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Scrolling aligned to other Mac browsers (per-pixel scrolling)
We would like to invite you to test a Opera Next build (our development branch) that contains an much improved experience for users of Apple’s touch input devices (trackpads, and Magic Mouse.) This improvement have been much requested from our Mac users.Download the experimental build
We would love your feedback. But we urgently need you to include information about the exact Mac OS version and device used[/url]. Is it a second generation MacBook? or a Magic Trackpad? Mac OS 10.6.4 or 10.6.3? …
This test page will help you provide accurate data.
Do not compare to previous versions of Opera! Compare to other browsers on the platform and applications like the Finder.
Let the testing commence.
7. July 2011, 13:42:02 (edited)
Specs: MacBook Pro circa December 2009.
OS X 10.6.6
Been using Opera since version 4.0 (back when it had ads).
Devices used: MacBook Pro Trackpad and Apple Magic Mouse
Trackpad: The issue with Opera and the Trackpad has always been inertia. I will say upfront, I think this pre-alpha release is a step in the right direction.
I know you said not to compare to old versions of Opera, but I was curious so I tried the Scroll reference page on 11.50. I also tested it on Firefox 5, and Chrome 12. I am not a fan of Safari so I did not test it.
After trying this multiple times in all browsers, trying to keep the power of the swipe consistent, here are the numbers I got:
Opera 11.50: ~5,000
Opera Next: ~1,000
Chrome 12: ~3,000
Firefox 5: ~2,500
Please note that the inertia carries the page to these numbers, not the scroll. It does not stop when the finger leaves the Trackpad.
Using a swipe without inertia (from the absolute top of the Trackpad to the bottom), I get these numbers:
Opera Next: ~500
Opera 11.50: ~2000
Firefox/Chrome: ~1,200
Magic Mouse: The way I use the Magic Mouse is I use a lot of small swipes to get down a web page. After using the scroll reference page, here are the values of the swipes I generate.
Opera 11.50: ~1,200 per swipe
Opera Next: ~300 per swipe
Firefox/Chrome: ~500 per swipe
Conclusion:
Scrolling in older versions of Opera is too loose. Opera Next is too tight. Which, as I said before, I think is a step in the right direction. I imagine Opera wants to create a unified/consistent experience, but I wonder if it would be possible for an editable value to be placed in opera:config and scrolling may be adjusted to one's preferences. Kind of like mouse sensitivity settings in FPS games.
Multi-touch gestures via Trackpad:
One thing I would like to see is the 3-finger up/down gesture changed from Page Up/Down to Home/End. This is how it works in Firefox. If I scroll to the bottom of the page, more often than not, I want to return to the top. For me, Page Up/Down is not intuitive since I scroll up/down in the first place. Not much difference. (Chrome doesn't have anything for 3F up/down at all which is really frustrating.) If for whatever reason this gesture must remain Page Up/Down by default, would it also be possible for a preference or value in opera:config to change this? This might already exist. To be honest, I hadn't looked into it. I was always pre-occupied with the scrolling.
Keep up the good work. I like what I see/scroll.
OS X 10.6.6
Been using Opera since version 4.0 (back when it had ads).
Devices used: MacBook Pro Trackpad and Apple Magic Mouse
Trackpad: The issue with Opera and the Trackpad has always been inertia. I will say upfront, I think this pre-alpha release is a step in the right direction.
I know you said not to compare to old versions of Opera, but I was curious so I tried the Scroll reference page on 11.50. I also tested it on Firefox 5, and Chrome 12. I am not a fan of Safari so I did not test it.
After trying this multiple times in all browsers, trying to keep the power of the swipe consistent, here are the numbers I got:
Opera 11.50: ~5,000
Opera Next: ~1,000
Chrome 12: ~3,000
Firefox 5: ~2,500
Please note that the inertia carries the page to these numbers, not the scroll. It does not stop when the finger leaves the Trackpad.
Using a swipe without inertia (from the absolute top of the Trackpad to the bottom), I get these numbers:
Opera Next: ~500
Opera 11.50: ~2000
Firefox/Chrome: ~1,200
Magic Mouse: The way I use the Magic Mouse is I use a lot of small swipes to get down a web page. After using the scroll reference page, here are the values of the swipes I generate.
Opera 11.50: ~1,200 per swipe
Opera Next: ~300 per swipe
Firefox/Chrome: ~500 per swipe
Conclusion:
Scrolling in older versions of Opera is too loose. Opera Next is too tight. Which, as I said before, I think is a step in the right direction. I imagine Opera wants to create a unified/consistent experience, but I wonder if it would be possible for an editable value to be placed in opera:config and scrolling may be adjusted to one's preferences. Kind of like mouse sensitivity settings in FPS games.
