Occupy Wall Street protests not valid?

Is it ok for police to pepper spray peaceful protesters and then walk away?



Oh, and the media hardly covers the protests themselves, much less this so there's only youtube.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Hey, I despise the Bank's Crony Capitalism too, so please don't get me wrong there, but in the end they both need the bejesis shook out of 'em.

So why are you so vehemently against us on this, to the point of trying to paint us as anti-Semitic racists. It makes zero sense.

Because, in more than one way, OWS is what the teabaggers pretend to be.

I Wall Street!

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

So, even though the banks were not guilt free by a far shot, it was really the insane Federal policies noted previously that really skrewed the people big time!!!

Do some research, & you will find what you just read 100% undeniable fact.

I can't stand the banks myself, but ya gotta call a spade a spade, & put the onus on those that actually were at the root of the breakdown.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT

I can agree with you about the past four administrations (don't forget the Congresses, though.) But I'm still not seeing how its the fault of the Federal Government, besides lack of oversight. The Federal government stepped out their way, thinking these were the big boys who understood how the economy works. The derivatives and whatnot will all products the deregulated financial sector

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

who didn't have any business getting mortgages because of their debt to income ratios, prior credit history, & lack of a down payment. This put the house they shouldn't even have qualified for, the one they wished for, in jeopardy from day one!

That's true. Many of those sub-prime loans should not have been made in the first place. But the banks engaged in predatory lending practices and made them anyway and then set up derivatives against them. It was a very sordid affair.

Now my home is upside, and it was solid loan, not sub-prime. My across the street neighbor had to walk away from his home, which he got with his 700+ (at the time) Fico store and six figure income. It wasn't all people making 20,000 a year that couldn't really afford their home (I can understand low income people trying to get some equity and homeownership, though. )

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Barney Frank saying that Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac were preforming quite well, & he was quoted as predicting clear sailing way into the future, deceiving everyone into a false sense of security,& causing average people to make investments based on his words, & end up losing their proverbial shirts!

Yup he did say that. Just because he's a Democrat doesn't mean he's right, just like because somebody's in the GOP doesn't make him/her right. There is an interesting fact about Freddie and Fanny though; their ratio of toxic to good loans was actually better than a whole lot better than many of the banks. Their problem, like I said, was trying back it all up with with derivatives.

There is another financial product that I'm leery of, even those it doesn't seem to play a part in this particular crises - but might be part of the next one. Those are the so-called reverse mortgages. Even when I worked at Chase, I had very bad instincts about that. Suppose another housing bubble pops; the home goes upside down and you no longer have any equity to draw from. Then when one dies, one's heirs get stuck having to repay that equity that the banks paid one. There goes the entire estate, and there's more of the wealth redistribution from the middle class to the rich. Of course, the HUD seems to encourage them.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

The failed economic policies of the past 4 Administrations

Incorrect. It has been the failed policies of the past 6 administrations.

Wow ho it's your country that has got itself into that cris mess by having little or no effective control over the corporate capitalist mob. Any form of control over there is seen as some horrible giant step to leftist or Socialist directions. Daft. What about the Morgage companies that fiddled people? The banks that did the same on housing? The corporate barons who pilfhered, siphoned and wangled funds to make it difficult to see what they were doing? There should have been strict controls over all these areas and made sure they were applied. Millions out of work, millions each year losing homes but very dew of the money men in jail where they damn well should be.

If you lot did that and could only get out of this drummed in fear of the left or anything perceived as such you would do better than you are doing. You whole system stinks and goes beyond these worldly faults and lack of control. My kicks at America are at the country not the people but are so easy because you have set it up yourselves. The country is split down the middle and the Hill is a vast monied squabbling hoise of deep division and very little compromise. You are too far into the big business mantra as are your political cronies. The two-oarty system is failing the capitalism system has been a free for all and now many of your own are seeing this many for the first time. Applying rules, controllin capitalism, jailing the fraudsters who have used YOUR money to continue their pillage. That greed is bad enough effecting your own country but due to the place of the dollar it the world thrown into this maelstorm now too. Maybe another world currency in time too I reckon?

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by fanfaron:

According to the Reuters/Ipsos poll mentioned earlier, the figure is closer to 38%. And hmmmm...it's a small group that's both pro-corruption and pro-bailouts (though I'll bet the "Occupiers" don't care too much about the GM bailout).

The newer the polls, the higher the support numbers. Polls by Time now show 54%. Of course, even 38% is kicking the tp's ass...

Makes no difference what the TP's numbers are. People still oppose the health care law, $14 trillion in debt and generally say taxes should be reduced. I'm not commenting on the merit of all of that, but that's Tea Party, bud. Like I say, it has a lot to do with media coverage. The TP was branded as a bunch of violent moronic racists almost from the get-go. However, let's dig into how representative and "mainstream" each is, shall we? Start here.

The protesters have a distinct ideology and are bound by a deep commitment to radical left-wing policies. On Oct. 10 and 11, Arielle Alter Confino, a senior researcher at my polling firm, interviewed nearly 200 protesters in New York's Zuccotti Park. Our findings probably represent the first systematic random sample of Occupy Wall Street opinion.

Our research shows clearly that the movement doesn't represent unemployed America and is not ideologically diverse. Rather, it comprises an unrepresentative segment of the electorate that believes in radical redistribution of wealth, civil disobedience and, in some instances, violence. Half (52%) have participated in a political movement before, virtually all (98%) say they would support civil disobedience to achieve their goals, and nearly one-third (31%) would support violence to advance their agenda.

The vast majority of demonstrators are actually employed, and the proportion of protesters unemployed (15%) is within single digits of the national unemployment rate (9.1%). Thus Occupy Wall Street is a group of engaged progressives who are disillusioned with the capitalist system and have a distinct activist orientation. Among the general public, by contrast, 41% of Americans self-identify as conservative, 36% as moderate, and only 21% as liberal. That's why the Obama-Pelosi embrace of the movement could prove catastrophic for their party.

In other words, OWS is just a cross-section of moonbatdom. And I hasten to point out that the author of this WSJ piece is a long-time Democratic pollster.

Then you can read this.

When asked whom they blame more for the poor economy in the poll conducted over the weekend, 64% of Americans faulted the federal government while 30% cited big banks and other financial institutions. Still, there was a strong populist thread against both big business and government in the responses, with 78% of the respondents saying Wall Street bears a great deal or a fair amount of blame for the struggling economy. But more people, 87%, said the same about the central government.

You're free to pull your head out of your backside any time, Sanguinemoon.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

This stuff is so simple it shouldn't take a truck driver to explain it to you. But, apparently-- given the responses I'm sure to get on this post-- this explanation will shoot right over some of your heads. My disgust knows no bounds.

Maybe you should learn the difference between "simple" and "simplistic". You're hurting, therefore it's Wall Street's fault. Banks took bailout money -- in some cases were forced to do so, and how much of it has been paid back already? -- and since this was taxpayer money then you as a taxpayer are entitled to be completely unencumbered and unrestricted by anything any bank does. What they have is really yours.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

In other words, OWS is just a cross-section of moonbatdom.

So clearly the majority of people are a cross-section of moonbatdom. Thanks for letting us know Of course, the WSG, the mouthpiece of the 1% will say something like that. It's their control over politics in not only this country, but around the world, is what's at stake.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

41% of Americans self-identify as conservative, 36% as moderate, and only 21% as liberal. That's why the Obama-Pelosi embrace of the movement could prove catastrophic for their party.

And this is why they have no clue. It's not a liberal movement. It's ground swell against, well those things shown in the cartoon shared by Muttsfan

BTW, I was not aware that Ron Paul is a Leftist moonbat. Thanks for that heads-up too.

Muttsfan, exactly.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

BTW, I was not aware that Ron Paul is a Leftist moonbat. Thanks for that heads-up too.

…You could easily have found out for yourself, Sang, that Ron Paul is a moon-bat. Left-wing? Right-wing? A moon-bat is a moon-bat, regardless.
Is Ron Paul expected to surpass Pat Paulsen's number of write-in votes, this time around?

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

This stuff is so simple it shouldn't take a truck driver to explain it to you. But, apparently-- given the responses I'm sure to get on this post-- this explanation will shoot right over some of your heads. My disgust knows no bounds.

Maybe you should learn the difference between "simple" and "simplistic". You're hurting, therefore it's Wall Street's fault. Banks took bailout money -- in some cases were forced to do so, and how much of it has been paid back already? -- and since this was taxpayer money then you as a taxpayer are entitled to be completely unencumbered and unrestricted by anything any bank does. What they have is really yours.

Managed to miss the whole point completely again, did you? That's what I expected, and once again you proved that reading what's actually written and understanding that isn't your strong suit.

Originally posted by OakdaleFTL:

? A moon-bat is a moon-bat, regardless.
Is Ron Paul expected to surpass Pat Paulsen's number of write-in votes, this time around?

I can help understand



Forest



Tree

Maybe now you guys can see the forest for the trees I'm so helpful!

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by OakdaleFTL:

? A moon-bat is a moon-bat, regardless.
Is Ron Paul expected to surpass Pat Paulsen's number of write-in votes, this time around?

I can help understand



Forest



Tree

Maybe now you guys can see the forest for the trees I'm so helpful!

Nice try, but if Fanfaron's response to my post was any indication it'll still go right over their heads.

Originally posted by OakdaleFTL:

…You could easily have found out for yourself, Sang, that Ron Paul is a moon-bat.

Out of curiousity, and this is totally off-topic, exactly who is it that you are so high on in the -OP field of nominees?
Is it Mr. ObamneyCare? Perhaps the tax-raiser aka former President of the Federal Reserve in Kansas City?
Or perhaps it's Mr. Perry, who wants to use Predator drones on the Texas-Mexico border?

Curious minds would like to know.....

OK, Fan, let's try this again. Read the link below;

http://my.opera.com/lounge/forums/findpost.pl?id=10564702

Now, where exactly did I say that Wall Street and the banks have my money and need to give it back???

I will say this, GM did pay back the bailouts, it may be that others did too. One reason GM was quick to pay it back: It crimped their style. See, just after these bailouts a couple of outfits got caught throwing lavish parties and issuing huge bonuses to their top executives. This would not do, so the government issued some "You can't do that" directives on how that bailout money was to be spent. GM decided to pay off the bailout just as fast as they could so they could return to "business as usual" and issue big fat bonuses to executives again. As long as they had government money they couldn't do that, it looks bad and will get in the news double-quick. But now, with the government paid off they can do it again and it's nobody outside the corporation's business--- at least until the next time the top executive's bone-headed decisions drive the corporation to near bankruptcy and we the people have to bail them out again.

So, answer me this: If a mail clerk makes an expensive mistake, he's fired on short notice and will count himself lucky if he gets severance pay. If the CEO makes an expensive mistake he gets a huge bonus, and if he does manage to get fired his severance package might make an average man wealthy for life---- am I missing something here? Both deserve firing, no question about that, but the disparity in severance can't help but be noticed--- and is indirectly feeding much of the OWS stuff right now.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

If the CEO makes an expensive mistake he gets a huge bonus, and if he does manage to get fired his severance package might make an average man wealthy for life---- am I missing something here?

The idea is to send him into early retirement and keep him there. Considering what kind of damage he might otherwise do it's probably worth the money
Now about that 'keep him there' part...

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

So clearly the majority of people are a cross-section of moonbatdom. Thanks for letting us know Of course, the WSG, the mouthpiece of the 1% will say something like that. It's their control over politics in not only this country, but around the world, is what's at stake.

WSJ. And as I said, the piece was written by a longtime Democratic pollster. That head of yours is going to be up your ass a long time, it appears. Probably for life, I guess. I suppose Gallup is also the mouthpiece of that mythical 1%:

Not surprisingly, Americans who consider themselves supporters of the Occupy Wall Street movement (26% of all Americans) are more likely to blame Wall Street than the federal government for the nation's economic problems. Supporters of the Tea Party movement (22% of Americans) are overwhelmingly likely to blame the government. Republicans and independents blame the federal government more; Democrats are split essentially in half, with about as many blaming Wall Street as blame the federal government.

Twenty-six percent, Sanguinemoon. And that's without the Tea Party's bad press. Yep, that's slightly larger than moonbatdom, but only slightly.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

And this is why they have no clue. It's not a liberal movement. It's ground swell against, well those things shown in the cartoon shared by Muttsfan

Groundswell.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Managed to miss the whole point completely again, did you? That's what I expected,

So what IS your point? That life sucks and is unfair?

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

I will say this, GM did pay back the bailouts, it may be that others did too. One reason GM was quick to pay it back: It crimped their style.

By the way, yes, banks did repay TARP funds. Keep in mind also that not all banks wanted TARP funds but were forced by Paulson and Treasury to accept it anyway. Read here,, among other places.

OMG...OK..let me get this straight, the document where the banks agree to take the bailout money is somehow "basically confirms that he put a gun to all their heads.." The first document says that opting out could leave the firms vulnerable, but does provide the option. I'm against the bailouts, but that "evidence" is stupid. No, the money wasn't shoved into the banker's hands at gunpoint.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Groundswell.

Yes...86% of America doesn't count as groundswell. You are correct, sir. The very tectonic plates are shifting.

Percentage seems to shift depending on who is quoting what. I wouldn't mind getting a handle on what the numbers really are, but (1) it might be impossible in a politically charged debate, the numbers quoted always seem to depend on who's ox is getting gored and (2) ultimately it doesn't really matter anyway. Right is still right, even if nobody else is doing it, wrong is still wrong even if everybody else is doing it.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

OMG...OK..let me get this straight, the document where the banks agree to take the bailout money is somehow "basically confirms that he put a gun to all their heads.." The first document says that opting out could leave the firms vulnerable, but does provide the option. I'm against the bailouts, but that "evidence" is stupid. No, the money wasn't shoved into the banker's hands at gunpoint.

I honestly can't tell if you're delusional or just plain old stupid. Really.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Yes...86% of America doesn't count as groundswell. You are correct, sir. The very tectonic plates are shifting.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Right is still right, even if nobody else is doing it, wrong is still wrong even if everybody else is doing it.

And sometimes things are a little more complicated than a bunch of moonbat college students squatting in Zuccotti Park realize.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

(2) ultimately it doesn't really matter anyway. Right is still right, even if nobody else is doing it, wrong is still wrong even if everybody else is doing it.

That's true. The reason I'm quoting them is that he still seems to think that it's about a bunch of liberal/commie/socialist bums that don't want a job. However, once more for the benefit of Fanfaron and SF...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/yup-blue-collar-whites-do-support-occupy-wall-street/2011/10/19/gIQALBC7xL_blog.html

Yup: Blue collar whites do support Occupy Wall Street
By Greg Sargent
It’s become an article of faith among some conservative and even neutral commentators: If Obama and Dems embrace Occupy Wall Street, they risk driving away blue collar white voters in swing states that tend to be culturally alienated by such protests.

But I’ve obtained some new polling that seriously complicates this argument: In two new national polls, the cross tabs show that majorities of blue collar whites do, in fact, back the protests.

(links to the same data I presented..)

By the way, this doesn’t necessarily help Obama. As Alex Altman noted in his excellent write-up of the Time poll’s overall numbers, Obama’s approval rating among these voters is an abysmal 26 percent. But this polling suggests that embracing the protests are not part of the problem — quite the opposite, in fact.

Conservatives predicting that the protests will drive away blue collar whites are trying to exploit a traditional cultural faultline that has been a feature of our politics for decades — the one between working class whites and liberal activists who resort to outsized protest tactics. But if anything, white working class voters may be looking past the theatrics and responding to Occupy Wall Street’s actual message

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

The very tectonic plates are shifting.

