Occupy Wall Street protests not valid?

Is it ok for police to pepper spray peaceful protesters and then walk away?



Oh, and the media hardly covers the protests themselves, much less this so there's only youtube.

No I don't think it is right to pepper spray in that situation. It is hardly phenomenal masses. The fact that Wall Street is a protected species only belies the fact the country is actually run from there. Anything else is a front. They caused the crisis but it is the ordinary who suffer whilst they get away with daylight robbery inckluding of the peoples' taxes.

Same cop did it again.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

No I don't think it is right to pepper spray in that situation. It is hardly phenomenal masses. The fact that Wall Street is a protected species only belies the fact the country is actually run from there. Anything else is a front. They caused the crisis but it is the ordinary who suffer whilst they get away with daylight robbery inckluding of the peoples' taxes.

Nonsense RJ. That could never be true in the Land of the Free(tm)

Originally posted by Muttsfan:

Originally posted by rjhowie:

No I don't think it is right to pepper spray in that situation. It is hardly phenomenal masses. The fact that Wall Street is a protected species only belies the fact the country is actually run from there. Anything else is a front. They caused the crisis but it is the ordinary who suffer whilst they get away with daylight robbery inckluding of the peoples' taxes.

Nonsense RJ. That could never be true in the Land of the Free(tm)

Never. An impossibility.

The protests are spreading and yet the banks are so out of touch that they're raising fees.

It is the banks who have created much of the present crisis. When you think of the vast numbers of people having lives ruined whilst Wall Street Barons get away with anything and often with tax-payers money they should damn well spread. After all it is those same Barons who run the country and the lot on the Hill are just their lackeys. It is a superficial system to keep the children happy.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

It is the banks who have created much of the present crisis.

Then congress and the President Bush bailed them out (yes, SF and company, that was Bush) Now there are massive foreclosures, etc. Around here, there's something like 45,000 unsold homes, many of the foreclosed; others not technically foreclosed yet, but people had to walk away from their property (just as my neighbor across the street.)

Meanwhile, the arrests mount:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/02/us-wallstreet-protests-idUSTRE7900BL20111002

(Reuters) - Police reopened the Brooklyn Bridge Saturday evening after more than 700 anti-Wall Street protesters were arrested for blocking traffic lanes and attempting an unauthorized march across the span.

The arrests took place when a large group of marchers, participating in a second week of protests by the Occupy Wall Street movement, broke off from others on the bridge's pedestrian walkway and headed across the Brooklyn-bound lanes.

"Over 700 summonses and desk appearance tickets have been issued in connection with a demonstration on the Brooklyn Bridge late this afternoon after multiple warnings by police were given to protesters to stay on the pedestrian walkway, and that if they took roadway they would be arrested," a police spokesman said..

.....

Every city indicated by a dot is where the protests have spread. The map isn't completely upto date, though. For example, there's a protest planned fro Reno, but only Las Vegas is indicated in Nevada.

I know that the sun raises at East, what I never expected is on how long does it takes to illuminate the West.... European movements copied by these have already vanished months ago.
Only now they've realised that a bunch of idiots, paid with social benefits, are always an excellent opportunity to drive attentions away from what really counts. They even are considered originals...
Delights of democracy. Again and again and again.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

It is the banks who have created much of the present crisis. When you think of the vast numbers of people having lives ruined whilst Wall Street Barons get away with anything and often with tax-payers money they should damn well spread. After all it is those same Barons who run the country and the lot on the Hill are just their lackeys. It is a superficial system to keep the children happy.

A very apt anology. This so-called "free market" stuff has become an orwellian expression and analogous to feudal society. Only difference today is the pretense of liberty on the surface.

With that said, I'm not naive enough to believe peaceful protests alone are going to solve the problem of wall street. These protests will either get shut down or will get more forceful. I predict they will be shut down like they were in Wisconsin. Remember, the elite subculture being legally protested against are the ones that define legal for their troops of lapdogs to enforce.

The media is openly against these protests as legitimate. Remember that the last tea party protest that was covered by the MSM was a protest of 24 people. This one starting with 1000 or more (which has since grown) was ignored by the MSM for weeks. Now we have so-called moderate rags mocking them as hippies, etc.

Rather sadly xyzoneon the main thrust of your comment is true. The mass media is hardly a balanced act whether tv or newspapers as they are in the hands of the same Baronial class. That the power and money control is now in fewer and fewer hands and getting worse there is no end in sight. Now that concise power is in the smallest upper enchelons than at any time in the country's history. Banks have been allowed to get away with anything by deliberate action on their part. Theyare still in powewr whilst a million a year lose their homes, nearly half the country depends on government aid and one in seven on food stamps. Unemployment could reach 10% easily. None of this effects these financial criminals at all remember. The police will be sent out to shut protests down of course and many will wonder how this fares with the belief in rights before the law? And just think who it is that gets paid for printing the damn food stamps into the bargain! If ever a country was misused and it's people this is a terrible example. Lack of control and supervision as well as corporate greed have ruled the day.

Now the Occupy protests have been a new American export.

(CNN) -- Wall Street is more than 10,000 miles away from Melbourne, but 24-year-old Australian Alex Gard felt a kinship to the outrage expressed on the streets of Manhattan.
"It's great that people are finally standing up against the privileged few people who want to rule together," Gard said. "I wanted to stand together and say, `Enough is enough'."
Gard is one of the organizers of "Occupy Melbourne," a group that started on Facebook that now has more than 2,000 members with plans to protest on October 15 in City Square. Similar calls have sprung up around Australia: "Occupy Brisbane," "Occupy Perth," and "Occupy Sydney."

...

Some protest pages show only a few dozen will attend; others have thousands. Protest pages in Spain and Italy -- two countries hard hit by the financial crisis and subsequent European Union debt woes -- have the largest Facebook attendees so far, with 42,410 and 20,568, respectively.
Sanders: 'I applaud Wall Street protests'
"Occupy Wall Street" began on September 17 and is now spreading to cities across the U.S. The demonstrations, inspired by the Arab Spring protest movement, are against economic inequality and power vested in the top 1% income earners. Its rallying cry, "We are the 99 percent," is now being picked up by groups around the globe.
Wall St. protests grow amid debt crisis
"Occupy the London Stock Exchange" -- referring to Europe's largest bourse and the world's fourth largest exchange outside of New York and Tokyo -- has more than 6,000 followers.

What the conservative press tried to dismiss as a couple dozen loonies as spread across the globe.

"Look, Australia's not the worst place in the world, but we're seeing banks recording record profits, rental has been crazy, housing prices are going up and up," Gar said. "Indigenous people are being moved off their own land for the sake of mining companies ... everything is building up to a boiling point.

The discontent has reached the boiling point indeed, even if some of the specific issues downunder are different.

In Vegas . I'm voting for in front of the Bank of America building.

I think that at last having an Autumn Spring string in America is a very encouraging thing and long overdue for the suffering millions who must be frustrated beyond belief?

This is what happens when somebody that can articulate the Occupy Wall Street movement mistakingly gets interviewed by pretend news:



The interview never aired on Foxnews and is only available on the internet.

See, Erin Burnett from CNN. That's the kind of person you air when you slam this movement. I wonder how many of these people you skipped over the mactard interview that you aired (no offense to mactards )

Who-o boy! Can that feller articulate! Why, he's even got opposable thumbs…

And it goes to show the control there is in the land of the free which I have always said covers the media moguls as well as the financial Barons. Just 1% control the country. Boy wasn't the revolution successful!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Just 1% control the country. Boy wasn't the revolution successful!

I'm guessing you missed the bit where the protests have spread to Scotland. Why, Glasgow itself is slated for occupation, as you can see . Go ahead and sign up, because clearly your goal is social justice and not just being childish and snarky towards America. Mr, Howie, 1776 was a long time ago. Maybe you can get over it. Then again, you seem to have difficulty getting over things that happened in the 17th century

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Why, Glasgow itself is slated for occupation {…]

Besides howie himself, who'd want to? But, seriously, let's ask the question after howie moves…
But I take it, Sang, that you mean idiots who have nothing else to do will "hang out" everywhere… Could they –had they any skills and ambition– have done something more constructive? Depends.
Are they Democrats? (They'll be discouraged…)

Off with their heads.

according to a news site the protest has spread in 1.000 US citites ( http://www.presstv.com/detail/203553.html )

Very elementary attempt to shift away from the point. In passing that link is to nothing actually. So pointless. Indeed we ceased to have an independent Stick Exchange a long time ago so ther is no Wall St in Glasgow. Considering your country was founded by the monied class and involved a third of people the minority controlling America has narrowed continually ever since. Now it is 1% controlling the money supply so you seem very ignorant of basic things. The percentage has been gradually whittled down and the poor saps over there cannot see who runs the place. It isnin't the politicians they are in hock to the big money lot. You were founded by corporate interests and the fig-leaf of taxes - odd that one as you lot are still fighting it out today! Don't you celebrate that 18th century event every year? So very relevant. You cannot get to admitting that it is money people who run your country and the leser off and poor can go to blazes. It's their own fault don't you know?! Having been founded therefor by the rich and them having controlled it ever since my commentsare relevant. OakdaleFTL etc can come out with their witticisms and rollness but it is chaff. Talk about a childish knowledge.

One thing is certain when it comes to comparison and it is never be poor in the ex-colonies it is desperate. No Welfare State, free at the point health and so on. That you blithely chose to ignore that select wee group of 1% who are doing the running is beyond me.

Originally posted by OakdaleFTL:

Besides howie himself, who'd want to? But, seriously, let's ask the question after howie moves…

I imagine the same type disenchanted people that having been turning out by the hundreds and thousands turning out for the other protests. This is part of what I mean by you having absolutely no concept.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Now it is 1% controlling the money supply so you seem very ignorant of basic things. The percentage has been gradually whittled down and the poor saps over there cannot see who runs the place. It isnin't the politicians they are in hock to the big money lot.

And yet the protests erupt in Britain and continental Europe as well. In fact, the poverty is some greater in the UK than in the US . I know America has serious problems, otherwise the protests wouldn't have started here in the first place. I'm questioning your reasoning that the UK is so much better than the US. You think your country isn't run by the monied class doesn't experience epidemic political corruption? I know mine does. You seem to be unable to acknowledge the corruption happens in yours.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

OakdaleFTL etc can come out with their witticisms and rollness but it is chaff.

That's all he's capable of.

This is been brewing for a while.



In this case, Bank of America would not allow customers to enter the bank because they intended to withdraw their money.

Ersatz Tea Party knockoff from the other end of the spectrum. My money is on the heavy involvement of SEIU et al. This seems like a "hey, look over there!" tactic from Democrat-leaning groups who know that people are angry with Democrats over the sucky economy.

It won't matter. The Democrats are going to be slaughtered yet again next November overall, although I wouldn't be surprised to see Obama re-elected.

The protests in Europe, under the justification of poverty lead by the actual crisis, are basically of anarchist inspiration. Occupations always were the main anarchist "weapon" together with circus... basically it's a party, let's dance and bother the bourgeois. Original anarchists were different though, they used bombs and regicides quite often.
People seems to give them too much attention, after few weeks they return to the comfort of their homes. And poor people keeps on being poor but everything is alright, no more "occupations".

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

And yet the protests erupt in Britain and continental Europe as well. In fact, the poverty is some greater in the UK than in the US . I know America has serious problems, otherwise the protests wouldn't have started here in the first place.

The protests are spreading here too, that is true. But as a direct consequence of U.S companies and banks manufacturing the same economic problems in the UK and the EU as well as there.
And its not like we need the U.S to export us protesting. We had protesters just a few week ago turn out in the thousands protesting high tuition fees and lower salaries.

I'm questioning your reasoning that the UK is so much better than the US. You think your country isn't run by the monied class doesn't experience epidemic political corruption? I know mine does. You seem to be unable to acknowledge the corruption happens in yours.

It is a different kind of corruption. In the U.K and Europe its also on a much smaller scale, and illegal.
The U.S practically invented legal bribing on a epic scale, and it seems more accepted culturally there too.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

People seems to give them too much attention

They only got more attention here, the U.S media seem more ignorant to them

Originally posted by fanfaron:

The Democrats are going to be slaughtered yet again next November overall,

I'm not sure why you feel a party that has driven Congressional approval to 13% is going to slaughter the Democrats.

The Occupy Wall Street Movement is just weak excuse of a movement.....like the one I took this morning---a lot of gas, & very little substance!

What an utterly pathetic joke, nothing more than a diversion instigated by operatives within the Obama Administration to take focus off their 'Leaders' multitude of failures & low polling until after the elections-------professionally coordinated by Organized Labor, SEIU, & bankrolled by the deep pockets of the extreme left.

How pathetic is it?

Well, some have said this little camp-out represents the 'Future Leaders of America''.

'Future Leaders of America'!!???!!

How Obscene!

That load should have been collectively shot in the sink!

If this is the future-------Richie, Fonzie, Chachi, Potsie, & Ralph where the bloody hell are ya!?!


This guy puts things in prospective.....






Better yet, this amazing article simply lays it out smack-dab balls-on dead center.


It's definitely worth a read...........

One of the more notable events in the somewhat farcical history of the Occupy Wall Street disturbance is when the group planned a march of about ten blocks from their Zuccotti Park location to police headquarters in lower Manhattan, but got lost along the way. The march quickly fizzled and dissipated, with many participants going their separate ways and a few stalwarts poking their way back through the streets trying to find the park. This slapstick comedy has come to symbolize the group, what it stands for and how well-conceived their plans have been. Further, the group has never actually protested or occupied Wall Street. In an attempt at a movement such as this, one may want to at least insure the actual accomplishment of their namesake.


As the Occupy Wall Street disturbance crudely taps the emotional angst of a younger demographic, it struggles to be recognized as a movement. The protests have been filled with emotional pleas for relief from greed and oppression by a nebulous group referred to as “the system”, “Wall Street”, “banks” and “greedy corporations.” Rarely are individuals or individual instances of corporate misconduct cited in the protests. The OWS outcry against the excesses of greed and injustice does not appear to distinguish between good and bad, it simply aims to demonize symbols of wealth by targeting everyone involved.


Despite the intense media coverage, most Americans still don’t understand the message of the cause. Beyond understanding there also appears to be apathy towards a desire to revolt or to join the OWS cause. OWS has largely been a phenomenon within large urban areas with large student populations, mostly white, middle-class, in late teens or twenties and academics. And while a large number of Americans from all social classes are feeling the bite of tough economic times, the OWS protests do not show any significant indications that they have penetrated the hearts and minds of a statistically meaningful portion of the population.




The blind anger towards the financial markets (and the individual men and women who work in them) as if they were a single, monolithic organism comes across as angst that is raging against rage. This behavior is what gives rise to the “Romper Room Revolution” moniker that has been hung around the neck of this disturbance. Dismissing the individuals who have given their lives to their occupations as bankers and brokers is an American tragedy being perpetuated by “the angry young mob” and fueled by special interest groups, specifically organized labor. When organized labor ranks are taken from the crowd estimates, the average numbers are in the low hundreds…not exactly a movement.



