My OperaOsama Bin Laden
Monday, May 2, 2011 11:33:54 AM
“Congratulations, America. 10 years, 2 wars, 919,967 deaths, and $1,188,263,000,000 later, you managed to kill one person.”
No, I am happy he is dead too. The world is really indebted to the government of America and her forces for helping it get rid of the guy.
Yes, the cost has been high, but I do appreciate the perseverance and determination of the American people.
The American government waged a war half way across the world to avenge the wrongs done on it citizens. On the other hand the Indian government simply looks to forgive and forget, not out of nobility or a desire for peace, but because its far easier to do so.
On that note: The guy was found less than 60 Km from the capital of America's major war ally, Pakistan. Just saying....
No, I am happy he is dead too. The world is really indebted to the government of America and her forces for helping it get rid of the guy.
Yes, the cost has been high, but I do appreciate the perseverance and determination of the American people.
The American government waged a war half way across the world to avenge the wrongs done on it citizens. On the other hand the Indian government simply looks to forgive and forget, not out of nobility or a desire for peace, but because its far easier to do so.
On that note: The guy was found less than 60 Km from the capital of America's major war ally, Pakistan. Just saying....
Lorenzo CelsiLorenzoCelsi # Monday, May 2, 2011 11:50:54 AM
Besides, US currently don't need any "major ally" from a practical point of view, given they spend like the whole world together in the military regardless. It is all about politics.
And then we don't actually know what happens in the secret rooms, what are the reasons of wars and so on.
Ben Treinbentrein # Monday, May 2, 2011 12:30:24 PM
Anyway, assuming we've been told the truth, congrats to all.
John ..... (Loku) lokutus-prime lokutus-prime # Monday, May 2, 2011 1:19:15 PM
Originally posted by bentrein:
Ben,I think you must be (?) thinking of Maggie Thatcher, whose popularity had slumped some three years after her election victory but who went to war over the Malvinas and at a very opportune time (few brits in my country had ever heard of the Falkland islands, if those in my then office were typical, and were getting out maps to find out what and where it was) and consequently won the next election with a very large majority.
There the resemblance, for me at least, ends. My feelings about President Obama are the exact opposite of my feelings about ex-PM Thatcher.
Looking at what Lorenzo says, apropos "major war ally" I am in complete agreement. Let me also add that the Pakistan government's attitude/stance, towards the West, has always been at best ambivalent, at worst unstable in support.
Originally posted by LorenzoCelsi:
Everything in History has, largely, been about politics. But in these present days now there is a very clear view of what "freedom" is and why it is worth holding on to and defending. I have the freedom to say what I say here, but if I were in China, say, or Burma, say, or any number of other countries where "freedom" is seen as "rebellion" against the state/religion/system I would not be writing these words (assuming I had access to an outlet) without looking nervously over my shoulder and fearing the worst.
ChrisSlamdex # Monday, May 2, 2011 2:01:12 PM
Originally posted by bentrein:
In what way is it politically convenient? There's no election this year, and the next presidential election is more than a year off.This could hardly have come at a less convenient time. It won't help Obama at all.
Shaunak DeShaunak # Monday, May 2, 2011 2:08:50 PM
Shaunak DeShaunak # Monday, May 2, 2011 2:09:37 PM
Originally posted by Slamdex:
The public have a surprisingly long memory in there matters.
Lorenzo CelsiLorenzoCelsi # Monday, May 2, 2011 5:12:19 PM
It is also strange to read Obama saying that US are not at war with the "muslim world".
Here in Europe we have been at war with the "muslim world" for about 1000 years and it has never ended because in the "muslim world" there is no concept of "peace" with "infidels", at best there can be a temporary truce. But they are taught since childhood that God demands the submission of the whole world to their faith, better if imposed cutting some heads. It is extremely difficult to make a deal with somebody on a mission from God.
We are getting million muslim immigrants lately. In their mind the simple plan is to stay put until their demographics allow them to take control and expand the "muslim world".
So basically when dealing with the "muslim world" you can opt between being stronger and keep muslims at bay or being weaker and be submitted. I don't have any "moral" problem with it.
I would avoid the childish politically correctness but it seems we can't.
Mad Scientistqlue # Monday, May 2, 2011 7:10:09 PM
It seems it is you who would rather impose your personal view on everyone else.
I won't engage in another heated debate with you so I'll leave it at that.
Lorenzo CelsiLorenzoCelsi # Monday, May 2, 2011 8:37:45 PM
To stay on the topic and on this blog location, see if you can explain this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_attacks
And, besides I don't care of religions, you could take a read also here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Current_situation_.281989_to_present.29
Since you named it, there is a chapter about Egypt.
H82typ # Tuesday, May 3, 2011 12:28:19 AM
The key word there is 'terrorists'. Doesn't really matter what religious sect they belong to.
Lorenzo CelsiLorenzoCelsi # Tuesday, May 3, 2011 8:10:02 AM
There were 8 official campaigns between 1000 and 1300 (in case you can't do the math, it is 700 years ago). In 1453 Bizantium, capital of the eastern roman empire, was finally conquered by the ottoman Turks who promptly transformed the biggest christian cathedral of the known world in a mosque. Spain had just been re-gained just before Columbus sailed to America. In 1549 the Turks, after invading east Europe, besieged Vienna, Austria. In 1571 a coalition of all the main christian sea powers met the incumbent ottoman fleet and the date is still celebrated world wide as holiday.
