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Correcting The Future

Who Is The Safe Choice For The White House? (Updated May 11, 2008)

I wanted to crunch some numbers just for fun. I'm a Canadian and do not care who wins. I'll state up front that I'm a big fan of Bill Clinton. But I wanted to put my personal feelings aside and see who would be the best choice. I've tried to put Hillary at a disadvantage. Even though I think she can win WA and OR, I went strictly with the numbers with a few exceptions explained below.

Here is the map between the Democrats and Republicans this year where each party is certain to win their respective states. Blue is where both Obama and Hillary would win against McCain by 5% or more. Red is where McCain would win by 5% or more against both Obama and Hillary.

(edit May 11, 2008: Hillary now leads by 6% in Oregon. Oregon is now safe Dem)

(US Map taken from WikiMedia commons.)



I also looked at history to see if there was any chance of these states going to democrats. The only states that I put in red that were less than 5% were Nebraska and Indiana. Indiana has never been won by a Democrat in over 40 years when LBJ won almost every state except the south. So I've left it out since not even Bill Clinton won that state in either 1992 or 1996. It COULD come into play, but it would be very close if it does and we know that Hillary won that primary. It's a toss up at best. IOW, Democrats can't rely on it. About Nebraska, there's simply no way it's going Democrat this year.

So we have 169 electoral votes left in play for both sides.

Democrats need 95 electoral votes. (56%)
Republicans need 76 electoral votes. (44%)

Let's start with Obama. We'll fill in what he is currently winning by 5% or more as well as what he is losing by 5% or more.



He's certainly made up some ground, but so has McCain.

There are now 109 electoral votes left in play.

Obama needs 63 electoral votes. (58%)
McCain needs 48 electoral votes. (44%)

It's basically a toss up so far. Obama can win, but he's going to have to work for it. The outcome is far from certain. The three swing states OH, PA & FL are in play for both McCain and Obama. Obama currently leads McCain by 4 points in PA, but trails by one in the other two.

Now let's add in where they stand in the polls today. The states where there is less than 5% difference. (edit: Obama is now losing WI against McCain by 4%)



Obama falls 6 electoral votes short and loses the White House. Even with either NM or NE, he's still one short. This is certainly not written in stone, but I show the above map to demonstrate that it is indeed too close to call.


Now we look at Hillary's map and add in the states that have more than a 5% difference. (Note that WI & MI are ties in many polls, but we take them away from Hillary to put her at a disadvantage).



Hillary has gained a lot of ground from the very first map.

There are now 60 electoral votes left in play.

Hillary needs 22 electoral votes. (37%)
McCain needs 40 electoral votes. (67%)

Note that I wanted to put Hillary at a disadvantage here. As I said earlier, I made her lose WI & MI according to the current polls (even though it's a tie in many polls). I also put WA and OR in the toss up category. Would KY & MO go for Hillary? The polls say she's behind by 2 and ahead by 1 point respectively. Also, the reason I'm leaving them in as toss ups is because the Democrats (Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton) that have won the White House in the last 40 years won them both every time. In every other case where Democrats have lost, they also lost KY & MO. That Hillary is having a strong showing there should not be dismissed so easily. In any case, I leave them as toss ups.

Here is Hillary's map with the current polls used to fill in the rest.



She wins with 21 extra electoral votes. Note that this is without MI & WI & KY. She could lose either OH or PA and still win. Even with losing FL, she can make up the difference (KY or the combination of NH & NM). Take out MO and she still wins with 10 electoral votes to spare. That means she could lose either OR or IA as well and she still win. Let's show her map without MO & IA.



She still wins. That's taking away at LEAST 5 states that she's winning or is competitive in. Again, I want to put her at a disadvantage to see what she would get.


Let's compare both of their chances more closely.

Here are Obama's toss up states assuming he takes PA.

FL: 27
OH: 20
MI: 17
WI: 10
CO: 9
NM: 5

42 electoral votes to go.

88 remaining.

Obama MUST get 48% of those electoral votes.

MI and WI look like they will go to Obama. (27)

That leaves 15 electoral votes.

Where does he get them?

FL: 27
OH: 20
CO: 9
NM: 5

CO & NM combination is impossible. That's 1 short of what is needed. That would be devastating, no? Coming one short. Though McCain would also be one short. Not sure what would happen in that case. (edit: Congress choses the President and VP, see below). This means for a clear win, he absolutely NEEDS OH or FL to make up the difference. If Obama can't get either FL or OH, he will lose and the polls are not strong for him, especially FL will be difficult considering he said no to a revote there. McCain is ahead by one in each of those states. It's still possible, but uncertain.

So the problem is that ALL his missing electoral votes are concentrated in ONE place (either FL or OH). It's do or die. There's no buffer or backup for Obama at all. He has to win one of those two SPECIFIC states.


For Hillary, she'll have these toss ups to fight for:
WA: 11
OR: 7
NM: 5
IA: 7
MO: 11
KY: 8
NH: 4
CT: 7
MI: 17
WI: 10

22 electoral votes to go. (And WA should not be difficult cutting it down to 11 electoral votes to go.)

87 remaining up for grabs.

Hillary must win 25% of them.
With WA in her column, she needs 15% of what remains. (11 electoral votes to go).

She can win with WA, NH and CT. (22 electoral votes).

(edit: OR is now safely in Hillary's column. If we add WA as well, she needs 4 electoral votes out of 76 (5%). She can easily get CT or NH for the rest.)

Mathematically, it's virtually impossible for her to lose the White House if she were the nominee. WA & CT are already in Hillary's column right now with NH being very close.

OR, MO, IA are also currently in her column.

That's a 47 electoral vote buffer where she can get them from many different locations. And I'm sure Hillary will fight for MI, WI, KY and NM as well.

Worst case scenario is that Hillary wins the White House.
Best case scenario for Obama is a toss up and a fight for either OH or FL if McCain doesn't make gains in PA.

In the end, it still comes down to PA, OH and FL for Obama.

For Democrats, this should be the deciding factor. Who can win for certain? From the facts, Hillary should be an easy choice for the Democrats if the objective is winning the White House.

UPDATE

Check this out. I was flipping through old electoral maps and noticed something strange. Here is Obama's map again.



Now Al Gore's from 2000.



Can you spot the difference? Here's a hint. (I overlapped them one on top of the other)



If that doesn't freak you out, I don't know what will. John Kerry's map is almost identical too.


UPDATE #2

In the event of a tie, Congress chooses the President and VP. The House chooses the President. But there is only one vote per state. Each delegation from each state would vote for that state and the majority from the delegation would be the vote submitted for President for that state. This means whomever has the most states would win. Democrats have 26 states, so that's good news for Obama and Hillary as long as everyone shows up.

For VP, it's the Senate that decides. Each senator gets one vote and the majority selects the VP. The Senate is currently evenly split because Joe Lieberman announced his support of Senator McCain.

If the House is tied, then the VP chosen by the Senate becomes the President. If this were the case, it'd be an interesting scenario as the Senate would be tied. No provision is made to break this tie. Chaos would ensue and the Universe would cease to exist. Even if the House is not tied, chosing the VP with the current Senate is impossible unless Bernie Sanders (Ind.) breaks from the Democrats or if a party member votes for the other side (unlikely).