The group is essentially being cast (or casting themselves) as “anger and angst looking for a cause”. Early clashes with police have subsided recently and demonstrations have been relatively without incident. This may be a welcome sign for residents and city officials (as well as protesters), but the ensuing peace is taking its toll on the ranks of the group’s members. Without the controversy of violent opposition by police, the group seems to have lost its drawing power. Misguided stunts such as announcing a major rock group appearance have also compromised the group’s credibility, as well as the influence of organized labor that are being seen as trying to “hijack” the cause.


OWS also has a radical positioning statement that is clearly out of context with their cause. According to the Occupy Wall Street Web site, it draws reference to the Arab Spring for its inspiration. Implying that the hardships faced by American youth or its citizens are even remotely similar to the plight of some Arab Spring countries is simply offensive to human dignity. OWS is fighting for privilege and emotional discharge; the people of Arab Spring Nations are fighting for liberty and life. There is no comparison on any level. The perpetuation of this comparison is an affront to decency. I wonder how many of these self-proclaimed freedom-fighters have ever read Dostoyevsky’s Crime and Punishment. Judging by the lack of moral accountability of the statements made by OWS, the leaderless ghosts who scribed their mission seem to have missed that reading assignment.

The result is a small army of Raskolnikovs running-amok on America’s streets.


Over the weekend, 24 people lost their lives in Egyptian protests. Now is a time of reckoning for the OWS crowd; “are you willing to die or shed blood for your cause?” It may have been an unfortunate and ill-conceived comparison to the Arab Spring, in a moment of self grandeur and self pity that this comparison was drawn. In any case, this group needs to understand that the consequences of “revolution” are often painful and ugly. Throwing words around like “uprising”, “resistance”, and “revolution” may appear to be stylish, but they have profound implications…implications that clearly have not been thought out.


Many of the protesters simply have no understanding of how Wall Street works and no frame of reference to understand what our banking system does for the ordinary individual; they are just too young to have had this type of financial experience. The local bakery, the dry cleaner, the new startup technology company and a myriad of small businesses all rely on the banking system to gain access to capital to start a business. Families just starting out their lives together are still getting mortgages to start their American dreams.


Up to 80% of all small businesses in America fail in the first two years of operation, yet the big bad bankers continue to loan money to this group that makes up the backbone of our economy. Call me crazy, but that just does not sound like greed to me. The Romper Room Revolution is comprised primarily of “twenty something’s” with less than 10 years work experience. Yes, there are older (and younger) partisans but the average is in the early twenties. Many of today’s protesters were either too young to vote in 2010 or simply chose not to vote. Only 20% (1 in 5) of eligible voters aged 18-29 bothered to even vote in 2010. I am struggling to understand how this group is in any way justified to make the claims that they have been excluded. Perhaps they got distracted by their IPhone or video games on election day, I am not sure, but I am sure that 80% were MIA.


These are difficult times, but in the cycle of economics they are not uncommon. Whether we hold our breath and stomp our feet or engage in a constructive solution is an individual choice. During the housing boom of 1995-2006, when nearly 10 million people enjoyed low-cost refinancing to tap their burgeoning home equity, there was no reason for revolution, was there? It was a party, and virtually everyone was invited.

Now that there is a terrible hangover, this group wants to hang the bartender.

OWS is a sham......a mere temper tantrum....& the other 'Occupy' disturbances are no better.

Can't wait for these mindless & pointless lil children to mature. Till then, they should learn how to channel their blind anger more constructively to embody some legitimate purpose & direction.

Maybe they should go back on campus, & take up some Anger Management to enhance their collective Interpersonal Skills.

Then again, maybe just growing up will sort them all out

I do firstly have to say that we all suffer in thiseconomic downturn but the USA I still say is worse than here. We at least have a Welfare State rather than mases of peole having to live on charity handouts at the level across the pnd. Sanguinemoon should take stick of that. What makes the situation with the Wall Street occupations movement more striking is that in a land that has for ever blared about being the greatest country on Earth, full of freedom, rights and all that superficial ballyhoo...isn't. Everything flies in the face of the brained in propaganda. How come in sucha haven of those traditonal values has it come that 1% control the place? The protestors are right in saying there should be financial Barons in the dock and if need be in the damned jail. After all millions are losing their homes, thorwn out of work and penniles but that suer lot get off with just about anything. I am in fact exceedingly glad that America is having is having an "Autumn Spring" like the rest of us here in the normal world. It is high time and at last, at last, it is sinking through that they are led by the noses by the corporates.

It is all very well for Smileyfaze to sneer at the movement as it it was some wee crowd on a corner and use some passing incident as an endorsement of his view. Almost understandable in a way as the media has for the main part tried to ignore the mas protests and have to be dragged to give effective reporting of it. You would think this was the 1950's and the people were being "un-American"? As for some of the police action it is deplorable. I watched an officer in NYC -obviously a ranked individual as he was wearing a white shirt not blue, hammering a truncheon at a person as if he was banging a beam into place on a roof. It was thuggishly brutal. Makes you wonder about that. Protect and serve...eh?

The present establishment and corporate especially the 1% who run the place (and Sanguinemoon and indeed Smileyfaze both don't seem to be too fazed about that one!) have almost destroyed capitalism, misused the genuine belief of the people in their country and shafted them. An Why is it okay to ignore the tiny percentage of controllers?? Anything that re-balances and gives hope is a good thing. Hopefully it will increase and one last thing. The country is not only divided in it's vultures on the Hill but bitterly so as a nation.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

We at least have a Welfare State

So you can spent that money accusing others of doing it....

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Originally posted by rjhowie:

We at least have a Welfare State

So you can spent money accusing others of doing it....

It is impossible for the Government to give anyone anything until it has been taken from someone else.

Socialism

Income Redistribution, or leeching off the life's blood of another's labor.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

It is impossible for the Government to give anyone anything until it has been taken from someone else.

The right wing TP anarchist in opposition to the left wing Occupy anarchists...

In fact the "Government", meaning the State, has several functions, as redistribution of wealth, what you call "take from someone else"... It has others as security, justice or foreign diplomacy just to name a few...
How interesting how right wing in the US can be so anarchist, denying the role of the State. Completely different from European right wing, everything for the State nothing against... the fascist motto.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

It is impossible for the Government to give anyone anything until it has been taken from someone else.

The right wing TP anarchist in opposition to the left wing Occupy anarchists...

In fact the "Government", meaning the State, has several functions, as redistribution of wealth, what you call "take from someone else"... It has others as security, justice or foreign diplomacy just to name a few...
How interesting how right wing in the US can be so anarchist, denying the role of the State. Completely different from European right wing, everything for the State nothing against... the fascist motto.

an·ar·chist /ˈænɚˌkɪst/ noun
plural an·ar·chists
: a person who believes that government and laws are not necessary

I do believe that government & laws are necessary....therefore your pigeon-holing is grossly inaccurate.

I just believe that Government's power to govern is strictly limited by the powers authorized, derived, & enumerated from within the written will of the people---The U.S. Constitution.

You obviously believe in a more liberal version of government...an unlimited government----------------Totalitarianism, where one isn't governed, one is ruled.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

It is the banks who have created much of the present crisis.

1.- What about the failed economic policies of the past 3 Presidential Administrations?
2.-Who forced those millions of people to accept home mortgages that their income couldn't support, who didn't deserve them, & who would have never qualified for loans in a realistic lending system supposedly being watched by Congressional oversight committees?
3.- Who didn't care what the house cost because the Government was willing to subsidize their 0% down mortgage? Now, when those homes suddenly became 'upside-down' -- worth less than the were financed for -- who stepped in to assist these mortgage holders? Where were the lawmakers who authorized these loans, via loose legislation, in the first place?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

When you think of the vast numbers of people having lives ruined whilst Wall Street Barons get away with anything and often with tax-payers money they should damn well spread.

Who forced these people to invest their money in medium to high risk investments?
What does the word risk mean to you? Does it mean --- Jump in fella, there's no sharks, the water ain't deep, & it's just fine?
Who, in light of all the handwriting on the wall, told the people they were supposed to be protecting via regulatory oversight that their investments were safe, & the financial institutions were on sound solid ground?
Then when the shit hit the fan, who turned their backs on the people, & denied ever saying everything was honker-dorey?
The banks?
I think not.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

After all it is those same Barons who run the country and the lot on the Hill are just their lackeys. It is a superficial system to keep the children happy.

And the political & financial system, serving just 59 Million people (as opposed to 300+ million), is any better, or just might it be that they haven't gotten caught at it,,,,,,, yet?
White as the driven snow over there? I think not.
Immune to scandal? I think not.
Your Government on sound financial ground?
Don't bother..............We all know that answer!

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Then congress and the President Bush bailed them out (yes, SF and company, that was Bush) Now there are massive foreclosures, etc. Around here, there's something like 45,000 unsold homes, many of the foreclosed; others not technically foreclosed yet, but people had to walk away from their property (just as my neighbor across the street.)

Your right, the outgoing President, Bush, did just that.................Oh, but who was it that increased the amount of bailouts, & then subsidized the very same people with more lavish stimulus------------stimulus that didn't work to create jobs or bolster the economy?
Irregardless of the facts, & ignoring the previous failure of his administrative policy, who is it that wants billions/trillions more to do exactly the same?
And who all the while is instigating Class Warfare with derisive rhetoric, & by enlisting ignorant mobs to supply his failed administration a smoke screen until Nov. 2012?

George Bush?

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

And who all the while is instigating Class Warfare with derisive rhetoric, & by enlisting ignorant mobs to supply his failed administration a smoke screen until Nov. 2012?

George Bush?

Not GWB. He's been remarkably quiet for for an ex-President. However, the Right has been screaming about class warfare for years and its just not coming around to biting him on the ass.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

I do believe that government & laws are necessary....therefore your pigeon-holing is grossly inaccurate.

Here, I agree with you. Neither the majority of the tp members nor the Occupiers are anarchists. Just because one hits the street in protest doesn't make one an anarchist and for him to say that shows ignorance. Have you noticed that the Occupiers are protests much of the same things as the tp, though. The Occupiers seem to have better memories of a few short years ago, though

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Oh, but who was it that increased the amount of bailouts, & then subsidized the very same people with more lavish stimulus------------stimulus that didn't work to create jobs or bolster the economy?

I know this. For this recession, every known measure for the government to improve the economy has failed, which are to increase government spending, reduce taxes and apply monetary policy. The problem with the bailout of the banks and why people are protesting on Wall Street, as opposed to in front of GM, Chrysler and Ford (yes, Ford did a bailouts is that the banks and Wall street were screwing the people over before the bailouts and afterwards as well.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Where were the lawmakers who authorized these loans, via loose legislation, in the first place?

The lawmakers didn't make make those loans, and the subprime mortgages were actually in violation the Community Reinstatement Act, not the creation of the act. That's contrary to right-wing mythology. Most of the 45,000 vacant homes in the Las Vegas area, in fact, had nothing to do with it and were sound at the time. A little more on this

Now a little more on one of the factors this did cause the meltdown

Synthetic derivatives are created for the casino-like environment on Wall Street, and are generally designed to help third parties, like hedge funds, make bets. Such third parties usually have no involvement at all in the existing loans from which they are structured. The bets being made are not essentially different than betting on a poker game or at a craps table. The primary purpose is to enrich or impoverish parties to the transaction, and the derivatives dealer who creates the opportunity, not to assist mortgage borrowers.

The key to understanding this is to realize that a synthetic derivative is outside the chain of contract. It has no effect upon the existing credit obligation. The original borrower has no obligation at all on the derivative. It is solely a contract between two third parties. The only connection is that bets are being taken for or against the existing loans. Derivatives, in the abstract, are gambling contracts that were immune to state anti-gambling laws by virtue of various acts of Congress, obtained by bankers years ago.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

.....Have you noticed that the Occupiers are protests much of the same things as the tp, though.......

Well, the only damn similarity I see is that they protest, period.....end of similarity!
Short of that, what they are protesting about is an open ended plethora of unknowns depending on who's being asked, & what day it is.

To me they are merely sorry lots of anti-capitalist, anti-American, whining human tragedy's who's sole desire is having something owned by someone else, that they have absolutely no right too, but they somehow firmly believe it's owed to them.

If they want wealth others have worked for they should go about getting it the old fashioned way,,,,they should set out to earn it rather than playing the poor, poor me 'Victim Card'!

Instead of camping out & futilely protesting the Bull of Wall Street, they all should be protesting down in Washington D.C., because the majority of their reported woes can be directly traced to the failed policies of the occupants of1600 Pennsylvania Blvd., & their cohorts in the Capitol Building.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

I do believe that government & laws are necessary....therefore your pigeon-holing is grossly inaccurate.

They also do it. So it seems that my "pigeonholing" is not so inaccurate as that. Anarchists always need governments and laws, the leftists for being fed the rightists for feeling secure.
Any difference between them?
If you want to differentiate yourself I'm afraid that you'll have to show much more than that.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

You obviously believe in a more liberal version of government...an unlimited government----------------Totalitarianism, where one isn't governed, one is ruled.

What a confusion there. Liberal means the opposite, a non intervening. Laissez faire, laissez passer.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

What a confusion there. Liberal means the opposite, a non intervening. Laissez faire, laissez passer.

Sadly my friend, that is not a confusion, not deliberately at least (or is it?). It is how the word "liberal" and "socialism" was twisted out of meaning in America. The extremist right in the U.S, like our friend Smiley above, even use it as insult for people of the center right (laughably called 'Democrats or Liberals' there).
The truth is, there are no Liberals in America. There's only right, central right, and faaaaaaaaar right like Smiley (which we would call Fascists or Iranians here)

Originally posted by Muttsfan:

The truth is, there are no Liberals in America.

That's what remains to be seen. The failure and corruption of both the the GOP and the Democrats might have awoken a sleeping in giant in the form of the American Left.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Bull of Wall Street, they all should be protesting down in Washington D.C., because the majority of their reported woes can be directly traced to the failed policies of the occupants of1600 Pennsylvania Blvd., & their cohorts in the Capitol Building.

See? Told you. There's another point of agreement. 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and the plundering ragamuffins have fail in the policies.

The trouble with the right in America viz. Smileyfaze is that anything outside of their domain is screamed as Socialist and stirring up a rampant over patriotism that yells you are a traitor. Small wonder the place is so polarised and deeply divided. The wealthy and cumfy off show scant regard for the poor and many of the millions (note, millions) of new poor used to be middle class, managerial et al and worked and supported their country. Now they are written off it seems by Republicans. TP people etc.How this equates with the tub thumping of the right is beyond comprehension in the real world outside. If people outside the cumfy zone of Smileyfaze and Co are pigeon-holed like this the divisions will only get deeper. It is the cumfy who are so outspoken about being loayal and flag waving then put a donation to a charity box or soup kitchen as a conscience solve.