Faultlines... Holy shit,I'm psychic. Oh wait. No I'm not. I just pay attention to what's happening in the world, instead of listing to talk radio and reading blogs. But anyway, as I was saying, this goes behind liberal v conservative. Just because one is socially conservative, doesn't mean you don't notice when somebody is stepping on your face.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Yup: Blue collar whites do support Occupy Wall Street
By Greg Sargent
....

Greg Sargent. When he's not playing moonbat, he's playing Democratic Party flack and sycophant. Anyway, you saw the numbers Gallup came up with...

In some circles, I'm white and blue collar. If you've read even fractionally my posts in this thread, you know about where I stand.

I've been an independent contractor/truck driver since November 1987. Before that, I was a factory worker, "Boilermakers/Blacksmiths Local 1247". So, now you know.

I don't see mjsmsprt37 as some kind of dangerous radical. Sso what if there is a strong blue collar support for the Wall Street thingy (which started elsewhere in the world before it overduly went to America). Strikes that that actual group in society have been the worst hit due to the corporates who effectively run the place and get away with it. The blue collars are often the greatest numbers when it comes to being dumped outside the system?

Here's a first look at the official chart of pay data released by the U.S government, that may shed some light on the reason behind the popularity of OWS movement:

click the chart for full story

That's not a pretty economic picture no matter how you dress it up or change the viewing angle.

As far as blue-color workers go, this might well be the year the Democrats get them back on economic issues. They might not be pleased with Obama's economic performance, and few of most groups are, but at least he understands the frustration and the pain.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I don't see mjsmsprt37 as some kind of dangerous radical.

So why don't you call him by his correct nick?

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I don't see mjsmsprt37 as some kind of dangerous radical.

So why don't you call him by his correct nick?

Maybe DANBUZU could introduce him to the secret technique known as copy & paste

Whist! Wishing the howie the means of coherent posting would deprive the rest of us of an amusement equivalent to Benny Hill!

Blue collar, white collar, black, white, gay, straight, republican, democrat. The reason for these lovely designation:



And I suppose a distant reason might be fanboi internet tough/rich/stud guy troll entertainment on forums.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

They might not be pleased with Obama's economic performance, and few of most groups are, but at least he understands the frustration and the pain.

To be quite honest, who cares if Obama "understand the frustration and the pain". Democrats are just a generic brand of sellouts in the market of the corporate government coup. It doesn't make much difference if Republicans are the preferred brand.

All one needs to do is dig past the mainstream media fluff muck to observe the right wing policies of obama and democrats. This, of course, while republicans call him a maoist. Democrats aren't going to do anything except nod along with republicans. By that I mean the democrat party consensus, few exceptions notwithstanding. They all work for the same people, rich donors. The whole two party thing is little more than a pro-wrestling competition for bragging rights. Some droolers even get in on the action vicariously.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

I know that the sun raises at East, what I never expected is on how long does it takes to illuminate the West.... European movements copied by these have already vanished months ago.

No, they don't. That's even more and more persistent (french people talking)

Originally posted by xyzoneon:

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

They might not be pleased with Obama's economic performance, and few of most groups are, but at least he understands the frustration and the pain.

To be quite honest, who cares if Obama "understand the frustration and the pain". Democrats are just a generic brand of sellouts in the market of the corporate government coup. It doesn't make much difference if Republicans are the preferred brand.

All one needs to do is dig past the mainstream media fluff muck to observe the right wing policies of obama and democrats. This, of course, while republicans call him a maoist. Democrats aren't going to do anything except nod along with republicans. By that I mean the democrat party consensus, few exceptions notwithstanding. They all work for the same people, rich donors. The whole two party thing is little more than a pro-wrestling competition for bragging rights. Some droolers even get in on the action vicariously.

Chomskyite gobbledygook. Here's a tough assignment for you: let's hear with a pretty good degree of specificity what changes you would make, what the country would look like if you had your way. Then let's see how freaked out that would make the "normals".

I guess it was inevitable:

Tea Party Nation leader Judson Phillips, who is absolutely cuckoo for cocoa puffs, says that the Occupy Wall Street protests are just a bunch of communists and Nazis. Seriously, I couldn’t make this up. Right Wing Watch has the email he sent out to supporters:

Not only the Communist Party but also the American Nazi Party has endorsed OWS as well.
The media has been falling all over itself to spin OWS as the newest liberal movement, just like the Tea Party. They have done their best to hide videos that show what the Occupy movement really believes.
Both Communists and Nazi’s are socialists. They hate freedom and liberty and both want to see freedom and liberty replaced with tyranny.
OWS claims to be a leaderless movement, yet no one involved with the movement is willing to denounce the Nazis or the Communists. Contrast that to the Tea Party movement, which went overboard to make sure no one involved with the Tea Party movement was a racist or a Nazi.
OWS seems to have no problem with Nazis or the Communists. OWS supports forms of totalitarianism that directly killed about 250 million people in the last century and enslaved billions in poverty and tyranny.
The OWS movement, contrary to the media myth that is being spun, is not just a spontaneous uprising, but rather a well-planned event. It is not simply a group of dissatisfied Americans seeking redress of their grievances. It is a well thought out plan by far left wing groups.
…
The far left knows as well as well as we do that 2012 will be the ultimate battle between freedom and tyranny. Either real Americans win the battle of 2012 and we will save liberty for our nation or they will win and America will slide into socialism.
Good and evil cannot coexist. One must prevail and the other must fail. Freedom and socialism cannot co-exist. Either we totally defeat the far left in 2012 or we lose.

I’m sure they’ll move on to killing Phillips after they’ve done away with Glenn Beck. Actually, I’m sure they won’t. But that won’t stop either of those lunatics from continuing the crazy.

From here.

Hilarious.

One Oakland police officer, who asked to remain anonymous for reasons of police protocol, described the scene in tent city as akin to a scene from "Lord of the Flies." And, indeed, the on-the-fly rule-making can often veer into an oppressive, anarchic mood.
Journalists are routinely shooed away and told off by angry residents. One Oakland police supervisor said that the participants first appeared to him as "freethinking activists" but have since devolved into something more sinister. He said it was "interesting for a group that claims to be against current civilization and rules to set up a far more oppressive society than our own."

Many camp residents, however, have celebrated their growing ability to deal with serious conflict on their own terms, and without the help of police or county medical staff members. They say internal conflict resolution is necessary if the larger aims of the Occupy movement are to mean anything. "If we're going to be concerned about injustices on a large scale, we have to be concerned about injustices on a small scale, too," said Hughes, a slight and bespectacled 30-something who does "freelance security" around the camp. ...

...the experience of self-governing and sanctioning violent, unstable members of their own community proved deeply unsettling to many occupiers.

...several other incidents have pushed well-meaning radicals to the margins. "I didn't realize the strong anarchist contingent or I wouldn't have got involved in the first place," said Russ Tilleman, a 52-year-old retired engineer and Oakland activist who was briefly in charge of media relations before he quit the movement altogether. "Some people at Occupy Oakland are very dedicated activists, and I am hoping they can make some major changes and move forward successfully."

I don't recall those violent racist Teabaggers having such problems.

And hey, Sanguinemoon, you never did address this, unsurprisingly:

Originally posted by Macallan, quoting some blog:

Not only the Communist Party but also the American Nazi Party has endorsed OWS as well.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Well, they have, haven't they? I seem to recall that when David Duke endorsed the Tea Party, that was taken as evidence of the deep inherent racism within that movement.

Come on, Sanguinemoon. Show us some of that "logic" you spread all over that Tea Party thread, OK?

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Hilarious.

Indeed it is hilarious that you dredge up anything and everything. Oh-boy, a single protester is disgruntled, therefore the aims of the OWS are completely invalid.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_19150532
I ran into the brown-helmeted security guard later, smoking a cigarette and taking what looked like a much-needed break. "This is by far the most amazing thing I've ever been involved in," he said, "Think about it. We're feeding the homeless, we're clothing them, we're taking care of them, the city of Oakland isn't doing that. What we're doing here is really wonderful, it's really special." Yeah, clearly feeding and clothing the homeless, giving voice the voiceless, etc is like Lord of Flies

9:00 p.m October 19
Occupy Oakland is a social experiment. But despite the overtly anarchic impulses sometimes on display, and the repeated and constant calls for a dismantling of the country's financial, legal and regulatory systems, people can't seem to completely do away with what humans have always done, which is make rules and try to obey them. There are committees here for virtually everything — food, health, sanitation, camping, security and administrative details, to name just a few.

Even as many of the occupiers call for radical change to the systems already in place, they are creating simulacrums of those very same systems within the camp, albeit on a much smaller scale. When violent or unruly members of this little society get out of line, the security committee steps up to take the lead in dealing with it, the same way law enforcement institutions do it in the world out there.
When sanitation issues arise, and they do, more meetings are scheduled to deal with them, the way they would be dealt with in any city council meeting in any American city. Should dogs be allowed in the camp? Who will pick up the trash? Is it a good idea to make a site for laundry services? What is the appropriate posture regarding the media? All of these questions get debated, some of them intelligently, others with a great deal of paranoia, anger and fear.

Through it all, however, the human urge to make community, to establish rules to live by, to create some semblance of order in a complex and confusing world, is on display.

Oh my, look at the anarchy and violence

So a police supervisor mused that there was something "sinister" brweing de he? I wouldn't attach much importance to that as the climate for those in uniform or authority in the great Republic are a long litany of creating fear about anything that challenges the status quo or the corporate pwer begind the scenes. Getting Americans frightened is why there are damn bases all over the globe. Just as well Mars is out of reach for now.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Hilarious.

Indeed it is hilarious that you dredge up anything and everything. Oh-boy, a single protester is disgruntled, therefore the aims of the OWS are completely invalid.

Maaaan, how the rules change! I can remember a time when you'd pick out one placard in a 'bagger assembly and act as if that represented everyone involved. What gives? Anyway, spin some more. It's entertaining.

It’s a den of thieves!

Occupy Wall Street protesters said yesterday that packs of brazen crooks within their ranks have been robbing their fellow demonstrators blind, making off with pricey cameras, phones and laptops -- and even a hefty bundle of donated cash and food.

“Stealing is our biggest problem at the moment,” said Nan Terrie, 18, a kitchen and legal-team volunteer from Fort Lauderdale.

“I had my Mac stolen -- that was like $5,500. Every night, something else is gone. Last night, our entire [kitchen] budget for the day was stolen, so the first thing I had to do was . . . get the message out to our supporters that we needed food!”

Dude, it's not like there are 100,000 people there. Source. And a $5,500 Mac?

I have a feeling this is dissolving into farce.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

So a police supervisor mused that there was something "sinister" brweing de he? I wouldn't attach much importance to that as the climate for those in uniform or authority in the great Republic are a long litany of creating fear about anything that challenges the status quo or the corporate pwer begind the scenes. Getting Americans frightened is why there are damn bases all over the globe. Just as well Mars is out of reach for now.

Well, there's the control politics of fear, and there's also the military industrial complex making money for some, at the expense of everyone else, of course.

Originally posted by xyzoneon:

Well, there's the control politics of fear, and there's also the military industrial complex making money for some, at the expense of everyone else, of course.

Well, as I suggested above, give us some very specific suggestions as to an alternative way of doing things. We know what you're against; now tell us what you're for.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Originally posted by xyzoneon:

Well, there's the control politics of fear, and there's also the military industrial complex making money for some, at the expense of everyone else, of course.

Well, as I suggested above, give us some very specific suggestions as to an alternative way of doing things. We know what you're against; now tell us what you're for.

How about your list of specific suggestions? Where is it?

Originally posted by Muttsfan:

How about your list of specific suggestions? Where is it?

The onus is on the "revolutionary" OWS cheerleaders, not me. I'm not wearing a Guy Fawkes mask.

Clearly, Fanfaron, you have no coherent arguments against the actual message of the OWS, and yes, your contributions to this thread have long since dissolved into a farce. Seriously, the NY Post, the US equivenant to the Daily Mail, the less factual cousin of Fox News at News Corp. Why not just use the Weekly World News and be done with it?

ps,

Hrmmm....I see Chuck Norris killed Gaddafi!

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Clearly, Fanfaron, you have no coherent arguments

Full stop. Sorry, fanfarrón, I had about 10 lifetimes full of feigning debate with people fully committed to being disingenuous ideologues.

Seriously, the NY Post, the US equivenant to the Daily Mail, the less factual cousin of Fox News at News Corp. Why not just use the Weekly World News and be done with it?

ps,

Hrmmm....I see Chuck Norris killed Gaddafi!

I'd go with The Onion. If I had a device stuck on foxnews and the onion, and was stranded on an island, I'd tune to the onion to get some distant pulse on what's going on in the outside world.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Clearly, Fanfaron, you have no coherent arguments against the actual message of the OWS, and yes, your contributions to this thread have long since dissolved into a farce. Seriously, the NY Post, the US equivenant to the Daily Mail, the less factual cousin of Fox News at News Corp. Why not just use the Weekly World News and be done with it?

Who cares if it's from the NY Post or the NYT? If the story's untrue, point it out. Oh, you mean I should be quoting disinterested nonpartisans like Greg Sargent and Mother Jones and The Nation and blahblahblah. Yeah, I have a coherent argument against the OWS: THE "MOVEMENT" IS F*CKING INCOHERENCE PERSONIFIED. Which is why you have to hem and haw and deflect and avoid addressing the substance of a news story by impugning the source. Can't offer anything specific, I know.

Originally posted by xyzoneon:

Full stop. Sorry, fanfarrón, I had about 10 lifetimes full of feigning debate with people fully committed to being disingenuous ideologues.

Another deflection, rather than giving anything specific. You're not a "disingenuous ideologue", of course. You just spew warmed over Chomsky as a hobby.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Originally posted by Muttsfan:

How about your list of specific suggestions? Where is it?

The onus is on the "revolutionary" OWS cheerleaders, not me. I'm not wearing a Guy Fawkes mask.

So you're asking xyzoneon to give you specifics, but refuse to give ones yourself? Pot, meet Kettle...

Originally posted by Muttsfan:

So you're asking xyzoneon to give you specifics, but refuse to give ones yourself? Pot, meet Kettle...

Yet ANOTHER deflection. Surely you can read. Let me try it again: I'm not the OWS cheerleading revolutionary. I want to hear some specifics from THOSE folks.

Originally posted by xyzoneon:

I'd go with The Onion.

I usually go with the The Onion too, but you gotta admit that Gaddafi article is a win.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

The onus is on the "revolutionary" OWS cheerleaders, not me. I'm not wearing a Guy Fawkes mask.

Well, shit. I missed this post. You were already told this, in this particular thread that Glass=Steagal Act needs to put back into full effect, reinstate regulations against against derivatives. etc. I do apologize for the inconvenience of you feeling the inexplicable urge to post "OMG, this crime happened in a tent city of 100K" while paying zero attention to what's happening in this country - nay in this world.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Yet ANOTHER deflection. Surely you can read. Let me try it again: I'm not the OWS cheerleading revolutionary. I want to hear some specifics from THOSE folks.

So why don't you go ask them then? (even if their suggestions are clear for everyone to see, but maybe you need some help?)
Regardless, we have no way of knowing if xyzoneon is part of the movement. He just made the thread. I don't see him posting about being part of it.
But whatever suits you fancy, stay classy fanfaron.

