Cool Viewer for ATi (Windows) with OpenGL fixes - some more testers needed!
Saturday, 28. March 2009, 12:16:00
[Updated to 1.22.11.0 R3e, this one is now really SSE, made a mistake earlier 
]
You may have seen that I published a new version of the Cool Viewer that includes fixes for OpenGL - that's the system that renders your graphics - incorporating the patch and changes from VWR-12540. Thanks a lot to Luricos for providing these.
After some initial issues I think this viewer is pretty usable now and it pushes graphics performance up reportedly by 40...100% compared to the normal viewer.
Some benchmarks with this one on different hardware:
Intel Core 2 U7700, 1.33 GHz, Intel 945GM, OpenGL 1.4, 14.5 FPS
Intel Pentium M 1.86GHz, Intel 915GM, OpenGL 1.4, 23.6 FPS
AMD Athlon XP 1700+, 1.94GHz, Radeon 8500, OpenGL 1.3.1072, 31.5 FPS
AMD Athlon 64 3200+, 2.1 GHz, Nvidia 8600GT, OpenGL 2.1.2, 70.0 FPS
Intel Core 2 T7500, 2.2GHz, Nvidia FX570m, OpenGL 2.1.2, 93.5 FPS
AMD Phenom II 720 #4, 3.4, Nvidia GTX 260, OpenGL 3.0.0 160.0 FPS
Dynamic test results (60s train ride in Koh Kut, measured with fraps):
R3: Standard Viewer, R3c OpenGL fix, SSE2, R3e, OpenGL fix, SSE, Shadow just for comparison)
ATi (HD4830, 1400x900, Thanks TrasheVyper!)
R3) 1785 Frames, 19 min, 44 max, 29.750 Avg
R3c) 2178 Frames, 25 min, 46 max, 36.300 Avg
R3e) 2224 Frames, 21 min, 54 max, 37.067 Avg
SL 1.22) 1554 Frames, 12 min, 39 max, 25.900 Avg
Nvidia (GTX260, 1680x1050):
R3) 3924 Frames, 42 min, 86 max, 65.400 Avg
R3c) 4617 Frames, 64 min, 91 max, 76.950 Avg
R3e) 4463 Frames, 63 min, 89 max, 74.383 Avg
Shadow) 2615 Frames, 36 min, 53 max, 43.583 Avg
SL 1.22) 3436 Frames, 42 min, 85 max, 57.267 Avg
This means there is a measurable performance gain of about 25% for both, ATi and Nvidia cards. And compared to the official SecondLife 1.22.11.0 viewer it is 35% faster. Reported results in crowded places are even higher (40...100%, but that's impossible to reproduce with always changing traffic).
I'd ask all of you out there running on ATi graphics cards to give this a try and please report your findings back. Nothing to lose, only to win. You can install it in a different directory in parallel to your normal viewer.
Please see the details here, and also please leave your comments there. The version to try is 1.22.11.0 R3e.
http://my.opera.com/boylane/blog/cool-viewer-1-22-11-0-r3a-test-build-with-opengl-fixes-ati-users-please-try
Thankies
]You may have seen that I published a new version of the Cool Viewer that includes fixes for OpenGL - that's the system that renders your graphics - incorporating the patch and changes from VWR-12540. Thanks a lot to Luricos for providing these.
After some initial issues I think this viewer is pretty usable now and it pushes graphics performance up reportedly by 40...100% compared to the normal viewer.