I have stil to find Smileyfaze explaining how a country so strong on values, democracy, reasonable capitalism has seen the control diminish and diminish over the decades to that 1% Howdo principles justify or explain that one away. Instead it is ignored. Once more I will ask for an explanation and say yet again. If ever a decent people were conned, robbed and badly done too it is Americans. The financial Barons are immune whilst those millions join the queues for shelters and food kitchens. Damnable.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Bull of Wall Street, they all should be protesting down in Washington D.C., because the majority of their reported woes can be directly traced to the failed policies of the occupants of1600 Pennsylvania Blvd., & their cohorts in the Capitol Building.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

See? Told you. There's another point of agreement. 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and the plundering ragamuffins have fail in the policies.

Now all you got to do is give them a coherent message & have George Soros buy 'em all a GPS, then teach them how to lock it in to DC, where it matters...it ain't Wall Street it's DC.

P.S. If they don't want to use a GPS because it's a tool maintained by the Imperialistic Armed Forces of the Capitalistic States of America, then hand them a freekin' (recycled) paper map. Don't want to traumatize the mindless lil puppies now do we.

EDIT: Geez, I almost forgot...we don't want 'em gettin' lost now do we....so make sure you place a big red X marking where you want them to go.

Use RED ONLY....you know they all have a affinity fer red!

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Now all you got to do is give them a coherent message & have George Soros buy 'em all a GPS

With your irrational fear and hatred of George Soros, you're in good company Smiley.
Every communists, and socialist in Europe hate him profoundly too. The USSR back in the day even contemplated assassinating him many times.

Originally posted by Muttsfan:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Now all you got to do is give them a coherent message & have George Soros buy 'em all a GPS

Originally posted by Muttsfan:

With your irrational fear and hatred of George Soros........

Yeah....."ignore that man behind the curtain" sounds familiar & seems fitting here..

Gotta say, the pic that Sang posted was very interesting.

In that pic, every state in the South has participated with the exceptions of Mississippi, Arkansas and South Carolina.

I've not been keeping up with this movement, but I gotta say, geez, not since bussing and integration has the South been this active about something.

Interesting. Will be keeping up with this movement.

Anyone want to make a bet that eventually the TP and the OWS movements meet up and have a battle royale?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

The trouble with the right in America viz. Smileyfaze is that anything outside of their domain is screamed as Socialist and stirring up a rampant over patriotism that yells you are a traitor. Small wonder the place is so polarised and deeply divided. The wealthy and cumfy off show scant regard for the poor and many of the millions (note, millions) of new poor used to be middle class, managerial et al and worked and supported their country. Now they are written off it seems by Republicans. TP people etc.How this equates with the tub thumping of the right is beyond comprehension in the real world outside. If people outside the cumfy zone of Smileyfaze and Co are pigeon-holed like this the divisions will only get deeper. It is the cumfy who are so outspoken about being loayal and flag waving then put a donation to a charity box or soup kitchen as a conscience solve.

I have stil to find Smileyfaze explaining how a country so strong on values, democracy, reasonable capitalism has seen the control diminish and diminish over the decades to that 1% Howdo principles justify or explain that one away. Instead it is ignored. Once more I will ask for an explanation and say yet again. If ever a decent people were conned, robbed and badly done too it is Americans. The financial Barons are immune whilst those millions join the queues for shelters and food kitchens. Damnable.

Sorry you, & the rest of the 'real world' feel that way RJ....I've yet to hear mainstream Americans express your same opinions outside of damning the occupants of DC.

Maybe when more of your ilk move here it'll happen. Ya think?

See, it seems Americans know what's important to Americans more-so than ya'll.

We don't need or want the 'real world' to Nanny us, but thank you very much for your concern though. And if it makes ya'll feel better, you can continue to impress yerselves.

Keep on keepin' on

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Use RED ONLY....you know they all have a affinity fer red!

Too true, Americans seem to have a weird affinity for Red.
Red Blood, Red Apples, Red Skins, Red Scare, Red Slippers, Red States, Red Republicans....

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Yeah....."ignore that man behind the curtain" sounds familiar & seems fitting here..

Sadly Frank Morgan has been dead a long time my dear Smiley. But you may be right, we should keep him alive in our hearts! That way he will never be truly gone!

Anarchy in America?


Seems well organized and democratic to me.

But you've got to admit, mum, the gist of the thread and the "movement" is captured succinctly…

[edit] Incremental fixing?

Maybe it is unfortunate Smileyfaze if we i the world see it as that but we are perhaps standing more distant to be able to see widely. You failed to answer my points entirely about the percentage the situation the control by media, corporates and politicain big bucks organisations. Your country is very, very, deeply divide3d and instead of answering me we tend to get into the Tea Party v Occupy Wall Street contests instead. I do wish you would try and at least make an effort as I reckon my points have some validity and they need to be faced and properly answered. That way I will feel more inclined to give you some credence rather than you falling back on steryotyping your opposition.

Yet again I ask. The 1% which it has declined to steadily and continually over the years -the million a year losing homes - the growth of shelters for middle-class homeless - wonky dealing by morgage brokers/banks -greed of the corporate and getting tax money to feed it onwards. The vast majority of these folk were not parasites but hard working, loyal Americans who were brought up to love their country and it's system (even it is warped in favour of the rich). So some indepth answers...please...at last?

Originally posted by Paul Krugman:

Some readers have been asking me to go make a speech at one of the OWS demonstrations. If you think about it, however, you’ll see why I can’t.

I’ve been granted the enormous privilege of expounding my own views twice a week in the world’s greatest newspaper. I try to make the best use of that privilege, doing all I can to get the truth across and also advocating for what I believe to be the right policies. There are, however, some restrictions that come with the privilege; one of them is not crossing the line between advocate and activist. And there are good reasons for drawing that line.

Just in case you were wondering.
(source)

What would St. Joan say, Paul?

They're called Krugman's Army… And he's legitimately proud!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Yet again I ask. The 1% which it has declined to steadily and continually over the years -the million a year losing homes - the growth of shelters for middle-class homeless - wonky dealing by morgage brokers/banks -greed of the corporate and getting tax money to feed it onwards. The vast majority of these folk were not parasites but hard working, loyal Americans who were brought up to love their country and it's system (even it is warped in favour of the rich). So some indepth answers...please...at last?

113,000,000 +/- Households in the USA as of 2009. Taking your number of foreclosures/abandonments per year of 1,000,000 +/- would mean that the rate of foreclosure/abandonment is somewhere around 4/5ths of 1%.

Yes, a million is way too many, but if you consider that probably more than 15-20+ million new homeowners got high risk (due to high debt to income ratios) sub prime 0% down mortgages over the 13 year period starting around 1995 to 2008-------mortgages that they traditionally wouldn't have qualified for, but the Government asked/insisted/legislated that the banks to make--------I'm thinking due to the rate of home value devaluation over the last 4-6 years it could possibly be greater than you think. I'd be surprised if it weren't.

If the banking rules used in the 60's, 70's & 80's were allowed to continue by the Government, most of those people you speak of would have never realized home ownership at all.....Most banks required between 20%-30% down on a 25/30 year fixed rate mortgage ( the traditional US type of mortgage, as opposed to flexible rate types, which were minimal at best) & a prospective homeowners debt to income ratio had to be stellar. The Clinton Administration wanted everyone to own a home regardless of their credit rating & income level, so those rules were relaxed greatly by the Government in the Clinton years, & allowed to continued the same through the Bush years, ergo today's banking crisis. Who in Government really knew (I'm sure there must have been quite a few) what would eventually happen, & when did they know it?

Now, if I were a low income earner, waist deep in debt, & I was told that the Government would subsidize a loan for me holding a 0% down payment, I'd be a dope not to strongly consider taking advantage of that to get into my own house.

So you can't blame them------would you? Not I. But some should have known it wouldn't last, but they ignored the writing on the wall anyway.........can't hold it against them really---------everyone was doing it.

The banks didn't actually hold most of the paper (the mortgage) either. They sold most of these high-risk sub-prime mortgages, after a period of time, to Fannie Mae, & Freddie Mac (Agencies of the US Government), so the Government was really the majority loan holder & prime culprits here regarding court actions. The banks merely serviced most of these loans (collections, book-keeping, etc..) for the two Government Agency's.

Can you see where I'm coming from here.

The banks aren't clean by a long shot, but the Federal Government mucked up the lending system big time, & the banks saw creative ways to make a fortune too, so they went gladly along with the new Gov't. rules (0% down, risky debt to income ratios, etc...).

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

----mortgages that they traditionally wouldn't have qualified for, but the Government asked/insisted/legislated that the banks to make-

That's another right-wing misconception.

First, only a small portion of subprime mortgage originations are related to the CRA. Second, CRA- related loans appear to perform comparably to other types of subprime loans. Taken together… we believe that the available evidence runs counter to the contention that the CRA contributed in any substantive way to the current mortgage crisis,” he said in a speech today in Washington.

...

Fed economists found that about 60% of higher-priced loan originations — the technical definition of subrpime — went to middle- or higher-income borrowers or neighborhoods who aren’t targeted by CRA.

In other words, people that probably would have been able to get a loan in the first place.

Now the CRA didn't quite work as intended:

The “striking result,” Kroszner said: “Only 6% of all the higher-priced loans were extended by CRA-covered lenders to lower-income borrowers or neighborhoods in their CRA assessment areas, the local geographies that are the primary focus for CRA evaluation purposes.”

Those are the ones that wouldn't have been able to a get a loan, not because of individual factors with the borrower, but simply because of the neighborhood they were trying to purchase a home in.

“This result undermines the assertion by critics of the potential for a substantial role for the CRA in the subprime crisis. In other words, the very small share of all higher-priced loan originations that can reasonably be attributed to the CRA makes it hard to imagine how this law could have contributed in any meaningful way to the current subprime crisis.”

In the end, the sub-prime loans were product of the banks, as much as the tea party members want to absolve the banks of their enormous role in wrecking the economy.

They just did a comprehensive poll. Apparently, this populist progressive movement seems to be quote more popular with th American public than the Koch bought and paid for T Party.

Americans favor Occupy Wall Street far more than Tea Party: Despite nonstop GOP and conservative disparagement of the Wall Street protests, the most detailed polling yet on Occupy Wall Street suggests that the public holds a broadly favorable view of the movement — and, crucially, the positions it holds.

Time released a new poll this morning finding that 54 percent view the Wall Street protests favorably, versus only 23 percent who think the opposite. Interestingly, only 23 percent say they don’t have an opinion, suggesting the protests have succeeded in punching through to the mainstream. Also: The most populist positions espoused by Occupy Wall Street — that the gap between rich and poor has grown too large; that taxes should be raised on the rich; that execs responsible for the meltdown should be prosecuted — all have strong support.

Meanwhile, the poll found that only 27 percent have a favorable view of the Tea Party. My handy Plum Line calculator tells me that this amounts to half the number of those who view Occupy Wall Street favorably.

http://swampland.time.com/full-results-of-oct-9-10-2011-time-poll/

Forbes has a somewhat balanced article on the movement that has a photo the SF might enjoy.

Likewise, I’ve pointed out that the real problem isn’t government and it isn’t corporations, it’s the nexus of the two – cronyism – that has led to the very real economic problems we’re facing.

.....

As I’ve mentioned before, most of these protesters don’t want to upend the US economy and replace it with some sort of socialist dystopia – they just want an economy that actually creates jobs, value, and a decent work place for the rest of America that isn’t living large despite its bad risks and too-big-to-fail failures.

That's pretty much common sense,though, isn't it? No, Herman Cain, the protesters don't want to steal your Cadillac and no, Glenn Beck,they don't want to kill you . So you guys can tone down your rhetoric that makes you look out of touch (Herman Cain) or completely crazy (Glenn Beck. OK, in his case the nice young men in clean white coats should be taking him to the doctor for his diagnosis any day now...)

Oh, here's the photo:

Go ahead and laugh, SF and get it out of your system. There ya go. Once again, however, it's not about products and services that actually create value and jobs. Conservatives like to say " lol...that protester has an iPhone." Yes, maybe he or she does, so the hell what? It wasn't Apple that brought down the economy. It was Goldman Sachs, AIG, Chase, Bank of America, etc that did with their greed and corruption and bogus financial products such as derivatives *

* The article and the video might help explain things 1) "There was an awful lot of, 'Trust us. Leave it alone. We can do it better than government,' without any realistic understanding of the dangers involved," says Harvey Goldschmid, a Columbia University law professor and a former commissioner and general counsel of the Securities and Exchange Commission.........."That was the wildest and silliest period in many ways. Now, again, that's with hindsight because the argument at the time was these are grownups. They're institutions with a great deal of money. Government will only get in the way. See, TP, government taking itself out of the equation was the problem. To prevent this we needed more government, not less.

2)It also produced a huge transfer of private wealth to Wall Street traders and investment bankers, who collected billions of dollars in bonuses.

What's that called SF. You know, redistribution of wealth...

3)"The credit default swaps was the key of what went wrong and what's created these enormous losses," Goldschmid says. It wasn't the Community Reinvestment Act, SF.

4)"We need the most dramatic rethinking of the regulatory scheme for financial markets since the New Deal. If anything has demonstrated that imperative, it's the economy right now and the tragic circumstances we're in," Goldschmid says.

Originally posted by BernG:

They just did a comprehensive poll. Apparently, this populist progressive movement seems to be quote more popular with th American public than the Koch bought and paid for T Party.

Yup 54% favorable total. I noticed this one as well : (the caps are from the article)

Q12. DO YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH THAT POSITION?

A. WALL STREET AND ITS LOBBYISTS HAVE TOO MUCH INFLUENCE IN WASHINGTON

BASE: FAMILIAR WITH PROTESTS (787)

AGREE 86%

DISAGREE 11%

NO ANSWER/DON’T KNOW 4%



Read more: http://swampland.time.com/full-results-of-oct-9-10-2011-time-poll/#ixzz1agYOqS7D

That's the biggest issue of the protests, meaning the protests have a lot of room to grow in favorable ratings.

Hrmmm...most of the answers foreshadow GOP defeat in 2012. Unless this corruption can be rooted out, the banks regulated, etc I'm not convinced just yet that it will make that much difference, though. Go Green?

Some further advancement by Smileyfaze there but what of the share of the economic power that used to be in double figures once then steadily declined to that stark 1%. It kind of shows the way the coporate bankers have been going for far too long and Americans lulled into some form of general tolerance by using their natural love of country to try and circumvent the increased power of the wealthy and untouchables.

Today protests will happen at 950 cities over 80 countries. This is big, if it keeps on growing we are going to see something very different from usual.
There will be different nuances at each country but joining people that usually would never stand together is certainly a very powerful force.

Originally posted by xyzoneon:

Oh, and the media hardly covers the protests themselves, much less this so there's only youtube.

Don't you just hate it when poor people whine?

The police are our friends.