Like I said, continuous effort of re-writing reality.
And, even if the crusades were an act of aggression, you must be very stupid for wanting retaliation after 700 years. But I am not surprised that there are million people stupid enough.
Ben Treinbentrein # Tuesday, May 3, 2011 8:41:53 AM
Anway; responses:
@John: Maggie was not on my mind, but the similarity stays. I'm too young to really have experienced her as a politician (I know who she was, but was not yet politically active during her reign).
@Chris: It's probably not going to save his next election, but it does distract a lot from the criticism that people have been throwing at his him recently.
As for Pakistan being an unreliable ally to the west, you should go there for a change. I'm surprised it's an ally at all! As in, the rich in Pakistan realise the benefits of dancing to the west's tune, but the poor are all in favour of the Taliban. Well, not all. Many.
I've been to homes - back in 1999 - where people said they would be very happy if the Taliban came over to rule their country. "There's no emotional difference between Afghani people and Pakistani," though I'm pretty sure that's not valid for the whole of the country.
This is just an explanation of why they're unreliable as an ally.
Lorenzo CelsiLorenzoCelsi # Tuesday, May 3, 2011 8:53:35 AM
ChrisSlamdex # Tuesday, May 3, 2011 2:48:23 PM
Originally posted by Shaunak:
I would say the memory is far from long. They'll have forgotten about this during the next election.Originally posted by bentrein:
Not sure what you are referring to. Care to clarify?Ben Treinbentrein # Wednesday, May 4, 2011 12:42:00 AM
Originally posted by Slamdex:
Google Alex Jones - oh, no, he's an idiot. Google Donald Trump. Oh wait... Well, birthcertificate issues? Him not living up to the promises made in the election campaign? I think I've heard a few things about that...
Originally posted by LorenzoCelsi:
Fair enough. You misunderstood my comment; of course one needs to know history. It's very important. However, saying this is payback for the crusades is just as stupid. People who don't have history books have forgotten about them. And there are places in the world where they don't have money for history books. And why is it irrelevant; we're discussing the death of Osama, and the consequences. Not the violence he brought forth. Not even who this man was - a former CIA operative.
The way I see it is also so far off topic, I'm gonna keep it to myself.
Lorenzo CelsiLorenzoCelsi # Wednesday, May 4, 2011 8:09:17 AM
BTW, something like that was also done by Fascism and Nazism in Europe. Fascism re-enacted a sort of "hollywood" roman empire and Nazism invented a new roman empire (the third reich) adding a bit of Flash Gordon style. And it wasn't anything new since basically any power in Europe did the same (Napoleon, the English, etc).
Speaking of history, maybe without going 1000 years back we could discuss how contemporary states like Pakistan had been created, what happened since the second half of '900.
And more recently, we could discuss the relations between CIA and the "professional jihadists" like Osama. Because they have been around since the '80s and everybody knew. But at some point they were the good guys. Things started to change around "black hawk down".
Shaunak DeShaunak # Wednesday, May 4, 2011 12:14:20 PM
Since Lorenzo has brought up the Mumbai Attacks, let me make a joke about the incapacity of my own government:
"This raid proves that Pakistan is an insecure nation. They could not even protect Osama.
Look at India on the other hand. We still have kept the murderer of hundreds, Kasab safe and sound"
[For those unfamiliar with the politics of the subcontinent - Kasab, the captured terrorist from the 2008 Mumbai attacks, had been awaiting hanging for a year now. Hence the joke]
Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajmal_Kasab
Lorenzo CelsiLorenzoCelsi # Wednesday, May 4, 2011 12:29:42 PM
Generally speaking, diplomacy, both open and secret, is something we cannot understand, given we aren't informed.
I give you an example: in the past in Italy there were two secret organizations, one was financed and supported by CIA and its goal was to oppose to a possible russian invasion and/or communist revolution. Another was financed and supported by KGB and its goal was to ease the possible russian invasion and/or the communist revolution. We had any sort of terrorism and misterious killings during years from both sides and we will never know who and why.
Ben Treinbentrein # Wednesday, May 4, 2011 3:09:52 PM
Originally posted by Shaunak:
Shaunak DeShaunak # Wednesday, May 4, 2011 7:31:54 PM
So yeah, no government can prevent attacks, but ours is making sure that they dont get in the way.
Lorenzo CelsiLorenzoCelsi # Wednesday, May 4, 2011 7:54:05 PM
But it is almost impossible to do elsewhere. For example in Europe we don't have frontiers among the EU countries so people can freely move here and there. We also have community of immigrants from anywhere, and they come and go on regular basis. The bombings in London and Madrid were made by some of those immigrants, some of second generation (then regular citizens), who had been recruited by radicals.
Then the only option left in such "open society" environment is intelligence. The metal detectors don't make any difference.
John ..... (Loku) lokutus-prime lokutus-prime # Monday, May 30, 2011 11:57:33 AM
daxonmacs # Friday, June 10, 2011 11:03:21 AM
John ..... (Loku) lokutus-prime lokutus-prime # Friday, June 10, 2011 1:26:13 PM