Dark FurieFurie # Saturday, June 23, 2007 7:09:18 AM
Changing the subject for a second, I've heard a rumour that there's a Lego version of GTA in the works. Anyone else reckon this is a genius mixing of two popular brands?
Jamesj.bullingham # Sunday, June 24, 2007 12:14:16 AM
i'm completely confused over the game ratings system. as for the guy 'ace jon' saying a few posts above, about how it wouldn't look right having an adults only rated game on the shelves, next to warioware and cooking with mama. well jon was talking a load of bull, because in my local game stores you see 18 rated games like 'the god father' next to these games anyway. also scar face (18) will be along side this kiddie games soon! i'm confused about nintendo and sony's policy not to licence any AO rated games, yet are happy to put their names to a 18 certificate. does the US have a 18 rating, or just mature 17+ and AO. what age is an adult in the states, is it 21? here we're adults at 18.
MK-MK # Sunday, June 24, 2007 12:24:05 AM
AO is for 18+ ONLY.
Dark FurieFurie # Sunday, June 24, 2007 12:30:19 AM