Right to Peaceful Assembly:
The First Amendment upholds the right to peaceful assembly, which should not be denied except in situations of national security or public safety. The right to violent assembly is not upheld.

The Reality:
If the "Occupy" united demands are not met, basically peaceful protests today will take a turn---it has been promised. Mayhem, violence, destruction, & total anarchy are promised if the World Governments, Banks, & all other Financial Institutions don't divest themselves of all the moneys stolen from the masses---the 99%, & further mass protest, havoc, & riots are planned unless all working class debt isn't forgiven, & moves toward worker equality isn't accelerated.

The fissures are widening quickly, the pillars are beginning to weaken so the power elite try to hide it, pretend it is not there – but it is and it is growing; and soon, they will not be able to escape it. Listen now to the non-violent protests across the country. Do not ignore us. Do not deny reality when Americans know better. Failure to listen now and respond will result in more aggressive demonstrations, perhaps violent riots, which will be counterproductive and much more costly to the nation and the lifestyles of the elites. But, they are inevitable if the elites to not radically change their behavior in response to an aroused citizenry.

This is their message to the civilized world:







Menacing threats?

Nahhh.......Just flower children in totally peaceful, cumbayah, & nonviolent protest courtesy of Code Pink, ADBUSTERS, The SEIU, The Tides Foundation, & other like minded organizations all coming together to ensure a successful Marxist Global Revolution.

They will say, The end justifies the means.......we shall see.

Maybe the Brits were a wee too civil & slow in protecting the rights & property of their general public, but if push comes to shove in the USA, & things get a bit too nasty, it will be a tad different here in the Home of the Brave.....The People's Militias are armed & ready to protect Our Nation from external or internal threats if necessary. Militias do not need a permission slip from a Commander in Chief to serve our communities..........You watch & see............Know one thing for sure......we are.

Nobody even begins to believe those media scare tactics, SF.

Anyway, if there's any doubt, check out he do and don't brochure for the Vegas protests.

Let's see....do follow instructions given by Metro PD

Don't sit with 20 feet of a casino entry. (In other words, respect private property )
Don't respond with physical action to anyone. (Don't get into a fight, even if you didn't start it.)

Littering is not permitted.

Yeah, sounds like a violent Marxist uprising, huh

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

The People's Militias are armed & ready to protect Our Nation from external or internal threats if necessary. Militias do not need a permission slip from a Commander in Chief to serve our communities..........You watch & see............Know one thing for sure......we are.

See, this is the telling bit. We're telling people to not litter, whereas you're threatening with militia accountable to no one.Think about it.

Originally posted by BernG:

Apparently, this populist progressive movement seems to be quote more popular with th American public than the Koch bought and paid for T Party.

Could be. We'll see next November. And if the Koches bought and paid for the TP, you'd have to say that SEIU and Andy Stern bought and paid for OWS.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

See, this is the telling bit. We're telling people to not litter, whereas you're threatening with militia accountable to no one.Think about it.

The Tea Party didn't litter, and as I recall there weren't any arrests. But yet you and others portrayed them as some violent, angry mob.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

That's the biggest issue of the protests, meaning the protests have a lot of room to grow in favorable ratings.

Hrmmm...most of the answers foreshadow GOP defeat in 2012. Unless this corruption can be rooted out, the banks regulated, etc I'm not convinced just yet that it will make that much difference, though. Go Green?

Hmmmm...but then there's this.

The vast majority of Americans have heard of the Occupy Wall Street protests, but less than half have a favorable view about the demonstrations, a new poll shows.

A sky-high 82 percent of those surveyed have heard of the rallies and demonstrations against corporatism and big banks, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll. By comparison, only 54 percent of Americans could name at least one Republican presidential candidate unprompted, according to a Pew Research study from last week.

Only 38 percent of respondents to the Reuters/Ipsos poll said they felt favorably toward the movement, less than half the number of those who have heard about it.

On the other hand, 24 percent had unfavorable views of the protests, and a large number — 35 percent — were undecided as to what they thought about the demonstrations.

Now how much of favorable/unfavorable ratings have to do with how "mainstream" the protestors' views are in the TP compared to OWS, and how much is attributable to relative media coverage?

Sorry, but the Democrats are still going to get slaughtered next year.

(edit)
Heh.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

The Tea Party didn't litter, and as I recall there weren't any arrests. But yet you and others portrayed them as some violent, angry mob.

I didn't say they did. I was just pointing out the irony of us being so peaceful and SF's implied threats of violence from militia (some would say terrorist groups)

Those arrests were police brutality and harassment. It turned out those 700 protesters weren't doing anything wrong. Let's say there's a dictatorship, choose your type for now. People hit the streets in protest and thousands get arrested. Who was doing wrong, the arrestees or the arresters? The definition of fascist dictatorship, given to us by Mussolini himself, is a collusion of state and corporate power. By that definition, America is very close to that. Anyway, don't you find it funny that James O'Keefe (of the bogus Acorn and Planned Parenthood videos infamy) tried to instigate the Occupiers to break the law by breaking the law the law himself, and failed utterly as the real Occupiers wondered what that idiot who was breaking things was doing. He did this possibly in violation of his own probation ....

Originally posted by fanfaron:

On the other hand, 24 percent had unfavorable views of the protests, and a large number

Only 24% unfavorable. Thanks for confirming that the Occupy movement is doing much better in that zombie of a movement that calls itself the tea party. I always you guys would come around

This should warm your heart even further

In the protest movement popularity contest, Occupy Wall Street is whupping the Tea Party.

The demonstrations against big banks has a 54% favorability rating compared to the conservative group's 27%, according to a new Time magazine poll.

A sizable number - 23% - said they didn't know enough about the Wall St. protesters to make a decision.

In contrast, 23% said they had a negative opinion of Occupy Wall Street compared to 65% who said the Tea Party's influence has been negative or negligible.

[/url]

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Now how much of favorable/unfavorable ratings have to do with how "mainstream" the protestors' views are in the TP compared to OWS, and how much is attributable to relative media coverage?

Well, until a few days ago, there had been a virtual media blackout in the US of favorable mainstream media coverage so those numbers are not bad at all. The tea party on the other hand, gets given more than due legitimacy from the mainstream media, even to the extent of CNN co-hosting GOP debates with the Tea Party Express and giving that later control of the questions to the candidates. Now if you look at the last line of the article I posted, the tp guy even confirms this:

Tea Partiers are "not lawbreakers, they don't hate the police, they don't even litter. A quick glance at the TV reveals the sharp contrast posed by the Wall St. occupiers," the group said in a statement.

See, the tp even confirms that the mainstream media has been giving the Occupy movement negative coverage. I give it to them that the tp'ers aren't lawbreakers by and large, just corporate shills.

But it isn't even about those numbers. It's about people's frustration with the massive bailouts and the massive Washington corruption. To put it simply as possible, this is the year people around the world are sick of the shit.

I couldn't follow your last link, as Twitter is at over capacity at this time. I wonder why...

Oh my, the whole world is lighting up in protest today. London, Rome, Zurich, smallish and seemingly unexpected cities such as Columbia, SC, Frankfurt, Sarajevo, Stockholm, etc Can you feel something in the air, yet , because I sure the hell can?

There are big problems in Rome:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/c0f54f7c-f735-11e0-9941-00144feab49a.html#axzz1auRzMB4r

Witnesses said hooded militants infiltrated what had been a peaceful demonstration.
The violence started when a group of about 30 or 40 men torched SUVs along the route of the march, smashed the windows of a branch of Cassa di Ripsarmio di Rimini bank, attacked a supermarket and torched Italian and European Union flags flying outside a hotel.
The rioters appeared to belong to a violent movement called the black bloc – fringe groups of far-left and anarchists militants – who caused mayhem in central Rome last December when they infiltrated a peaceful protest by students against government cuts in education.

The article goes on to say that the militants had caused mayhem in central Rome last December. I denounce the violence, but point out this is not the work of the Occupiers and those causing the violence need to prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Professional out-of-town agitators most probably, the same cowards that seem to attend all the World Wide summits (G20 & the like).

Most don't want their identity known, so they try to hide their identity.

Those that run protests who either directly or indirectly sanction the wearing of masks, hoods, & any other garb used to disguise one's identity must be held responsible for infiltrations of these agitators. If you intend on protesting peacefully, there is no need whatsoever to hide your identity.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

...I was just pointing out the irony of us being so peaceful and SF's implied threats of violence from militia (some would say terrorist groups)

I was not threatening violence, I was just stating that if the violence comes, & it seemingly will, & the violence gets to such a level that the lives & property of the general public are surely at severe risk from such violence, that the militias are prepared to intervene if needed. That's not a threat, it's a promise of support for those that can't protect themselves in their deepest time of need---just the same as if a foreign power landed on the shores of Long Island, or Daytona Beach.

Quit being so dramatic, & stop playing the poor me, poor us, Victim Card.

In your, the 'Occupy' kind of unorganized, wide open, no boundaries, anything goes protesting, the threat of violence is attracted like flies to stink regardless if the overwhelming majority of the protesting is nonviolent at it's start.

It's like a box of fleas, once opened & they all escape, it's impossible to get them all back in.

The only victims here are the innocent general public, not the participants.

Reading this thread, I have to say that I would fear Smileyfaze and his militia buddies far more than I would fear the Occupiers. Some of these militia types have shown themselves far more apt to strip us of our freedoms than almost any protester would do.

Smiley, I have to say it. By your own words you show your true self-- and frankly, it's a bit frightening. It's also enlightening in its own way too, by showing this we see what we're really up against and from whom it's most likely to come.

I was there at the manifestations.
Not at the sofa as the rightist and the leftist Americans D&D fellow posters.
Rightists?
Leftists?

It should also be noted that the real Occupiers tried to stop the black bloc anarchists

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/riot-police-fire-tear-gas-protesters-rome-14743959

"People of Europe: Rise Up!" read one banner in Rome. Some activists turned against the violent group, trying to stop them and shouting "Enough!" and "Shame!"

Rome Mayor Gianni Alemanno blamed the violence on "a few thousand thugs from all over Italy, and possibly from all over Europe, who infiltrated the demonstration."

Even the mayor knows those were thugs from all over.

Nevertheless, thousands of protests continue peacefully.

As far as protesting mask free,



These guys are protesting peacefully with their placecards. So do you make the distinction between them and dis-organization such as the black bloc rioters. A rule saying that you can't join in if you're wearing mask doesn't seem like it would really work.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Not at the sofa as the rightist and the leftist Americans D&D fellow posters.

Oh, we don't start here for another hour and half It takes maybe 30-45 minutes to go downtown (probably closer to 45, since it's the weekend there's tourist traffic) Go for you though. At least you went to see what it was all about

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Some of these militia types have shown themselves far more apt to strip us of our freedoms than almost any protester would do.

Indeed. Timothy McVey anyone? Another incident like that in a post 9-11 world and we'll find ourselves living under marshal law.

Ahh there were the gay defenders...thanks to them protests don't get no dimension...

What? Who's gay?

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Oh, we don't start here for another hour and half It takes maybe 30-45 minutes to go downtown

Are you mentally retarded? Or do you think that people all over the world accepts to live the way you accept to live?
Downtown is under my window, proletarian suburban.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

It should also be noted that the real Occupiers tried to stop the black bloc anarchists

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/riot-police-fire-tear-gas-protesters-rome-14743959

"People of Europe: Rise Up!" read one banner in Rome. Some activists turned against the violent group, trying to stop them and shouting "Enough!" and "Shame!"

EEwwwww....those harsh words must scare the bejesis outa those naughty bad guys!

Sorry to say, but violence only respects one universal language, & that's violence.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Rome Mayor Gianni Alemanno blamed the violence on "a few thousand thugs from all over Italy, and possibly from all over Europe, who infiltrated the demonstration."

Even the mayor knows those were thugs from all over.

Nevertheless, thousands of protests continue peacefully.

So, if I get this right, as long as most of the protest is peaceful, a certain amount of violence is generally acceptable?

How much violence....a tiny bit, a fair amount, just not to much?

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

As far as protesting mask free,



These guys are protesting peacefully with their placecards. So do you make the distinction between them and dis-organization such as the black bloc rioters. A rule saying that you can't join in if you're wearing mask doesn't seem like it would really work.

In other protests around the world, haven't you ever observed that the greater majority of the trouble makers roam masked, their identities hidden?!?

Seriously, of course you must have!

Allowing your 'brothers & sisters' to protest masked allows the seemingly unwanted infiltrators & agitators to roam at will within your peaceful ranks, hiding until the opportunity arises to strike, then returning when the deed is done.

In the heat of turmoil, if the cops chase bad guys in masks, how do you think they are going to discriminate the good guys from the bad guys when the bad guys return to your peaceful ranks ?!?

Wearing a mask can be dangerous & detrimental to your health in that case. Ya think?

Then who's fault would it be if the innocent are clubbed?

Yours of course! You must take full & total responsibility for the innocent being injured this way.

If you were seriously willing to condemn & denounce violence on a realistic level you would most firmly insist---NO MASKS!

Your numbers might dwindle a tad, but at least it would be a sign of good intentions.

Actually, it would work if you had the balls & the muscle to enforce it, after all they represent you--sanctioned or not.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Reading this thread, I have to say that I would fear Smileyfaze and his militia buddies far more than I would fear the Occupiers. Some of these militia types have shown themselves far more apt to strip us of our freedoms than almost any protester would do.

Smiley, I have to say it. By your own words you show your true self-- and frankly, it's a bit frightening. It's also enlightening in its own way too, by showing this we see what we're really up against and from whom it's most likely to come.

Seriously, you might read, but can you comprehend? Read the post directly above yours one more time....very slowly & out loud to yourself.

I would expect police to go in where there is vicious violence but in some of the cases I was rather shocked at the way police did things. One was into the crowd with fists flying others batting people with their sticks like killing wild animals. Is that needed when there is no violence? City police over there seem a bit too up for some action?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I would expect police to go in where there is vicious violence but in some of the cases I was rather shocked at the way police did things. One was into the crowd with fists flying others batting people with their sticks like killing wild animals. Is that needed when there is no violence? City police over there seem a bit too up for some action?

True, but one has to wonder what provocations might have fed the shark feeding frenzy.

We only see the end results---one side of the issue.

Did someone call the black officers the N word? (reported)
Were they continually spat upon? (reported)
Were there other items being thrown a them? (reported)
Did they continually go up to them nose to nose, hurling insult upon insult? (reported)

Remember were talkin' about American cops here, not some placid, tulip sniffing Brit & Euro girlie-men.

Our cops aren't so placid, & aren't expected to be.

A word to the wise. Here if you are ordered to back off once...then twice, don't expect to be warned a third time.

It's simple....Just shut yer pie holes, listen to the directives, & back-off when ordered-----or be willing to pay the price.

The choice is yours.