Multi-touch gestures via Trackpad:
One thing I would like to see is the 3-finger up/down gesture changed from Page Up/Down to Home/End. This is how it works in Firefox. If I scroll to the bottom of the page, more often than not, I want to return to the top. For me, Page Up/Down is not intuitive since I scroll up/down in the first place. Not much difference. (Chrome doesn't have anything for 3F up/down at all which is really frustrating.) If for whatever reason this gesture must remain Page Up/Down by default, would it also be possible for a preference or value in opera:config to change this? This might already exist. To be honest, I hadn't looked into it. I was always pre-occupied with the scrolling.
Keep up the good work. I like what I see/scroll.
7. July 2011, 17:01:13 (edited)
This is not a solution at all. The idea is misinterpreted from the get-go.
All you guys did was disable smooth scrolling and made it scroll 4 pixels at a time instead of 40. It is now choppy and it just simply looks laggy, and when you try to use inertia scrolling it seems to max out at a certain speed.
All we ask is that you download Firefox or Chrome, or simply launch Safari and try to use two finger scrolling on those browsers. The difference is night and day.
It seems you guys are not understanding what the users want here. Just try the browsers and scroll VERY slowly. The difference is fundamentally when you try to do line-by-line scrolling. The difference between Opera and other browsers is that other browsers no longer know the meaning of "line position" when using a trackpad. You can now scroll in-between lines. It is that difference, and that difference alone that needs to be resolved on Opera.
EDIT: I forgot my system information even though it doesn't matter since the concept is flawed. 2010 MacBook Pro 15" using the trackpad exclusively. OS X 10.6.7. Compared to every browser under the sun (all of which do it right).
All you guys did was disable smooth scrolling and made it scroll 4 pixels at a time instead of 40. It is now choppy and it just simply looks laggy, and when you try to use inertia scrolling it seems to max out at a certain speed.
All we ask is that you download Firefox or Chrome, or simply launch Safari and try to use two finger scrolling on those browsers. The difference is night and day.
It seems you guys are not understanding what the users want here. Just try the browsers and scroll VERY slowly. The difference is fundamentally when you try to do line-by-line scrolling. The difference between Opera and other browsers is that other browsers no longer know the meaning of "line position" when using a trackpad. You can now scroll in-between lines. It is that difference, and that difference alone that needs to be resolved on Opera.
EDIT: I forgot my system information even though it doesn't matter since the concept is flawed. 2010 MacBook Pro 15" using the trackpad exclusively. OS X 10.6.7. Compared to every browser under the sun (all of which do it right).
MacBook Pro 2011, scrolling is not smooth when using trackpad, it`s only jumping in smaller steps. Scrolling with mouse is extremely slow.
Other browsers and applications are scrolling smoothly.
Can`t you implement scrolling provided by system (on mac)? I think it would by much better solution.
And don`t get me wrong, but I would like to know, how it works on your Mac Daniel. Is it working fine on your machine?
Other browsers and applications are scrolling smoothly.
Can`t you implement scrolling provided by system (on mac)? I think it would by much better solution.
And don`t get me wrong, but I would like to know, how it works on your Mac Daniel. Is it working fine on your machine?
Macbook Pro 15" 2011 Trackpad
I don't know why you disabled smooth-scrolling, I instantly re-enabled it (without it's plain terrible). Scrolling is better than it was before, but the only change is that it is now jumping in smaller steps then before. That's still not the native behavior... every other browser let's me scroll pixel-by-pixel, not in steps of 4.
I don't know why you disabled smooth-scrolling, I instantly re-enabled it (without it's plain terrible). Scrolling is better than it was before, but the only change is that it is now jumping in smaller steps then before. That's still not the native behavior... every other browser let's me scroll pixel-by-pixel, not in steps of 4.
Disabled smooth scrolling in pre-alpha causes "hard" jumping by small steps (trackpad and magic mouse). I think you should use scrolling provided by OS X on Mac version. Windows version can still use your own Opera scrolling. It's probably only and simple way how definitely solve this problem forever. Otherwise you will still again and again tuning your scrolling and I think it never be perfect and bug-free for Apple trackpad/magic mouse...
Please have a look at the videos over at <a href="http://developer.apple.com/videos/">Apple Developer</a>. In the sessions recorded from WWDC 2011 there is a session called "Scrolling, Swiping, Dragging" that explains how those things should be treated. Also a brief mention is given in the "Apple Plattform Kickoff".
Besides this heads-up I was wondering why you can't look at the source code from Chromium and/or Firefox to see how they implement this behaviour. I'm guessing due to the licences but could someone please clarify? I'd be grateful.