Some benchmarks with this one on different hardware:
Intel Core 2 U7700, 1.33 GHz, Intel 945GM, OpenGL 1.4, 14.5 FPS
Intel Pentium M 1.86GHz, Intel 915GM, OpenGL 1.4, 23.6 FPS
AMD Athlon XP 1700+, 1.94GHz, Radeon 8500, OpenGL 1.3.1072, 31.5 FPS
AMD Athlon 64 3200+, 2.1 GHz, Nvidia 8600GT, OpenGL 2.1.2, 70.0 FPS
Intel Core 2 T7500, 2.2GHz, Nvidia FX570m, OpenGL 2.1.2, 93.5 FPS
AMD Phenom II 720 #4, 3.4, Nvidia GTX 260, OpenGL 3.0.0 160.0 FPS
Dynamic test results (60s train ride in Koh Kut, measured with fraps):
R3: Standard Viewer, R3c OpenGL fix, SSE2, R3e, OpenGL fix, SSE, Shadow just for comparison)
ATi (HD4830, 1400x900, Thanks TrasheVyper!)
R3) 1785 Frames, 19 min, 44 max, 29.750 Avg
R3c) 2178 Frames, 25 min, 46 max, 36.300 Avg
R3e) 2224 Frames, 21 min, 54 max, 37.067 Avg
SL 1.22) 1554 Frames, 12 min, 39 max, 25.900 Avg
Nvidia (GTX260, 1680x1050):
R3) 3924 Frames, 42 min, 86 max, 65.400 Avg
R3c) 4617 Frames, 64 min, 91 max, 76.950 Avg
R3e) 4463 Frames, 63 min, 89 max, 74.383 Avg
Shadow) 2615 Frames, 36 min, 53 max, 43.583 Avg
SL 1.22) 3436 Frames, 42 min, 85 max, 57.267 Avg
This means there is a measurable performance gain of about 25% for both, ATi and Nvidia cards. And compared to the official SecondLife 1.22.11.0 viewer it is 35% faster. Reported results in crowded places are even higher (40...100%, but that's impossible to reproduce with always changing traffic).
I'd ask all of you out there running on ATi graphics cards to give this a try and please report your findings back. Nothing to lose, only to win. You can install it in a different directory in parallel to your normal viewer.
Please see the details here, and also please leave your comments there. The version to try is 1.22.11.0 R3e.
http://my.opera.com/boylane/blog/cool-viewer-1-22-11-0-r3a-test-build-with-opengl-fixes-ati-users-please-try
Thankies
WIDGETIZE
Anonymous # 28. March 2009, 20:37
Not sure what the deal is.
Stops responding near the end of the login process.
XP SP3, Catalyst 9.2 (AGP Hotfix), Sapphire ATI Radeon HD2600XT 512MB 8x AGP.
Anonymous # 28. March 2009, 21:26
(Update) Upgrading to Catalyst 9.3 fixed the problem.
Anonymous # 28. March 2009, 23:36
Wow.
I posted saying I didn't see a lot of improvement in this viewer in the SL forum Boy linked to in a previous post, but after the sim was nice and loaded I got some amazingly smooth camming. I even cranked up the detail levels to their maximum and added Anistropic filtering and Antialiasing x4, just to try it. It was a little lumpy, but probably as lumpy as SL was before attempting this test. Less so since there didn't seem to be a progressive degradation in performance.
A huge performance boost, though I don't have any hard numbers.
Thank you so much for all of the work and effort you've put into your viewer, Boy! It's people like you who make SL so much better. :)
Anonymous # 29. March 2009, 01:18
Just did some tests with this 3a, 3b and 3c versions and an older ATI system:
ATI 9800Pro 128MB, 2GB DDR-RAM, Athlon XP 2GHz (32 bit single core), clean installed WinXP Sp2, Catalyst 9.3:
Coolviewer.exe does not even want to start...though other software (DirectX and OpenGL) works. Reminds me of an SSE2-Optimization problem one coolviewer version used to have with older CPUs.
1.22.11_0_R2 is fine, except for some strange damaged fonts in the menues with that newer drivers... (This is #VWR-4397... and still not fixed).
So back to Catalyst 7.11 and 1.22.11_0_R2
TrasheVyper # 29. March 2009, 01:19
or anyway a fast solution
@anonymous
well try the dna drivers maybie the 8.12 or 8.7 version just google dna drivers and you will find the site they are making custom drivers with 7.11 opengl files
Anonymous # 29. March 2009, 01:58
would the changes have any effect for someone using an NVIDIA card?
TrasheVyper # 29. March 2009, 02:36
boylane # 29. March 2009, 04:01
There are a couple of other issues too here, depending on settings and overlapping with other problems. It should not matter if you have audio enabled for the OpenGL part, but perhaps that's related to some ATi features again as newer cards include an audio component. I can not test it as I don't have an ATi card anymore so I really have to trust your reports
boylane # 29. March 2009, 04:28
Yes, the 3c is indeed a SSE2 version. If you have an older PC you will likely not be affected by the ATi issues as the older driver works, only everything newer than Catalyst 7.11 has the broken OpenGL implementation and newer cards like the 4800 series are not supported by older working drivers.
Anyway, I've made a SSE only R3d version:
http://files.myopera.com/boylane/files/SL/CoolViewer_i686_1_22_11_0_R3d_Installer_%28extract_and_run%29.zip
http://files.myopera.com/boylane/files/SL/CoolViewer_i686_1_22_11_0_Release_3d_exe_xml_only.zip
(This one even seems to be a bit faster than the SSE2 build but that's on Nvidia)
Anonymous # 29. March 2009, 19:09
Sorry, but I just installed this version and it ruined by SL: it crashes at login. How can I fix this? I have Vista. Everything previous version worked fine.
boylane # 30. March 2009, 03:12
Make sure you start it with the included Cool Viewer.lnk shortcut, not the existing SecondLife one.
Anonymous # 31. March 2009, 15:49
This is my first time using a non-SL viewer and I'm really glad I did. My system:
Two ATI Radeon 3870 cards
8 GIG RAM
32 bit Windows Vista
Catalyst 9.3
Crossfire enabled
What I've noticed with this viewer so far:
- Ever since I've had this machine I've had to have anti-aliasing turned off in catalyst or the SL viewer would crash when loading SL. Now with the Cool Viewer I can turn it on 4X with temporal anti-aliasing (in Catalyst) and I do see the results in SL. This alone is worth it, no more jaggies!
- Turning on water reflections still doesn't work for me. I can do it but performance is so bad I can hardly move. I do think this is related to my video cards, as I can use water reflections on my laptop with nVidia no problem. I would really, really like to be able to have water reflections.
Overview:
The subtle changes in the viewer interface that I've noticed so far are all good. Building is a little awkward because the viewer allows prims to be oversized - go beyond the 10m limit - but then they just snap down again.
boylane # 31. March 2009, 16:21
Thanks
The UI is the older, cleaner one from 1.18 and earlier, it gives you more logical access to functions and it gives you more space on the screen. It's simply more user and builder friendly, and I never understood why LL forced the current UI at users without listening, but history is likely due to repeat itself when you look at the latest SL blog postings about "Viewer 2009".
Your last point, you can use CV with other grids, not only SL. And they allow to create larger prims than the current SL limit. Hopefully SL will change that too again in the future.
Anonymous # 31. March 2009, 17:02
ATI 4870 with the 9.1 drivers.
With anti-aliasing and anisotropic disabled this version was slightly faster. When I enabled anti-aliasing and anisotropic my framerates went up? As odd as it sounds at least it worked, and I gain about 10-15 FPS using this version than with any other. It is still not as fast as I think it should be, but this is OpenGL and AMD/ATI (I have problems with other openGL software too) so just getting everything to work and running greater than 20FPS is amazing!
Thank you!
Anonymous # 31. March 2009, 17:36
I'm using the standard Settings for antaliasing in the viewer settings, but turned on in CCP (i have had the same settings for the official viewer too). Now i have round about 30% more FPS as with the official one.
It's really cool, a optimized viewer and RLV plugin together in one...
GOOD JOB!
Damona
Anonymous # 31. March 2009, 17:51
Works great for me, though I honestly can't say if it's an improvement. I run my PC so far beyond spec it's really impossible to tell if lag is Second Life or the AGP bus.
For what it's worth, your new client crashed several times a day under Catalyst 8.12, but once I updated all was well.
XP SP3, Catalyst 9.3 (AGP Hotfix), Sapphire ATI Radeon HD3850 512MB 8x AGP
Anonymous # 1. April 2009, 05:31
"Imagin writes:
....
8 GIG RAM
32 bit Windows Vista
...."
I assume there's a 64bit OS in there to use all the RAM?
I tried this viewer out and every time it locks the computer up as it's Loading World, have to do a hard reboot.
Using the Coolview Link
Intel Q6600
6GB RAM
Vista 64bit
3870 with Cat9.3
boylane # 1. April 2009, 05:39
I've tested it in WinXP as well as Vista 64 and it works just fine.
Anonymous # 1. April 2009, 10:54
I tested that SSE-only Version with and it just gets about 2% to 5% more FPS than the SSE2-Version on my 3GHz Intel E6850 Core 2 Duo Machine with a Nvidia 9600GT and WinXP SP3.
Put in a ATI HD3850 and still got about 2% more FPS or such, so the SSE2-Optimization seems a little bit ineffective. Uhm and with that new versions I get about 25% to 30% more FPS than with that bugged previous versions
Thaaank you Boy
boylane # 1. April 2009, 11:07
Yeah, that's similar what I saw. SSE and SSE2 do not make a difference. And SSE I felt was a bit faster. I tried it as there was some new detection routine for SSE2 but it doesn't do any good. So back to SSE for all
The main improvements with this patch you will see with 4xxx cards, not with the bit older ones that work with older drivers. ATi in the meantime confirmed issues with their driver that hopefully should be resolved in Catalyst 9.4 to come. Stay tuned
http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12139
"Zen Linden added a comment - 20/Mar/09 10:22 AM
Talked to ATI. Looks like it was a problem in the driver of confusing accessing compressed textures vs. uncompressed textures and has been fixed internally by ATI, but probably will not go out by 9.3. 9.4 will most likely clear it up."
boylane # 2. April 2009, 04:44
Anonymous # 2. April 2009, 05:43
It crashes just as it is connecting, every time. If I go to edit, before trying to connect, it crashes.
Bootcamp, XP Pro, ATI Radeon HD 2600 Pro. I upgraded to 9.3 drivers, and no sl client will start.
boylane # 2. April 2009, 06:12
Please download and install the latest R3e version, delete the settings xml files in C:\Documents and Settings\<you>\Application Data\SecondLife\user_settings. Then start the viewer with the included Cool Viewer.lnk shortcut.
Anonymous # 2. April 2009, 06:47
Still does same thing. Dies while initializing multimedia.
Went back to 8.43 driver, same results.
boylane # 2. April 2009, 08:35
You write no SL client at all is working? Please have a look at the "Solid Gold" posting here on the blog, it explains in detail how to do a clean installation. Please follow these steps and install an official viewer from scratch and make sure that you can use it. Afterwards install CV on top of it. Hopefully that fixes it.
boylane # 9. April 2009, 11:09
TrasheVyper # 9. April 2009, 21:41
VBO still causing the triangle broken graphs but now on some objects for 1 sec then they disapear ...well better than restarting the system but still recomended to keep vbo closed and with fbo render True still aa and af not working
Anonymous # 10. April 2009, 10:35
I am so sick of ATI I am just going back to Nvidia...
Using Catalyst 9.4 the triangles of rainbow doom with VBO enabled flicker and stop, which is an improvement, but still unplayable. RenderUseFBO still turns off AA and AF (so no post processing, which also affects City of Heroes and other OpenGL applications).
AMD's continued 'commitement' to OpenGL is just too much corporate lying for me to stomach anymore.
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/VirtualPressRoom/0,,51_104_543~130913,00.html
For all their faults, at least Nvidia's drivers actually work.
Anonymous # 10. April 2009, 18:43
Not sure if this is helpful, but I've been running this viewer on a NVIDIA 9400 for hours with no problem at all.
Anonymous # 11. April 2009, 21:46
I am stuck with an old ATI Radeon 9600 which uses AGP slot so I can't upgrade the card and the new drivers (9.4 onward) are not valid. I have installed the Catalyst 9.3 software and the display is fine generally but SL crashed within minutes of login. I have now installed the Cool Viewer (thank you, Boy Lane). Initially all I saw was the kaleidoscope display but once I turned off the VBO thing this disappeared.
So far (and not very far yet) SL is stable and smooth, even if everyone looks ghostly grey until they come into range.
So I would say this was worth trying if you are in a similar situation.
[Copied across from SL Forum]
boylane # 12. April 2009, 06:07
As you have an older card you could try Catalyst 7.11 which should be the last version with properly working OpenGL implementation. There are also 3rd party drivers that backport to OpenGL from 7.11. Look for DNA drivers.
Newer Catalysts are PITA.
Anonymous # 14. April 2009, 06:51
Update - I tried the Catalyst 7.11. It was better than the 9.3 but still tended to crash. I have continued with 9.3 and Cool Viewer and so far it still works. I even managed to run with graphics on Medium instead of Low, although it was a bit sticky. Will look around for the 3rd party drivers you mention.
Anonymous # 19. April 2009, 14:03
Update - just to say extensive use now and almost no crashes if I keep graphics setting low. I think somehow the official viewer causes the card to overheat in a way that the CoolViewer doesn't - also see comment in Mac Technical Feedback in SL support that seems to support this.
Anonymous # 28. May 2009, 16:24
Q1: Is this still an issue or have the latest ATI drivers fixed it?
I run a very old ATI card, the X300 with 128meg, and I slug around always in the red, way less then 10 fps. If you think Your patches & viewer are still a good move I would be pleased to give it a shot and do some testing....
Q2: That same card flakes badly with the realXtend viewer. Have you ever looked at that code?
I know time to spend a few hundred dollars, but I am stubbron.
Thanks, BTW, great work, on all your product, scripts etc.
JR
http://jeanricardbroek-architect.blogspot.com/
boylane # 29. May 2009, 01:57
1) ATI screwed up OpenGL with Catalyst 7.12 and all releases since. Not sure if this indeed affects your older card but there may potentially be a better performance with an OpenGL fixed viewer. If you look at the latest CV versions there is the full installer which comes with SSE and the normal OpenGL as in the official viewer. There is also a SSE2/fixed OpenGL executable. You can try and compare both directly if your machine supports SSE2 (i.e. older AthlonXP do not have SSE2).
2) AFAIK RealXtend renders things differently using OGRE. That's different from SL. I have only tried it once a long time ago and can't really comment on it. Doing a quick search people reported performance problems in OGRE mode.
Anonymous # 17. September 2009, 03:59
Does anyone have a link to the 7.11 drivers?
My wife currently uses an older gateway laptop.
Windows Vista Home Premium (build 6000)
1.60 gigahertz Intel Core Duo
1 gig of ram
ATI RADEON XPRESS 200M Series
I know it's not up to official specs, but it should run sl with reduced functionality.
From what I can tell, it's the ati card that's keeping it from running.
every version of sl and 3rd party viewers crashes on startup after the first time. first run dies when i click the "you don't meet our specs" message on startup.
any ideas?
boylane # 17. September 2009, 10:06
I would have said try the DNA 8.12 drivers, they backport to OpenGL from 7.11 but are otherwise more up to date. But the official website seems to be down and can't find a mirror (www.donotargue.com).
Normal ATI 7.11 drivers are here: http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=1786