Again, we only see the end results---one side of the issue.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Reading this thread, I have to say that I would fear Smileyfaze and his militia buddies far more than I would fear the Occupiers. Some of these militia types have shown themselves far more apt to strip us of our freedoms than almost any protester would do.

Smiley, I have to say it. By your own words you show your true self-- and frankly, it's a bit frightening. It's also enlightening in its own way too, by showing this we see what we're really up against and from whom it's most likely to come.

Seriously, you might read, but can you comprehend? Read the post directly above yours one more time....very slowly & out loud to yourself.

It might surprise, you, but I read and comprehend. Not just now, but history as well. The various un-official militias don't come off looking so good in the recent history. Some might be OK, but some are unabashed survival nuts with way more armament than is needed by the average citizen. Seems most of these guys are actively hoping something happens so they'll have reason to use all that hardware. Some of your stuff has been looking dangerously close to the edge. You might want to ease off that trigger-finger just a hair.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Some of your stuff has been looking dangerously close to the edge. You might want to ease off that trigger-finger just a hair.

You obviously didn't read what I wrote, so rather than link ya to it again, I will Copy & paste it here for you....& if you don't understand some of the big words, just ask---I'll ease ya through it!

I was not threatening violence, I was just stating that if the violence comes, & it seemingly will, & the violence gets to such a level that the lives & property of the general public are surely at severe risk from such violence, that the militias are prepared to intervene if needed. That's not a threat, it's a promise of support for those that can't protect themselves in their deepest time of need---just the same as if a foreign power landed on the shores of Long Island, or Daytona Beach. .......The only victims here are the innocent general public, not the participants.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Then who's fault would it be if the innocent are clubbed?

The people club the innocent, of course. You just don't go clubbing people that happen to be wearing a mask. I mean seriously, guy. Maybe you trail them and watch them, but peace officers are not to go off beating citizens. What the hell kind of country do you want to live in where cops can do that? Imagine you're at a tea party rally and somebody dons an Uncle Sam mask or whatever, and the police proceed to club him. mjmsprt40 was right. You're true character is right here on display, but I add that your lack of thinking things out is also on display.

By your lack of reasoning, this tea party protester should have been clubbed by the police:



By the way, in the original post, you were threatening violence . You coming in with your block bloc is no better than black blocs of the left.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

By your lack of reasoning, this tea party protester should have been clubbed by the police

A totally ignorant, & inane assumption made by an obviously oxygen starved mind, one teetering on developmentally challenged!

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

You just don't go clubbing people that happen to be wearing a mask. I mean seriously, guy.

I never once said they should be clubbed because they are wearing a mask, not at all...I was saying that if the masked trouble makers say just overturned a car & set it afire, & as they were fleeing back to safety into the peacefully protesting crowd the cops were on their tail in hot pursuit.

Once in their supposed safe haven (among the many others masked identically or similar), the cops catch up & a donnybrook breaks out as they are being taken into custody.

Because of their disguise being the same or similar to the troublemakers, innocent protestors may mistakenly get busted up by cops mistaking them for the actual troublemakers. Wrong place, wrong time.

If they weren't masked, they probably wouldn't have gotten whacked, but because they were they were indistinguishable from the masked troublemakers.

That was my point---plain & simple, but obviously not simple enough for you.

Oh, and no I don't mind at all if the cops bustin' up the troublemakers a bit, which has never happened once at a Tea Party rally/protest, because those types would never be allowed to blend in with our crowd. We aren't that stupid, & the cops don't have trouble with our methods of protesting---why because they are are mostly orderly, expansive yes, but orderly.

We can get loud & boisterous, but we are never violent, & always heed the authorities. Respect begets respect.

Hell, some of the more 'militant' ATPM supporters would probably take it further than the cops would if they got their hands on 'em!

Some of us ain't afraid of a little knuckle dustin'!

Them assholes would be beggin' the cops to come & protect 'em!!!

Grown, mature, men & women never legitimately need to hide their identities with masks during a nonviolent or peaceful protest, especially if their organizers have paid masked professional agitators to join their ranks, & then look for & start trouble....a typical SEIU, Move on, & Code Pink activity.

Save mask wearing for little children having a childish Halloween trick-or-treat, or some gay pride parade where they might not want the football club knowing that their gate swung both ways or that they smoked blunt Tiparillos.

All of these emails asking me whats up with this mask?

Do they even know what it signifies? .... Who it is?

Is this the 'OCCUPY' savior & hero???

I hope this clears it up, at least a little.

Anyone have anything else to add why the Left --- especially the Occupy Wherever Mob --- choose Guy Fawkes as their champion?


...........................................

I cannot for the life of me figure out how Guy Fawkes became a symbol of revolution. I see all these anarchist types wandering around with their V masks, and I wonder if they even know who Guy Fawkes really is? It baffles me why a reactionary like Fawkes has been so heartily adopted by the American left. Why did the main character of V for Vendetta wear a V mask rather than a Che mask, or a Lenin mask, or even an Abbie Hoffman mask? Why Guy Fawkes, for the love of heaven?

The Gun Powder Plot was not, in any reasonable sense of the word, revolutionary. It was counter revolutionary in the strictest interpretation. The English Reformation was a social revolution that freed Britain from Papal tyranny. Under Queen Elizabeth I, the old Norman aristocracy lost their influence in favor of the new merchant class. Guy Fawkes himself was the son of an upwardly mobile middle class Protestant family. His father was a minor official in the Church of England, and his mother was the daughter of a dry goods merchant. Fawkes’s conversion to Catholicism may have stemmed from teen rebellion.

Guy Fawkes and his fellow Gunpowder Plotters wanted to destroy the new Church of England and return England to Papal control. How can this possibly be seen as revolutionary? Despite popular belief, Guy Fawkes was not the ringleader. That dubious honor went to a hereditary Catholic by the name of Robert Catesby. The Gunpowder Plot could have been thought up by Sir Edmund Blackadder. The conspirators rented a house next to the Winchester Complex, planning to mine beneath the House of Lords, pack it with gunpowder and blow it up during Parliament’s opening session. That way they could get King James, most of his court and family, and all the influential Protestant nobles. The opening of Parliament was delayed three times on account of the Black Plague, yet the tunnel was still not completed. So they rented the cellar beneath the House of Lords and stocked that with gunpowder instead.

If Robert Catesby was Blackadder, then Guy Fawkes was Baldric. Even though Fawkes knew that the plot had been revealed by a Catholic nobleman who was appalled at the plot, he tried to go through with it anyway. The guards were looking for him. They caught him in the cellar with 32 kegs of gunpowder and with fuses and matches in his pocket. He still tried to lie his way out of it. He was taken to the Tower of London and tortured while his buddies epically failed at getting away.

That was the historic Guy Fawkes. He was not the great defender of freedom as portrayed in V for Vendetta. He was an expendable flunky in a hare-brained plot to stop the wheels of progress and to return England to the “good old days” of Papal domination. The only advantage to that would have been to the Catholic nobles such as Robert Catesby, who wanted their old power and influence back. Fawkes himself became a figure of ridicule amongst the British, as shown by this rhyme.

Remember, remember the fifth of November
It’s Gunpowder Plot, we never forgot
Put your hand in your pocket and pull out your purse
A ha’penny or a penny will do you no harm
Who’s that knocking at the window?
Who’s that knocking at the door?
It’s little Mary Ann with a candle in her hand
And she’s going down the cellar for some coal

Guy Fawkes became identified with the Anarchist movement in the early 20th Century. British Anarchists put up posters with the modern stylized sketch of Fawkes, declaring that Guy Fawkes was the only man to enter Parliament with honest intent. This was, of course, using Guy Fawkes as a figure of ridicule. It was meant as a sort of black joke. Somebody lacking a sense of humor started taking the joke seriously, and the next thing we knew, we had V for Vendetta, and kids wearing Guy Fawkes masks in honor of a man who was trying to put Britain back under Papal control......

source

Hope that answers the questions. Somehow I doubt it.

Go,,,,Guy....Go..Go..Gooo!

(Ask Alan Moore)

It is interesting how much vitriol Smileyfaze has accumulated for the demonstrators, they have more than a few similarities with his movement, though the politics differ. A more pertinent question is that while it is fairly clear what they are against, it is less so what they are for and what they aim to achieve. Of course that could have been said about the Tea Party as well, it was clear they were against Obama and taxes but not so much more. It doesn't seem to me that either group has that much to add, and anyway this is US domestic politics, if the OWS people have internationalised much more readily than the TPers have.

However, I remember the Jaybro wistfully envied the French tendency to take to the street for any slight. Shortly thereafter you got large groups of old people demonstrating and now you also have large groups of young people demonstrating. He should be elated, with the country now turned into France...

Originally posted by jax:

A more pertinent question is that while it is fairly clear what they are against, it is less so what they are for and what they aim to achieve. Of course that could have been said about the Tea Party as well, it was clear they were against Obama and taxes but not so much more.

The TP seemed to be a little more focused, while this Occupy thing seems to be scattershot containing various lefty popular causes: arrest the rich and especially the bankers, apparently; universal health care, zero or at least drastically cut defense spending and on and on. A more pertinent question to me is what sort of influence each group might have and how much it really does mirror overall public opinion. I'm thinking that the Occupiers don't really represent the 99% they claim; in this country they probably represent about 15%, most of whom are college lefties and former college lefties that didn't grow up . The TP's philosophy, if not their brand, is much more resonant with the US public, although populisms from both the left and right are often tempting. However, I'd be willing to bet that the election results in this country next year will show that overall the US is more in line with the TP than with OWS.

Anyway, I don't see very many reports on the total numbers of protestors involved, especially in Manhattan. Does anyone know?

Originally posted by jax:

However, I remember the Jaybro wistfully envied the French tendency to take to the street for any slight. Shortly thereafter you got large groups of old people demonstrating and now you also have large groups of young people demonstrating. He should be elated, with the country now turned into France...

It's not France until some major airports shut down because air traffic control is on strike

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

I never once said they should be clubbed because they are wearing a mask, not at all...I was saying that if the masked trouble makers say just overturned a car & set it afire, & as they were fleeing back to safety into the peacefully protesting crowd the cops were on their tail in hot pursuit.

Sure ya did!

Wearing a mask can be dangerous & detrimental to your health in that case. Ya think?

Then who's fault would it be if the innocent are clubbed?

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Oh, and no I don't mind at all if the cops bustin' up the troublemakers a bit, which has never happened once at a Tea Party rally/protest, because those types would never be allowed to blend in with our crowd.

You say this, despite the fact that I showed you a tea partier dressed as Guy Fawkes, complete with a black leather jacket and hat....

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Save mask wearing for little children having a childish Halloween trick-or-treat, or some gay pride parade where they might not want the football club knowing that their gate swung both ways or that they smoked blunt Tiparillos.

Again, go tell your people the same Do feel free to at the guy with the Starbucks cup as you continue to miss the point entirely.

People were the masks in the spirit of fun and a little rebellion, except black bloc idiots obviously. That's why a small percentage were them to the Occupy and Tea Party rallies. Don't make it into something that it's not. Too late, you already did.

I thought everyone might enjoy a photo of Occupy Las Vegas, courtesy of the Las Vegas Sun:



SF, do note the lack of communist bums, anarchists, etc.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

. The TP's philosophy, if not their brand, is much more resonant with the US public, although populisms from both the left and right are often tempting.

The many of the core messages are, in fact, the same. The Tea Party was as against the bailouts and other corruptions as the Occupy. But than you guys went of on a bizarre tangent, getting into idiocy like "Obama is Kenyan (then Indonesian) Muslim!!!1111!!!", etc. You had a message that could resonate not only with America, but around the world just as the Occupiers do. Let's say you were trying to drive to Denver, but somehow wound up in Miami; that's how far off course the TP went. I'm not sure the TP even has a philosophy anymore. Sure you can copy/pasta one from the TP sites, but the disintegrating movement is so lost in the wilderness that it doesn't hold true anymore.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Anyway, I don't see very many reports on the total numbers of protestors involved, especially in Manhattan. Does anyone know?

Yes. There were something like 20,000. The early figures of 5,000, which some mainstream media jumped on to prove to low turn out turned out to be wrong.

As far as 2012 goes, come on down and we'll place the bet at the Cosmo All that money Romney's getting from the very banks that caused this might help him win the primary, but also help him lose the general election. You said before that you wouldn't be surprised to see Obama get reelected; there's little reason to suspect that the banks won't be dumping millions into tho GOP congressional candidates as well. They'll wish they had turned away the banking lobbyists as well. The people, except maybe TP types, know Obama and the Democrats didn't cause this; the behavior of the banks did.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

SF, do note the lack of communist bums, anarchists, etc.

Unlike

And don't these Occupy crowds look awfully, I dunno...white?

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by fanfaron:

. The TP's philosophy, if not their brand, is much more resonant with the US public, although populisms from both the left and right are often tempting.

The many of the core messages are, in fact, the same. The Tea Party was as against the bailouts and other corruptions as the Occupy. But than you guys went of on a bizarre tangent, getting into idiocy like "Obama is Kenyan (then Indonesian) Muslim!!!1111!!!", etc. You had a message that could resonate not only with America, but around the world just as the Occupiers do.

I wasn't a TPer, but "Obama is a Muslim" wasn't a TP message. It's your simplification and demonization of the TP.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Let's say you were trying to drive to Denver, but somehow wound up in Miami; that's how far off course the TP went. I'm not sure the TP even has a philosophy anymore. Sure you can copy/pasta one from the TP sites, but the disintegrating movement is so lost in the wilderness that it doesn't hold true anymore.

Small government, lower taxes, less spending. Let's see how that stacks up with the country as a whole in contrast to dialectical materialism, class conflict and Noam Chomsky.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Yes. There were something like 20,000. The early figures of 5,000, which some mainstream media jumped on to prove to low turn out turned out to be wrong.

Not very many, considering this has been going on for nearly a month.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

As far as 2012 goes, come on down and we'll place the bet at the Cosmo All that money Romney's getting from the very banks that caused this might help him win the primary, but also help him lose the general election. You said before that you wouldn't be surprised to see Obama get reelected; there's little reason to suspect that the banks won't be dumping millions into tho GOP congressional candidates as well. They'll wish they had turned away the banking lobbyists as well. The people, except maybe TP types, know Obama and the Democrats didn't cause this; the behavior of the banks did.

"The behavior of the banks" in conjunction with government action and inaction caused this. Blaming banks alone while absolving the Sacred Government is a line of b.s. and most people other than raving moonbats know it.

Moderate GOP candidates don't do very well, historically. Romney will be the nominee and he'll lose to Obama in a squeaker. Down ticket, the Democrats may be beaten so badly they'll be out of power for a generation. For the Democrats, ever since he appeared on the scene Obama's represented a Pyrrhic victory.

I will personally pistol whip the next person to badmouth Alan Moore or his work. Just a fair warning.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Some of your stuff has been looking dangerously close to the edge. You might want to ease off that trigger-finger just a hair.