Originally posted by Muttsfan:

So why don't you go ask them then? (even if their suggestions are clear for everyone to see, but maybe you need some help?)

What suggestions? Yeah, help me out.

Originally posted by Muttsfan:

Regardless, we have no way of knowing if xyzoneon is part of the movement. He just made the thread. I don't see him posting about being part of it.

I think I pretty clearly said "cheerleader" for the "movement". Come on, there are at least 5 or 6 of you in this thread. None of you can offer any sort of specific program beyond bitching about The Man? Let me guess: "We need fairness, and income equality, and universal peace and love".

Originally posted by fanfaron:

What suggestions? Yeah, help me out.

I have some suggestions! The first suggestion is to learn to read. Or if you already can read, get glasses or a stronger prescription for them because you clearly have difficulty reading the words on your monitor.

We say "Bring back the Glass-Steagal Act"
MSM and other detractors : The OWS has no suggestions..
OWS: End Corporate person-hood
MSM and other detractors: Still no suggestions...
OWS: Re-regulate Derivatives
MSM and other detractors: Nope, they have no suggestions...

etcetera...

Just because you don't agree with the suggestions, it doesn't mean they weren't made. If anything, the legitimate complaint is that too many suggestions have been made, making it a little confusing and unfocused. For example, a Native American in the Oakland tent city suggests programs to reduce problems on the Indian Reservations that have nothing to do with Wall Street.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

We say "Bring back the Glass-Steagal Act"
MSM and other detractors : The OWS has no suggestions..
OWS: End Corporate person-hood
MSM and other detractors: Still no suggestions...
OWS: Re-regulate Derivatives
MSM and other detractors: Nope, they have no suggestions...

etcetera...

Didn't the system still suck when those things were operational? How about ending GSEs? And where were these protesters when TARP and the bailouts were going into effect? That was 3 years ago. I can remember at that time the only ones really ranting about TARP and the bailouts were ultra-conservatives; the standard left-of-center line was "What, do you think we should just let things slide into the abyss?" AND I can remember that at various times over the past 3 years the success of TARP and the bailouts was heralded by many of these same people. Incoherent.

Anyway, more hilarity from the scene of the tectonic plates shifting or something:

The drummers claim that the finance working group even levied a percussion tax of sorts, taking up to half of the $150-300 a day that the drum circle was receiving in tips. “Now they have over $500,000 from all sorts of places,” said Engelerdt. “We’re like, what’s going on here? They’re like the banks we’re protesting."

All belongings and money in the park are supposed to be held in common, but property rights reared their capitalistic head when facilitators went to clean up the park, which was looking more like a shantytown than usual after several days of wind and rain. The local community board was due to send in an inspector, so the facilitators and cleaners started moving tarps, bags, and personal belongings into a big pile in order to clean the park.

But some refused to budge. A bearded man began to gather up a tarp and an occupier emerged from beneath, screaming: “You’re going to break my f****ing tent, get that s**t off!” Near the front of the park, two men in hoodies staged a meta-sit-in, fearful that their belongings would be lost or appropriated.

Daniel Zetah, a 35-year-old lead facilitator from Minnesota, mounted a bench. “We need to clear this out. There are a bunch of kids coming to stay here.” One of the hoodied men fought back: “I’m not giving up my space for f***ing kids. They have parents and homes. My parents are dead. This is my space.” ...

“The sunshine protestors will leave,” said “Zonkers,” a 20-year-old cleaner and longtime occupier from Tennessee. (He asked that his name not be used due to a felony marijuana conviction.) “The people who remain are the people who care. You get a lot of crust punks, silly kids, people who want to panhandle ... It disgusts me. These people are here for a block party.”

Another argument broke out next to the pile of appropriated belongings, growing taller by the minute. A man named Sage Roberts desperately rifled through the pile, looking for a sleeping bag. “They’ve taken my stuff,” he muttered. Lauren Digion, the sanitation group leader, broke in: “This isn’t your stuff. You got all this stuff from comfort [the working group]. It belongs to comfort.”

As the communal sleeping bag argument between Lauren Digion and Sage Roberts threatened to get out of hand, a facilitator in a red hat walked by, brow furrowed. “Remember? You’re not allowed to do any more interviews,” he said to Digion. She nodded and went back to work. But when Roberts shouted, “Don’t tell me what to do!” Digion couldn't hold back.

“Someone has to be told what to do," she said. "Someone needs to give orders. There’s no sense of order in this f***ing place.”

Animal Farm indeed.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Didn't the system still suck when those things were operational?

No, they didn't. With those systems in place, this recession would not have been so severe and possibly not have happened at all.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

And where were these protesters when TARP and the bailouts were going into effect? That was 3 years ago.

They weren't called the OWS yet, but there were protests :smiles and pats Fanfaron on the head:

Originally posted by fanfaron:

AND I can remember that at various times over the past 3 years the success of TARP and the bailouts was heralded by many of these same people. Incoherent.

Not Incoherent at all. GM, Chrysler and Ford didn't destroy the economy. The financial instutions did. You're confusing targeting those responsible with incoherence. Right-wing radio and other like to say " Those occupiers have iPhones... " Apple didn't wreck the economy (plus at&t and Verizon give them out like candy during their promos...oh and at&t didn't wreck the economy either.)

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Anyway, more hilarity from the scene of the tectonic plates shifting or something:

Yup, more derision from the MSM. :yawn:

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Didn't the system still suck when those things were operational?

No, they didn't. With those systems in place, this recession would not have been so severe and possibly not have happened at all. Read and learn the economics of this recession instead of being a shill for the Right.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

And where were these protesters when TARP and the bailouts were going into effect? That was 3 years ago.

They weren't called the OWS yet, but there were protests :smiles and pats Fanfaron on the head:

Originally posted by fanfaron:

AND I can remember that at various times over the past 3 years the success of TARP and the bailouts was heralded by many of these same people. Incoherent.

Not Incoherent at all. GM, Chrysler* and Ford didn't destroy the economy. The financial instutions did. You're confusing targeting those responsible with incoherence. Right-wing radio and other like to say " Those occupiers have iPhones... " Apple didn't wreck the economy (plus at&t and Verizon give them out like candy during their promos...oh and at&t didn't wreck the economy either.)

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Anyway, more hilarity from the scene of the tectonic plates shifting or something:

Yup, more derision from the MSM. :yawn: Animal Farm? What makes you even begin to think the OWS is communist? Silly.

*Now Chrysler was being mismanaged by Cerberus Capital Management (now being properly managed by FIAT ) Another great American industry was nearly directly destroyed by Wall St in short-sighted pursuit of profits. Cerberus, the three-headed dog guarding the gates of Hades, indeed.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Not Incoherent at all. GM, Chrysler* and Ford didn't destroy the economy.

Special note: Ford didn't take any of the bailout money. GM paid it back as fast as they could, I've already explained why. Chrysler--- well, there's a company that manages to survive in spite of itself. Somebody always comes in at the last minute to save them from disaster.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Special note: Ford didn't take any of the bailout money.

It's a little controversial if the 5.9 billion Ford recieved constitutes a bailout.

Chrysler's an interesting case because it might seem like somebody comes into save them from disaster, but it was ownership by another that nearly destroyed them in first place. Cerberus wouldn't allow them to spend money on badly needed product upgrades, etc to maximize "shareholder value." This came at a cost of quality and thus sales and marketshare. One of the first things Sergio Marchionne did was order interior upgrades of a little under $200, the difference between going from a Corvette to a Ferrari costing 5-6 times as much. The new reports indicate that's now Chrysler sales that are saving FIAT.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/new-cars/auto-news/chryslers-impressive-bounce-back/article2208244/?from=sec2965

Chrysler, reports a Bloomberg News analyst survey, is set to outpace Fiat’s operating profit by 87 per cent in the second half of 2011. Look for more of the same in 2012.

“Fiat would be very vulnerable now without Chrysler, with few industrial and financial options on its hands,” Emanuele Vizzini, chief investment officer at Investitori Sgr in Milan, told Bloomberg.

Anyway, with real car guys behind them and not Wall Street, they're in position for continued success and providing jobs for American workers. GM did pay back the loans as fast the could, and so did Chrysler. They banks did the same (for the most part), but that doesn't absolve the rest of their behavior nor their culpability in causing this recession(s?) (Technically the 2008 recession ended, even though the average citizen didn't feel the befit of the "recovery" and now we're on verge of slipping into another if it hasn't happened already.)

And no, Fanfaron, praising the success of Chrysler and FIAT is not incoherent with offering criticism for the behavior of financial sector

I wish for the Occupy Wall Street demonstrators a long life and ample publicity, for two reasons. I think they do represent the spirit and intellect of the American left, but also I remember the 1960s.

We had four years of demonstrations like this leading up to 1968, when the Nixon-Wallace vote was 57 percent, the country reacting against the demonstrators and the Republicans went on to win five of the next six presidential elections.

by George Will -- an American newspaper columnist, journalist, author, & Pulitzer Prize-winner best known for his conservative political commentary.


Good insight.

I sincerely hope they (the OWS Mob) work their magic on the American electorate within the next year.

Only then can we truly say they actually served a useful purpose--------to unite a greater majority against them, & their messages--whatever they might be today.

To that anticipated end, godspeed (I don't particularly care if they are Republicans or not, just as long as they ain't democrats) ---------------------------------- Keep on keepin' on OWS, Keep on keepin' on!

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

I wish for the Occupy Wall Street demonstrators a long life and ample publicity, for two reasons. I think they do represent the spirit and intellect of the American left, but also I remember the 1960s.

We had four years of demonstrations like this leading up to 1968, when the Nixon-Wallace vote was 57 percent, the country reacting against the demonstrators and the Republicans went on to win five of the next six presidential elections.

by George Will -- an American newspaper columnist, journalist, author, & Pulitzer Prize-winner best known for his conservative political commentary.


Good insight.

I sincerely hope they (the OWS Mob) work their magic on the American electorate within the next year.

Only then can we truly say they actually served a useful purpose--------to unite a greater majority against them, & their messages--whatever they might be today.

To that anticipated end (don't particularly care if they are Republicans, or lil poka-dotted 3 eyed men, just as long as they ain't democrats) -------------------- Keep on keepin' on OWS, Keep on keepin' on!

And with a single post, Smileyfaze finally admits to being a republican, dropping his hilariously shallow Tea Party guise once and for all.

Originally posted by Muttsfan:

And with a single post, Smileyfaze finally admits to being a republican, dropping his hilariously shallow Tea Party guise once and for all.

A miracle of your own mind...... .....Dream on Mutt, dream on..... ......but the only thing you just about hit dead spot on is that I will probably be voting Republican in 2012....along with millions of highly motivated 'real' voters, some that most likely never voted Republican before, just wait & see.

Meanwhile, let's hear from one of the more focused & rational of OWS's Mob'sters---listen to his brilliant inspirational message of lucidity:






Proudly brought to you by the OWS Mob'ment faction of the American Left, the SEIU, Code Pink, The Tides Foundation, & others similar.

News nobody (here) reads…

The two of you are in appropriate company, Fantasizer's Not So Anonymous.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Good insight.

Of course, it is more than 40 years later He can gain even more insight by looking at the calender and than at the poll numbers It's still amazing to me that now 59% are considered a "mob" (Only 31% disagree)

CC5. From what you know about these demonstrations against Wall Street, would you say you completely agree with the goals of the protestors, mostly agree, mostly DISagree, or completely disagree with their goals?
Based on those who have heard a lot, some, not too much or DK about demonstrations (n=864)
Oct 13-16 2011
12
Completely agree
47
Mostly agree
18
Mostly disagree
13
Completely disagree
10
Don’t know/Refused (VOL.)

You guys are so out of touch with the American people it's unreal.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Meanwhile, let's hear from one of the more focused & rational of OWS's Mob'sters---listen to his brilliant inspirational message of lucidity:

OK, so the Hallhall (a GOP outfit) picked the youngest and most emotional protester to preach to the choir. Color me shocked. If anything, it just shows that you're bullies, picking on kids.

BTW, about your cartoon, since when is protesting bank behavior and calling for reforms of banking regulations coveting your property? Silly.

Look at that, thedawgfan was right after all. A Republican by any other name is still Smileyfaze.

You know, I was thinking about something. Why exactly are those kids crying anyway? What happened? Has the GOP resorted to using kids that are distraught because, maybe, the bank took their homes. There's no way to know because the GOP sees upset children a chance to get a less than lucid "statement" and not as people that need to be talked to and comforted, given direction on where to get assistance, etc. Despicable filth. It only shows how desperate they've been.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Has the GOP resorted to using kids that are distraught because, maybe, the bank took their homes. There's no way to know because the GOP sees upset children a chance to get a less than lucid "statement" and not as people that need to be talked to and comforted, given direction on where to get assistance, etc. Despicable filth. It only shows how desperate they've been.

Conspiracy theories abound!

All while playing more Victim Cards. These Fawksing guys are realy talented!




OWS Self-Imposed Good Neighbor Policy....How's it working?



Are they thinking for the other 97.9%, or are they just the selfish, self-centered, Me, Me, Me 1.1% Mob ignoring the will of the ones they erroneously think they represent?

They only represent themselves, their wants, their desires, & their need to crash the American Economic System which the 'honest' working men & women need to survive, promoting total economic chaos. Then nobody will be working, & then everyone can be just like them, except nobody gets any freebies---thought you saw crying before, watch them when they get just what they want--so they think.

No plan, just total chaos & economic destruction.

Smiley, just a thought here: I think you're showing your hand just a bit too much for your own good. All these attempts to show the OWS people as a bunch of greedy leftists so far only shows your own greed. I have to say it's getting kind of ugly, and it's not the left which is looking so (bless and do not curse) ugly.

Now, it so happens that some of us take a different point of view about all of this. No, it's not "our money". It's not "your money" either. It's not the bank's money, or big business's money, or the government's money. Now I'm going to bring "religion" into this, so sit still for a second and think on this: Everything belongs to God. Everything. We are merely given stewardship over it. Now, I ask you this: When God calls you to account for how you managed His stuff, how do you answer Him?

"I railed against the hungry and homeless and jobless because they're all a bunch of Leftist losers trying to grab money that doesn't belong to them" isn't going to play very well in that day, if I'm not mistaken. Especially given stuff I read that indicates God hates it when employers withhold wages from their workers, and that God desires mercy rather than sacrifice, Taking from the poor to enrich already swollen moneybags won't play well either.

Further, whether you're Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Pastafarian or Atheist, in the end you can't take it with you anyway. How many funerals have you seen in recent history? In those funerals, how many hearses have been towing a U-Haul trailer? Give it a thought.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Smiley, just a thought here: I think you're showing your hand just a bit too much for your own good. All these attempts to show the OWS people as a bunch of greedy leftists so far only shows your own greed. I have to say it's getting kind of ugly, and it's not the left which is looking so (bless and do not curse) ugly.

Yes, I am goddamn greedy, but at least I ain't envious or the possessions of others--whatever they may be.

My greed is for the simple pleasures in life------ As offered me in the US Constitution--life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness.

I'll sink or swim on my own merits, & rather than bitch & moan about somebody else's accomplishments or successes, I will make my own thank you.

If I can't, then so be it, it wasn't meant to be.

If I do, you can't have any as if it's your right to have some---that is unless I decide to offer you a little.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Now, it so happens that some of us take a different point of view about all of this. No, it's not "our money". It's not "your money" either. It's not the bank's money, or big business's money, or the government's money. Now I'm going to bring "religion" into this, so sit still for a second and think on this: Everything belongs to God. Everything. We are merely given stewardship over it. Now, I ask you this: When God calls you to account for how you managed His stuff, how do you answer Him?