Besides this heads-up I was wondering why you can't look at the source code from Chromium and/or Firefox to see how they implement this behaviour. I'm guessing due to the licences but could someone please clarify? I'd be grateful.
MacBookPro September 2009 - OSX 10.6.8. I'm using its trackpad.
Just installed your snapshot on Opera Next. Scroll is smooth but still a bit jerky in some conditions. It's slow, and misses a bit of reactivity. It also saturates my computers' processor to 100%, while hardly scrolling up and down my Finder barely reach 30%.
I also noticed a strange behavior on that page : http://www.apple.com/fr/macosx/
Just installed your snapshot on Opera Next. Scroll is smooth but still a bit jerky in some conditions. It's slow, and misses a bit of reactivity. It also saturates my computers' processor to 100%, while hardly scrolling up and down my Finder barely reach 30%.
I also noticed a strange behavior on that page : http://www.apple.com/fr/macosx/
OSX 10.6.8
2.26 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
13" MBP
I'm getting 4 numbers per tick in Opera Next and 1 number per tick in Chrome.
I also have to scroll a lot more with Opera Next compared to Google Chrome.
Hope this helps - looks like you are headed in the right direction!
2.26 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
13" MBP
I'm getting 4 numbers per tick in Opera Next and 1 number per tick in Chrome.
I also have to scroll a lot more with Opera Next compared to Google Chrome.
Hope this helps - looks like you are headed in the right direction!
It's fantastic how you are putting more effort into the Mac version! Thank you very very much for that. Will test with Magic Trackpad and Magic Mouse and Logitech Anywhere MX.
For now, MBP 15" Late 2008 (MacBookPro5,1), the faster version (better graphics, faster proc, higher unofficial RAM capacity). OSX Lion 10.7 (11A511).
Built-in trackpad: 4 pixels.
For now, MBP 15" Late 2008 (MacBookPro5,1), the faster version (better graphics, faster proc, higher unofficial RAM capacity). OSX Lion 10.7 (11A511).
Built-in trackpad: 4 pixels.
I'm scrolling 4 pixels at a time on my Macbook Pro 15" (Sandybridge Core i7, June 2011) trackpad, using Opera 12 pre-alpha, build 1027. I'm running Lion.
It's better with smooth scrolling disabled but still not ideal. What I take to be ideal are the other three major browsers. Would be nice to see Opera finally get adequate scrolling.
It's better with smooth scrolling disabled but still not ideal. What I take to be ideal are the other three major browsers. Would be nice to see Opera finally get adequate scrolling.
Well, that definitely looks a bit better, but still not as good as Safari. Scrolling is especially jaggy when slowing down, and there's not enough inertia.
13" MBP
2.3 GHz Core i5
OS X 10.6.8
13" MBP
2.3 GHz Core i5
OS X 10.6.8
7. August 2011, 23:06:38 (edited)
MacBookPro 13inch (Mid 2009)
2.26GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
OS X 10.7 Lion
and Opera Next 12 build1042
Scrolling with MagicMouse/Trackpad is better.
The value is about 500-800px when I try to scroll down one screen.
However, if trying with another mouse which has a scroll wheel (non-Apple made), the value is TOO LOW. The value is about 200px.
This experiment is for only improving on Apple's devices?
Incidentally, the other browsers' value is about 1000px on both devices.
2.26GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
OS X 10.7 Lion
and Opera Next 12 build1042
Scrolling with MagicMouse/Trackpad is better.
The value is about 500-800px when I try to scroll down one screen.
However, if trying with another mouse which has a scroll wheel (non-Apple made), the value is TOO LOW. The value is about 200px.
This experiment is for only improving on Apple's devices?
Incidentally, the other browsers' value is about 1000px on both devices.
Macbook Pro 15 inch
2.2GHz Intel Core i7
OS X 10.6.7
Opera Next 12 build 1042
Scrolling with a trackpad is a bit slow but generally not too bad, however with the scroll wheel on my mouse (Microsoft Intellipoint) it's verging on unusable.
From the test page,
Using the trackpad one swipe gets around 800px in Opera and about 1200px in Firefox and Safari
Using the mouse one rotation on the scroll wheel gets around 200px in Opera, about 1000px in Firefox and about 1500px in Safari
2.2GHz Intel Core i7
OS X 10.6.7
Opera Next 12 build 1042
Scrolling with a trackpad is a bit slow but generally not too bad, however with the scroll wheel on my mouse (Microsoft Intellipoint) it's verging on unusable.
From the test page,
Using the trackpad one swipe gets around 800px in Opera and about 1200px in Firefox and Safari
Using the mouse one rotation on the scroll wheel gets around 200px in Opera, about 1000px in Firefox and about 1500px in Safari
Scrolling is definitely improving, for sure you make efforts, but I'm sorry that's not enough yet.
That new scroll' speed get, little by little, closer from what we expect, but there's still something wrong . scroll is scratchy when it's slow, and globally, its speed is not regular enough, depending on the content. Most of all, many pages, especially the ones massively relying on javascript (Facebook not to cite it) are basically not smooth at all, and that's a real lack of comfort.
I hope you'll solve these troubles soon. By that time, I'll stick with Chrome...
That new scroll' speed get, little by little, closer from what we expect, but there's still something wrong . scroll is scratchy when it's slow, and globally, its speed is not regular enough, depending on the content. Most of all, many pages, especially the ones massively relying on javascript (Facebook not to cite it) are basically not smooth at all, and that's a real lack of comfort.
I hope you'll solve these troubles soon. By that time, I'll stick with Chrome...
Is there an explanation in plain English as to why it's so difficult for Opera to implement scrolling on a par with the other major Mac browsers? I use Opera mobile on my honeycomb tablet and old pocket PC and Opera on linux. It's a shame it's not usable on the Mac as well.
Originally posted by molecule-eye:
Is there an explanation in plain English as to why it's so difficult for Opera to implement scrolling on a par with the other major Mac browsers?
Yes. Apple does not provide the appropriate APIs. Which leaves us with a lot of work to re-implement what they have but not offer.
Originally posted by daniel:
Apple does not provide the appropriate APIs
Apple can't do a good dead, which is proved by their horrible products (iPad and iPhone are the only exceptions). Safari is such a, such a, such a horrible browser. For the Mac, oh man you have Mac OS X 10.5, you need OS X 10.6 or 10.7 for this Apple product to work; oh wait looks like you have an old Mac, you need a 2007 or later Mac hardware to have OS X 10.6 or 10.7; you should buy a new Mac.
Windows 7 SP1 x86 edition and Windows XP Service Pack 3.
If you need any help from me with regards to Opera, please make a comment on any of my blog posts.
Support Opera wishes
If you need any help from me with regards to Opera, please make a comment on any of my blog posts.
Support Opera wishes
I have to agree with the others, the scrolling still isn't right in Opera (stable and Next).
In Opera Next, it is too slow (compared to Safari, Chrome and Firefox) and too "sluggish" (as in it kind of "stutters", no matter what page). It doesn't seem like computer performances are playing a role - it's "as bad" on my 2009 13" MBP (Snow Leopard) as on my 2011 15" MBP (Lion).
The scrolling isn't right when using either a mouse or the touchpad.
On top of that, the scrolling speed doesn't seem to be consistent inside Opera. For instance, inside Extensions popups, the scrolling is way too fast - at least in 12.00 pre-alpha b1060.
Now, I'm sure it's not a trivial thing to nail, and I'm convinced Opera is working on it. However, I would personally prefer getting rendering issues/inconsistencies than having to cope with that scrolling annoyance.
Best,
Max
Current specs:
Mac OS X 10.7.1
2011 MacBook Pro 15"
2.2GHz Intel Core i7
8GB RAM
Originally posted by daniel:
Originally posted by molecule-eye:
Is there an explanation in plain English as to why it's so difficult for Opera to implement scrolling on a par with the other major Mac browsers?
Yes. Apple does not provide the appropriate APIs. Which leaves us with a lot of work to re-implement what they have but not offer.
That's a real shame. Might I ask, then, how Google and Mozilla (and others?) have managed to re-implement so quickly? Is it due mainly to having more resources (manpower and/or money)? (I notice that Camino doesn't scroll very smoothly as well.)
Originally posted by daniel:
Aiming in another fix for 12 that should make everyone happy.
Great! Finally Opera for Mac users will be happy.
Windows 7 SP1 x86 edition and Windows XP Service Pack 3.
If you need any help from me with regards to Opera, please make a comment on any of my blog posts.
Support Opera wishes
If you need any help from me with regards to Opera, please make a comment on any of my blog posts.
Support Opera wishes
Originally posted by Swapnil99pro:
Originally posted by daniel:
Aiming in another fix for 12 that should make everyone happy.
Great! Finally Opera for Mac users will be happy.
I'd say almost. There are still native checkboxes and radiobuttons to implement in websites
Originally posted by daniel:
I think we’ve got it now.
Aiming in another fix for 12 that should make everyone happy.
Will let you know when it’s available in a public build.
Nice! Looking forward to it.
Test? Test. Continue testing. Have to test. Test? Test. *itch*
http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2011/09/28/core-bookmark-star
http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2011/09/28/core-bookmark-star
Originally posted by daniel:
Test? Test. Continue testing. Have to test. Test? Test. *itch*
Well so my comment is right?
Windows 7 SP1 x86 edition and Windows XP Service Pack 3.
If you need any help from me with regards to Opera, please make a comment on any of my blog posts.
Support Opera wishes
If you need any help from me with regards to Opera, please make a comment on any of my blog posts.
Support Opera wishes
Looks good! But smooth scrolling is disabled and thus page up/down operations are not animated, and enabling smooth scrolling makes page up/down good but scrolling bad: it seems to start out slowly and then suddenly increase in speed (no matter whether I scroll with inertia or without it).
Best regards,
Chortos-2 (Oleg Oshmyan)
Chortos-2 (Oleg Oshmyan)
I've been searching for the last hour on how to make adjustments to Opera's scrolling. I though this weird, jumpy scrolling was some sort of "feature" but I wanted to change it to just plain smooth scrolling. I agree with others in asking why is this so terrible? I love most of the things I've found in Opera since my recent switch from Chrome but this is really pretty close to a dealbreaker.
The scrolling is better in Next but can someone point me to how to turn smooth-scrolling back on? I can't find where to do this is the preferences. Thanks.
EDIT: nevermind found it in opera:config -> user preferences
Next's scrolling is much better than 11.5. Good job.
~Paik
The scrolling is better in Next but can someone point me to how to turn smooth-scrolling back on? I can't find where to do this is the preferences. Thanks.
EDIT: nevermind found it in opera:config -> user preferences
Next's scrolling is much better than 11.5. Good job.
~Paik
The scrolling is great when on the config page or a page not on the web. But the moment I load any other page, the scrolling becomes incredibly choppy. Opera 12
Originally posted by daniel:
Test? Test. Continue testing. Have to test. Test? Test. *itch*
http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2011/09/28/core-bookmark-star
At last! Brilliant. Thanks for keeping us updated on this thread.
Does anyone know why scrolling in Opera is so lousy on my Macbook Air? It's particularly bad on certain websites. (Facebook is atrocious.) I'm assuming it's a memory/cacheing thing of some kind. This is an 11'' 2010 MBA with 2GB ram, 1.4Ghz. The problem is I think worse with Lion than it was with Snow Leopard, although perhaps (?) I altered some settings on SL that got erased when I updated to Lion.
I've started to use Chrome on the MBA now for a lot of my browsing. Not my preference, as Opera's interface remains the best, but Chrome gives me smoother performance. Actually, it gives me DIFFERENT performance, but better overall. In particular, Chrome takes longer when loading a page before it lets me scroll, but after it's loaded, the scrolling is much smoother than with Opera. Opera lets me start scrolling earlier but then stalls every time I want to scroll down the page.
My best guess is that Chrome loads more of the page into memory then lets you have at it, whereas Opera loads a smaller chunk and keeps having to load chunks every time you scroll. But obviously I don't know what's going on under the hood.
I don't get the same issue running with my MacBook Pro 2.2Ghz with 4GB ram. Interestingly the problem is also there on a 2011 MBA with 4GB ram.
Safari is also smoother.
I've started to use Chrome on the MBA now for a lot of my browsing. Not my preference, as Opera's interface remains the best, but Chrome gives me smoother performance. Actually, it gives me DIFFERENT performance, but better overall. In particular, Chrome takes longer when loading a page before it lets me scroll, but after it's loaded, the scrolling is much smoother than with Opera. Opera lets me start scrolling earlier but then stalls every time I want to scroll down the page.
My best guess is that Chrome loads more of the page into memory then lets you have at it, whereas Opera loads a smaller chunk and keeps having to load chunks every time you scroll. But obviously I don't know what's going on under the hood.
I don't get the same issue running with my MacBook Pro 2.2Ghz with 4GB ram. Interestingly the problem is also there on a 2011 MBA with 4GB ram.
Safari is also smoother.
The scrolling performance on sites like facebook is an issue with position:fixed elements (like the sidebar at Facebook). It's known and being worked on.
Also, for smooth scrolling make sure smooth scrolling is turned off
Also, for smooth scrolling make sure smooth scrolling is turned off
So this is now working on Macs?
As stated here, Windows users suffer form the same issue: http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=545891&t=1328542462&page=1#comment8428862
Is it possible to extend this thread into the Windows-forum?
As stated here, Windows users suffer form the same issue: http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=545891&t=1328542462&page=1#comment8428862
Is it possible to extend this thread into the Windows-forum?