You obviously didn't read what I wrote, so rather than link ya to it again, I will Copy & paste it here for you....& if you don't understand some of the big words, just ask---I'll ease ya through it!

I was not threatening violence, I was just stating that if the violence comes, & it seemingly will, & the violence gets to such a level that the lives & property of the general public are surely at severe risk from such violence, that the militias are prepared to intervene if needed. That's not a threat, it's a promise of support for those that can't protect themselves in their deepest time of need---just the same as if a foreign power landed on the shores of Long Island, or Daytona Beach. .......The only victims here are the innocent general public, not the participants.

I most certainly did read what you wrote. Now, read the following:
Never once have I read of OWS types saying they would institute violence. Some outside agitators might, but not the OWS people themselves.
Never once have I read of ANYBODY on the Left saying they would call on their versions of militias to institute mayhem on Teaparty protests.
So, where do I see something like a call to violence? Any desire to bring in thugs? Uh, huh... your own words, old timer. It makes me ashamed to think I hold conservative ideas. Given what the militias have shown themselves to be--- survivalist right-wing extremist to an alarming extent-- I don't want their help. I fear them about as much at least as I fear any Commie or Anarchist.

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by jax:

However, I remember the Jaybro wistfully envied the French tendency to take to the street for any slight. Shortly thereafter you got large groups of old people demonstrating and now you also have large groups of young people demonstrating. He should be elated, with the country now turned into France...

It's not France until some major airports shut down because air traffic control is on strike

It seems we had one of those. PATCO went on strike, and air traffic in the States was a bit of a mess for a little bit. Then President Reagan fired the lot and we had to hire and train new people. That was interesting, to say the least. So, are we France yet?

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

I most certainly did read what you wrote. Now, read the following:
Never once have I read of OWS types saying they would institute violence. Some outside agitators might, but not the OWS people themselves.
Never once have I read of ANYBODY on the Left saying they would call on their versions of militias to institute mayhem on Teaparty protests.
So, where do I see something like a call to violence? Any desire to bring in thugs? Uh, huh... your own words, old timer. It makes me ashamed to think I hold conservative ideas. Given what the militias have shown themselves to be--- survivalist right-wing extremist to an alarming extent-- I don't want their help. I fear them about as much at least as I fear any Commie or Anarchist.

No need to be ashamed, Smiley and the Tea Party are as 'conservative' as Mussolini was. The meaning of Conservative and Liberal has lost its meaning long time ago it seems. They are now Conservatives and Liberals in name only.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

I wasn't a TPer, but "Obama is a Muslim" wasn't a TP message. It's your simplification and demonization of the TP.

Maybe not an "offical" one, but you damn well know that's what the Right, including tea party members were saying about him.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

"The behavior of the banks" in conjunction with government action and inaction caused this.

No shit, Sherlock. That's what the Occupiers are saying and what I've been saying . However, it was the banks that came out with the dubious financial products such as Derivatives following the deregulation (the government action and inaction bit) that wild speculation, etc that directly caused the Great Recession. Make no mistake, this a financial sector recession. So the banks, thanks to Bush and his friends at Goldman Sachs, got a 700,000,000 bailout, and the bailout included Swiss bank UBS for some reason. After the bailouts, the banks didn't refinance people's home, etc like they were meant to and the so the money never reached middle class homeowners. That was the banks' fault.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Down ticket, the Democrats may be beaten so badly they'll be out of power for a generation.

I still fail to understand why it is that you're so convinced that the GOP will trounce the Democrats. Most of the GOP social issues are history and they're the ones lining up in defense of the banks. Further, polls show this congress has a 13% approval rating and that the Democrats are better suited to handle this economy.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Maybe not an "offical" one, but you damn well know that's what the Right, including tea party members were saying about him.

Yeah, SOME tea party members. SOME lefties also swear that 9/11 was an inside job. Big f*cking deal.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

No shit, Sherlock. That's what the Occupiers are saying and what I've been saying . However, it was the banks that came out with the dubious financial products such as Derivatives following the deregulation (the government action and inaction bit) that wild speculation, etc that directly caused the Great Recession.

I take you've never heard of Fannie and Freddie. Talk to me about "deregulation" after looking into the resistance to regulation of THOSE GSEs by, wonder of wonders, prominent Democrats including Barney Frank, Maxine Waters and others. Look up the clips on YouTube. They've been around forever.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

I still fail to understand why it is that you're so convinced that the GOP will trounce the Democrats.

I know. You couldn't understand it in 2010, either. The TP was sooooo hated that the Democrats would at least break even. It's called "having your head up your ass".

Democrat "solutions" aren't working. "Obamanomics" isn't working.

I came across this quote from someone named Kurt Schlichter writing at the conservative Washington Examiner:

The mainstream media's cameras can't get enough of these pierced protesters, with their crudely written signs proclaiming their unfocused discontent and general anger at society's selfishness in failing to satisfy their every want and desire.

Of course, those cameras discreetly turn away when the placards demanding socialist revolution and blaming the Jews come out. The protesters' function is to demonstrate inchoate outrage simply by being there. When they start talking, they start alienating the normals.

These are Potemkin protesters, community organized by government worker unions to allow liberal Democrats a way to triangulate to the center next year. Only the rebel media outfits will actually stick a mic in the protesters' dirty faces and let them talk.

What comes out is a confused hash of gripes about their banks, complaints about their student loans, and whining about the quality of their jobs.

Tragically, graduates of Ivy League universities brandishing master's degrees in minority women's studies are not getting jobs that pay enough to service their $150,000 student loans. Who could have seen that coming?

Sorry, but that's spot on.

Fanfaron, one thing that got my attention was the bit about whining about their jobs. Permit me a bit of whine, and realize here that my experience is far too common these days.

Five years ago, I was bringing in checks of $2,000 a week, driving a standard Ford Econoline cargo van. You've seen enough of those if you're in almost any American city so posting a photo of one is unnecessary. This past year, I was getting checks in the neighborhood of 750 to maybe 1,000 on a really good week, in that huge Sprinter that you can see in my blog. Now, about half of that rolls back into the business since I'm an independent contractor. Same company/customer, similar routes--- but the rates were drastically cut during these years, so that it became impossible to buy fuel, maintain the vehicle, pay taxes and keep a roof over my head. In the last few months I've switched to expedited freight from local routes, but a quick study shows expedited isn't what it used to be either. Drivers are regularly running freight on rates that they would have refused outright just a couple of years ago. We're on a hair above survival mode now, in a business that never made anybody rich even during the best of times.

Then, throw in the fact that it is nearly impossible to go a week without stories of bank bad behavior, CEOs getting outrageous bonuses for running their companies into the ground, massive layoffs and the folks who still have jobs being asked to do more and more work for less pay. Think the OWS stuff just might gain some traction under such circumstances? Better believe it. Treat good, hard-working people like trash and sooner or later you're going to have trouble... and too many people have been treated like trash for too long. I expect that both Republicans and Democrats may have their troubles before this election cycle is over.

mjmsprt40, you're just confusing him with reality, again. Millions, if not the majority, of Americans are in the same boat. Less income, the same, if not higher bills; which those issues the OWS are protesting.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

I take you've never heard of Fannie and Freddie.

You're the one that hasn't heard the real story. Again, it was lack of regulation. Freddie and Fannie are GSEs, as you know. That meant they weren't required to offset the size of their loan portfolio with enough capital from stock sales to cover it, so they could legally rely on derivatives (remember those, I mentioned them a couple times already.) Meanwhile, even highly qualified borrowers owed more on their homes than they were worth and the rest is history...

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Sorry, but that's spot on.

Are you sure? That's the second most bizarre and incoherent and out of touch rant I've seen about the OWS. I don't think it's possible to beat Glenn Beck screaming that the OWS will drag you out into the street and kill you. Even so, that author gets an "A" for effort trying to claim that the OWS are a bunch of Socialist, anti-semitic Ivy League women's studies graduates. What I don't understand is why some of you folks are trying to make conservative a synonym for crazy.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

----mortgages that they traditionally wouldn't have qualified for, but the Government asked/insisted/legislated that the banks to make-

That's another right-wing misconception.

They're not misconceptions. They're deliberate rituals of litigation. Lawyers know they're lying when they defend a guilty criminal. It's ideologue fodder, not debate.

Only under such drunk states could somebody actually, with a straight face, defend the tea party's lack of existence before Obama, when Bush was spending the real money, yet insisting to stand for fiscal responsibility. It's the same drunk state that religious fundamentalists are under when they "debate" god. Oh, it's not that the bible says bald men can murder for being made fun of, it's just not to be taken literal. Oh, it's not that the Koch Bros. bused in astroturf against threats to their interest, it's that we're independent thinkers that hate govt spending! Delusional nonsense, non-debate or even outright trolling that gets regurgitated ad nauseum.

Fannie, Freddie! ACORN! OBAMA! BILL AYERS AND VAN JONES AND LIONS AND TIGERS AND BEARS! OH MY!

And everyone (the media) doesn't seem to care that these ideologues are repeatedly caught lying. Somehow, these boys that cry Reagan's communist wolf keep getting answered.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

I never once said they should be clubbed because they are wearing a mask, not at all...I was saying that if the masked trouble makers say just overturned a car & set it afire, & as they were fleeing back to safety into the peacefully protesting crowd the cops were on their tail in hot pursuit.

Sure ya did!

Wearing a mask can be dangerous & detrimental to your health in that case. Ya think?

No I didn't you silly Procyonid.

Read it in context ya booby.

What you quoted from me saying said simply of something that theoretically might befall some innocent masked protestors merely due to the fact that they were in the wrong place at the wrong time wearing masks. Period. Nothing more, nothing less.

Geeeeez, you love to embellish what runs rampant in your own mind & nowhere else, don't you!

Now, if the cops bashed a few masked hombres, after they torched a turned over car & smashed a few storefronts, now that I would applaud & never ever deny!!!

Your problem is you can read, but unfortunately your comprehension level is in par with that of a flea. A none to bright flea at that I might add.

Guy Fawkes, the savior of all mankind & the HERO of the OCCUPY MOVEMENT!

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

What you quoted from me saying said simply of something that theoretically might befall some innocent masked protestors merely due to the fact that they were in the wrong place at the wrong time wearing masks. Period. Nothing more, nothing less.

Dude, even saying that is threat, nor did you specify that what circumstances you would bring in your terrorists. I dare say my comprehension of your words, both what's written and what's implied and the spirit in which you wrote it greatly exceeds your own. In any case, law enforcement is not the job of unregulated militias, who, no doubt would make the situation worse. The anarchy in Rome is long over, thanks to proper law enforcement. Get it?

Originally posted by xyzoneon:

Only under such drunk states could somebody actually, with a straight face, defend the tea party's lack of existence before Obama, when Bush was spending the real money, yet insisting to stand for fiscal responsibility. It's the same drunk state that religious fundamentalists are under when they "debate" god. Oh, it's not that the bible says bald men can murder for being made fun of, it's just not to be taken literal. Oh, it's not that the Koch Bros. bused in astroturf against threats to their interest, it's that we're independent thinkers that hate govt spending! Delusional nonsense, non-debate or even outright trolling that gets regurgitated ad nauseum.

Fannie, Freddie! ACORN! OBAMA! BILL AYERS AND VAN JONES AND LIONS AND TIGERS AND BEARS! OH MY!

And everyone (the media) doesn't seem to care that these ideologues are repeatedly caught lying. Somehow, these boys that cry Reagan's communist wolf keep getting answered.

RUSHLIMBAUGHGLENNBECKSARAHPALINKOCHBROTHERSFOXNEWS LIONS TIGERS AND BEARS, OH MY! Independent thinkers. Riiiiiiight. I've never seen such a herd mentality as among the American center-left these days. If you're going to call the TP astroturf then you might as well call that muddled bunch of "Occupiers" pretty much the same. Those eeeeevilllllleeeee, like, TOTALLY unregulated bankers are the root of all our woes. Uh-huh.

And it's good to know that Obama's only been spending Monopoly money, unlike Bush with he "real" money.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Then, throw in the fact that it is nearly impossible to go a week without stories of bank bad behavior, CEOs getting outrageous bonuses for running their companies into the ground, massive layoffs and the folks who still have jobs being asked to do more and more work for less pay. Think the OWS stuff just might gain some traction under such circumstances? Better believe it. Treat good, hard-working people like trash and sooner or later you're going to have trouble... and too many people have been treated like trash for too long. I expect that both Republicans and Democrats may have their troubles before this election cycle is over.

Now tell me specifically how the banks are responsible for your predicament. CEOs? Hell, I remember reading recently how a bogus green-energy company called Solyndra got a total of about a billion dollars (mixed government/ private) "seed" money which they ultimately pissed away. That's your money, mjmsprt40. And yet you're mad because a CEO is tooling around in a Porsche.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Then, throw in the fact that it is nearly impossible to go a week without stories of bank bad behavior, CEOs getting outrageous bonuses for running their companies into the ground, massive layoffs and the folks who still have jobs being asked to do more and more work for less pay. Think the OWS stuff just might gain some traction under such circumstances? Better believe it. Treat good, hard-working people like trash and sooner or later you're going to have trouble... and too many people have been treated like trash for too long. I expect that both Republicans and Democrats may have their troubles before this election cycle is over.

Now tell me specifically how the banks are responsible for your predicament. CEOs? Hell, I remember reading recently how a bogus green-energy company called Solyndra got a total of about a billion dollars (mixed government/ private) "seed" money which they ultimately pissed away. That's your money, mjmsprt40. And yet you're mad because a CEO is tooling around in a Porsche.

It seems the ability to read without comprehending what has been read isn't entirely one-sided. Fan, you read everything I wrote-- no denying that-- and managed to miss completely what I said. Sang was right, confusing you with facts was a bad business.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

It seems the ability to read without comprehending what has been read isn't entirely one-sided. Fan, you read everything I wrote-- no denying that-- and managed to miss completely what I said. Sang was right, confusing you with facts was a bad business.

What did I get factually wrong? I asked you to tell me specifically how bankers are responsible for whatever hardship you're going through right now. Lay off the suck-up routine.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Treat good, hard-working people like trash and sooner or later you're going to have trouble... and too many people have been treated like trash for too long.

Also tell me who's been treating you like trash, and how exactly they've been doing that.

Oh my god. Are you serious? He just told you.

It seems rather quaintly odd that the banks, mortgage con-merchant companies, hedge funders et al are somehow not responsible for the financial meltdown?? Of course their shennanigans have caused this situation and their greed has effected the lives of actual millions and millions. And even those that went to fight for the country overseas on whatever government pretext come back to an even higher rate of unemployment when they leave than that the civilians - nearly 5 times actually. Just shows how being patriotic and flag waving, taking a pride gets you nowhere. And those financial moguls have created a wonderful inticate of subterfuge and accounting to fund their enormous greed that goes well beyond justthe CEOs. As I said earlier even these finacial parasites make money out the poor by having contracts to print the food stamps. Are we to say that the millions losing homes and those conned the middle class folk having to stay in homeles units or worse caused this catastrophe?