A Wonderful thing about America, you have a right to believe in, or not believe in, any religious belief you so choose.
Freedom of Religion belongs to you, & no Government can take that away.
If they try, you have the choice extended you in the Second Amendment.

I don't agree with your point of view expressed above, but I agree you have the rights to them.

Beware though, the atheist union might just be offended by your piety, even though it's none of their goddamn business.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

"I railed against the hungry and homeless and jobless because they're all a bunch of Leftist losers trying to grab money that doesn't belong to them" isn't going to play very well in that day, if I'm not mistaken. Especially given stuff I read that indicates God hates it when employers withhold wages from their workers, and that God desires mercy rather than sacrifice, Taking from the poor to enrich already swollen moneybags won't play well either.

Put your Nanny apron away fella, I'll do my own 'splainin' in my own due time, thank you very much.

I'm the only one that has that responsibility, but thank you for being so concerned for my eternal affairs though. Rest assured I'll fare well.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Further, whether you're Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Pastafarian or Atheist, in the end you can't take it with you anyway. How many funerals have you seen in recent history? In those funerals, how many hearses have been towing a U-Haul trailer? Give it a thought.

Exactly, that's why I intend on spending every last cent I have amassed, difficult as it might be, well before I move on to a better place.

I don't keep any of my liquid assets in any so called bank, so If the economy tanks, & there's a mad run, I'll still have plenty of them South African pieces of yellow metal stashed in strategically secure places worldwide. I'm not the so described 1%, nope, but I'm somewhere in the 25% just below 'em.

Not to worry though, I still believe in currency, I'm just not exposed to a point where it may cramp my style or negatively affect my future.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Conspiracy theories abound!

What conspiracy theory is that? You posted the video and it was clearly marked Townhall and those were kids. And they were crying. Your heart is so hardened by far Right politics that you have absolutely no concept why trying to use upset crying kids to make the OWS look bad is offensive.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Further, whether you're Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Pastafarian or Atheist, in the end you can't take it with you anyway.

The richest man in the graveyard is still wormfood.

Firstly I suggest that mjsmsprt37 sticks his head out the window for some of the Windy City fresh air as I agree with him. (hope he doesn't faint?)

What a rather odd attitude much of the right has in America towards those less fortunate than themselves. The protest movement is essentially representing the millions each year losing homes, losing jobs and health care through no fault of their own. That doesn't seem important as they are all leftist losers? How very uncharitable. Just about anything outside of Hitler is leftist or Socialist. I must say in all honesty that I am glad that the right here is absolutely nothing like the one in America which seems exceedingly greedy. The right here supports health care too so maybe that makes them closet Socialists?! It's too plainly stupi to class everyone with this bogey word that frightens so many over the pond. Nor does religion play any significant part in the political machine unlike the States which often gives the word a bad name.

Is Smileyfaze condemning people because they are not comfortable like him when they are in predicaments they didn't exactly wish for? The vast majority were loyal citizens who have been shabbily treated. To take the matter further it strikes me that we are now perhaps seeing the start of a class war in the USA. For decades it was that old hoaryn one about the 'American Dream'. Everyone was encouraged to try and be rich (although rather obviously that isn't an even distant reality at any time). It was pushed in aevery arena and part of the pysche. Now the bubble has eventually burst and the class war has reached the country.

I have nothing but sympathy for the 7 figure numbers losing homes annually, who are frightened of ill health in the tens of milions the 9% out of work and no signs of abating yet. Is Smileyfaze all these tens of millions are just to be written of as leftist Socialist dummies?? With the massive numbers in mind he seems to overlook he is indicating the country cannot be run right if there are that many Socialist in America?!

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Your heart is so hardened by far Right politics that you have absolutely no concept why trying to use upset crying kids to make the OWS look bad is offensive

Poor, poor lil urchins.

Maybe mommy & daddy needs to increase their weekly allowances!

Awww,,,your offended,,,,GOOD!

I don't do guilt.

So, you obviously have made your own hell on earth....enjoy it while you can!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

The protest movement is essentially representing the millions each year losing homes, losing jobs and health care through no fault of their own.

Yeah,,,who told you that....Santa....the Easter Bunny??!

Might not have been their fault, & I hope they find a way through, but as far as that is a concern of the OWS Mob, you're sadly mistaken old salt, sadly mistaken indeed!

The OWS Mob'sters want their credit card debt forgiven, their student loans forgiven, a share in funds they never earned, a bigger & more intrusive government---a Marxist/Socialist government, & lastly they want death to capitalism, as if the jobs they seemingly lack themselves, will be magically created by a government that has no income because there won't be many willing to work for a living--hardly anyone left to tax.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Exactly, that's why I intend on spending every last cent I have amassed, difficult as it might be, well before I move on to a better place.

I don't keep any of my liquid assets in any so called bank, so If the economy tanks, & there's a mad run, I'll still have plenty of them South African pieces of yellow metal stashed in strategically secure places worldwide. I'm not the so described 1%, nope, but I'm somewhere in the 25% just below 'em.

Not to worry though, I still believe in currency, I'm just not exposed to a point where it may cramp my style or negatively affect my future.

Wow, I hope you take pills for that paranoia of yours.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Yes, I am goddamn greedy

QFT

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Beware though, the atheist union might just be offended by your piety, even though it's none of their goddamn business.

I am offended that you don't have the courtesy to capitalize "Atheist". (Just kidding)

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Not to worry though, I still believe in currency, I'm just not exposed to a point where it may cramp my style or negatively affect my future.

An invester in gold I see. Well done!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Just about anything outside of Hitler is leftist or Socialist.

Actually, I have found that anything to the left of former Senator Joseph McCarthy apparently qualifies you as a leftist or socialist.
It's quite amusing really. On the off-topic forum of a sports forum I frequent (SECTalk.com), I've lost track of the number of times I've been called a damn, dirty socialist for whole-heartedly rejecting Herman "Federal Reserve" Cain's 999 plan, which calls for a major tax hike on the the middle and lower classes while giving a huge tax break to the already-exceedingly wealthy. Throw in the fact that I am against US-nation building projects and that apparently seals the deal for them. As I say, amusing for me, irritating for them Very few on that site are capable of thinking for themselves.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I must say in all honesty that I am glad that the right here is absolutely nothing like the one in America which seems exceedingly greedy.

That's because the Tories are exactly the same as Labour, save the fact that they occasionally take a knife to a budget. (Whatever happened to the EU referendum?)

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Nor does religion play any significant part in the political machine unlike the States which often gives the word a bad name.

Except for the fact that you lot have a national church which you pay taxes to support.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Is Smileyfaze condemning people because they are not comfortable like him when they are in predicaments they didn't exactly wish for?

Allow me to offer my 2 cents: I think SF is very much against the OWS movement for several reasons:
1. They are a movement which has stolen the Teabagger's limelight, which was already fading.
2. They (OWS) have not done a good job in expressing the meaning for the movement. SF already opposes the OWS movement b/c they are, for the most part, the polar opposite of his political beliefs.
3. Did I mention that they are the polar opposite of the TP movement?


Fwiw, I would be all for a massive "Forgive student loans" project in an effort to stimulate the economy. I mean christ, we give the exceedingly-rich tax breaks every 4 years or so it seems.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Except for the fact that you lot have a national church which you pay taxes to support.

Umm, that is not correct:

http://www.cofe.anglican.org/info/funding/

Originally posted by Muttsfan:

<iframe allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen" frameborder="0" height="381" scrolling="no" src="http://embed.myopera.com/video/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dh9oZefVZc0A%26feature%3Dplayer_detailpage&height=375&width=620" width="626" />

I've always known that he probably killed off most of his usable brain cells smokin' the noble weed, but this ices it,,, it's abundantly obvious now that his cheese has completely slid off his cracker!

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Now, it so happens that some of us take a different point of view about all of this. No, it's not "our money". It's not "your money" either. It's not the bank's money, or big business's money, or the government's money. Now I'm going to bring "religion" into this, so sit still for a second and think on this: Everything belongs to God. Everything. We are merely given stewardship over it. Now, I ask you this: When God calls you to account for how you managed His stuff, how do you answer Him?

"I railed against the hungry and homeless and jobless because they're all a bunch of Leftist losers trying to grab money that doesn't belong to them" isn't going to play very well in that day, if I'm not mistaken. Especially given stuff I read that indicates God hates it when employers withhold wages from their workers, and that God desires mercy rather than sacrifice, Taking from the poor to enrich already swollen moneybags won't play well either.

Oh dear, your god is a communist.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Seriously though, the early christian communities and to a degree the amish and mennonites get pretty damn close to it.
What was that thing about the camel and the needle's eye again?
"Everyone deserves what's coming to them and there's not a damn thing you can do about it" sounds more like norse pagan fatalism than christianity though.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Further, whether you're Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Pastafarian or Atheist, in the end you can't take it with you anyway. How many funerals have you seen in recent history? In those funerals, how many hearses have been towing a U-Haul trailer? Give it a thought.

Exactly.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Nor does religion play any significant part in the political machine unlike the States which often gives the word a bad name.

Except for the fact that you lot have a national church which you pay taxes to support.

If it keeps people away from the loony wacko preachers that's money well spent.
Seriously though, many european countries have state churches ( most of the constitutional monarchies IIRC ), others have other ways to support mainstream religion ( in Germany for example the IRS-equivalent collects church taxes on their behalf ( before you freak out, that tax is entirely voluntary, if you want to leave the church you just stop checking that box on your tax form ) ) - none of these countries have anywhere near the amount on fundie nutjobs the US are stuck with.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Allow me to offer my 2 cents: I think SF is very much against the OWS movement for several reasons:
1. They are a movement which has stolen the Teabagger's limelight, which was already fading.
2. They (OWS) have not done a good job in expressing the meaning for the movement. SF already opposes the OWS movement b/c they are, for the most part, the polar opposite of his political beliefs.
3. Did I mention that they are the polar opposite of the TP movement?

1. I hope they steal all the thunder. I would prefer to work from the shadows rather than ATPM being out there always being visible so every Tom, Dick, Mutt, MSM, & Harry can sling buckets of BS at.

Actually, except for my forum(s) exposure, it's actually been pretty quiet out there. We are getting a lot accomplished behind the scenes--under the radar, so much so that while I'm on my 6 month (5 months 20 days for reasons I wish not to explain) vacation down under, I can be rest assured that things are running quite smoothly back there.

Gotta love Teleconferencing!!

2. Meaning of what movement?? They have a meaning? They have a Movement?

Ok....ok.....they have a movement...One out of two is better than absolutely none.

3. Sounds like a..............I'm schizophrenic, & so am I kind or tail chase!

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

I would prefer to work from the shadows

This is you, isn't it:



I suspected as much from a follower of Saruman

Originally posted by Muttsfan:

....Wow, I hope you take pills for that paranoia of yours....

Not paranoia Mutt, just reducing my risk factors to the lowest possible degree. Besides, I never liked using banks, unless I needed to use them...as in business loans, & setting up tax free endowments for my worker's/employee's trusts.

I worked too hard, for too long to allow it just to vanish because some selfish cult comes along & smashes everyone's dream.

Whats mine is mine, unless I decide to share it, otherwise......Charlton Heston kind of had somethin' to say along similar lines way back...now how did that go.."....out of my cold dead hands......"

You get the picture, I hope?

Originally posted by Macallan:

Seriously though, many european countries have state churches ( most of the constitutional monarchies IIRC ), others have other ways to support mainstream religion ( in Germany for example the IRS-equivalent collects church taxes on their behalf ( before you freak out, that tax is entirely voluntary, if you want to leave the church you just stop checking that box on your tax form ) ) - none of these countries have anywhere near the amount on fundie nutjobs the US are stuck with.

The Netherlands and Belgium don't have state churches, nor does Sweden. Denmark does, though. Also I don't think the Church of England is an official state church in Scotland?

PS If you stop paying those German church taxes, the Roman Catholic Church immediately excommunicates you. Of course my view is that it's fantastic that it's so easy to leave, but apparently Andreas Janker doesn't agree.

Originally posted by Macallan:

What was that thing about the camel and the needle's eye again?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2019:23-19:24&version=NIV
I hear that some people say a "needle" in the original Greek is supposed to refer to a very small door and not actually a needle, making it merely very hard.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Seriously though, many european countries have state churches ( most of the constitutional monarchies IIRC ), others have other ways to support mainstream religion ( in Germany for example the IRS-equivalent collects church taxes on their behalf ( before you freak out, that tax is entirely voluntary, if you want to leave the church you just stop checking that box on your tax form ) ) - none of these countries have anywhere near the amount on fundie nutjobs the US are stuck with.

The Netherlands and Belgium don't have state churches, nor does Sweden. Denmark does, though. Also I don't think the Church of England is an official state church in Scotland?

I was pulling the whole thing out of my rear end without doing any research whatsoever, I thought the sheer absurdity would be enough of a giveaway

Originally posted by Frenzie:

PS If you stop paying those German church taxes, the Roman Catholic Church immediately excommunicates you.

As I said, if you want to leave the church you just stop checking that box on your tax form

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Of course my view is that it's fantastic that it's so easy to leave, but apparently Andreas Janker doesn't agree.

It's all about money

Originally posted by Macallan:

I was pulling the whole thing out of my rear end without doing any research whatsoever, I thought the sheer absurdity would be enough of a giveaway

I wish it was that sheerly absurd.

Originally posted by Macallan:

none of these countries have anywhere near the amount on fundie nutjobs the US are stuck with.

We love our fundies, Sirrah!

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

PS If you stop paying those German church taxes, the Roman Catholic Church immediately excommunicates you.

As I said, if you want to leave the church you just stop checking that box on your tax form

Isn't excommunication worse than merely leaving, or is merely leaving not an available option?

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

. Besides, I never liked using banks, unless I needed to use them...as in business loans, & setting up tax free endowments for my worker's/employee's trusts.

It sounds like you have good Instincts about the banks, and yet you're so vehemently against those of us that are protesting their behavior

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Whats mine is mine, unless I decide to share it, otherwise......Charlton Heston kind of had somethin' to say along similar lines way back...now how did that go.."....out of my cold dead hands......"

You get the picture, I hope?

I think all of us get the picture. It's you that doesn't see the big picture. I posted the approval numbers of OWS here ad nauseum. Do you really think all those millions of people just want just want to take your precious money? I've mentioned financial derivatives multiple times, but there are other issues that caused millions of of hard working people to lose their jobs and homes. For example, do you know about "Buy it. Strip it. Rip it?" It's the practice whereby a financial holding company guts a corporation employing thousands of people to sell it in bits, causing thousands of people to lose their job. That was Cerberus and Chrysler. Another term for this is corporate raiding. Of course, there's also the massive outsourcing. Sure, in the fullness of times those workers can find another job, but likely at lower pay and this damages the economy in huge way. Maybe it's time to stop looking for videos of people explaining their grievances in a less than coherent manner and start listening to the vox populi.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

or is merely leaving not an available option?

You can leave, like I did

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

It sounds like you have good Instincts about the banks, and yet you're so vehemently against those of us that are protesting their behavior

As long as banks have depositors, & people walking through the front door wishing to use their services, nothing short of totally destroying them physically & putting their internal activity into a complete shutdown will force the changes you desire. Congress won't hamstring them, nope, & neither would the Administration. Hell they were Obama's largest campaign contributors!

Being that you will never be able to effectuate both those events simultaneously, your Don Quixote efforts are futile, unless you can convince Obama & Congress to pull the rug from under them, which is like collecting a bag full of hens teeth!

Like I said, Wall Street is the wrong venue.....you all should be concentrating on Washington, D.C. where the problem began & is being perpetuated. Wall Street, Chicago, Philly, San Fran, etc...etc...won't settle diddahlee squat! It's D.C. or failure.

10 million zombies in DC sure as hell has an excellent chance in succeeding, but not until OWS clarifies & focuses the message, & eliminates the anti-Americanism & anti-Capitalism rhetoric.

As far as "...so vehemently against those of us that are protesting their <banks> behavior...", if OWS were to state emphatically that all they stand for & all they wish for is to change the behavior of the banks...period, then I would have absolutely no problems with them---hell I'd even join in with them, but you & I both know there is much much more involved in their demands & motives, don't we.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

PS If you stop paying those German church taxes, the Roman Catholic Church immediately excommunicates you.

As I said, if you want to leave the church you just stop checking that box on your tax form

Isn't excommunication worse than merely leaving, or is merely leaving not an available option?

The result is the same, isn't it? I guess the difference would be wether you tell them yourself or if they find out you stopped paying.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

but you & I both know there is much much more involved in their demands & motives, don't we.

Oh, I wouldn't say that. You're the one who seems to be seeing communists hiding under your bed and in the trees and so on.

Any time poor people try to stand up for themselves, Far Right types such as yourself bring up the "Red Bogeyman" and try to generate as much fear and anger against that bogeyman as you can--- instead of trying to fix the problems that give rise to the unrest.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Like I said, Wall Street is the wrong venue.....you all should be concentrating on Washington, D.C. where the problem began & is being perpetuated. Wall Street, Chicago, Philly, San Fran, etc...etc...won't settle diddahlee squat! It's D.C. or failure.

Do you not know the economic history of what's going on? No? OK, once again. DC's culpability in this matter was being too cozy with Wall st and giving the bankers the deregulation that they wanted.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Hell they were Obama's largest campaign contributors!

I don't know if you follow campaign financing, but yes, Goldman-Sachs and friends were among Obama's biggest contributors. Despite this, Obama has already tried to pull the rug from under them with new regulations. Do keep up, pretty please with sugar on top? Maybe that's why the banks are now backing ...Mitt Romney. (As you can see, in 2008 Wall St contributed slightly more the Democrats than to the GOP, but that was an aberration. Historically, they back the GOP.)

Occupy DC, indeed, has started to turn on the lobbyists on K street that influence what happens on Capitol Hill. You might be right, though. Maybe there needs to be protests directly in front the capitol building against this tea-soaked Congress that's sure to get millions in donations from the banks.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

10 million zombies in DC sure as hell has an excellent chance in succeeding, but not until OWS clarifies & focuses the message, & eliminates the anti-Americanism & anti-Capitalism rhetoric.

The OWS' message is as clear as the Tea Party's ever was. You guys were all over the place. You were against the bailouts (a concern shared by the real protest movement), but the TP members were absurd. They went on tangents about Obama being a Kenya/Indonesian Muslim that hates America, to downright racist placecards (including one of your leaders not even knowing how to spell the "n-word.") No, that nonsense might not have been part of the "official" TP message, but anything Anti-American, etc is not part of the "official" OWS message. But once again, you're right. The OWS should learn from TP idiocy and avoid making your mistakes. Once again, I do caution you against calling a movement supported by 79% (growing with every new poll) of the public a bunch of zombies; it won't get any new friends and is likely to cause your approval ratings to sink further into the mire.

Don't want to detract from the battle too much but what is that pasing nonsense from the Southern boy the dagfan about the State paying for national churches in GB? What dashed sillyness. Didn't I poin out in case his brain overtook his eyes that the Church of Scotland has no involvement by the State and is totally independent of it? That the Queen has no powers nor the State and that he rep is not allowed to sit with the Commissioners (ministers and elders) but in a reserved place up in the gallery for visitors at the annual Assembly? As for the Church of England it has a different practicality in the name "Commissioners" who look after it's stocks and shares. The State doesn't pay for the CoE either. Scotland's Kirk is Presbyterian and independent in all ways. We do not have the same problem with religion and politics as there is in America for all the boasts of having no national or similar bodies like us. Our national churches are totally different from the more happy clappy lots active in the Ex-Colonies. We would be horrified of such stuff here.

I still contend that there is a tendency of there to sneer at the Wall Street campaign. I don't think the freaky stuff like face painting or banging things helps but the vast majority it represents are poor not because in Smileyfaze's ludicrous view they are all zombies, Socialists, dumb-asses or whatever non-considerable attitude he has to those less fortunate than his cumfy lifestyle. It shows the deep divisions in society that those who are finacially comfortable see anyone outside of their comfort zone as having those name-tags I mentioned and therefor some simple-minded danger to them. Lack of charity, consideration shows that the corporate mind state is still alive and well over the centuries. That there are now vast armies of the poor who all did this themselves apparently is not so much fujnny but a deep flaw and nasty outlook.

Having watched interviews with people who were middle-class, managerials, ex-soliders fighting for the flag for the land fit for heoes lying on mats in hastily organised shelters is a damn crying shame. It is a blight and that people find it handy to ridicule them and disparage is disgusting. They worked hard, bought their homes, fought the wars and now they are seen by the rightist mentality of being nonentities and wasters. There isn't a suitable expression for that scurrilous attitide.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Any time poor people try to stand up for themselves, Far Right types such as yourself bring up the "Red Bogeyman" and try to generate as much fear and anger against that bogeyman as you can--- instead of trying to fix the problems that give rise to the unrest.

November 07, 2012 the Error will be Corrected.

Obama will make his concession speech, & the new President elect will be making his acceptance speech.

The problem will be nearer to being fixed,& The Error will be Corrected.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

DC's culpability in this matter was being too cozy with Wall st and giving the bankers the deregulation that they wanted.

I agree errors have been made in the past, but this Administration is the only Administration currently occupying the White House, & the only one that has the ability to affect the polices necessary to change this recessions course.

So yes, I agree with your statement, but today's problems, & why there hasn't been a recovery actively under way, is primarily because of the failed economic policies of today's Administration. The past can't correct squat.

I certainly hope you agree that the bailouts, the stimulus, & the TARP monies were a horrible mistake.

Well this Administration is asking for more of the same.

This Administration's jobs bill was never really taken seriously---by either side---it can't pass because the Senate Majority can't muster up enough votes.

The policy is wrong--throwing good money after bad only succeeds in proving again that the original policy was wrong originally--besides putting each American deeper in debt.

Do you honestly think doing more of the same will resolve the problems, & create jobs?

It's already a proven failure.

Protesting the banks will change nothing, except further entrench the status quo.

The banks will never change their policies voluntarily, you must surely know this.

In order to effectively force the banks to change, you must get the Administration, along with the Congress, to correct the mistakes of the past, & design legitimate policy that will.

That is the only viable option.

Focus all your movement's strengths on the capitol down in Washington D.C., because it is only there that policy to change the status quo exists, & because it is there where present day policy is horribly wrong.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

November 07, 2012 the Error will be Corrected.

Obama will make his concession speech, & the new President elect will be making his acceptance speech.

The problem will be nearer to being fixed,& The Error will be Corrected.

Yes, it be. The error to be correct is the election of the TP Congress that's deaf to the anguished cries of the people.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Focus all your movement's strengths on the capitol down in Washington D.C., because it is only there that policy to change the status quo exists, & because it is there where present day policy is horribly wrong.

I say a split. The banks themselves need protest, along with Congress and the President. What this does makes the banks look at their angry customers as well. Yes, we are customers of the banks through Checking and Savings accounts, mortgages, certificates of the deposit, etc Yes, I'm quite sure you can find the proverbial communist bum, but take a couple minutes to scroll back up the photo I provided of Occupy Las Vegas. Notice something? We look a lot of like the Tea Party. We have jobs; we work hard; we are middle class and are customers. I'm not rejecting your advice, just letting know another reason we protest the banks directly and perhaps clearing up a few misconceptions you might have. The banks won't change on their own; it's true with one caveat. They might change if we're all going to take our money out. Don't be too surprised if there's a run on Bank of America in the closing days of December, right before their new debit card polices come into effect.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Don't be too surprised if there's a run on Bank of America in the closing days of December, right before their new debit card polices come into effect.

Well, congratulations, a productive & rational Idea.

One Question, why wait?

Aren't their existing policies the problem you're protesting now not bad enough?

Why not ALL the banks???

Is it because your members will need to have a bank to transfer their accounts into----from one enemy bank to another enemy bank?

Why not use a Credit Union, run by the people rather than the evil banks?

Is your planned protest an already scheduled unified en-mass event, or no particular reason----like December feels better than now?

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Why not use a Credit Union, run by the people rather than the evil banks

That's the plan. I've been investigating credit unions around here. Here's how to find one. As far as a date, there is some talk about Nov 5, but we'll see. Now the end of the December isn't an OWS thing. It was me musing what will happen when the customers get reminded of the fee change. Sorry for the miscommunication.

Oh, here's a list of the banks that were bailed out.

A thought: Earlier today, I heard an editorial on Newsradio 78 in Chicago. The lead-in was about the arrests of OWS types in Grant Park, in Chicago, because the protesters wouldn't leave after curfew had been declared.

The person giving his opinion was of the opinion that some people occupying Wall Street ought to be arrested. The people he had in mind were those already occupying the Street before the first protester put in an appearance.

It's like this: If you're an investor, the chances are real good that, over the last fifteen years you've made nothing, after such things as inflation over that time period is taken into account. If you used a broker and had to pay him the standard percentage, you made less than nothing. So, his idea is to arrest the people running the show-- for theft. They ran it entirely for their profit, and frankly didn't care that they were wiping out everybody else in the process.

So, you actually end up better off if you put your money in your mattress rather than invest on Wall Street. Sure, it makes for lumpy sleeping, but that is a small price to pay in exchange for worrying every time the market goes crazy like it's been doing lately.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

A thought: Earlier today, I heard an editorial on Newsradio 78 in Chicago. The lead-in was about the arrests of OWS types in Grant Park, in Chicago, because the protesters wouldn't leave after curfew had been declared.

The person giving his opinion was of the opinion that some people occupying Wall Street ought to be arrested. The people he had in mind were those already occupying the Street before the first protester put in an appearance.

It's like this: If you're an investor, the chances are real good that, over the last fifteen years you've made nothing, after such things as inflation over that time period is taken into account. If you used a broker and had to pay him the standard percentage, you made less than nothing. So, his idea is to arrest the people running the show-- for theft. They ran it entirely for their profit, and frankly didn't care that they were wiping out everybody else in the process.

So, you actually end up better off if you put your money in your mattress rather than invest on Wall Street. Sure, it makes for lumpy sleeping, but that is a small price to pay in exchange for worrying every time the market goes crazy like it's been doing lately.

This goes beyond investors. If the economy collapses the country, which is very likely to happen within the next few years given the fact that no regulations to prevent the 2008 collapse have been employed, that will affect everyone like it did in 2008, except greater since there won't be any more bailout money.

Although it is very true that the lambs known as the average stock holders don't have any power within the company in the crony system where the government rules have been written in the favor of the gangs in suits that milk the companies for personal benefit, while the rest of the suckers do all the actual work, and/or get used as the loyal, conditioned guard dogs against the greater rabble below them, living off of master's scraps.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

So, you actually end up better off if you put your money in your mattress rather than invest on Wall Street. Sure, it makes for lumpy sleeping, but that is a small price to pay in exchange for worrying every time the market goes crazy like it's been doing lately.

I'm way ahead of you!

Now circling back to the original subject of the thread:

Iraq war vet critically hurt in Oakland protests

(Reuters) - An Iraq war veteran was listed in critical condition on Wednesday from injuries he suffered during clashes between police and protesters in Oakland, triggering calls for renewed Occupy Wall Street demonstrations across the country.

Rally organizers said Scott Olsen, 24, a former U.S. Marine, was struck in the head on Tuesday night by a tear gas canister fired by police during a confrontation with protesters trying to move back into a downtown Oakland plaza that has been the scene of protests against economic inequality.

....

Acting Oakland Police Chief Howard Jordan told a news conference his department was investigating the injury to Olsen as a "level one" incident, the highest level for an internal police inquiry.

He declined to confirm whether Olsen was struck with a projectile fired by law enforcement officers but said Oakland police did fire tear gas and so-called "bean bag" munitions when demonstrators defied orders to disperse.

Tear gas canisters are beanbags?

"The irony is not lost on anyone here that this is someone who survived two tours in Iraq and is now seriously injured by the Oakland police force," said Carpenter, 29.

Keith Shannon, who said he served with Olsen in Iraq, told Reuters his friend suffered a 2-inch skull fracture and brain swelling and had been sedated in the hospital's emergency room trauma center while neurosurgeons decided whether to operate.

More on it here

Helen Isaacson, 80, of Berkeley came out with her husband to show support after hearing of Iraqi war veteran Scott Olsen's critical injury. She held an Occupy Oakland sign emblazoned with a "Grandmothers Against the War" sticker.

"I'm worried about the future of our grandchildren," she said, noting that she visited the encampment a few days ago and was "impressed" with its spirit and organization.

Quan, she said, "made a terrible mistake." Asked about the cyclone fence that now lay in pieces, she said, "I'm happy they took it down."

Her husband, 81-year-old Joel Isaacson, pointed to the yellow circles where tents had stood. "This is what free speech looks like," he said. "That's an area that belongs to the people."

Even more

The protesters were marching peacefully, and then...

TREFNY: So Casey, it sounds like they were marching peacefully, for the most part. But things took a turn.

MINER: Yes, around 7:30, the marchers returned to 14th and Broadway, right in front of Frank Ogawa Plaza. And that’s where an officer started saying through a megaphone that they were going to use tear gas.

TREFNY: And then they did.

MINER: And then they did. They shot the first major rounds off around 7:45. That really changed the tone of the night. One of the protesters, a man named Scott Olson who’s a Marine Corps veteran and member of Veterans for Peace, was struck in the head with either a tear gas canister or a beanbag round. Right now, he's in critical condition at Highland Hospital with skull fractures. He was not the only person wounded by less-lethal rounds: many were struck with beanbags, and one woman was knocked out cold with either tear gas or flash-bang grenades. The confrontations between demonstrators and police continued for several hours.

Note, Oslen's wounds are not consistent with a beanbag.

I guess this is sociology, as taught and practiced…

Being I have be hearing a lot about OWS for the past few weeks on this forum & a few others I subscribe to, but have had a difficult time pinning down what the OWS actually stands for, & what they are actually demanding.

I've come to the conclusion that being the OWS has it's roots in NYC, I would have to think that the OWS in NYC is the legitimate source for information, & anything else claimed as fact is probably just wishful thinking & hearsay from offshoots down the food chain.

So for those not aware of what the OWS Mob is actually demanding, here is basically a reprint of their own message, word for word, commented on by another party with a different point of view I found ( Conservative Libertarian )here.

I'm surprised the list of demands were never placed in this forum, but in the long shot chance that I may have missed it, please accept my deepest apology in advance.

BTW....These comments below are not mine, but are the sole product of the author I linked to --- his, & his alone.

This is the source of the word for word OWS demands list from their own web site.