UPDATE #3 Strategy for McCain against Obama

Right off the start, it should be mentioned that if McCain gets both of MI & WI, McCain wins. Obama can carry both swing states of OH & PA and a bunch of other states like CO, NH & NM and he'd still lose. Not a great way to start a fight for the White House.

I then say McCain should concentrate on getting three states that have low electoral vote counts in order to mix and match with the other states. NH(4), NM(5) & CO(9) should be of prime importance for McCain. At minimum, getting NM would be great because it means McCain can grab either OH or PA and he wins. With NH alone, only PA gives McCain the win, but OH creates a tie (Obama would be chosen President by the House though the VP could be chaos).

If McCain gets 9 electoral votes from NH & NM together or from CO alone, his options get even better. He can add MI to the list of choices. Take one of those three (MI, OH or PA) and McCain gets over 271 electoral votes. Though currently unlikely, he also has the option of getting OR & WI (or IA & WI) instead of the traditional swing states for the win. You could also mix and match two of OR (or IA), WI & MI for the win. Like I said, LOTS of options. Obama has to watch both OR and IA and make sure he keeps his lead. They don't seem to be at any risk now, but if I were McCain, I wouldn't leave any strategy unchecked.

Getting all three of NH, NM and CO gets even more evil for McCain. At this point, McCain can grab ONE of OR, IA, WI, MI, OH & PA. ONE OF THESE!!! OR & IA would probably be out of reach, yet that avenue should be checked out come this November because they both have 7 electoral votes, exactly what's needed for McCain to reach exactly 270.

Say Obama takes all three of NH, NM and CO (Obama's BEST case scenario) then McCain still has a decent chance to win. He needs two of WI, MI, OH & PA. If he splits these states, McCain wins. So holding on to three of WI, MI, OH & PA as well as ALL of NH, NM and CO is Obama's BEST CASE SCENARIO to win the White House. And he MUST make sure that none of NH, NM and CO falls to McCain. That's a tight race for Obama.

Therefore I predict that if Obama is the nominee, you will see a HUGE contest in the following states: NH, NM, CO, OH, WI & MI. If I were to bet, I'd say NH, NM, MI & OH would be prime targets. With NH & NM in McCain's column, his easiest target is either MI or OH for the win. So look at MI & OH for the biggest fights with WI as backup.

McCain has all sorts of diversionary tactics he can use. Really, the only way he loses is if he falls asleep during his entire campaign. When you can win and still leave OH & PA to your opponent, you know you've got a sweet deal.

UPDATE #4 Best Case Scenarios

Obama:



Buffer of 19 electoral votes. That's cutting it close. Other than CO & NM, this is the ONLY map where Obama wins. Lose anything else and it's game over. I don't see how it's possible for Obama to hold onto the above map unless McCain sits home.

Hillary:



Buffer of 71 electoral votes. She could lose ALL three swing states OH, PA & FL and still win with 273. Think about that for a second. Losing would be very difficult.

UPDATE #5 Swing States

Here is a map of the swing states. I then added in who won each of these states in the primaries. Recents polls put Oregon safely in the Dem camp. I also put WA in the safe Dem camp. You may subtract 11 from Hillary if you wish, but I don't realistically see Hillary losing Washington. Missouri was problematic. Obama won that primary by 1%. But it has since gone safe Republican against Obama while Hillary has moved up in the polls. Do I give it to Obama or Hillary? I left it out for now.

In the case of Michigan, I had difficulty here too. Do I award it to Hillary because she's won it by a bigger margin than all the uncommited combined? Or do I give it to Obama who is polling ahead of Hilary? There haven't been any recent polls in Michigan, but I gave it to Obama anyhow. (Update: I have decided to stick with the primary results. Until there is a revote, I cannot change the results. On top of that, you could give ALL the uncommitted votes to Obama and Hillary still won by more than 10%.)



They both start off with 200 electoral votes (added WA, OR & CT from earlier maps).

Note that not all states are up for grabs by both candidates. Obama cannot get KY, WV, FL, NH & MO. His maximum is 89 extra electoral votes. Hillary cannot get CO. Her maximum is 124 extra electoral votes.

Max total electoral votes:

Obama: 289
Hillary: 324

Max margin of victory:

Obama: 19
Hillary: 54 (71 w/ MO & AR)

I don't care what way you spin it, Obama only has a buffer of 19 electoral votes. There are ZERO other states availble to him.

UPDATE #6 Note to McCain

Hey McCain (or one of his advisors), if you happen to read this and you're up against Obama, DO NOT FORGET THIS MAP!!!



Oregon can be swapped for Iowa too.

If you're an Obama supporter (or an SD) and you don't see what's devastating about the above map or don't think it's realistic, then you need to take a good cold hard look at the path to victory for Obama. Sit down and work it out. Don't listen to what I've said. No one will be looking. Prove it to yourself.

UPDATE #7 Hillary's Voters

What would happen if Hillary's voters stay home or vote for McCain?

(Note: I'm not showing the following maps to put down Obama as some people are claiming. I'm showing this to show how foolish it is for Obama's campaign and his surrogates like Donna Brazile on CNN to say that Hillary's voters are not necessary. Both sides need ALL democrats in November. But if Obama doesn't want Hillary's supporters, here's a look into the future come this November if Obama is the nominee.)

Light blue is leans Obama (less than 5% for Obama).
Light red is leans McCain (less than 5% for McCain).

Stay Home: 1 out of 4
for McCain: 1 out of 4
Total: 2 out of 4 (50% of Hillary's voters don't vote for Obama)



Stay Home: 1 out of 8
for McCain: 1 out of 8
Total: 2 out of 8 (25% of Hillary's voters don't vote for Obama)



Stay Home: 1 out of 16
for McCain: 1 out of 16
Total: 2 out of 16 (12.5% of Hillary's voters don't vote for Obama)



Disaster waiting to happen.

UPDATE #8 ccAdvertsing Poll

Not sure as the accuracy of this poll or even who they are, but I thought it would be interesting to update my maps with this new data.

May 12, 2008: I have since looked around at who exactly ccAdvertising is. They seem to be used only by right wing candidates. Bush used them against McCain. Huckabee and Romney have also used them. What they do is ask extremely off base questions to put ideas into the heads of voters. It worked for Bush who used it against McCain in the 2000 Republican primaries. Is McCain using them? I don't know. What we do know is that this company has only ever been used by right wing candidates to push negative polling questions about their opponents. From what I've read, they are effective and often accurate. As you can see below, they've hit both Hillary and Obama in the polls. We can only hope their effect is overstated.

From May 1, 2008 through May 5, 2008, ccAdvertising completed a survey to a combined total of 90,000 homes in California, Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Missouri, New Hampshire, New York, Ohio and Pennsylvania (10,000 homes from each state) extracted from the ccAdvertising database.


I updated those 9 states in my maps. A few didn't change anything. But the ones that did were shocking. I also updated a few states with new polls that came out recently.

We'll show Hillary first this time.



Doesn't look good, eh? She can still win though. She needs to get two of these: MI, WI & IL. These are all polling very close with MI as a tie, so it's a likely scenario.

Well, take a look at Obama.



KAPOW McCain style!

WTF happened there?

Results for McCain vs Hillary and McCain vs Obama.
Scores are how much Hillary or Obama are ahead of McCain.
+is a win for Hillary or Obama.  -is a loss.

              Hillary  Obama    Difference (for Obama from Hillary)
California    +15.82%  +12.88%  -2.94
Colorado      -5.44    -1.98    +3.46
Florida       -11.46   -25.52   -14.06
Illinois      -2.29    +9.23    +11.52
Missouri      +3.97    -10.61   -14.58
New Hampshire -5.9     -6.67    -0.77
New York      +7.88    +1.31    -6.57
Ohio          +1.02    -18.18   -19.2
Pennsylvania  +7.51    -5.95    -13.46



If these polls are true, it's sick sick sick. Hillary retains OH & PA. But Obama is bleeding support everywhere except in his home state of Illinois and in Colorado.

Florida: Obama loses by 25.52% to McCain.
New York: Obama is ONE lonely point ahead of McCain.
Ohio: Obama loses by 18.18% to McCain.
Pennsylvania: Obama loses by 5.95 to McCain with a 13.46% lower than Hillary.

These polls reflect exactly what Hillary supporters have been saying. OH & FL are 100% out of his reach. Working class voters don't want Obama. And these polls show exactly what I've been trying to show. Hillary can lose a few states and still remain competitive. Obama cannot. Without Ohio, Obama has ZERO chance.

I hope this isn't what Obama meant by "Change".

Pushing The LimitsMassively Parallel Code

Comments

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Anonymous writes:

This was very interesting! Thank you for posting this information.

By anonymous user, # 9. May 2008, 11:04:30

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Tony Stark writes:

The superdelegates need to be made fully aware of this.

By anonymous user, # 9. May 2008, 14:21:09

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I think the fact that I took away MI & WI makes this even more striking. I looked at the last polls in March from SUSA and Rasmussen and it's a tie. So there's no reason she couldn't get those states as well.

A new poll today shows Obama losing WI to McCain. If that's so, he has ZERO chance of winning in November.

By Vorlath, # 9. May 2008, 15:36:08

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Anonymous writes:

It's over. She's lost. Get over it. Once she finally sheds the role of psychotic ex girlfriend and leaves the race, the numbers will change. You are dealing with totally flawed data, and cherry picking the results your way anyhow.

By anonymous user, # 9. May 2008, 17:00:32

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I cherry picked them Obama's way. I specifically pumped up his numbers with MI & WI while taking those states away from Hillary. I even took away MO, IA, KY & NM as well. She's competitive in AR in some polls too. And she still wins. If I took away that many states from Obama, it'd be McGovern all over again.

BTW, I don't care who wins. I'm Canadian. There is no "get(ing) over it." I was never under it to begin with. This just shows your irrational attachment to your candidate. I only used NUMBERS. That's all I care about.

My data isn't flawed either. Obama will not get the white vote. He's supposed to have been the presumptive nominee for a VERY long time and he keeps losing. Since February, he's won a grand total of two states. As a Canadian who's watched a lot of elections, please explain how this works? Maybe because I'm Canadian I don't understand how losing is actually winning. Because if he's losing now, how is he going to win in November? Is Hillary stronger than McCain? If so, then that's an argument as to why Hillary should be the nominee. If not, then he's got a serious problem when it comes to winning swing states. What's the presumptive nominee doing losing states at this stage of the game? I want to know. I'll add it in if you can explain it.

Obama supporters need to realise that there are people on this planet who have ZERO involvement and have ZERO stakes in the game. Whatever way it plays out is fine by me. But by these numbers, Obama cannot win in November. You can call it flawed data or wishful thinking, but it is what it is. The numbers are there.

Also, you're only thinking about the nomination. This article isn't about Hillary vs. Obama for the nomination. It's about winning the White House. The ultimate goal is the White House. The nomination and delegates are worth zip in the general election. They are worthless. By your comment, you don't seem interested in the path to victory. Only about getting to the next stage. As a Democrat, you should want the best person who can win. Not the one you have a personal attachment to.

By Vorlath, # 9. May 2008, 17:29:42

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John writes:

Hillary for 2008
:-)
The superdelegates can declare who they want but they'll vote for Hillary at the end of the day. NAFTAgate, bittergate, Wrightgate, Ayersgate, Lapelgate can only stand for so long.

By anonymous user, # 10. May 2008, 06:58:47

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piks writes:

Good stuff. I'm British, reading politics, and watching this fight has been mind boggling. Eg, the US media's love of Obama, which actively distorts what the people see. But it's not just their media though; I've noticed British and Canadian doing the same - but that may be just lazy journalism where they are just regurgitating what they get from US media.

And the blindness, willful or otherise, of the people is troubling. What the hell is going on over there? Is there some legitimacy to the theory that some heads of the Democrats are trying to install someone they can control?

By anonymous user, # 10. May 2008, 09:45:19

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Keith B writes:

I'm Filipino and I don't have a dog in this fight but I am very much interested in US Politics. I have been following the results of the democratic primary fight very closely and am amazed by the total lack of objectivity of the US MSM.

Hillary was at a big disadvantage from the start.

By anonymous user, # 10. May 2008, 11:25:29

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Anonymous writes:

This is great! I did something similar a few months ago, though not as pretty as yours.

I might argue though that Hillary could pick up Arkansas. Bill did, and they're "natives" so to speak - unless McCain picks Huckabee as his running mate, she's got an even chance.

By anonymous user, # 10. May 2008, 13:04:03

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Yeah, I mentioned Arkansas and she will likely win it. As mentioned in the article, I wanted to put her in as much of a disadvantage as possible in order to be 100% clear that she can't lose. Maybe I should make a map for BEST case scenario. I'll add that right now.

By Vorlath, # 10. May 2008, 13:26:14

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Thank you so much for your OBJECTIVE analysis. I can't wait to see your BEST case scenario map. I have bookmarked your site to visit daily.

I find the ONLY objective analysis I can find comes from OUTSIDE the USA. How sad that a US citizen must look outside her country for honest reporting.

Keep up the good work. Hillary is the CLEAR best choice for the Presidency and should be the nominee in spite of all the media bias and bias within the Democratic Party elite who are looking to overthrow our Party with their own radical left agenda. The Democratic base knows what they are up to!

By PaseoDelMar, # 10. May 2008, 14:54:28

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Thank you so much for your OBJECTIVE analysis. I can't wait to see your BEST case scenario map. I have bookmarked your site to visit daily.


Best case scenario is up. Thank you for visiting, but you may want to know that I won't have many articles about politics on this site (my regular readers hate it hehe). As a programmer, I'm interested in numbers and wanted to see what the electoral map would disclose. However, I will update this post as I get more poll information every now and then.

By Vorlath, # 10. May 2008, 15:21:26

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CognitiveDissonance writes:

Vorlath, thank you for putting together a reality based presentation. We definitely DON'T get that from the US media at all. From the beginning, it has been all Obama all the time, no matter what scandals are uncovered about him. I believe PaseoDelMar is correct - we are in the midst of an attempted coup by the dem leadership. Dean, Brazile, Kennedy have practically come right out and said it too many times. Any fair nomination would have to include FL and MI. They have done everything they could to protect Obama from a revote, knowing he would lose those states and Obama would be shown for the loser that he is. Those of us who are the party base can only be depressed at what this will mean in November - a McCain win. Once again, the democratic party will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

By anonymous user, # 10. May 2008, 17:45:20

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Anduril writes:

What they fail to see is that with all the advantages that Obama is getting now with the media, that means absolutely nothing if he faces McCain. McCain will not be as constrained as Hillary was in his criticisms. The only reason that Obama has gotten this far is that the MSM has been totally behind him (w/ the exception of Fox and sometimes ABC) and has been pounding Hillary as "racist" and "divisive" every time that she criticizes Obama - with no platform of her own to defend herself. This will not work against McCain because McCain will have Fox as a platform for his counter-attacks. Moreover, McCain will not fear the AA vote because he knows he doesn't have them to begin with.

Their early tussles already confirm this. In each verbal tussle, McCain has come out on top because he is aware of the tactics employed by Obama camp and he is calling Obama out on his hypocrisy, i.e. Calling for lifting the level of discourse while at the same time race-baiting and attacking with impunity.

McCain has all the advantages in the world - head-to-head, he is more experienced, he is a war hero and he is well-liked even in Democratic circles. Obama, in comparison, is a greenhorn, has never fought for anything, even in the legislative realm, is not well-liked in Republican circles and even has a big problem among Latinos and working class whites. It would be very easy for McCain to dismiss him, as he is doing right now. Remember the statement "The reason he is saying that is because he is inexperienced". That was a knockout statement from McCain that resonated very well and Obama had no effective comeback.

By anonymous user, # 11. May 2008, 01:15:16

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Anduril writes:

What's really striking about your analysis is that it is bending-over-backwards honest and objective. You don't even include the fact that CA and NJ comes into play in an Obama McCain fight. The fact is, a lot of the states ARE in play with an Obama-McCain fight and the scary thing is that Obama has little margin for error.

More than that, Rezko, bittergate, Ayers, Wright - they all come into play and McCain or his surrogates can use them with impunity. Obama has done the same with Hillary - allowing surrogates to attack dirty - McCain can do the same and he has MORE ammunition. That is, if he needs to use them. I don't think he does. The comparison alone will do it for McCain - he's more experienced, he's a war hero, he's patriotic, he is well-liked.

By anonymous user, # 11. May 2008, 01:23:46

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Keith writes:

Can you put their worst case scenarios?

By anonymous user, # 11. May 2008, 01:30:31

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Shane writes:

I like how there a bunch of Hillary crazies pretending to be from other countries and acting like they like Hillary. If you polled the rest of the world, Obama would be overwhelmingly popular. Also Hillary started with every advantage possible (look at the polls from the summer) and Obama has had to make up ground in every sate. Hillary was arrogant enough to assume she had it in the bag before anyone voted, and then she was blindsided by the excellently run Obama camapaign and his millions of volunteers and contributors.

This is a nice analysis but it is in no way predictive. Again look at the polls from the summer and early primaries. If I would have been relying on polls in September, I would have put my bet on Hillary locking up this nomination no problem. Well that's not what happened is it? Things are so much different now than any pollster of pundit predicted. Obama is running a massive campaign to register new voters and he has 1.5 million donors and a lot more volunteers who will work to get him elected. Things are going to look a lot different come November.

And seriously, even if the argument that Hillary is more electable had any validity to it, it's not like we can just give her the nomination and everything would be cool. She has failed to win the nomination, and superdelegates overturning the will of the voters is not what the Democratic Party needs to unite.

On the subject of McCain, give me a break. He's a joke candidate. He supports the war and has aligned himself with Bush in almost every way. He doesn't understand the economy and has proved his obvious confusion about what is going on with Al Quaeda in Iraq and Iran like 6 times now. Once Obama and the DNC get the chance to expose McCain for what he is, he will no longer be seen as a Maverick independent. People will just realize that he is an unremarkable politician who will do whatever it take to get votes and is willing to sell out his own values so he can serve Bush's third term.

Quote me on this and come November, you can all see how this plays out.

By anonymous user, # 11. May 2008, 01:59:58

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Samantha writes:

Kudos for an excellent analysis. I just noticed something even more troubling: electoral votes seem to be shifting from Democratic States to Republican states. When did this happen? Here's the list:

Electoral math vote changes since 2000
(in brief: Red net +6. +8 if CO goes Red):

PA -2 blue
NY -2 blue
MI -1 blue
WI -1 blue
IL -1 blue
IN -1 red
OH -1 red
CT -1 blue
OK -1 red
MS -1 red

NJ +1 blue
CO +1 was red might be blue this time
NC +2 red
FL +2 red
TX +2 red
GA +2 red
AZ +2 red

By anonymous user, # 11. May 2008, 02:04:50

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Richard writes:

Shane writes:

"And seriously, even if the argument that Hillary is more electable had any validity to it, it's not like we can just give her the nomination and everything would be cool. She has failed to win the nomination, and superdelegates overturning the will of the voters is not what the Democratic Party needs to unite."

Pleeease...by the end of this process, Hillary would have won more popular votes than Obama. In fact if you count MI and FL, Hillary would only be behind by 30 delegates at this point. More importantly, the role of the superdelegates is precisely that, to exercise their best judgment and overturn the will of the voters if need be. But again in this case, they won't need to overturn anything, as Hillary would have won the popular vote by the end of this process.

By anonymous user, # 11. May 2008, 03:14:29

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Anduril writes:

Shane writes:

On the subject of McCain, give me a break. He's a joke candidate. He supports the war and has aligned himself with Bush in almost every way. He doesn't understand the economy and has proved his obvious confusion about what is going on with Al Quaeda in Iraq and Iran like 6 times now. Once Obama and the DNC get the chance to expose McCain for what he is, he will no longer be seen as a Maverick independent. People will just realize that he is an unremarkable politician who will do whatever it take to get votes and is willing to sell out his own values so he can serve Bush's third term.


McCain is a joke candidate and yet he leads Obama in the polls. What does that say of Obama? McCain doesn't understand the economy? Well. guess what? Neither does Obama. All of his economic policy pronouncements are carbon copied from Clinton. Pleeease. If there's anyone who is a joke, it's Obama. Remember his plan for Oregon? Talk about an amateur mistake.

Also, you talk about the DNC getting a chance to expose McCain. Shouldn't you be more worried about the RNC taking hold of all the controversies surrounding Obama and playing with it? Wright, Ayers, Rezko, Bittergate, A Fictional Autobiography, Obama's lack of experience (legislative-all bills were filed in his last year in State Senate, executive - absolutely no experience, military-absolutely no experience, even community organizing-exaggerated as recounted by community organizers in Chicago). RNC has so much more material to play with. Do you have anything even remotely comparable with McCain? Rezko is a goldmine, Wright is a gift that keeps on giving, Ayers is a ghost from the past. Are you kidding?

And who is the unremarkable politician? Surely Obama fits the bill.

By anonymous user, # 11. May 2008, 04:59:05

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Shane:

Again look at the polls from the summer and early primaries. If I would have been relying on polls in September, I would have put my bet on Hillary locking up this nomination no problem. Well that's not what happened is it? Things are so much different now than any pollster of pundit predicted. Obama is running a massive campaign to register new voters and he has 1.5 million donors and a lot more volunteers who will work to get him elected. Things are going to look a lot different come November.


That last sentence is your problem. I've shown, and you seem to agree, that Hillary is winning NOW and Obama needs to do a LOT of work. What you've said is EXACTLY my point. Things NEED to change in order for Obama to win in November. But not for Clinton.

What states can Obama get in November? No matter what Obama does, he only has a buffer of 19 electoral votes. What states can he win in November? I just don't see it.

He's hemorrhaging voters at an unprecedented rate. For Obama, MO has gone safely Republicans as is Florida. He has ZERO chance in KY, WV & NH unlike Clinton. The fact is that come November, there are ZERO states available to him where he can be competive beyond what I've shown. It's physically impossible.

All you've got is wishful thinking. There's nothing about what you've said that is based in facts. For example, Obama's lead is attributed to wins in red states that won't count in November. Nothing has changed since last September as far as his chances to win in November. His chances are still the same as they were last year, NIL.

Keith:

Can you put their worst case scenarios?


They're already up. It's the first chart for each candidate. Obama gets 207 electoral votes (63 away) vs. 248 for Hillary (22 away).

Recent polls put OR safely in her column and WA & CT will be in her column as well. So it would be 273 for Hillary (+3 FTW). Her worst case scenario is winning the White House.

As others have mentioned, I did not indicate how CA, NJ and MA may come into play in November for McCain against Obama. So I don't deal in speculation. If the polls start bearing this out, I'll post more updates.

63 to go may not seem that bad. The problem is that he needs 3 of these four WI, MI, OH & PA. The only one that is likely for Obama is PA where he leads by 4. He could keep OH & PA and still lose. If you want a further worse case, Obama stands to lose almost every state including all blue states. If he can't convince Hillary supporters to come to his side, it's a real possibility. This possibility is backed up by 50% of Hillary supporters saying they will not vote for Obama.

You do bring up a good point though. From the first chart, according to the primary results, who gets the most electoral votes? I'll put that up as an update.

Samantha:

Yeah, it is getting more difficult for Dems to win. That's more reason why the Dems need a candidate that has a different electoral map than Al Gore and John Kerry.

By Vorlath, # 11. May 2008, 13:46:17

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Added swing states update #5

By Vorlath, # 11. May 2008, 15:04:36

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Anduril writes:

Shane writes:

"I like how there a bunch of Hillary crazies pretending to be from other countries and acting like they like Hillary. If you polled the rest of the world, Obama would be overwhelmingly popular. Also Hillary started with every advantage possible (look at the polls from the summer) and Obama has had to make up ground in every sate. Hillary was arrogant enough to assume she had it in the bag before anyone voted, and then she was blindsided by the excellently run Obama camapaign and his millions of volunteers and contributors."


I can't speak for the others, but I most certainly am not American. I'm Filipino through and through. The reason I'm interested in American politics is that for me, it represents the next stage of our political maturity in the Philippines. In other words, I am envious of the level of political discourse that you have over there. In the Philippines, politicians don't even bother to come up with campaign platforms - that's how much of a joke it is here.

I followed the primaries closely and I was appalled by the level of media bias and unfairness that happened in favor of Obama and against Clinton. It just doesn't happen even in the politically immature country such as mine. For Obama supporters not to see it is really giving a new definition to wilfull denial.

I agree that Clinton started with every advantage but that was before the media bias set in. There were mistakes in every camp but nothing was really major until the MSM decided to shift their weight and test their "King-making powers". The way I see it, most of the media was incensed by how Fox was able to make George W Bush president and decided to make a GWB of their own.

Just step back and look at it objectively. Had Obama been white, would his "change" message resonate?

He had no legislative accomplishments to speak of. Even as a State Senator, the only way he was able to pass all 26 of the major bills he passed was when they captured the majority of the State Senate in Illinois. There was no "working across the aisle". He voted "present" more than 100 times even on issues that are very important. He never fought for anything, never worked for anything as a State Senator. Each of the bills he passed was named for him by the State Senate President when the latter took him under his wing - to the consternation of those who actually worked to have those bills passed. All of these 26 bills were filed and passed in his last year as a State Senator. As a US Senator, he had less.

As a community organizer, he was more in the periphery. Community organizers in Chicago scoff at the idea that he did anything really significant.

As a "law professor" - he was just a lecturer on three basic courses in Law.

He has never held any position of executive leadership and has never been put to the test.

Now imagine a person with this kind of credentials and imagine the person to be white, or a woman, or Hispanic? Do you really think that they won't be laughed off? Do you really think that Obama is anything more than a media creation?

By anonymous user, # 11. May 2008, 19:50:48

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Akikonomu writes:

To be fair, I think you should also run 3 scenarios where Obama's supporters stay home or vote for McCain. Will it also sink Hillary's GE campaign as well?

By anonymous user, # 12. May 2008, 03:33:49

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Anonymous writes:

LOL, okay a little problem here! Just my two cents! First let's do a worst case scenario for Clinton if 10%, 25%, etc. of Obama's supporters stay home (just for the sake of fairness). Be sure to do a scenario whereas Clinton gains the nomination, and you factor in the ranges of possible fallout percentages within the democratic party. I am guessing a minimum of a 20-30% loss of Obama voters, but you can play around with that as you wish! Next, you also need to have a scenario whereas she loses varying percentages of the Obama vote due to the fall out at the convention (as stated above), AND include the loss of 7-10% of her own voters that admittedly won't vote for her in November versus McCain! (Check the exit polls of PA, OH, and IN!) Certainly, these numbers would be equally important in deciding which candidate is strongest!

Just as an addendum, in states such as OH, PA, NJ, and CT, the white and hispanic vote is fairly evenly split (45-55?),with the white vote typically favoring the republican candidate? Where do the dems make up ground? You guessed it, that non-essential, meaningless black vote! Good luck with that if you steal the nomination from the first black presidential candidate! Every democrat needs at least 85-90% of the AA vote to carry some of these states. Check out Kerry and Gore's raw numbers from some of these typically blue states! Can she win FL with 10% of the black vote? (Hint Gore had over 90%!) Do you really believe she is going to get that in November? Be honest!

Also a little factoid, even within her own camp their is serious doubt she can carry FL! Her own staff admits this! Missouri is also HIGHLY doubtful in November for Clinton, just like Kentucky. This is not to mention it is a possibility she would lose a state such as Wisconsin which is trending "redder" in recent years and possibly Oregon!

I really don't think Hillary Supporters have a clue to the extent that approximately 75% of this country (50% Repubs and the other 25% of the Dems) don't want her in office! This may not be fair, but it is reality. There is no doubt that Obama has an uphill battle, but Clinton would have just as difficult time if not moreso given the fact that she will not only have galvanized the republicans against her but a sizable part of her own part if she is given the nomination.

I look forward for you "new" update electoral maps!

By anonymous user, # 12. May 2008, 04:00:12

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Keith B writes:

Thanks for the update!

By anonymous user, # 12. May 2008, 04:11:34

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Keith B writes:

"LOL, okay a little problem here! Just my two cents! First let's do a worst case scenario for Clinton if 10%, 25%, etc. of Obama's supporters stay home (just for the sake of fairness). Be sure to do a scenario whereas Clinton gains the nomination, and you factor in the ranges of possible fallout percentages within the democratic party. I am guessing a minimum of a 20-30% loss of Obama voters, but you can play around with that as you wish! Next, you also need to have a scenario whereas she loses varying percentages of the Obama vote due to the fall out at the convention (as stated above), AND include the loss of 7-10% of her own voters that admittedly won't vote for her in November versus McCain! (Check the exit polls of PA, OH, and IN!) Certainly, these numbers would be equally important in deciding which candidate is strongest!"



Where do you get a minimum of 20 to 30%? If you look at the numbers, it is the latte drinking liberals that are professing that they are not going to vote for Clinton in the GE more so than the AA's. I think this all posturing on their part. Would they rather vote for McCain rather than Clinton? I don't think so. When push comes to shove, they will hold their nose and vote for Clinton because Clinton is on the left of McCain. On the other hand, there is a constituency in the Clinton coalition that would never vote for Obama - these are the conservative democrats who are just left of center. You see, Clinton is at the center of McCain and Obama, politically speaking. So I don't see a huge cross-over from Obama to McCain. It is more conceivable for Clinton's coalition to gravitate to McCain.

And what about the fallout at the convention should Obama win? What about the 7-10% loss of Obama's own voters who won't vote for him on the GE?



"Just as an addendum, in states such as OH, PA, NJ, and CT, the white and hispanic vote is fairly evenly split (45-55?),with the white vote typically favoring the republican candidate? Where do the dems make up ground? "



You see what you don't understand is that as it is right now, Hillary doesn't have to make up ground. The surveys are showing that she is winning over McCain. It is Obama who needs to make up a lot of ground.


"I really don't think Hillary Supporters have a clue to the extent that approximately 75% of this country (50% Repubs and the other 25% of the Dems) don't want her in office!"


This is pure conjecture on your part.

By anonymous user, # 12. May 2008, 04:32:23

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Akikonomu writes:

Well, anonymous@4.00: then we'd have to run a scenario where 50%, 25%, and 12.5% of Obama's Democrat for a Day voters decide to return to the Republican fold in November. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

By anonymous user, # 12. May 2008, 04:35:09

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Keith B writes:

"Also a little factoid, even within her own camp their is serious doubt she can carry FL! Her own staff admits this! Missouri is also HIGHLY doubtful in November for Clinton, just like Kentucky. This is not to mention it is a possibility she would lose a state such as Wisconsin which is trending "redder" in recent years and possibly Oregon! "

Even granting this unsubstantiated claim is true, it is certainly more likely for Hillary to carry these states than Obama.

By anonymous user, # 12. May 2008, 04:41:23

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Keith B writes:

Akikonomu writes:

Well, anonymous@4.00: then we'd have to run a scenario where 50%, 25%, and 12.5% of Obama's Democrat for a Day voters decide to return to the Republican fold in November. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.


Well said. After all, only the Obama camp actively solicited votes from Republicans just with the expressed purpose of beating Hillary in the primaries without any commitment for the GE. Talk about doing anything to win!!!.

By anonymous user, # 12. May 2008, 04:44:23

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Anduril writes:

"Just as an addendum, in states such as OH, PA, NJ, and CT, the white and hispanic vote is fairly evenly split (45-55?),with the white vote typically favoring the republican candidate? Where do the dems make up ground? You guessed it, that non-essential, meaningless black vote! Good luck with that if you steal the nomination from the first black presidential candidate! Every democrat needs at least 85-90% of the AA vote to carry some of these states. Check out Kerry and Gore's raw numbers from some of these typically blue states! Can she win FL with 10% of the black vote? (Hint Gore had over 90%!) Do you really believe she is going to get that in November? Be honest!"

The truth is, no one is ever going to win over McCain with any significant amount of fall out after the convention. It works both ways. With the Latino vote not voting for Obama, or the black vote not voting for Clinton, both will have no chance over McCain. My guess, however, is that the AA votes are not as inflexible as the Latino votes. The surveys show this - there is a bigger proportion of Latinos and whites who will NEVER vote for Obama. It's up to the party to unite after the convention and with a very big proportion of the party elite composed of AAs, I don't think it would be harder to get the AAs to vote for Clinton that it is for Latinos and working class whites to vote for Obama.

And do you really believe that AAs would vote for McCain? It's not hard to imagine Latinos and whites to vote for McCain if Obama is the nominee.

By anonymous user, # 12. May 2008, 04:55:50

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Eileen writes:

Thank you for an excellent article and number crunching. As a Democratic American it is refreshing (to say the least!) to see an unbiased, objective, straight-forward analysis of this election.

The media here in the States has apparently sold their soul and just will not post anything objective about the election, let alone anything POSITIVE about Sen. Hillary Clinton. She is clearly the people's choice and the only one with any chance of being elected.

There is one site I do visit as a respite from the general biased Obama Media and that is SavagePolitics.com That is the site that led me to your site.

I sent your website to the Clinton campaign to take a look at as a bit of unbiased, objective, journalism and number crunching. We are unfortunately in very short supply of objective journalism here in the States as it relates to this atrocity masquerading as an nomination. Keep on with your excellent journalism and thank you!

By anonymous user, # 12. May 2008, 09:28:19

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Added some new polls that someone posted on TM in Update #8. These polls are simply AMAZING. Or devastating. Depends on what way you look at it.

By Vorlath, # 12. May 2008, 11:41:48

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Anonymous writes:

This is truly laughable, no worse case scenario/fall out numbers for Clinton still? So much for fairness!

All the dreaming, pretending, and number crunching in the world won't bring the AA vote back to Clinton this fall without Obama on the ticket. And honestly in some states she won't need it, but in others that 90% AA vote is crucial versus the republicans who only manage to get their 8-10%. The republicans don't need AAs in their party the democrats do; along with the progressives, the latinos, and the white working class.

Depending on who Obama picks as VP probably will determine how much of the White vote and/or the Latino vote he can recoup in the fall. Democrats NEVER win the majority of the White vote (as stated previously), they just need to keep the margins low so the minority vote can make the difference! Look at Kerry's numbers and Gore's! Both lost by ONE state, without the clear advantage of having an enthusiastic base ready to over throw the republicans. Gore even lost his home state and it came down to FL. Obama's votes/percentages across the board are almost identical to the percentages that Kerry had and he lost by one state! Food for thought! He may lose in the fall, but it won't be by those ludicrous numbers you are suggesting.

This is a follow-up to the person who said AAs will choose Clinton over McCain. Here are my thoughts: I work, talk, and regularly interact with AAs and have several friends. Their consistent sentiment is, they won't vote for her, period. By no means is this a statistically significant number, nor is it implied to represent the entire black electorate, but my assumptions is given credence by the widening disparity in poll numbers and her ever-increasing negativity numbers in the AA community (per the latest polls)! They might not vote McCain, but they won't vote for her. Most likely they will stay home or write-in Obama! If that means McCain wins so be it. This is not unlike the Latino and White voters spoken about earlier. It is more about process than who is more "electable"! I like many of my friends think that far too many people assume that the AA vote will go to who ever is the democratic nominee. Usually this is true, but given the very nature of the race, and the perceived unfairness of the nomination process at the expense of an AA candidate should Clinton win; the dems can hang it up.


This worst case scenario is only exacerbated by the millions of disenfranchised white Obama voters who you just told don't matter, based on some hypothetical electability argument! Remember he actually has amassed more votes than she has, including FL and MI where he is given none of the popular vote from MI's ILLEGITIMATE contest! Imagine if his name was on the ballot! I believe, just like the Latinos and Whites which support Clinton can "live with McCain" since their candidate didn't win the nomination, many Obama supporters (the AAs, White progressives, and young voters) can "live with McCain" if the nomination is stolen from him.

Also of note is that the number of Obama voters unwilling to vote for Clinton is somewhat misleading! This number is generally around 20% and the number of Clinton supporters that won't vote for him is anywhere from 20-45%. Imagine at the convention, the superdelegates say Clinton is more electable and the nomination is hers. Imagine what that number balloons to! We all know it will increase dramatically from 20%! Clinton's supporters are already braced more or less for an inevitable defeat, some may be blowing smoke, others maybe steadfast, but the majority have accepted her loss. And maybe Obama has time to mend some of these wounds with at least some of her voters. Picture the opposite, Obama supporters are expecting him to get the nomination because he has won on all accounts except this new "electability argument." This is at the end of August, I am sure the collateral damage would be enormous, and irreparable with the general only two months away.

And to the person saying that Obama will lose votes to McCain in the fall, this is undoubtedly TRUE! However, his defection numbers is far, far lower than Clintons! Look at OH, PA, TX, and IN! In IN 7% said they wouldn't vote for her in the fall, Obama had a 2% defection rate! That is a 5% difference. Makes one wonder who really won IN. Without those Limbaugh republicans, she loses IN! Check the actual numbers for yourselves. The proof is in the pudding!

Just my two cents!

By anonymous user, # 12. May 2008, 22:43:13

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This is truly laughable, no worse case scenario/fall out numbers for Clinton still? So much for fairness!


Worst case for what? Give me the numbers and I'll put them up. It's pretty obvious the Dems are heading into a disaster no matter who wins because of the nomination process and how the media has handled it.

I put up the charts for what would happen if Hillary's supporters don't vote for Obama for the following reason. So that Obama supporters and Obama's campaign stop telling Hillary's supporters that they don't matter. Whomever wins will need all Democrats and Obama will NOT get them if he keeps calling them racist and insulting them with sexist comments.

All the dreaming, pretending, and number crunching in the world won't bring the AA vote back to Clinton this fall without Obama on the ticket.


AA's don't hate Clinton. That's a media fabrication.

Depending on who Obama picks as VP probably will determine how much of the White vote and/or the Latino vote he can recoup in the fall.


People don't vote for VP. It's trite to try and use this argument.

Look at Kerry's numbers and Gore's! Both lost by ONE state, without the clear advantage of having an enthusiastic base ready to over throw the republicans.


You're not making any sense. First, one state is all that was needed for both Gore and Kerry to lose. The same is true of Obama. And there was an enthusiastic base ready to overthrow the Republicans. Maybe you don't remember the devastation that Dems felt when early in the day, Kerry was leading in the exit polls only to concede at the end of the night.

I work, talk, and regularly interact with AAs and have several friends. Their consistent sentiment is, they won't vote for her, period.


That's simply not true. I've heard stories about the opposite too.

This worst case scenario is only exacerbated by the millions of disenfranchised white Obama voters who you just told don't matter, based on some hypothetical electability argument!


I NEVER said that Obama voters don't matter. You falsely said that. Please don't throw around wild accusations like that.

And it's not a hypothetical electability argument. I've only used the numbers. There is no personal attachment to either candidate here. However, I can't say the same for you. If Obama could win, I'd support that. But he can't. Hillary can. BTW, how come you don't support the candidate that can win in November? Why the personal attachment to Obama?

Remember he actually has amassed more votes than she has, including FL and MI where he is given none of the popular vote from MI's ILLEGITIMATE contest!


Obama REFUSED to have a legitimate contest. So you lose that argument right away.

And Hillary will have the popular vote soon. If not by tomorrow, then by the end of the primaries.

Picture the opposite, Obama supporters are expecting him to get the nomination because he has won on all accounts except this new "electability argument."


This is due to a false image that the media has been pushing. Besides, Obama supporters will either be crushed now or in November. If it's in November, things will be far worse than losing at the convention. At least Hillary can win in November. What's the logic in selecting a nominee that you know with 100% certainty will lose?

However, his defection numbers is far, far lower than Clintons!


Not true. This is whishful thinking on your part. Most of Clinton's defectors are not even in states she can carry anyways. They are mostly red states.

Look at OH, PA, TX, and IN! In IN 7% said they wouldn't vote for her in the fall, Obama had a 2% defection rate! That is a 5% difference.


HAHAHA! So why did Obama lose those states then? You're not making any sense.

Makes one wonder who really won IN. Without those Limbaugh republicans, she loses IN!


Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's a media fabrication. In fact, the exit polls show the opposite by a large margin. You should stop listening to the media. They are propaganda machines. Nothing more.

The proof is in the pudding!


I see you don't like pudding.

Just my two cents!


Not worth a dime.

edit: I wanted to explain why your arguments aren't worth much. It's because your argument is based on pure raw emotions. The truth of the matter is that there exists no map where Obama wins. From what Dean has said, he believes that Obama can carry southern states. Yet, Hillary is polling with near identical numbers as Obama in those states that Dean is talking about. In NC, she's tied with Obama. In VA and SC, she's 3% behind Obama. What does that tell you? At first sight, it might mean that Dems have a good chance in southern states. On second thought, it might mean that Obama's chances to carry southern states are the same as Hillary's (or 3% better). IOW, zip. The dems are going to pin ALL their hopes on winning one or two of VA, NC & SC. None of those states have gone blue in the past 40 years except for NC & SC with Carter in '76. But Carter took all of the South including Texas. I don't see Obama taking Texas.

All I ask from Obama supporters is to show me an electoral map where he wins. I have provided ONE such scenario even though I don't believe he can hold Ohio. Besides, Hillary does better with Obama's map anyhow. Show me a winning map where he wins with more ease than Hillary and I'll put it up.

For me, all I see is candidate X and candidate Y. I don't see names. I see electoral votes. Who wins and who loses. That's it. Everyone needs to put their personal feelings aside and look at the numbers. One of these candidates wins and one of them loses. Personal attachment doesn't win elections. That's why I create these maps in the first place. I wanted to see what the numbers say regardless of other factors.

By Vorlath, # 12. May 2008, 23:15:52

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Keith writes:

"Also of note is that the number of Obama voters unwilling to vote for Clinton is somewhat misleading! This number is generally around 20% and the number of Clinton supporters that won't vote for him is anywhere from 20-45%. Imagine at the convention, the superdelegates say Clinton is more electable and the nomination is hers. Imagine what that number balloons to! We all know it will increase dramatically from 20%! Clinton's supporters are already braced more or less for an inevitable defeat, some may be blowing smoke, others maybe steadfast, but the majority have accepted her loss. And maybe Obama has time to mend some of these wounds with at least some of her voters. Picture the opposite, Obama supporters are expecting him to get the nomination because he has won on all accounts except this new "electability argument." This is at the end of August, I am sure the collateral damage would be enormous, and irreparable with the general only two months away. "



Wounds will heal and any bruised feelings can be pacified. But the more important factor in voting preferences is political leaning. That is why I don't believe that a lot of Obama supporters would jump to McCain. McCain is too far to the right. When push comes to shove, they will either hold their nose and vote for Clinton or in a worst case scenario, not vote. In Clinton's case however, there is a significant portion of her base that is just left of center, which conceivably can move to McCain.

By anonymous user, # 13. May 2008, 17:50:17

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In Clinton's case however, there is a significant portion of her base that is just left of center, which conceivably can move to McCain.


There's something else that everyone is missing though. Obama and his camp have TOLD Hillary supporters that they're not needed. Donna Brazile has said this many times on CNN. That's the whole point about why I put up those last scenarios. It's political suicide. And Obama's camp keeps on spreading insults and sexist remarks. He's insulting the voters on a personal level. This isn't like in the past where you liked one candidate more than the other and the candidates took hits on each other. In these primaries, Hillary voters are the ones that took the hits. Those kinds of wounds don't heal in a few months. They take years to heal if they ever do. And Obama will have to apologise if he wants to make things better. He's never apologised and never will.

By Vorlath, # 13. May 2008, 18:01:02

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Anonymous writes:

This is a great analysis and please some one send this to supper delegates.

By anonymous user, # 13. May 2008, 19:23:40

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SluggoJD writes:

Outstanding analysis!

John Dean
SluggoJD

By anonymous user, # 13. May 2008, 19:31:47

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There's something else that everyone is missing though. Obama and his camp have TOLD Hillary supporters that they're not needed. Donna Brazile has said this many times on CNN. That's the whole point about why I put up those last scenarios. It's political suicide. And Obama's camp keeps on spreading insults and sexist remarks. He's insulting the voters on a personal level. This isn't like in the past where you liked one candidate more than the other and the candidates took hits on each other. In these primaries, Hillary voters are the ones that took the hits. Those kinds of wounds don't heal in a few months. They take years to heal if they ever do. And Obama will have to apologise if he wants to make things better. He's never apologised and never will.


And in contrast, Hillary has been very inclusive. She has not alienated her AA base, it would be easier for her to win them back than Obama winning back the latinos and working class whites.

By KeithBo, # 13. May 2008, 19:45:12

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Kanary writes:

Vorlath, would you kindly provide names/links to the polls you used? Many thanks for the excellent analysis.

By anonymous user, # 13. May 2008, 21:12:52

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http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html

I prefer SurveyUSA. I don't use Zogby at all because they have associations with Obama's campaign. I also discount PPP. Rasmussen always polls lower for Hillary, but I've considered them too. Look at recent polls and you will see that my numbers match.

I wish SUSA did more recent polls out of MN, MI & WI. Those numbers are out of whack. I'd also like better numbers out of Florida. KY has recently gone safe Republican, but I haven't changed anything because Hillary has yet to fully campaign there and I'm not familiar with Research 2000. Numbers always go up after campaigning.

SC, NC & VA are polling higher for dems lately. Unfortunately, Rasmussen polls lower for Hillary for some reason and they don't seem to want to change their polling techniques anytime soon. If other polls reflect this, I'll update it, but Dems still aren't winning these states, so nothing's changed yet. Also, Texas was a toss up in the polls just after campaigning there, so I can't get too caught up in NC and surrounding states being up in the polls at the moment.

I also check this site because they sometimes post polls that are missed elsewhere.

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

By Vorlath, # 13. May 2008, 22:11:05

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Anduril writes:

Zogby is a joke. It's more a tool for Obama than a real polling firm.

By anonymous user, # 13. May 2008, 22:17:37

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The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Obama has zero chance of winning in November. Initially, I just thought that he would have a hard time winning. Now, I'm convinced.

The thesis that the Obama campaign has is that Obama can expand the base by making southern states more competitive. And I actually agree. I think that between Obama and Hillary, Obama would perform better against McCain in some of the southern states due to a bigger AA turnout. The question is, is this enough for him to take these states - not just be competitive. I don't believe that they have made the case for this.

What's clearer is that McCain has put more Democratic states in play against Obama. This means that Obama would have to devote a lot more resources into securing states that are traditionally Democratic. He needs to devote more time in securing his base as opposed to either McCain or Hillary.

All McCain needs to do is to pour his energies into CA, NY, OH, PA and FL to secure a win. He only needs to win 2 of these to win the presidency. Obama OTOH is counting on winning southern states that have never gone Democratic before and whose polling right now has shown no indication that it will ever turn Democratic. This is wishful thinking.

Compared to Obama, Hillary would have no problem keeping these states and securing her base. She has the working class whites, the Latinos, Catholics and women solidly behind her. All she needs to do is secure a win in FL and we will have a Democrat in the Whitehouse in 2009. She can conceivably win MI and turn IL, IN, WI, and AR and this would be a blowout for the Democrats in the general.

By KeithBo, # 14. May 2008, 07:00:28

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He needs to devote more time in securing his base as opposed to either McCain or Hillary.


This is something the Republicans have learned a LONG time ago and why some don't feel comfortable with McCain. They need the base, so McCain is doing everything to get conservatives on his side. But Obama is not doing ANYTHING to get the non-AA working class Dems on his side. In fact, he's doing everything to alienate them. He didn't even give a concession speech. Maybe because it'd look bad for the presumptive nominee to give concession speeches, but not giving one looks WAY worse.

All McCain needs to do is to pour his energies into CA, NY, OH, PA and FL to secure a win.


I somewhat disagree. I think CA & NY should be used as diversionary tactic only. McCain MUST go for OH, PA & FL. There's no question about that, but there's real secret here. What he should do, and what he is actually doing, is going after WA & OR. It's brilliant! Whoever he has on his side actually knows what they are doing. A win in OR guarantees McCain the White House even if Obama carries all 5 of IA, MI, WI, OH & PA. I'm still baffled that the Dems aren't deeply troubled by this. Imagine carrying all those swing states and still lose!

Obama OTOH is counting on winning southern states that have never gone Democratic before and whose polling right now has shown no indication that it will ever turn Democratic. This is wishful thinking.


That's exactly it. You're absolutely right. Why give yourself a tougher time than what is needed? Why go the hard route? Hillary already has the proven route to victory. Obama does not. There's nothing indicating that he can pull this off. Yet Hillary already has the numbers to win it.

By Vorlath, # 14. May 2008, 15:36:16

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Anduril writes:

"I somewhat disagree. I think CA & NY should be used as diversionary tactic only. McCain MUST go for OH, PA & FL. There's no question about that, but there's real secret here. What he should do, and what he is actually doing, is going after WA & OR. It's brilliant! Whoever he has on his side actually knows what they are doing. A win in OR guarantees McCain the White House even if Obama carries all 5 of IA, MI, WI, OH & PA. I'm still baffled that the Dems aren't deeply troubled by this. Imagine carrying all those swing states and still lose!"

Can you create a map to illustrate what you're saying here? That's quite a finding - if SuperDelegates will not heed that, then they would have just sent the Democratic party to oblivion. It would be incredibly stupid of them to ignore this.

By anonymous user, # 15. May 2008, 19:36:53

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I was doing that just now actually. But new polls show Obama's IA numbers tanking. As I said before, McCain can go after either IA or OR. So my new map will show IA going to McCain and OR staying with Obama. McCain IS going after IA. No candidate for the Presidency has ever left IA alone.

I'll post a link to my new post soon. I've created a new blog so my regular readers, who don't like politics, don't see it.

By Vorlath, # 15. May 2008, 19:43:38

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Here's my new article. I created a new blog just for these political posts.

http://my.opera.com/MrPolitics/blog/2008/05/15/obama-numbers-are-tanking

By Vorlath, # 15. May 2008, 21:52:39

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Kyle writes:

Nice analysis, although I agree a previous commenter that polling data may be scewed toward McCain because Clinton is still in the Democrate race.

Your analysis flies in the face of my conspiracy theory that the Republicans do *not* want to win this race; they want to shift the blame for up-coming financial meltdown, disappearance of all permanent artic sea ice (2011), massive government debt and the impending medicare crisis. Any party that wants to lead during the next 8 years is being foolish.

:smile:

I know, just crazy, right?

By anonymous user, # 25. May 2008, 17:41:55

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