No the Wall Street mentality has. It has used, nay, misused capitalism for it's own tenacious ends.It shows no sign of decency and the political parties are party to this because they are in hock to the same lot of damn vultures for their existance. That it has taken so many Americans so long to waken up from the dream mentality pumped into them and realised what the rest of us in the world knew is something surprising. Oh and as for the police they seem to think they are the law. Wyatt Earp mentality.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Oh my god. Are you serious? He just told you.

I really think he can't comprehend what was written. Fan, you've quoted the second paragraph, now have a go at the first and maybe you'll figure it out. Then again, maybe not. I know that I'm not the only one who has lost more than half of what was paid only a few years back--- as I point out, actually a lot more since a really huge Sprinter holds a lot more than a standard Econoline. All of it due to the cutting of rates, not on the reduction of freight volume. How'd that happen? Workers are being asked to do more for less all over the place, and independent contractors like me are taking it in the shorts right and left. We've got guys right now being asked to run loads which barely pay for the fuel, much less anything else, and you think we don't have a beef?

Frankly, it doesn't bother me whether a CEO rolls around in a chauffeur-driven limousine or not, what bothers me is the near absolute lack of any sense of fairness in today's business climate.

Now here's something more on a level that even they might understand!



The problem is when he starts talkin' rather than march they all plop down right in front & clap their lil handies off!

Actually, this mask makes more sense than that Guy Faux fella!

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Actually, this mask makes more sense than that Guy Faux fella!

You were warned...

*pistol whips Smiley*

Maybe they've finally found themselves with their unifying factor, being it's what they all seem to believe in according to this article.

Just plain undirected hate wasn't good enough for them I guess.

Now Anti-Semitism shows up at the Occupy Protests everywhere.


Occupy Wall Street organizer has history of anti-semitic writing

Another topic I'm only getting around to belatedly, but better late than never. I know that the Occupy movement's already been proving themselves truly atrocious. But Alana Goodman at Commentary has found signs that they have some of the most truly despicable people organizing the movement, such as head honcho Kalle Lasn, who has a history of anti-semitic writing.

To make matters worse, the American Nazi Party is also supporting this ludicrous movement. And as this article tells, the Occupy movement appears to be making a push for global socialism. And if you can, take a look at this item about how the movement in Portland was using the f-bomb while chanting anti-Americanism. This is not something the country needs.

Update: Newsbusters indicates that we can't count on the MSM to report the anti-semitism/racism cropping up at these Occupy rallies either.

Here's something the seem to sing with pride!
(Beware--Offensive Language)

Originally posted by Muttsfan:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Actually, this mask makes more sense than that Guy Faux fella!

You were warned...

*pistol whips Smiley*

Thanks Mutt, I needed that! Nothin' like bein' pistol whipped in the morning (morning to me, I'm still on vacation )

As a preface to this comment, I am completely apathetic on the issue of OWS.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Occupy Wall Street organizer has history of anti-semitic writing

Perhaps so, but the movement to the Right of it, going by the name of ATPM, also has it's share of racists, bigots, etc, as I pointed out to you early on in it's inception.

^^Yes, I know that with any that are found out to say such are asked to leave, and would like to go ahead and state that for you, so you don't have to, but my point is that the TP has it's share as well.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

^^Yes, I know that with any that are found out to say such are asked to leave, and would like to go ahead and state that for you, so you don't have to, but my point is that the TP has it's share as well.

True, dawg, we have had our struggles to extinguish those types from attending our festivities as you note, & we've been damn successful at it too.

Another distinct & glaring difference....thank you dawg.

The ATPM vehemently detests that foulness pond scum, whereas the OWS Mob seems to tolerate them!

Originally posted by Muttsfan:

....Alan was not happy...in any case, leave Alan out of your politics.....

Hey, I never heard of, have no desire to know of, & can't give a rats ass about any Alan More or Less, & he has absolutely nothing to do with my politics whatsoever. I hope he never does...

That Guy Faux Mask crap is property of the inventive so called minds of that OWS Mob.

Take yer crank up with them, I can't & won't be bothered.

When you guys cuddle in for the night, give ole Alan a big smooch fer 'coon won't ya....happy now?

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Oh my god. Are you serious? He just told you.

I really think he can't comprehend what was written.

I can comprehend fine. You're as incoherent as the Occupiers and Sanguinemoon, come to think of it.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Fan, you've quoted the second paragraph, now have a go at the first and maybe you'll figure it out. Then again, maybe not. I know that I'm not the only one who has lost more than half of what was paid only a few years back--- as I point out, actually a lot more since a really huge Sprinter holds a lot more than a standard Econoline. All of it due to the cutting of rates, not on the reduction of freight volume. How'd that happen? Workers are being asked to do more for less all over the place, and independent contractors like me are taking it in the shorts right and left. We've got guys right now being asked to run loads which barely pay for the fuel, much less anything else, and you think we don't have a beef?

A beef against whom? That was the question. Who's been treating you like trash?

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Frankly, it doesn't bother me whether a CEO rolls around in a chauffeur-driven limousine or not, what bothers me is the near absolute lack of any sense of fairness in today's business climate.

Now, what do you mean by "fairness"? That gets to the problem with this whole muddled left-populist mishmash. What is the goal here? Absolute equality of income? The end of private banks and private enterprises in general? When there's this mantra of "more regulation", what sort of "regulation" is being talked about that isn't already there? You'd be hard-pressed to find any two industries that are less regulated than banking and insurance, but yet they seem to be the bugaboos at the moment. Let's have some specific answers here. Who is it that has treated you unfairly?

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

You're the one that hasn't heard the real story. Again, it was lack of regulation. Freddie and Fannie are GSEs, as you know. That meant they weren't required to offset the size of their loan portfolio with enough capital from stock sales to cover it, so they could legally rely on derivatives (remember those, I mentioned them a couple times already.) Meanwhile, even highly qualified borrowers owed more on their homes than they were worth and the rest is history...

Uh, yeah. And who was responsible for that "lack of regulation"? Hint: it wasn't the GOP bastards you love to hate, bud. Another hint: go back into the video vault and see who it was that was in Congressional hearings on the matter saying that Fannie and Freddie were in terrific shape and that it was the regulators who needed to be investigated and regulated. And then maybe you can can the idiotic hyperpartisan crap. Another antidote might be to see who exactly "Wall Street" loves to contribute to most.

SF, did you watch the video the Newsbuster presented as as evidence that the OWS is racist/anti-Semitic ? Is this all they have? OK, first of all...at :52 it shows the black man calling Obama a "house n....r" is walking back to rejoin the Tea Party counter protest. Further, that term among African Americans isn't meant to be racist; it basically means a sellout. Get a fucking clue. The "anti-Semite" at 1:32...is a Jew who's upset that his father worked 40 years and is still losing his house and his mother his of a heart-attack from stress. This is pathetic, guy. Why do you want to make me feel sorry for you? The OWS is not racist; it is not anti-Semitic. It's people frustrated by the corruption, the banks behavior and the economic injustice that's happening across globe and the majority (86%) agree with us.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

That Guy Faux Mask crap is property of the inventive so called minds of that OWS Mob.

Again, despite the fact that I showed you tp protester wearing one long before the OWS started. :sigh: It must be sad being you.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

The OWS is not racist; it is not anti-Semitic. It's people frustrated by the corruption, the banks behavior and the economic injustice that's happening across globe and the majority (86%) agree with us.

No, OWS does not have an 86% "approval rating". And give me a break. You recently dropped comments over 50 pages or so in the Tea Party thread using every tiny shred of evidence that TPers were racists. Now enter "anti-semitism occupy wall street" into the search engine of your choice.

Oh certainly. The anti-semitism charge is the latest pathetic charges that won't work any better than the commie/dirty hippie charge did. It's sad, really. Right-wingers finally noticedAmerica is on our side, so they have to make shit up that doesn't begin to make sense. All those hippy, liberal Jew haters....rightttttt....:pats them on the head:

Originally posted by fanfaron:

No, OWS does not have an 86% "approval rating".

The total approval rating is 54%, somewhere around 24 are inclined to agree with the OWS. The disapproval rating somewhat less than the tp incredibly low approval rating. The 86% figure is explained earlier in the thread, but it has to do with agreement over the major cause of the protest, which is..all together now...the corruption and bailouts.

I think that these protests had characteristics that should make people look at them with attention.
- it's global nature. Globalization destroying itself.
- the protests weren't lead by political parties. Finally...
and why simple citizens expressing themselves seems to be so menacing for several sectors.

Yes, it does need a good look at....then quickly look away in disgust & pity.

Do they want:

To Reform the System, or To Collapse the System through Open Rebellion?

Collapse the System through Open Rebellion, to feed on the blood of Societies corpse --- like thankless leeches.

What form of economy do they want,,Free Enterprise & Free Markets, or Socialism---------- They want Socialism, the Socialism that was prevalent all over Europe.

But look at those systems. They are a basket chuck full of failures.

Why would anybody want to have something that has already failed, or is free-falling into failure?

In the end, Socialism will always fail when the source of everyone else's money eventually dries up.


Today 53% of Americans support the OWS......not support as in what they are doing, or who they are, but actually financially supporting the poor puppies that won't get, don't want, or refuse to find a job.

This victim BS -- that the world owes them anything & everything -- is just that,,,, BS.

The world owes them NOTHING...ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!.

In America's system of Free Enterprise, America offers all peoples the power & opportunity to prosper, not some sort of guaranteed success, as if everyone is obligated to chip in in order to level the playing field, & give them a pass to first base.

No, just an opportunity, where if not taken advantage of, will slip through your fingers.

The beautiful thing is that the only thing that can beat you in the end is yourself, but unfortunately the Occupiers want nothing to do with taking that extra step, walking that extra mile, putting in that extra effort over & over, to lift themselves up & give themselves the opportunity of success.

They only want to envy the fruits of everyone else's labors.

No, the Occupiers would rather get shitfaced, & then whine about everything --- everything except their own lack of self-motivation & personal responsibility for making something of themselves. The best party they always go to is their own pity party.

Why, because it's never their fault for not succeeding, it's everyone else's fault.

They are the eternal victims, or so they lament, & the world is holding them back from getting their free fair share.

Poor babies!!!

Well, they best be prepared for the big crash & let down...because the world is not going to buy into their ruse, it just aint goin' to happen, that is unless they take the personal responsibility to do it for themselves.

Oh, & they actually have the nerve to demand that those that have made something for themselves, the self made entrepreneurs, those that were willing put everything they had on the line & to take the chance, give these leeches a big share of what they have made, because in their minds that's only fair.

Earn,,,hey, bite your tongue!

They decry the successes of everyone else, & are seething with envy because the money that others earned isn't theirs...as if someone owes what they have to them for some unknown reason.

Well, they best start to take responsibility for their own futures, take responsibility for their own lives, take responsibility for their own incomes.

What you get in the end will be the total sum of what you have earned for yourself.

What others have earned does not belong to you, so hands off, your not entitled to any of it...period, end of story.

Either pay for the ride, or GTF off! please exit at your next opportunity.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Oh certainly. The anti-semitism charge is the latest pathetic charges that won't work any better than the commie/dirty hippie charge did. It's sad, really. Right-wingers finally noticedAmerica is on our side, so they have to make shit up that doesn't begin to make sense. All those hippy, liberal Jew haters....rightttttt....:pats them on the head:

Sucks to be judged by your own dishonest standards, huh?

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

The total approval rating is 54%, somewhere around 24 are inclined to agree with the OWS. The disapproval rating somewhat less than the tp incredibly low approval rating. The 86% figure is explained earlier in the thread, but it has to do with agreement over the major cause of the protest, which is..all together now...the corruption and bailouts.

According to the Reuters/Ipsos poll mentioned earlier, the figure is closer to 38%. And hmmmm...it's a small group that's both pro-corruption and pro-bailouts (though I'll bet the "Occupiers" don't care too much about the GM bailout). The major cause of the protest, as the writer I quoted mentioned, is to allow the Democrats to run to the center next year. Nothing more.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

What others have earned does not belong to you, so hands off, your not entitled to any of it...period, end of story.

Either pay for the ride, or GTF off! please exit at your next opportunity.

Me? sorry but I'm out of your little carrousel, no need to ask me for the ticket.
No one is trying to rob you nothing, people just don't tolerate anymore to be robbed. With the same vehemency as yours.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

According to the Reuters/Ipsos poll mentioned earlier, the figure is closer to 38%. And hmmmm...it's a small group that's both pro-corruption and pro-bailouts (though I'll bet the "Occupiers" don't care too much about the GM bailout).

The newer the polls, the higher the support numbers. Polls by Time now show 54%. Of course, even 38% is kicking the tp's ass...

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Why would anybody want to have something that has already failed, or is free-falling into failure?

Beats me why you guys continue to support what's failed. No, this isn't a socialist revolution. It's honest working people giving voice to their grievances.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Why, because it's never their fault for not succeeding, it's everyone else's fault.

Yeah, that message will definitely go over with hard working people that lost their jobs in the latest round of layoffs and now has the bank breathing down their neck to take their home. When the economy goes to hell in a handbasket, not everything that happens to people is their own fault. Just how out of touch are you?

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

What others have earned does not belong to you, so hands off, your not entitled to any of it...period, end of story.

Tell it to the banks. They took $700,000,000,000 of the taxpayers money and continue to screw over the people. Back when the tp could have meant something, you guys were against the bailouts. Now you protest those that protest the bailouts because the tp is corrupt and part of the problem.

I've been reading reports recently that tie into this. Consider:
10 percent + unemployment, some people have been out of work for over a year. When they go to apply for jobs, they are met with signs saying the unemployed need not apply.

The economy isn't very healthy at the moment, one thing that keeps coming up in reports is that consumer confidence is failing, and unless consumers start spending more the businesses-- which aren't hiring anyway in case you haven't noticed-- won't hire.

Hmmm.... could be a problem here. Consumers who have lost jobs and can't get new ones aren't likely to do much spending, at least above survival, so that means they're unlikely to boost the economy. When they ask folk like Smiley for a break, they get told to pay for the ride or get the @#$%$ off. Then Smiley wonders why his POV looks a trifle jaundiced to some of the rest of us.

Wait, what--- you mean you didn't know???? All those people who got laid off and can't get new jobs, or if they do get a job it's at a fraction of what they used to earn--- all those folk were CONSUMERS on whom you're depending on bringing back the economy. I reckon they're not going to help the economy by buying new cars, because according to Smiley they should be happy they're allowed to live in the back seat of an abandoned ten-year-old car--- and don't dare ask Smiley for any of his money.

Here's a clue: Smiley, nobody's asking for your money. A decent break, a job that actually allows a working man to keep a roof over his family's head-- that would be plenty. But, apparently that's too much to ask and you TP'ers would rather good working men get the heck out of this country.