I am a conservative-libertarian not because of a belief, but because that is where I have found the most critical thought occurs. Philosophies beget ideas which beget actions, and actions have consequences, both seen and unseen. Over the course of many years of studying politics, I have long come to the conclusion that the Leftist philosophies draw the irrational people far more than those on the right. Yes, both sides have their crazies, but there are far more on the Left, and it is why those n the Left are so dangerous: They make laws which strip people of liberty and the fruits of their labor and ignore the effects their policies have.

The subject of today’s lesson is the "Occupy Wall Street" (OWS) crowd. For a primer on the subject from other CDN writers, check out pieces by Deanna Lutz, DJ Redman, Michael J. Fell, and Kira Davis. I am taking a different approach, pointing out their absurdity by usng their own words.


ADVISORY: Reading one of their list of demands could cause an aneurysm, heart attack, liver failure, restless leg syndrome, port wine stains, and colon spasms, but no worries. i will help guide you through this quagmire of irrationality and outright savagery. Grab your beverage of choice and we shall begin…

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Their first demand, and we will see this pattern with the rest, is a clear example of a lack of critical thought. Getting rid of onerous regulations is completely ignored, and they do not seem to be worried that raising the minimum wage to $20/hr would make goods so expensive nobody would be able to afford to buy them. Why stop at $20? Why not go to $30? $40? $50? Why, if everyone was making $50/hr, then nobody would be poor.

We’ll set aside the notion that the minimum wage should not exist as a law and focus on what the minimum wage is. The minimum wage is what is paid to people with no skills and no experience. If you are 30 years old and can only command a minimum wage salary, you have made some bad decisions in your life. Forcing other people to pay for your bad decisions is immoral. I would add that a high school kid stocking shelves after school does not require a "living wage," which is an arbitrary number based on whom you ask.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Paid for by whom? If they actually believe that the healthcare market’s only rule is to "take money away from doctors, nurses, and hospitals," then they have not bothered to read the Obamacare bill which, among other things, instituted an arbitrary $50,000 tax on hospitals.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Since they already defined a living wage as $20/hr, this means people can collect that wage for sitting at home. Again, paid for by whom? No answer.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand four: Free college education.

I suppose we are to shackle educators to desks and force them to teach for free? I thought we fought a war a century and a half ago that settled the question of slavery, but I could be wrong.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

Here we can see they are wanting to take us back to the 18th century. The "fossil fuel economy" has led to the greatest advancements of mankind, the greatest jump in individual liberties, and at the fastest pace seen in history. Not one of the alternative energy sources, save for geothermal, can even begin to match fossil fuels in terms of efficiency, power, or potential…but none of this matters. We apparently need "green jobs," even though that has proven to be a bust.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

This has actually been bothering me for a while, especially since President Obama announced his jobs bill and went around pitching it in front of bridges. Most infrastructure is handled by the states, as it should be since the states know best which projects should be prioritized. I have driven across Missouri and into Illinois twice in the past two weeks (along I-70) and counted a dozen projects being done by both MO and IL departments of transportation. Infrastructure projects are underway…and none of them had any signs up showing the were a part of any federal government grant.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restorati

on planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America’s nuclear power plants.

Now we are at our second trillion dollars without mentioning who is to pay for it all. Never mind asking people to plant a tree. They would rather politician take money from you and then hire someone to plant it, and at a "living wage." That part about nuclear power plants boggles me, given that nuclear power is the most efficient power source available AND has the least environmental impact. Even the Fukishima plant withstood the earthquake and Tsunami; the diesel generator that ran the cooling was what was damaged and caused the meltdown.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

They apparently missed civics class when the 14th and 19th Amendments were discussed, not to mention the Civil Rights Acts of 1866, 1870, 1871, 1875, 1957, 1964, 1968, 1991, etc.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

While there is a libertarian argument to be made for the free flow of labor and capital, no borders means no sovereignty. What is to stop any other country from simply walking in and taking whatever they want?

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand ten: Bring American ele

ctions up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

America set the standard of democratic elections. Giving legitimacy to a set of standards devised and voted as legitimate by nations such as Russia, China, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Zimbabwe is a slap in the face. Never mind that the OWS crowd is suddenly giving legitimacy to the very nations it wants to impose a trade war with in their first demand.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don’t mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Translation: Buy what you want, live beyond your means, then stick it to the people you depend upon to give you access to all of those things.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

While some of the credit reporting regulations are onerous and lack sense, such as a simple credit check causing you to lose points on your rating, such a move would deny lenders the ability to gauge whether someone has a history of paying back their loans. We should all go to NYC and start asking the protesters for money and then promising to pay it back. Then, when they ask how we can be trusted, we can simply cite this demand.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

This one is not clear, though I imagine it has something to do with right-to-work states. They do not bother to mention the enormous problems unions have caused in terms of America’s ability to compete with the rest of the world (i.e. your sweetheart deals are fine when your competitors were bombed to oblivion during WWII, but when they rebuild and the economy globalizes the gravy train must stop or it will derail).

Reading this for the first time?

What do you think?

Demand Fourteen: Not turn peaceful protests into a war zone shooting and American veterans in the fucking skull.



You forgot something from the site.

Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands.

In other words, it's a single user on a forum. I'm sorry that you feel the need to distract from the police brutality by slandering like this.

After the last two posts by SF & Sang, I tried to find out what that movement is about, looking at the "About" section in the OccupyWallStreet. I have to say that there was little answer there. Woodiness upon woolliness in my opinion; nothing concrete.

"We, the people of the United States of America..." --- somehow I doubt it.

It seems that they have a delusion that they are "the people" and that democracy is not defined as the society that results from democratic elections but rather from one which results from sloganeering.

If changes are necessary surely the way forward in a democracy is to influence the existing political parties to bring about change, or form a new party of vote for individuals who share your policies.

Originally posted by string:

If changes are necessary surely the way forward in a democracy is to influence the existing political parties to bring about change, or form a new party of vote for individuals who share your policies.

Shirley, I'm afraid you are serious.

You know who has ended up having the unchallenged influence over the two entrenched parties? $$$$$, and the supreme court's citizens united verdict has made sure those with the most of it now have unprecedented power over government policy. You don't like OWS because, what, a personal agent isn't there to spoon feed you everything that's said and not reported to you by the media that has no interest in the message so you'll call it cute little names like sloganeering?

That's a good one, but tell us the one about how you're going to influence the two entrenched corporate acquisitions some like to call political parties. Are you going to point and laugh, spout cute names and post cartoons about them? Maybe get free bus tickets to where billionaires send you, or you're going to handwrite little notes and webcam yourself with them in your pajamas? What?

Originally posted by xyzoneon:

Originally posted by string:

If changes are necessary surely the way forward in a democracy is to influence the existing political parties to bring about change, or form a new party of vote for individuals who share your policies.

Shirley, I'm afraid you are serious.

You know who has ended up having the unchallenged influence over the two entrenched parties? $$$$$, and the supreme court's citizens united verdict has made sure those with the most of it now have unprecedented power over government policy. You don't like OWS because, what, a personal agent isn't there to spoon feed you everything that's said and not reported to you by the media that has no interest in the message so you'll call it cute little names like sloganeering?

That's a good one, but tell us the one about how you're going to influence the two entrenched corporate acquisitions some like to call political parties. Are you going to point and laugh, spout cute names and post cartoons about them? Maybe get free bus tickets to where billionaires send you, or you're going to handwrite little notes and webcam yourself with them in your pajamas? What?

Shirley - where did that come from!

Conspiracies here there and everywhere eh!

Originally posted by string:

It seems that they have a delusion that they are "the people" and that democracy is not defined as the society that results from democratic elections but rather from one which results from sloganeering.

If changes are necessary surely the way forward in a democracy is to influence the existing political parties to bring about change, or form a new party of vote for individuals who share your policies.

Right....just saying you represent the 99%, repeatedly till you turn blue, does not now, or ever, make it so.

Democratically convincing those that represent us all is the only legitimate way to truly affect policy in the long run.

To get there you must have legitimate grievance, followed with goals to affect the policies that need change, otherwise you are forever cursed to wander aimlessly like a lost band of gypsies.

Just because you say a protest is/was peaceful, does not make it so. It's a matter of prospective, & sometimes either side can be guilty of seeing that prospective differently--with one or the other being correct or incorrect.

Words alone to defend, attack, or deflect, won't clarify the opinion of reality, except to more entrench one's prospective.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Originally posted by string:

It seems that they have a delusion that they are "the people" and that democracy is not defined as the society that results from democratic elections but rather from one which results from sloganeering.

If changes are necessary surely the way forward in a democracy is to influence the existing political parties to bring about change, or form a new party of vote for individuals who share your policies.

Right....

Stop agreeing with me SF - you're frightening me!

Ok, so OWS movement gets its ideas repeated but string can't name one way to influence the corrupt political process, just thinks it sounds nice and the cartoon guy agrees, more or less.

Something like that.

Anyway, back on topic, here's a democrat on the issue of corporate lords running the government and protesters saying something about it, and a spot on prediction I'm willing to bet money on:



Good luck with that.

So how about it, $100 says democrats nod along with republican brand tax holidays for top lobbyists while ignoring jobs along with OWS?

The first TWO (2) videos were made by legitimate News Agencies reporting the facts, & the THIRD video simply asks a question, "Were the Occupy Oakland Protesters Non Violent?" - You watch, & you decide if the protestors were acting non-violently.

Key words "...This is a Revolution..." Non-Violent?

"...take their cameras away & break them" Non-Violent?

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

...Demand Fourteen: Not turn peaceful protests into a war zone shooting and American veterans in the fucking skull....

Violence begets violence.

Those responsible for breaking the law are totally responsible for anything that follows their illegal activity, & their response to legal authorities attempting to resolve the problem exacerbates the situation.

Only so much can be tolerated before an authorized action is the only recourse. The organizers of the OCCUPY MOB knew this all to well as they urged their minions to taunt, & violently provoke the response that followed.

In Oakland, tensions between the city and protesters have been escalating since last week as officials complained about what they described as deteriorating safety, sanitation and health issues at the site of the dismantled camp....

Police have established a presence in a plaza where a pre-dawn raid Tuesday dismantled an encampment of Occupy Wall Street protesters that had dominated the area for more than two weeks.

Authorities removed about 170 demonstrators who had been staying in the area overnight after repeatedly being warned that such a camp was illegal and they faced arrest by remaining. City officials said 97 people were arrested in the morning raid.

The first evening scuffle broke out after several hundred people made their way back to City Hall in an attempt to re-establish a presence in the area of the disbanded camp.

The protesters had gathered at a downtown library, marched toward City Hall and ultimately were met by police officers in riot gear. Several small skirmishes broke out....

Source...Associated Press reporter Marcus Wohlsen.

Violent mobs of marauding youth troublemakers, & other protestors a bit older, needed to be quelled to restore the peace---peace that they broke.

By all legitimate reports, the police responded to violence, & illegal activity, & not to a group of peaceful protestors.

Violence is not acceptable, by either side.

How the police responded will be a matter of discussion for days, but in the end if the police were not given a reason to respond in the first place, all that followed would not have taken place or been necessary at all.....period.

Violence begets violence. The violence perused by some protestors, was met with violence in response by the authorities.

Hum throwing a shoe and and getting rubber bullet shot are equal violence Some random people did some ignorant things like breaking a camera and you call the whole protesters violent?

Originally posted by september17:

Hum throwing a shoe and and getting rubber bullet shot are equal violence Some random people did some ignorant things like breaking a camera and you call the whole protesters violent?

Anthony, do you see this as just not playing fair?

A 9 year old might think that way, but here in the real world...a grownup's world, it don't quite work that way.

This is not a game.

It can become deadly serious, & the union organizers, SEIU, Code Pink, & all who organized are hoping beyond hope that someone will pay the ultimate price.

Why?

Simply, because it will better serve their underlying goals if someone does...publicity, sympathetic media coverage, enlistment of more violent agitators, etc...

Nobody should mistake this for playing.

Playing the victim card once again, as if they were poor, upset, docile urchins full of peace & love for all God's children.

Sorry, this ain't 1968 if you hadn't noticed....That dog won't hunt.

Fairness? Look up the quote about love & war, & what's fair.

Throw a shoe, a bottle, a rock, a urine balloon, a bag of feces, a dead rat, a spear, a grenade......throw any one & you immediately place yourself, & everyone else, in jeopardy of retribution, & it doesn't have to be alike either.

The police don't throw urine balloons, or bags of shit, or rocks, or shoes, etc....& the protestors are acutely aware of this.

On a more serious note:

OAKLAND, Calif. – An Iraq war veteran seriously injured when protesters clashed with police at an "Occupy Oakland" rally had his condition upgraded to fair Thursday, as organizers called for a city-wide general strike.

Scott Thomas Olsen, a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War, was struck in the head with what appeared to be a tear gas canister during Tuesday's clashes between police and about 1000 people who refused to leave an encampment outside City Hall.

Olsen, 24, suffered a skull fracture and was rushed to the hospital with the help of fellow protesters, the San Francisco Chronicle said.

By Thursday morning, his condition had improved and he was now in fair condition, a hospital official told the paper.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Violence begets violence.

Those responsible for breaking the law are totally responsible for anything that follows their illegal activity, & their response to legal authorities attempting to resolve the problem exacerbates the situation.

Oh boy. A protester threw a notebook In the second video at 1:29 they pair the words drug use to a man sleeping peacefully...sheesh. Clearly, somebody has to be on drugs to sleep. If this is all you have to prove that American veterans "deserve" to be shoot in the skull with tear gas canisters, you have nothing. Oh, and a man trying to help Scott was shot with rubber bullets, <insert your favorite dictator> would be proud. This video points out the "peace officer" deliberately aiming at the man trying to come to the aid of Scott. The officer was not in any danger.



Scott's uncle speaks outs.

Apparently Scott had received an text message to come to Oakland to stand between the police and the demonstrators and was very unlikely to caused trouble at all.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

By Thursday morning, his condition had improved and he was now in fair condition, a hospital official told the paper.

That's good. However, he's still in the Intensive Care Unit. Hopefully his condition will continue to improve

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Fairness? Look up the quote about love & war, & what's fair.

Throw a shoe, a bottle, a rock, a urine balloon, a bag of feces, a dead rat, a spear, a grenade......throw any one & you immediately place yourself, & everyone else, in jeopardy of retribution, & it doesn't have to be alike either.

So a person throwing a shoe is justification for lighting up the square like that? Just what is your defect? I can agree to not throw anything, but the police reaction was well out of proportion to what happened.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Do you see this as just not playing fair?

Playing the victim card once again are these poor upset docile urchins?

A 9 year old might think that way, but here in the real world...a grownup's world, it don't quite work that way.

This is not a game.

Nobody should mistake this for playing.

Fairness? Look up the quote about love & war, & what's fair.

Right right in real world you slap me and I can stab you dead. So I ask again if the world we live is fair or not? If not that proves the protesters have a reason to do what they are doing.

And that's why the incident is firing up the movement, instead of weakening it. Now I wonder when Kent State will happen all over again.I suppose that was justified too.

Originally posted by september17:

Right right in real world you slap me and I can stab you dead. So I ask again if the world we live is fair or not? If not that proves the protesters have a reason to do what they are doing.

And the Prince & Princess will live in Camelot happily ever after...

Grow up, this is the real world, & sonny your dreams will be dropped like a dead fly if you slap the wrong gang banger! Try it.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

If this is all you have to prove that American veterans "deserve" to be shoot in the skull with tear gas canisters, you have nothing. Oh, and a man trying to help Scott was shot with rubber bullets, <insert your favorite dictator> would be proud. This video points out the "peace officer" deliberately aiming at the man trying to come to the aid of Scott. The officer was not in any danger.

What goes up, must come down. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time can make you an unfortunate statistic. Not being there, where you don't belong, where the violence is being perpetrated by both sides would be a good way to avoid being hit.

Ever get hit in the face by a line drive?

Got my pitcher 3 weeks in the hospital, Six or seven surgeries later he regained consciousness after being listed critical for 5 days.

Did he deserve that either, no, but he was aware that things can happen, & in his case it did.

Same with Scott, place yourself in the wrong place,,,,,,,,,,,,shit happens.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

And that's why the incident is firing up the movement, instead of weakening it. Now I wonder when Kent State will happen all over again.I suppose that was justified too.

Ask your organizers, & sponsors.....they can give you an answer to that asinine question.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

So a person throwing a shoe is justification for lighting up the square like that? Just what is your defect? I can agree to not throw anything, but the police reaction was well out of proportion to what happened.

Oh it was an isolated incident?

Some beaded, 5'2" flower tossing, stoned, guitar playing, sweetie gently tossed a shoe from the joyfully singing crowd toward the unsuspecting officer just walking by --- an officer who had nothing better to do than being there, & should have been somewhere else. I see, I see...

No, not quite. See my answer regarding people that throw above

I detect -- Another Poor Victim Card

Got more 'coon?

You're becoming repetitively amusing, but annoying.

There are addition interesting questions raised by the the Guardian

1. Did police officers from outside Oakland obey OPD rules on what sort of anti-riot measures could be taken? Numerous units from neighbouring police forces participated in the action against the protesters and OPD has said they were obliged to obey OPD procedures. Did outside forces uses flash-bang grenades which OPD has specifically said it did not use but protesters have reported? If other forces overstepped OPD guidelines, why did they do this?

It's clear that Oakland Police did use flash bang grenades, despite their claims to the contrary. But the question remains, why?

[/quote] 5. Given the serious head injuries to Scott Olsen, what sort of measures were OPD taking to insure the projectiles they fired were not shot directly into the crowd? [/quote] From the look of it, none at all.

8. Video shows at least one explosive projectile thrown by a police officer at protesters as they go to help the clearly injured Olsen who is lying prone on the ground bleeding. Why did police use such force on people as they helped an obviously wounded man? Which officer or officers were involved?

I've already pointed this out. But why in the hell would you shot somebody coming to Olsen's aid? That is not "shit happening."

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Ask your organizers, & sponsors.....they can give you an answer to that asinine question.

Why should I do that? Scott was there to make peace and wasn't doing anything to provoke being shoot. That was on the OPD.

What happened to you during the war was unfortunate. However, you were not peacefully exercising your constitutional rights on American soil. See the difference? Didn't think so.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

You're becoming repetitively amusing, but annoying.

You're being morally reprehensible, you're disdain for the Constitution, if not your outright misanthropy, on full display.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Originally posted by september17:

Right right in real world you slap me and I can stab you dead. So I ask again if the world we live is fair or not? If not that proves the protesters have a reason to do what they are doing.

And the Prince & Princess will live in Camelot happily ever after...

Grow up, this is the real world, & sonny your dreams will be dropped like a dead fly if you slap the wrong gang banger! Try it.

So the real world sucks -> Solution: ignore it and/or accept it without doing anything to change it? (damn where's the change we need) You have a job and you are ok with the current system but many many people are not. The disadvantaged people of the economic and political systems will fight to change. That's how the world operate. I know you sir a supporter of the current system but you like it or not it will change. But hey I'm an outsider what do I know. I'm just gonna stand here and look concerned. The result will be revealed... after the break.

So some odd incident or minor incidents is the okay for the rabif antics of the police? My friend has been living over there for 30 years and whilst over here we had a goodly indepth chat about things and the subject of the police came up. She had a fear of the police espeically those more elaborately uniformed and booted. Often when i am passing them here I will get a smile or "helllo" but she says you have to be careful over there as they tend to be very, very intimidating. Wary is a term she used. I caught a tail-end of a news item about the meetings over the pond and in one I was really quite taken aback at a couple of policemean running into protestors with fists flailing and punching and the fgeet going out. They seem to forget they are there to be disciplined, guarantee rights and represent the best values of law not think they are the damn law. Makes you wonder if the candidates for the police colleges are born with a waving truncheon in their hands?

Quite disgraceful the attitude to ordinary people. Many of them decent, law abiders who have been a given a very raw deal by the country they have loved since birth. People are entitled to protest (even more so the financial corruption and corporate control/greed going on) but the thugs in a uniform seem to think that they are a special breed who can do what they damn well like?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

She had a fear of the police espeically those more elaborately uniformed and booted.

The Las Vegas Metropolitan Police are notorious for the shoot first and ask questions later.

Now in this case it could well be that the it was the police that were poorly organized and the left hand didn't know what the right was doing.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/27/police-tactics-questioned-in-oakland-protest/

As The Bay Citzen explained, while ( interim chief of the Oakland Police Department) Mr. Jordan has stuck by his initial statement that his officers did not fire rubber bullets at protesters, he said that the department “was investigating what munitions were used by the other law enforcement agencies that assisted O.P.D. in its dispersal of Occupy Oakland protesters.” Oakland asked more than a dozen other local police forces to send officers to aid in their attempt to clear protesters from the city’s downtown on Tuesday. More than 500 officers from other jurisdictions were deployed in response to what is known in law enforcement circles as a “mutual aid request.”

OK, maybe we can take him at his word that firing rubber bullets was not the policy of OPD.

However, this man coming to the aid of Olsen has the bullets to prove it:

At least one department used “less-lethal” projectiles other than bean bags. The Alameda County Sheriff’s Department told The Bay Citizen that its officers used foam-like bullets and paint pellets to mark protesters for later arrest.

OK, so that dept claims to have not used rubber bullets. However, marking them for future arrest simply for being there seems a little on the unconstitutional side. He was helping carry Scott to the medic at the time.

Alex Vitale, a sociology professor at Brooklyn College and an expert on police tactics in crowd control, said in a telephone interview that the presence of so many different officers from different jurisdictions likely created confusion.

“My sense is the left hand didn’t know what the right hand was doing,” he said. “I don’t think there was adequate command and control.”

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

You're being morally reprehensible, you're disdain for the Constitution, if not your outright misanthropy, on full display.

Ewwwww.....well your lot has an outright contempt for the law, for the authorities sworn to enforce the law, & the rights & property of the peaceful ordinary hard working citizens--who they claim to represent.

As for misanthropy, not quite. I just despise the OWS Outlaws as I would an irritating hemorrhoid.

It's time to apply the Preparation H, or have it lanced....Which would you prefer 'coon? ( don't get excited now you savage )

Nope, no choice, I choose lancing!


The decent protestors can respectfully protest peacefully all day long, then go home to come back to protest another day.

But to the habitually ignorant sphincters, yes the tools of the Unions & the Ultra-Left Marxists, a pox on them one & all--may the warlords of hell go mid-evil on their collective tails. They chose poison, may they have their just fill.


Lancing for those habitual ignorant sphincter leeches!

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

But to the habitually ignorant sphincters, yes the tools of the Unions & the Ultra-Left Marxists, a pox on them one & all--may the warlords of hell go mid-evil on their collective tails. They chose poison, may they have their just fill

Like seven times decorated Marines, now a software engineer in civilian life? Surely you can do better trolling than this pathetic display.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

But to the habitually ignorant sphincters, yes the tools of the Unions & the Ultra-Left Marxists, a pox on them one & all--may the warlords of hell go mid-evil on their collective tails. They chose poison, may they have their just fill

Like seven times decorated Marines, now a software engineer in civilian life? Surely you can do better trolling than this pathetic display.

Oh, now the worm twists once more.......they are all decorated Marines, you're trying to evoke the readers emotional sense of patriotic protectionism, have them all believe there are some poor patriots being executed in the square or something equally evil.

Try another, in your own words, another "pathetic display".......'cause that lame attempt won't work now, or ever.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

.they are all decorated Marines,

No, and I never said they were. But Scott Oslen is. It doesn't even register with that the Occupiers are not who or what you think think they are because to do so would cause you massive cognitive dissonance. They're not "communist bums" or anarchists but a mix of people from all walks of life.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

..... It doesn't even register with that the Occupiers are not who or what you think think they are because to do so would cause you massive cognitive dissonance. They're not "communist bums" or anarchists but a mix of people from all walks of life.

As I have said before, most recently here, but you didn't want to see that, because having someone, something, somewhere to hate seems essential in keeping your OWS Mob mentality focused.

As long as they are violent like a gang of marauding male chimps on wild mushrooms, like in Oakland, you'll get no sympathies from me or mainstream America. Maraud in rural America like your mob did in Oakland, the police will be the least of your worries. You'll be begging for their protection. Best hope they have short memories.

Protest peacefully, honor the lawful requests of the authorities--move on when you're told to move on, & respect the properties of the general public--the hard working American citizens, the majority of America, properties which up until today you seem to collectively feel is your own personal toilet, then & only then will I revisit my sympathies to the OWS Movement.

Prove that The OWS Movement has a positive, respectful nature & message, rather than those violent displays we see daily in every media. Then & only then will OWS earn not only my respect, but the respect of mainstream America, who are getting a bit sick & tired of OWS's Mobs marauding.

Ignore what I've said here if you wish, but they, the American People, don't buy OWS's Victim routine, nor are they stupid enough to swallow OWS's lame excuses.

Just because some may hate the Banks, or some May despise Wall Street, of a lot of others might detest Corporate greed, don't think for one second that the majority of mainstream America will tie in with your lot by any means!

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

As long as they are violent like a gang of marauding male chimps on wild mushrooms, like in Oakland, you'll get no sympathies from me or mainstream America.

That's just it. He's was provoking no one and we do have the support of the mainstream America and have had it almost since the beginning.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Prove that The OWS Movement has a positive, respectful nature & message, rather than those violent displays we see daily in every media

?What violent displays are those? A woman throwing a shoe? The OWS has been respecting private property and has a much right to the parks and city squares as the tp movement.We were careful to not block the casinos and hotels and other private business vital to the economy.

Here's that might tell you something, though I doubt it.

Civil disobedience is easy to embrace from a distance. Few Americans condemned the thousands who gathered peacefully in violation of the law across the Arab world this spring. But when it starts happening on your doorstep, clogging up your streets or bringing drum circles to your place of work, it’s another matter altogether. And so mayors and police departments across the U.S. now face a dilemma. What do they do about the encampments—symbolic Hoovervilles of a kind—that have sprung up in city squares across the country, in violation of local ordinances?

First, they should learn the lessons of Oakland mayor Jean Quan. [/url]

(a brief rundown on what happened to Oslen)

The effect has been devastating for the local mayor, who was already facing a nascent recall effort. In the age of social media, such incidents have enormous viral potential. Nearly a day after the event, Quan, who has gone through several police chiefs in recent months, issued a statement of near complete contrition. “We have decided to have a minimal police presence at the plaza for the short term and build a community effort to improve communications and dialogue with the demonstrators,” she wrote. “I want to express our deepest concern for all of those who were injured last night, and we are committed to ensuring this does not happen again. Investigations of certain incidents are underway and I will personally monitor them. We understand and recognize the impact this event has had on the community and acknowledge what has happened. We cannot change the past, but we are committed to doing better. Most of us are part of the 99%, and understand the spirit of the Occupy Wall Street Movement. We are committed to honoring their free speech right.”

The violent response on Tuesday night, however, is likely to be long remembered in the Bay Area, where support for the protests, already substantial, has noticeably grown since the encounter. The rally on Wednesday night in the same square, according to the San Francisco Chronicle, numbered as many as 3,000. A general strike has been called in Oakland for Nov. 2. This sort of response has happened before, of course. Early in the Occupy Wall Street protests, a video circulated showing two young, female protesters, peacefully contained within a police barricade, being sprayed with pepper spray. The New York police officer responsible for the incident has since been transferred to another post.

The lesson of both incidents is clear. While other municipalities have succeeded in clearing protesters from their streets with few incidents, any violent response to protesters will spread quickly through the media and online. Thursday morning, on MSNBC’s Daily Rundown, Chuck Todd asked White House adviser Stephanie Cutter for President Obama’s reaction to the violence in Oakland. She dodged, saying she had not spoken with the President. But that will not be the last question asked.

Read more: http://swampland.time.com/2011/10/27/violence-gone-viral-and-the-lessons-of-occupy-oakland/#ixzz1c2dKvRRL

Originally posted by september17:

...The disadvantaged people of the economic and political systems will fight to change....

Yes, but hopefully they will fight & work hard so someday they can have what they want because they earned it, rather than fight & destroy so they can take what somebody else worked hard to have or make, something they just stole or took because they believed they had a some insane right to it.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

As long as they are violent like a gang of marauding male chimps on wild mushrooms, like in Oakland, you'll get no sympathies from me or mainstream America.

That's just it. He's was provoking no one and we do have the support of the mainstream America and have had it almost since the beginning.

Keep toking on that noble weed.

It's not about one man's unfortunate injuries, what he did or didn't do to deserve it or not, it's the wild rampaging, fighting, throwing urine, shit, rocks, boards, spitting, cursing, & total disdain for all authority.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Prove that The OWS Movement has a positive, respectful nature & message, rather than those violent displays we see daily in every media

?What violent displays are those? A woman throwing a shoe? The OWS has been respecting private property and has a much right to the parks and city squares as the tp movement.We were careful to not block the casinos and hotels and other private business vital to the economy.

You obviously don't have access to most major media outlets from all around the world. Stuff MSM don't want you to see apparently.

I do, & have seen my fill. Seeing, 'coon, is believing.

So keep your eyes shut, & ears covered tight now, Hear no evil, See no evil.







If all opinions are equal, how come a liberal who disagrees with a conservative is open-minded, but a conservative who disagrees with a liberal is a bigot?

Considering that the protest does have a broader base than Smileyfaze wants to admit all the more reason for the police to act as if they are in place for democracy and rights. From outside it looks as if the police are too ready and keen to batter heads in or rubber bullet for any wee thing they see as a challenge to their "right". Indeed much of your police sems a bit too arrogant and ready to sort you oiut kind of thing. Upholding the law is a handy phrase when they really mean that they should rule?

You can occupy wall street, from 9-5....

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

That's just it. He's was provoking no one and we do have the support of the mainstream America and have had it almost since the beginning.

Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!!!

No, you don't really have the "support of mainstream America" if you go by issues. You have the support of about that 10%-15% or so that can be classified as "moonbat fringe". Oh, and come off it with the "the media hates us" garbage. OWS has had far more positive press than the Tea Party. If all those allegedly violent 'baggers actually had done what OWS already has done, you'd be having an aneurysm. Blatant hypocrisy on your part.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

can take what somebody else worked hard to have or make

you sure about that? And they protest at W st. not looting a bank.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Yes, but hopefully they will fight & work hard so someday

That's that they did after French Revolution.

Originally posted by september17:

That's that they did after French Revolution.

who? US?

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Keep toking on that noble weed.

It's not about one man's unfortunate injuries,

But it is at this point. The fact the the police specially targeted people coming to his aid makes it more so.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

So keep your eyes shut, & ears covered tight now, Hear no evil, See no evil.

That's you. Like I said, you suffer cognitive dissonance at this time that makes impossible to you to comprehend that this happens in America. You talk about the MSM. In case you haven't noticed has not been our friend. Did you not see, just for example CNN's Erin Burnett call the OWS a bunch of lunatics. Clearly you missed when the Wall Street Journal went on CNN and called the OWS a bunch of anarchists as the CNN anchor laughed with him. Thee movement was not spread by the MSM; it spread via social networks and true alternative media despite the MSM.

Originally posted by Virusboy:

You can occupy wall street, from 9-5....

Yup. Clearly social unrest is meant to keep bankers' hours.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Indeed much of your police sems a bit too arrogant and ready to sort you oiut kind of thing. Upholding the law is a handy phrase when they really mean that they should rule?

There are times when I feel you're too eager to criticize America, even falling to the pot calling the kettle black syndrome, but in this case you're right. Now part of the investigation is to determine exactly which police did it. Saemus (a man deliberately targeted as he tried to help carry way Scott Olsen) says it was the Oakland police that shot him, but it's hard to tell which police belonged to which city in the confusion. If it was Oakland police that did it, it's coming out that their actions were in violation of the regulations; in other words; it was the police breaking the law.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Yes, but hopefully they will fight & work hard so someday they can have what they want because they earned it,

Yes, putting all that money into derivatives and other dodgy financial schemes that helped bring down the economy is working ever so hard. That's the first fallacy of your statement, that bankers were actually working hard, or at all. The second is, once again, nobody is trying to take your money for the 9999999th time.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Yes, but hopefully they will fight & work hard so someday they can have what they want because they earned it,

Yes, putting all that money into derivatives and other dodgy financial schemes that helped bring down the economy is working ever so hard. That's the first fallacy of your statement, that bankers were actually working hard, or at all. The second is, once again, nobody is trying to take your money for the 9999999th time.

Get yer head out yer sphincter fella, or if you insist on keeping it there at least use yer navel as a porthole!

Here is Sept's post I responded to below:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Originally posted by september17:

...The disadvantaged people of the economic and political systems will fight to change....

Yes, but hopefully they will fight & work hard so someday they can have what they want because they earned it.....

Where the Guy Fawks did you read that I was I talkin' about bankers??? WHERE, 'coon, where????

NOWHERE, that's where.

If you actually read what I posted you would have noticed that I was talkin' about the disadvantaged people that september17 was referring to...period.

You made that other crap up in that lil procyonid mind of yours, then lied through yer pointed lil teeth about what you just didn't read or imagined you did.

Drop the crack pipe 'coon, & get some real oxygen into those crack burnt lungs ......

Read for a change instead of pourin' out yer typical mindless/worthless/irrelevant balderdash & drivel just because it suits the OWS to divert from the truth rather than exposing their real agendas & goals!

Why have no OWS supporters addressed these following issues specifically? Come on, Sanguinemoon. Demonstrate clearly why the conservative-libertarian objector to these demands is full of it.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

So for those not aware of what the OWS Mob is actually demanding, here is basically a reprint of their own message, word for word, commented on by another party with a different point of view I found ( Conservative Libertarian )here.

I'm surprised the list of demands were never placed in this forum, but in the long shot chance that I may have missed it, please accept my deepest apology in advance.

BTW....These comments below are not mine, but are the sole product of the author I linked to --- his, & his alone.

This is the source of the word for word OWS demands list from their own web site.

I am a conservative-libertarian not because of a belief, but because that is where I have found the most critical thought occurs. Philosophies beget ideas which beget actions, and actions have consequences, both seen and unseen. Over the course of many years of studying politics, I have long come to the conclusion that the Leftist philosophies draw the irrational people far more than those on the right. Yes, both sides have their crazies, but there are far more on the Left, and it is why those n the Left are so dangerous: They make laws which strip people of liberty and the fruits of their labor and ignore the effects their policies have.

The subject of today’s lesson is the "Occupy Wall Street" (OWS) crowd. For a primer on the subject from other CDN writers, check out pieces by Deanna Lutz, DJ Redman, Michael J. Fell, and Kira Davis. I am taking a different approach, pointing out their absurdity by usng their own words.


ADVISORY: Reading one of their list of demands could cause an aneurysm, heart attack, liver failure, restless leg syndrome, port wine stains, and colon spasms, but no worries. i will help guide you through this quagmire of irrationality and outright savagery. Grab your beverage of choice and we shall begin…

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Their first demand, and we will see this pattern with the rest, is a clear example of a lack of critical thought. Getting rid of onerous regulations is completely ignored, and they do not seem to be worried that raising the minimum wage to $20/hr would make goods so expensive nobody would be able to afford to buy them. Why stop at $20? Why not go to $30? $40? $50? Why, if everyone was making $50/hr, then nobody would be poor.

We’ll set aside the notion that the minimum wage should not exist as a law and focus on what the minimum wage is. The minimum wage is what is paid to people with no skills and no experience. If you are 30 years old and can only command a minimum wage salary, you have made some bad decisions in your life. Forcing other people to pay for your bad decisions is immoral. I would add that a high school kid stocking shelves after school does not require a "living wage," which is an arbitrary number based on whom you ask.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Paid for by whom? If they actually believe that the healthcare market’s only rule is to "take money away from doctors, nurses, and hospitals," then they have not bothered to read the Obamacare bill which, among other things, instituted an arbitrary $50,000 tax on hospitals.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Since they already defined a living wage as $20/hr, this means people can collect that wage for sitting at home. Again, paid for by whom? No answer.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand four: Free college education.

I suppose we are to shackle educators to desks and force them to teach for free? I thought we fought a war a century and a half ago that settled the question of slavery, but I could be wrong.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

Here we can see they are wanting to take us back to the 18th century. The "fossil fuel economy" has led to the greatest advancements of mankind, the greatest jump in individual liberties, and at the fastest pace seen in history. Not one of the alternative energy sources, save for geothermal, can even begin to match fossil fuels in terms of efficiency, power, or potential…but none of this matters. We apparently need "green jobs," even though that has proven to be a bust.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

This has actually been bothering me for a while, especially since President Obama announced his jobs bill and went around pitching it in front of bridges. Most infrastructure is handled by the states, as it should be since the states know best which projects should be prioritized. I have driven across Missouri and into Illinois twice in the past two weeks (along I-70) and counted a dozen projects being done by both MO and IL departments of transportation. Infrastructure projects are underway…and none of them had any signs up showing the were a part of any federal government grant.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restorati

on planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America’s nuclear power plants.

Now we are at our second trillion dollars without mentioning who is to pay for it all. Never mind asking people to plant a tree. They would rather politician take money from you and then hire someone to plant it, and at a "living wage." That part about nuclear power plants boggles me, given that nuclear power is the most efficient power source available AND has the least environmental impact. Even the Fukishima plant withstood the earthquake and Tsunami; the diesel generator that ran the cooling was what was damaged and caused the meltdown.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

They apparently missed civics class when the 14th and 19th Amendments were discussed, not to mention the Civil Rights Acts of 1866, 1870, 1871, 1875, 1957, 1964, 1968, 1991, etc.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

While there is a libertarian argument to be made for the free flow of labor and capital, no borders means no sovereignty. What is to stop any other country from simply walking in and taking whatever they want?

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand ten: Bring American ele

ctions up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

America set the standard of democratic elections. Giving legitimacy to a set of standards devised and voted as legitimate by nations such as Russia, China, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Zimbabwe is a slap in the face. Never mind that the OWS crowd is suddenly giving legitimacy to the very nations it wants to impose a trade war with in their first demand.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don’t mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Translation: Buy what you want, live beyond your means, then stick it to the people you depend upon to give you access to all of those things.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

While some of the credit reporting regulations are onerous and lack sense, such as a simple credit check causing you to lose points on your rating, such a move would deny lenders the ability to gauge whether someone has a history of paying back their loans. We should all go to NYC and start asking the protesters for money and then promising to pay it back. Then, when they ask how we can be trusted, we can simply cite this demand.

Originally posted by OWS:

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

This one is not clear, though I imagine it has something to do with right-to-work states. They do not bother to mention the enormous problems unions have caused in terms of America’s ability to compete with the rest of the world (i.e. your sweetheart deals are fine when your competitors were bombed to oblivion during WWII, but when they rebuild and the economy globalizes the gravy train must stop or it will derail).

Reading this for the first time?

What do you think?

Satire at, of all places, Daily Kos. Must be a conservative mole there. Still, I notice that not one person in the comments refutes the substance.

The Teabagger violence has gotten out of control. We've called them "political terrorists" for some time now, but I think it's time to just refer to them as "terrorists". After all, some of their leaders are being investigated for terrorism. They claim an area for themselves (typical Teabagger greed), refuse to pay for a permit, threaten to kill reporters, block traffic, attack the police, and conspire to kill police. Does the first amendment nullify all other laws? WTF? Rightfully, the NYPD plans to sue the Teabaggers as a whole for their injuries from now on.

Violence, violence, violence, violence, violence and I could go on but you get the point. There are over 100 such unique (unrelated, I'm sure) incidents involving upwards of 1000 arrests. We are being terrorized by the Teabaggers.

And of course, Teabagger violence isn't limited to their opponents- they turn on each other. Such people can't help themselves, it's their nature. We all know the Teabagger's natural inclination to violence toward women. We've been seeing a disturbing trend of rape lately- here, here and here for starters. The Teabaggers have issued a cult-like decree that their rape victims should remain silent about their abuse. The truly disgusting thing is that this violence is so pervasive rapes can go on WITHIN THE GROUP OF TENTS WITH NOBODY TRYING TO STOP IT. That is who the teabaggers are. If you're a man and you don't hate the Teabaggers right now, then you're not much of a man at all. Real men don't tolerate violence toward women. Real men don't tolerate Teabaggers.

Another one of the unfortunate side-effects of Teabagger violence is the drain on our precious public resources, namely the police protecting the women from Teabaggers who aren't demonstrating. All told, the human cost of teabagger violence is incalculable. ...

It is my belief that the reason the Teabaggers are so unsanitary, covered in feces, vomit, and urine is because they are naturally anti-science. They deny that human waste and garbage poses health threats. They don't accept modern waste management. Many of them were taught from the Christian Bible that people were created by god, and so their turds are actually divine.

And really, this just makes the case for better public education. We need to invest more in the teachers who can correct the backwards Teabagger hygiene and give these kids a shot at a healthy life. You can't just poo anywhere in this country. It's not healthy and it's not fair to others. We have places to poo. These children need to learn where or we have no chance as a nation.

Ouch. Click the link quick; the piece may be down the memory hole really soon.

I have to say that it is a bit of that old 'we are the greatest' mentality to claim that the US set the standard for elections. It is flawed and I still sympathise with the protest everywhere. It was more needed in America I reckon.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Where the Guy Fawks did you read that I was I talkin' about bankers??? WHERE, 'coon, where????

NOWHERE, that's where.

Oh my God, you've lost it and you have no concept of how far into the left field you've wandered and got hopelessly lost. The OWS movement is first and foremost a protest against the greed and corruption of the financial sector. Sept..17 was talking about disadvantaged people, but not all those who participate in the movement are disadvantaged; some are simply fed up with the failures of the corrupt status quo. Now you started your usual irrelevant rants about trying to take money from people that earned it and I simply pointed out that the people that are being protested against (which are the bankers..do keep up...) did not necessarily earn their money. Also while you're trying to keep up, also calm down before you have a stroke

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Why have no OWS supporters addressed these following issues specifically? Come on, Sanguinemoon. Demonstrate clearly why the conservative-libertarian objector to these demands is full of it.

Because those "demands" are simply the rantings of single user on forum. In the thread that that follows, OWS supporters, as well as detractors have taken issue with the "demands." Do us a favor, in the future have some concept of what you're addressing. Further, I myself, said that I was not in favor of those "demands" in there unworkable, ill-advised entirety. Like I say to SF, do try to keep up.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

....The OWS movement is first and foremost a protest against the greed and corruption of the financial sector. Sept..17 was talking about disadvantaged people,.......

Well, it's about time you actually read something.

Why did it take multiple re-reads in order for you the eventually comprehend....never mind, I really don't care--it's your disability.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

......but not all those who participate in the movement are disadvantaged.....

Tell me your kidding! What a revelation, I would never have guessed!

Most were mollycoddled surely, but disadvantaged, you're correct, most are not.

BTW....It was the subject (the disadvantaged) that September17 & I were discussing, before you went on your errant hissy-fit, & blew the bejisis all out of context!

You'll mature laddy, you'll eventually mature.


...I'd like to hear your answer to Fanfaron's question(s) too, very interested yes---we all are.

What do you 'really' have to say about his legitimate & extremely relevant question(s)??

You surely can do better than you did. Yes, surely....

Cat got yer tongue? Having brain cramps?

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Because those "demands" are simply the rantings of single user on forum. In the thread that that follows, OWS supporters, as well as detractors have taken issue with the "demands."

Wait a second. NOW you're changing the rules again and you're NOT judging an entire "movement" based on the "rantings" of an individual? Why the change?

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Do us a favor, in the future have some concept of what you're addressing. Further, I myself, said that I was not in favor of those "demands" in there unworkable, ill-advised entirety. Like I say to SF, do try to keep up.

Oh, I try, but it's hard to keep up when the rules are always changing and there's no coherent message other than mumbling "power to the people, death to the pigs" sort of rot. "Unworkable, ill-advised". Of COURSE none of this has been "published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly".

Bunch of stupid Monty Python shit. They were incoherent as well, but at least the Tea Party had the decency to say what they had to say and go home and change into clean underwear.
(edit)

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

The OWS movement is first and foremost a protest against the greed and corruption of the financial sector.

So where were they in 2009? And where is the protest against government greed and corruption? And why do they target people like the Koch Brothers and Rupert Murdoch -- who are not even fixtures in the "financial sector" -- while giving people like George Soros, John Corzine and Michael Bloomberg a pass?

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Yes, but hopefully they will fight & work hard so someday they can have what they want because they earned it, rather than fight & destroy so they can take what somebody else worked hard to have or make, something they just stole or took because they believed they had a some insane right to it.

Let me clarify it even more for you. It's basically you going back to the ridiculous "point" that the protesters are after other people's money, when in fact, it's the corruption mentioned above that they're protesting against. There. Have I slowed it down enough for you, yet?

Once again :sigh: this a financial sector recession. I know this repetitive, but you seem to have difficulty processing the information; so just think of it as the Times Tables drills in elementary school. The banks and other financial institutions have lobbied and bribed government officials (including Congress members of both parties) for massive and sweeping deregulation. When the bankers achieved that legislative aim, they immediately began offering dodgy financial products, such as derivatives. In 2008, the whole house of cards came crashing down and the economy went spiraling downwards. Still with me? As a result, many formerly middle-class people lost their jobs and their homes and thus became disadvantaged.

The massive bailouts pushed for by President Bush (Obama wasn't president yet, so he didn't do. Do you understand?) were initially voted down by the Democratic members of Congress. After massive lobbying effort, the Bush bailouts were finally approved. The bailed out banks continued to tighten credit and evict people from their homes, increase mortgage payments, instituted new fees, etc. As a result, unrest grew. The TP was born, but it simply became a tool of the GOP and it became clear that a real protest movement was required. Thus the OWS came into being, consisting of many of these newly disadvantaged people, average citizens and other people disgusted with the status-quo. You see, it's about reforming the system so this doesn't happen again, not " tak(ing) what somebody else worked hard to have or make."

More on the newly disadvantaged.

From the US census.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/p60-239.pdf

Page 6, shows a decline in income across all regions of the US.


Table 5, Page 16 shows how relatively large the increase in poverty was as percentage of population