This stuff is so simple it shouldn't take a truck driver to explain it to you. But, apparently-- given the responses I'm sure to get on this post-- this explanation will shoot right over some of your heads. My disgust knows no bounds.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

This stuff is so simple it shouldn't take a truck driver to explain it to you. But, apparently-- given the responses I'm sure to get on this post-- this explanation will shoot right over some of your heads. My disgust knows no bounds.

*tips hat*

to that!

"Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all."

^^Thought for the day.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

This stuff is so simple it shouldn't take a truck driver to explain it to you. But, apparently-- given the responses I'm sure to get on this post-- this explanation will shoot right over some of your heads. My disgust knows no bounds.

*tips hat*

Well said mj, the more you read the Smiley and the rest of the Tea Part Affiliates posts here, the more you find out just how deeply deluded they are.
It is that: "Fuck you, I've got mine" mentality that shows who they really represent

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

What others have earned does not belong to you, so hands off, your not entitled to any of it...period, end of story.

Tell it to the banks. They took $700,000,000,000 of the taxpayers money and continue to screw over the people. Back when the tp could have meant something, you guys were against the bailouts. Now you protest those that protest the bailouts because the tp is corrupt and part of the problem.

If that was bailout money, they didn't deserve any of it, but last I looked the Government gave that money to the banks....stupid I know, & a cryin' freakin' disgrace, but gave it to them nonetheless.

The Government is criminal here if anyone, & the banks are just manipulative opportunists of the worst kind. The Banks certainly do skrew over the people with obnoxious & ridiculous fees though...that is true.

But please tell us though, how they "stole" it?? How did the banks steal your money??

Straight up.....How did the Banks steal the Bailout Money?????

Did GM steal from you too?

Did everyone that got a bail-out steal from you as well???

Or is it just merely more convenient in your overall VICTIM claim aka lie if everyone is completely misled to believe that the money was stolen when in fact the Government gave it to them?

Face it, your all just a bunch of selfish, blood sucking leeches, with a few thousand legitimate unfortunates, who really are down on their luck, thrown in for credible cover!

I'd just like to say that John/Jane Q. Taxpayer had his/her money stolen by both the 43rd President and the 44th.

In regards to bankers, I see them as just a big a threat to the US's security as Islamofascism and the US military-industrial complex.
I have no love for any of those greedy f***s and if I didn't absolutely have to have a bank account, I can assure you I would not have one.

Sic Semper Bankers!

kul

Smiley, I'm not going to quote any of your last post here because quite frankly it disgusts me beyond words, but I do have a question.

You say the government gave the banks that money, that it wasn't a bailout but rather a gift, and therefore it wasn't stolen from us.
OK, the $64,000.00 question: Where does the government get that money??? Last time I checked, they don't have a money tree that grows hundred-dollar bills, nor did the tooth fairy leave it under the pillow, and I'm reasonably certain-- though can't be sure-- that Santa Claus didn't bring it down from the North Pole. Could it be that the money the government handed over so freely to the banks and to big business was taxed from the people? Nah, that couldn't be, could it?

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Smiley, I'm not going to quote any of your last post here because quite frankly it disgusts me beyond words, but I do have a question.

You say the government gave the banks that money, that it wasn't a bailout but rather a gift, and therefore it wasn't stolen from us.
OK, the $64,000.00 question: Where does the government get that money??? Last time I checked, they don't have a money tree that grows hundred-dollar bills, nor did the tooth fairy leave it under the pillow, and I'm reasonably certain-- though can't be sure-- that Santa Claus didn't bring it down from the North Pole. Could it be that the money the government handed over so freely to the banks and to big business was taxed from the people? Nah, that couldn't be, could it?

It wasn't a gift, but nowhere in the documentation will you find any mandatory repayment schedule to speak of, so it may as well been a gift.

Now, I hate taxes probably more than most, but even though dawg made a legitimate case for the legal authority/ability/right of the government to collect taxes the way they do, the government taxes us nonetheless. According to the Supreme Court the Government, through the 16th Amendment to the Constitution, has that right because whether actually Constitutional or not, it collects those taxes with our agreement/consent-------long before both of us were born--------but via our permission contained in the 16th. Constitutional Amendment nevertheless. Someday this may change, but I'm not holding my breath.

In my mind, as well as yours I'm sure, it never is actually the Governments money, it's still the peoples money---we still like to feel we still own it.

In the end, the Government taxes & we agree to pay.

Now all that being said, the question here is twofold:

Q1.- How did the money (our money given to the Government) leave the Governments control, & transfer to the Banks control?

Q2.- Was there any repayment procedure outlined when the Bailout money was transferred?

A1.- The Government gave the Banks the money in the form of a Bailout. The Government wasn't forced to do this, it was done with Congressional consent---you know those guys that are supposed to represent us---as dawg said earlier, by Bush initially, & in a bigger way subsequently by Obama.

A2.- No repayments were called for, or any accommodations made for by the legislation formalizing any of the 'Bailouts' given to the Banks by the Government.

Is/was that actually theft?

Unfortunately, I sincerely doubt you would be successful proving theft anywhere, except in the' court of public opinion'.

Like you, it sickens me to death that these bailouts took place in the first place, & further still that they don't have to pay any of it back, but unfortunately the fact is now part of history.

Now, I may be wrong here, but who instigated the Bailouts? -- The Bush & Obama Administrations, along with Congress --- The Government.

Where should the OWS, or anyone else, direct any anger, or frustrations concerning these Bailouts? ----- THE GOVERNMENT

If the Occupy Mob really wanted to place the blame where it belongs, it should be protesting the Government in Washington DC instead of inconveniencing anyone else--or don't they think that the citizens they are inconveniencing all over the USA are part of their so called 99%

After all if all those protestors would converge on the White House Front Lawn--or the Capitol Steps, don't you think it would garner more credibility, & have a greater impact?

Placing the blame where it legitimately belongs in the first place....in the Faces of the US Government!!!!!!

What has been going on is a form of institutional or corporate fraud and money moving and to a degree that is staggering. Unfortunately due to the closeness of the political other Barons who are dependent on the corporates they are in it together to a degree. It is as plain as the nose on your face but unbelievingly it is mind-blowing how someone cannot se this but is almost apologetic to that motley crew of financial greed people who have destroyed millions of lives and couldn't care a tuppeny damn what happens to them as long as they can continue to move money about to their own ends and use the taxpayer into the bargain. Decent people have been ruined and they must wonder what they have done wrong. Thankfully, more and more ordinary people are realising what has been seen from a distance up until now. Disgusting is a mannerly and least way of putting it.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

What has been going on is a form of institutional or corporate fraud and money moving and to a degree that is staggering. Unfortunately due to the closeness of the political other Barons who are dependent on the corporates they are in it together to a degree. It is as plain as the nose on your face but unbelievingly it is mind-blowing how someone cannot se this but is almost apologetic to that motley crew of financial greed people who have destroyed millions of lives and couldn't care a tuppeny damn what happens to them as long as they can continue to move money about to their own ends and use the taxpayer into the bargain. Decent people have been ruined and they must wonder what they have done wrong. Thankfully, more and more ordinary people are realising what has been seen from a distance up until now. Disgusting is a mannerly and least way of putting it.

Well, RJ, you seem to say everything is plain as the nose on your face, so if that's so easily understood, then the specific cure must also be abundantly clear.

Put your money where your mouth is.

How would RJ solve the financial problem(s), rather than just aimlessly winging about them, or spewing you typical anti-American balderdash?

Please outline for the world how RJ would specifically handle the problem, & how specifically, step by step, would RJ take the existing world financial structures from this height of greed & destruction, to one more palatable to RJ and the so called 99%, with their innermost financial needs in mind, model citizens one & all.

Specifics to guide the world only RJ, not generalities that can't be measured of implemented.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

How would RJ solve the financial problem(s), rather than just aimlessly winging about them, or spewing you typical anti-American balderdash?

*Dawg looks forward to seeing the answer to this query*
An excellent question SF.

Good to see you have the patience to entertain the immobile Robert J. Howie, b/c I long ago ran out of patience with his dithering non-answers which are nothing short of cowardice.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Placing the blame where it legitimately belongs in the first place....in the Faces of the US Government!!!!!!

A true and good point.
However, SF, you seem to miss the point that whether or not it's a Repub Administration or a Democratic Administration, Wall St and D.C. are in it together as thick as thieves, and I do mean that absolutely literally.

But yeah, if OWS is going to continue, it should definitely spread to D.C. as well. It could be called O.D.C. the brother of OWS.

Seems I've heard something about OWS types already being arrested in DC. Uprisings of the sort are happening all over the place it appears, we've had them here in the Windy City too. The natives are getting restless....

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

However, SF, you seem to miss the point that whether or not it's a Repub Administration or a Democratic Administration, Wall St and D.C. are in it together as thick as thieves, and I do mean that absolutely literally.

I agree, but without the tools of Wahington D.C., Wall Street can't legitimately legislate, & make the bed comfortable, so to speak.

Hey, I despise the Bank's Crony Capitalism too, so please don't get me wrong there, but in the end they both need the bejesis shook out of 'em.

If they eventually see da light, & come around, we will always need the banks to proceed.

Washington D.C can't create jobs, they can just ask for them, but Wall Street can & will. No bucks, no Buck Rodgers.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

But yeah, if OWS is going to continue, it should definitely spread to D.C. as well. It could be called O.D.C. the brother of OWS.

Make Government understand that the status quo is unacceptable, through legislation they can effectually convince Wall Street....Focus on one site---in numbers never seen before---shock & awe them into submission, get mainstream America on your side, & as long as your message isn't tainted with violence & hate you will have a chance to succeed.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

No I don't think it is right to pepper spray in that situation. It is hardly phenomenal masses. The fact that Wall Street is a protected species only belies the fact the country is actually run from there. Anything else is a front. They caused the crisis but it is the ordinary who suffer whilst they get away with daylight robbery inckluding of the peoples' taxes.

It's the same in the UK, the banks aren't businesses, they're organised crime.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

I agree, but without the tools of Wahington D.C., Wall Street can't legitimately legislate, & make the bed comfortable, so to speak.

True.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Hey, I despise the Bank's Crony Capitalism too, so please don't get me wrong there, but in the end they both need the bejesis shook out of 'em.

I think jail time would be much more appropriate for some. I don't mean those nice prisons either....

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Make Government understand that the status quo is unacceptable, through legislation they can effectually convince Wall Street....Focus on one site---in numbers never seen before---shock & awe them into submission, get mainstream America on your side, & as long as your message isn't tainted with violence & hate you will have a chance to succeed.

Indeed.

No violence in the US has occurred as of yet to my knowledge.


Oh, and as a post-script to Mr. Howie:

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

I think jail time would be much more appropriate for some. I don't mean those nice prisons either....

Absolutely!

One in in Central Australia---in the desert outback---hundreds of miles from any civilization, where the heat gets up to 115 degrees 7 months of the year, where there are 11 of the most poisonous snakes & spiders on the planet, no rain for years...yadda...yadda...yadda

All prisoners must wear a titanium neck band that is loaded with a charge of C-4 & is set to explode 1/2 mile from the transmission center, but you don't tell them where the transmission center is or that the necklace is even loaded at all!

Hey Mike what was that explosion out there in the distance?....I dunno Frank, but it happens every day. Hey, you seen Murry?...Yeah he said he was goin' for a walk 2 hours ago.

For their entire sentence they dig holes in the sun Monday, Wednesday, & Friday....They fill the same holes on the other days......Oh,,,, BTW,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


......................................................................................... no shovels

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Placing the blame where it legitimately belongs in the first place....in the Faces of the US Government!!!!!!

So this is anybody's fault but the ones that did it? Of course, I have no concept how you pulled out your ass that these are pro-tax demonstrations. We have transcended stereotypical Conservative v Liberal issues and have done so since the beginning of the movement.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Q2.- Was there any repayment procedure outlined when the Bailout money was transferred?

No, there wasn't. Yet again, the banks needed increased regulation. Greed and corruption are the heart of the beast.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Make Government understand that the status quo is unacceptable, through legislation they can effectually convince Wall Street....Focus on one site---in numbers never seen before---shock & awe them into submission, get mainstream America on your side, & as long as your message isn't tainted with violence & hate you will have a chance to succeed.

The shock and awe is being felt across the world, so don't worry about us. Thanks, though Oh yeah, mainstream America is on our side when you even glance at the numbers; maybe that's because we ARE mainstream America (and mainstream UK, France, Germany....)

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Hey, I despise the Bank's Crony Capitalism too, so please don't get me wrong there, but in the end they both need the bejesis shook out of 'em.

So why are you so vehemently against us on this, to the point of trying to paint us as anti-Semitic racists. It makes zero sense.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

[...] motley crew of financial greed people who have destroyed millions of lives and couldn't care a tuppeny damn what happens to them as long as they can continue to move money about to their own ends and use the taxpayer into the bargain. Decent people have been ruined and they must wonder what they have done wrong. Thankfully, more and more ordinary people are realising what has been seen from a distance up until now.

That's the reason why that movement is known in Europe as "Indignants". There are limits for everything.
Human lives are above financial transactions and capitalism can't be some angry God demanding human sacrifices of millions. This is not even about politics or strictly economics, this is about dignity. The deep reason why communist regime had fallen was because it denied dignity to people and this savage capitalism without values is going exactly the same way.
It will also fall.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Placing the blame where it legitimately belongs in the first place....in the Faces of the US Government!!!!!!

So this is anybody's fault but the ones that did it?

The failed economic policies of the past 4 Administrations, but particularly policies started in the mid 90's that opened the door for people, who didn't have any business getting mortgages because of their debt to income ratios, prior credit history, & lack of a down payment. This put the house they shouldn't even have qualified for, the one they wished for, in jeopardy from day one!

Or like allowing refinancing additional mortgage equity loans, that put outstanding debt ceilings way past the safety mark, so when the property decreased in value, & went upside down (owed more than the house was worth) many loans were called in...see my post a few back outlining this.

These insane policies were allowed to continue up until just a few years ago, when it all hit the fan!

Barney Frank saying that Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac were preforming quite well, & he was quoted as predicting clear sailing way into the future, deceiving everyone into a false sense of security,& causing average people to make investments based on his words, & end up losing their proverbial shirts!

When it hit the fan though, & all went pear shaped, he denied even saying it, even though there are taped meetings with his statements to the fact that he did --- many times --- in C-SPAN archives. He never was investigated, or even called to task by his fellow committee members.

The banks devised many 'creative' ways to profit from these insane rules, but they couldn't have done so without the complicity of the Federal Government, who initiated the rules through Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac requiring the banks to loosen up their lending to less qualified, even unqualified borrowers, & letting homeowners access their equity at extremely high levels.

So, even though the banks were not guilt free by a far shot, it was really the insane Federal policies noted previously that really skrewed the people big time!!!

Do some research, & you will find what you just read 100% undeniable fact.

I can't stand the banks myself, but ya gotta call a spade a spade, & put the onus on those that actually were at the root of the breakdown.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT