Occupy Wall Street protests not valid?

Is it ok for police to pepper spray peaceful protesters and then walk away?



Oh, and the media hardly covers the protests themselves, much less this so there's only youtube.

Originally posted by jo15d:

it is truly amazing that someone from the banking industry, which has just had the biggest subsidy in history, has the nerve to call CU's unfair competition!

It's more like "meh", just another day in the USA.

Anyway, regardless of any bank transfer days or anything, these government coup leaders will continue to go to the "casino with a taxpayer bankroll" called over the counter derivatives and credit default swaps, all the way to the next, and likely final economic collapse. If nobody challenges these practices, the fallacy that they're not catastrophic will continue. And the only way to even begin to challenge anything is to get secret big money out of politics.

Originally posted by xyzoneon:

It's more like "meh", just another day in the USA.

Anyway, regardless of any bank transfer days or anything, these government coup leaders will continue to go to the "casino with a taxpayer bankroll" called over the counter derivatives and credit default swaps, all the way to the next, and likely final economic collapse. If nobody challenges these practices, the fallacy that they're not catastrophic will continue. And the only way to even begin to challenge anything is to get secret big money out of politics.

And yet to 90-97% of Americans think this new..

Originally posted by Virusboy:

Originally posted by xyzoneon:

It's more like "meh", just another day in the USA.

Anyway, regardless of any bank transfer days or anything, these government coup leaders will continue to go to the "casino with a taxpayer bankroll" called over the counter derivatives and credit default swaps, all the way to the next, and likely final economic collapse. If nobody challenges these practices, the fallacy that they're not catastrophic will continue. And the only way to even begin to challenge anything is to get secret big money out of politics.

And yet to 90-97% of Americans think this new..

As long as they now wake up from the American Dream, something might get done.

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by Muttsfan:

no comment:

Is it just me or does he look a bit like Augusto Pinochet?

Well, that just proves the point about perception. To me he looked like Commissioner Gordon.
Btw, here's the story:
"The Philadelphia Daily News
NEW YORK — In full uniform and with his head held high, a retired Philadelphia police captain was arrested in New York yesterday while participating in an Occupy Wall Street demonstration.
Ray Lewis — who left the Philadelphia department in 2004 after serving as captain of the 25th Police District, headquartered at Front and Westmoreland streets — reportedly was among more than 170 protesters who were arrested."

Arresting protesters, isn't that what Iran did last year?

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Here in the USA 80% + of all mortgages are the fixed rate type, where a borrower of say $100,000 today who gets a rate of 7.00% over 30 years would pay $665.00 a month each & every month for 360 months....never increasing, nor decreasing for any reason whatsoever. Except for -- see below***

Oh yes they can. The bank just jacked up ours, again without missed payments. It was some nonsense about the insurance. Another case of the financial industry finding ways to gouge the consumers.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Yep. Bingo again. And I toooooold ya so.

But this guy is no doubt a tool of corporations and one of the 1% and should be ignored.

No, the establishment media kept repeating the lies that there was one underlying purpose, despite the fact that it had been spelled out multiple times.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

I don't believe in the trash being spewed by the OWS who want to do anything, except work hard, for what they want handed to them as if they might have a right to what somebody else earned. Income redistribution is the equivalent of thievery.

Dude, I work my ass for what I have. We have that in common. The income redistribution is thievery, so stop bloody supporting it. The wealth and income redistribution has not been going the way the GOP pundits whine about...

There is somewhat of macro-economic point is raising the wages of the working and middle class, though. This is a consumer based economy, therefore you'll be putting more money back in the hands of more consumers, thereby encouraging economic growth. Clearly there are are couple caveats: it would need to be done a pace that will not cause too much inflation and the other is not pricing American labor right out the the global market place and thus causing unemployment (you can only have so many call center reps and people working in shops, etc )

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

I'm neither for the banks or the consumers.

My bad. I thought you believed in anything at all.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

That's called personal responsibility.

If a man or corporation is an island. On a personal level, if I poorly choose a stock and it goes under, yes it's usually my fault. Why would not be? Because if the major financial institutions, "benefiting" from the deregulation" make a series of poor investments (such as credit swap derivatives) that ultimately cause the entire economy to falter (or the economy falters for some other reason), hitherto sound investments turn sour and, of course, this can domino through the entire economy. This is part of why we had not one, but four full blown economic depressions in the 19th century. Following the Great Depression, regulatory safe guards were put into place to prevent it from happening again. They were working well until the deregulatory fervor beginning with Reagan administration. Finally Glass-Steagall act we repealed and this economy is what happens.

Anyway, it's not as simple of "personal responsibility" unless one happens happens to be dumbass that pounces on those "penny stock" spams without understanding why the stock is worth a penny to start with. (Ever get those? Arrrgh)

I was checking on gold myself. Apparently, it's 50% overpriced, or about 25% underpriced How helpful He does say

Disclosure: I am short GLD.

, though.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Anyway, it's not as simple of "personal responsibility" unless one happens happens to be dumbass that pounces on those "penny stock" spams without understanding why the stock is worth a penny to start with. (Ever get those? Arrrgh)

I seem to remember Microsoft was one of those, back then…

Changing the rules mid-game, government insisting that S&Ls divest… Ah, what's the point in asking you to understand?

Is there anything short of commissars running the American economy that you'd think reasonable? (Maybe Krugman, and his Mrs.? Worked out well for Enron, eh? )

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Here in the USA 80% + of all mortgages are the fixed rate type, where a borrower of say $100,000 today who gets a rate of 7.00% over 30 years would pay $665.00 a month each & every month for 360 months....never increasing, nor decreasing for any reason whatsoever. Except for -- see below***

Oh yes they can. The bank just jacked up ours, again without missed payments. It was some nonsense about the insurance. Another case of the financial industry finding ways to gouge the consumers

Oh, you silly.

The mortgage lender is duty bound by law to inform you that taking out private mortgage insurance (PMI) is an option you can exercise.

You obviously simply ignored that, they 'forgot' to inform you, or you chose their 'cheaper' insurance plan & forgot to read the fine print. Don't worry, you probably aren't alone, but if you did your homework you should have known.

The above example I made was based purely upon Principal & Interest repayment ONLY...not insurance, which you don't finance (or pay interest on).

In the end, an uneducated decision has an uncanny habit of coming back to bite ya in the ass!

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

In the end, an uneducated decision has an uncanny habit of coming back to bite ya in the ass!

And the bite area hurts. Now I know, I guess Maybe it can be fixed by refinancing? Here's noree info on that issue, including the disclosures that you were talking about.

I admit, this type of stuff is complicated for example I have trouble exactly understanding this:

What If Your Home Value Has Increased?

When making mortgage payments, most of the payments during the first few years are finance charges. Therefore, it can take 10 to 15 years to pay down a loan to reach 80 percent of the loan value. If the home prices in your area are rising quickly, your property value may increase so that you can reach the 80 percent mark a lot faster. Your property value could also increase due to home improvements that you make to your home.

If you think your home value has increased, you may be able to cancel PMI on your mortgage. Although the new law does not require a mortgage servicer to consider the current property value, you should contact them to see if they are willing to do so. Also, be sure to ask what documentation may be required to demonstrate the higher property value.

Why? The loan amount is the same.

Oh well. I wonder if hottubs count as a home improvement. (Was about to get a six seater for the price of a four seater, because it was last year's model as if anybody cares what "model year" a spa is as long everything works properly, which it does You should see it. It's almost the size of some those crap-tastic above the ground swimming pools they sell at WalMart and Target) Oh well. Fairly knowledge about Macroecnomics and shopping, but need more work personal finance, got screwed on the car loan too - but that one I think I can sue the bitches because it wasn't what we talked about. I'm not crying, just recognizing something I need to work on. But I'll do better when I trade it in for Range Rover in few years, hopefully.

Maybe one day, I'll get a house on Mount Charleston . There's a village on the mountain near the 7,000 mark. It's a bitch to get up there in the winter, though; hence the wanting needing the Range Rover.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Don't worry, you probably aren't alone, but if you did your homework you should have known.

Which is what I told customers when I worked for JP Morgan Chase...

PMI insurance should stay fixed, because the amount insured for stays the same. You only need to insure for the amount of the original loan, any increase in home value should be covered by your homeowners insurance (most have an automatic increase rider you can activate if you wish--but the cost rises too ) , which is a totally different instrument/product, & serves a totally different purpose.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Maybe it can be fixed by refinancing?

Whatever you do ------ do not refinance!!!!

Banks love it when you refinance after the first 2-5 years of the mortgage.

You ask why?

Because over 90+% of what you have already paid is ALL interest, & virtually no principal. You'd be amazes that after paying off your $100,000 mortgage for 5 years on a 30 year fixed term @ $700.00 a month you still owe $95,000...you made $42,000 in payments, but only about $5,000 of it went to paying off the principal while the other $37,000 you paid all went into the banks pockets as interest.

The $37,000 in interest you paid would be blown to high heaven if you refinance because you'd have to pay it all over again just for the privilege of refinancing.

Oh, I didn't mention new loan origination fees & the like. You get to pay them all over again too!

BTW....you'd be 5 years older by then too with 30 years still to go!

The bank would love if you started back at scratch again!!!!!

Do your own amortization here, & verify what I just said as true.....

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Whatever you do ------ do not refinance!!!!

You're probably right. It seems fixed rate mortgage rates are increasing anyway.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Oh, I didn't mention new loan origination fees & the like. You get to pay them all over again too!

Yeah, they can kiss my ring-tailed ass on that one It's like...."Hrmm..I'll be paying for thirty years, get lots of interest charges and you want to charge fees on top of that...Just cancel Christmas on that one, buddy!"

Just a word on home ownership, since we're talking about that again. Increasing home ownership rates has been a multi-president policy in America. Both parties. You had Bush and Clinton, at least, in on it (without me bothering to check George HW Bush and Reagan, Carter ((the CRA was passed in his administration, though )) ) OK, a bunch of people getting mortgages that couldn't afford them without a doubt had something to with the crises. It's almost foolish to say otherwise. However, putting this whole mess on the CRA seems very simplistic and ignores banks' and other brokerage houses behavior outside this. For example, Lehman Brothers cooked its books; it's a verifiable non-partisan fact that's not up for dispute and their were plenty of dodgy financial products born of short-sighted greed that had nothing do with and those collapsed (those are what needed to stay illegal.) It was a perfect storm of multiple factors.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Originally posted by jo15d:

Irish banks, bailed out by the taxpayer, and of course allowed to keep their bonuses, are taking an unflinchingly hard line with people who are behind with mortgage payments. So, those people have organised and demanded the banks negotiate with them, or there'll be a mortgage strike. Way to go!

I understand & agree with the principal, but wouldn't the strike---once ended---just have the arrears interest portion merely added to the tail end of the interest portion of the mortgage thus making say $3,000 of interest in arrears blow out to many thousands more than $3,000 over the remaining term of the mortgage due to compounding?

Unlike here in the USA, I believe there in the UK almost all mortgages are of the variable rate type, no?

Mortgage rates in Ireland and the UK are mainly variable, and it was the refusal of the banks to pass on the reduction in rates by the European Central Bank to mortgagees (Ireland is a member of the European Single Currency, so it's central bank no longer sets interest rates) that was the final straw.
A mortgage strike in Ireland has not started, it's a threat if the banks won't negotiate. So far they haven't, and as a quarter of a million have signed up to the strike threat a showdown looks likely. I can't say how that would end, but with so many taking part, the banks would have a problem.
It's worth recalling the background to this. Irish bankers impoverished their country, causing fast rising unemployment, and savage wage cuts in both private and public sectors, while enriching themselves in the process, and their banks pocketing billions in public cash in the bail out. Yet those same bankers show no responsibility for their actions, and Irish politicians, like others elsewhere, refuse to make them. That isn't capitalism, it's socialism reserved exclusively for bankers, paid for by ordinary people. Now some are fighting back, they've no choice as their elected representatives have betrayed them, and I wish them well

This is what happened today. You can see the UC Davis students sitting there and the cop just fucking walks down the line spraying people. At :40 you can see the police randomly arresting people. The "peace officer" downing the spraying was Lt. John Pike

This is an interesting article on the incident. The title is "Why I Feel Bad for the Pepper-Spraying Policeman, Lt. John Pike" and at first I was like :Are you kidding."

James Fallows summed up the situation with his usual precise moral compass. "This is what happens when authority is unaccountable and has lost any sense of human connection to a subject population," he wrote. "That's what I think here."

There's unaccountability everywhere within the establishment, from the banks, to the government itself (including the cops)

Structures, in the sociological sense, constrain human agency. And for that reason, I see John Pike as a casualty of the system, too. Our police forces have enshrined a paradigm of protest policing that turns local cops into paramilitary forces. Let's not pretend that Pike is an independent bad actor. Too many incidents around the country attest to the widespread deployment of these tactics. If we vilify Pike, we let the institutions off way too easy.

The same with the financial institutions. When we go after specific people, we ignore systemic corruption and horrendous flaws within the given institutions.

The article goes on with changes in police response through the decades and offers this table:

While it's easiest to note the incidents of police violence, the protesters' cameras also record what's *not* in the images. Authorities have long claimed that they were merely battling the "black bloc" of violent anarchists. But when you look at all these videos, the bogeyman isn't there.

In this case, the black bloc was non-existent. There were cases were there was a black bloc. There were a number of black bloc operatives on the night Occupy Oakland took the port and if somebody truly committing arson, force could have been justified.

Again, in this case:

Instead, it's a dozen scared kids and a police officer named John Pike spraying them in the face from three feet away. And while it's his finger pulling the trigger, the police system is what put him in the position to be standing in front of those students.

As one poster on Youtube noted, if the protesters really have been violent, they could have physically overwhelmed the cops. Unlike the author, I do feel Pike needs to be dismissed and barred from the "law enforcement" profession even though police tactics do need to be investigated and corrected.

More information. According to UC Davos police chief Annette Spicuzza the protest originally involved only 50 students, but swelled to over 200 after the police arrived. What part of showing up in riot gear against protesters just sitting on the sidewalk makes the situation worse is so hard to understand? Riot gear is for, I dunno, riots.

Here's a cop (or maybe a model for the company that makes the equipment) in riot gear.


Don't they stop to consider that showing this overequipped like a stormtrooper is going to have a psychological affect. I'm sure they must, but it's not the one they were planning on. Our man above looks like he's about to kill somebody or at least brain them.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

<iframe allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen" frameborder="0" height="381" scrolling="no" src="http://embed.myopera.com/video/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DWmJmmnMkuEM&height=375&width=620" width="626" />


This is what happened today. You can see the UC Davis students sitting there and the cop just fucking walks down the line spraying people. At :40 you can see the police randomly arresting people. The "peace officer" downing the spraying was Lt. John Pike

This is an interesting article on the incident. The title is "Why I Feel Bad for the Pepper-Spraying Policeman, Lt. John Pike" and at first I was like :Are you kidding."

James Fallows summed up the situation with his usual precise moral compass. "This is what happens when authority is unaccountable and has lost any sense of human connection to a subject population," he wrote. "That's what I think here."

There's unaccountability everywhere within the establishment, from the banks, to the government itself (including the cops)

Structures, in the sociological sense, constrain human agency. And for that reason, I see John Pike as a casualty of the system, too. Our police forces have enshrined a paradigm of protest policing that turns local cops into paramilitary forces. Let's not pretend that Pike is an independent bad actor. Too many incidents around the country attest to the widespread deployment of these tactics. If we vilify Pike, we let the institutions off way too easy.

The same with the financial institutions. When we go after specific people, we ignore systemic corruption and horrendous flaws within the given institutions.

The article goes on with changes in police response through the decades and offers this table:

While it's easiest to note the incidents of police violence, the protesters' cameras also record what's *not* in the images. Authorities have long claimed that they were merely battling the "black bloc" of violent anarchists. But when you look at all these videos, the bogeyman isn't there.

In this case, the black bloc was non-existent. There were cases were there was a black bloc. There were a number of black bloc operatives on the night Occupy Oakland took the port and if somebody truly committing arson, force could have been justified.

Again, in this case:

Instead, it's a dozen scared kids and a police officer named John Pike spraying them in the face from three feet away. And while it's his finger pulling the trigger, the police system is what put him in the position to be standing in front of those students.

As one poster on Youtube noted, if the protesters really have been violent, they could have physically overwhelmed the cops. Unlike the author, I do feel Pike needs to be dismissed and barred from the "law enforcement" profession even though police tactics do need to be investigated and corrected.

Exactly. Couldn't agree more. Protesters keeping busy by skirmishing with low level grunts is exactly what the banksters want. There is absolutely no point in doing it unless you are prepared to win an all out war, or if you're an instigator enemy of the movement. Period.

I think that there is something very fundamentally flawed about the police service over there. It has a conceited notice of it's own importance and place in society. The brutality of a police service in a country proclaiming high standards of democracy, freedom of expression and so on are being seen all over the globe. Only adds to the hypocrisy of so-called freedom traditions. Many will now be realising over there the double standards and suss out why the country is getting a PR problem around the world. I wouldn't want to ask a cop the time!

There indeed is something fundamentally flawed about the police situation, Mr Howie.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Only adds to the hypocrisy of so-called freedom traditions.

America is a republic with strong democratic traditions. Those traditions are deeply undermined when police use pepper spray and other violence against peaceful protests when the police are not under threat. University Chancellor Katehi says that the people were meant to take down protesters tents, but not disperse the rally, because campus rules prohibit "camping." I wonder if she even met with protesters to attempt to establish time frames, agreed upon by both parties, when protests could take place. It seems like she simply cited the no "camping" rule and called the campus police, who showed up in their black shirts and proceeded to pepper spray people straight down the line. Perhaps that type of communication could have ensured First Amendment rights while keeping public safety.

Here's the police excuse:

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/11/20/4067841/ucd-peppered-by-net-outrage.html

There was no way out of that circle," Spicuzza said Friday. "They were cutting the officers off from their support. It's a very volatile situation."

And yet anyone watching the video can see that the police were not surrounded and were able to leave and that the protesters were not behaving aggressively in the first place.

Originally posted by xyzoneon:

Protesters keeping busy by skirmishing with low level grunts is exactly what the banksters want

Police skirmishes look ugly to nice, suburban people that would otherwise agree with protesters and thus are a tool control public opinion. Where it all goes wrong are instances like this where it's beyond any shadow of doubt that the police were in the wrong.

The police, even campus police in this case, have turned into a paramilitary force that can be used against the citizens. Beyond the Occupy movement, it's very frightening.

Originally posted by xyzoneon:

Exactly. Couldn't agree more. Protesters keeping busy by skirmishing with low level grunts is exactly what the banksters want. There is absolutely no point in doing it unless you are prepared to win an all out war, or if you're an instigator enemy of the movement. Period.

then where are the instigators behinds OWS?

Sanguinemoon there is a three step table, its the basis of which way to go ruling, but America seemed to make all three as a stepping stone thing.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I wouldn't want to ask a cop the time!

Carry a pocket watch you ole codger....in the end people all over the world are willing to die to get into the USA, because even though she isn't perfect by a long-shot, she has more of what they want than anywhere else, & because they are willing to work for it & go through the process, she might just give them a chance to have it---if they pass muster.

Feels good to still be wanted for the right reasons.

The UK is fast becoming the new Mecca, or sewer--which ever is most appropriate PC wise--of the Western World because they--the leaches--have found that the authorities in the UK are pushovers, & the government is so progressive that they spend so much time each & every day patting themselves on the back on how nice they can be to people that hate all that they stand for, rather than keeping the sloths out.

If you're an American Citizen, our cops, though not perfect by a long-shot, are appreciated, respected, & trusted by the overwhelming majority.

There's nothing worse for a bad cop here in the good ole U.S. of A., than to be convicted of a crime, & then put in jail alongside the scum they put away. They seem to get invited to all the sleepovers before they have uncanny accidents, the clumsy bastards they be. Eventually, they will get what they deserve.....in this life or the next.

So, if you refuse to buy a watch you cheap Scot....then stay home, & listen up for big Benny (if the terrorists haven't blown it to shyte yet).

That way you won't need to deal with our Officers.

Two of the officers involved in the incident have been placed on administrative leave, source . However, officials refused to identify which. Hopefully one was Lt. John Pike, who casually walked up to peaceful demonstrators and sprayed them in the face.

On Saturday, the UC Davis faculty association called for Katehi's resignation, saying in a letter there had been a "gross failure of leadership." Katehi has resisted calls for her to quit.

She needs to step down. Neither the students nor the faculty want her there anymore.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

She needs to step down. Neither the students nor the faculty want her there anymore.

the only time she will truly step down is when she is publicly humiliated

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Two of the officers involved in the incident have been placed on administrative leave, source . However, officials refused to identify which. Hopefully one was Lt. John Pike, who casually walked up to peaceful demonstrators and sprayed them in the face.

On Saturday, the UC Davis faculty association called for Katehi's resignation, saying in a letter there had been a "gross failure of leadership." Katehi has resisted calls for her to quit.

She needs to step down. Neither the students nor the faculty want her there anymore.

I only skimmed but correct me if I'm wrong.

This was the Campus police force, making Lt. Pike a Campus Cop---not a 'real' cop,
& Katehi is a Chancellor of the University?

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

I only skimmed but correct me if I'm wrong. This was the Campus police force, making Pike a Campus Cop, & Katehi is the Chancellor of the University

Yes.

Now Pike wasn't some scared Renta-Cop, but a veteran of both the military and police. He was in the Marines from 1991-1995, the Sacramento Police Department from 1995 to 2001 and has since worked for UC Davis Police Department. With such an impressive resume, he should have known how to better handle the situation.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

There indeed is something fundamentally flawed about the police situation, Mr Howie.

Of course, they're american cops
If exactly the same thing happened in Britain he'd defend the cop tooth & nail & whatever else he can find.
( sorry, couldn't resist )

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

The police, even campus police in this case, have turned into a paramilitary force that can be used against the citizens. Beyond the Occupy movement, it's very frightening.

Huh, the university I went to employed a few people to watch the parking lots and that's as close as it gets to 'campus police'

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

I only skimmed but correct me if I'm wrong. This was the Campus police force, making Pike a Campus Cop, & Katehi is the Chancellor of the University

Yes.

Now Pike wasn't some scared Renta-Cop, but a veteran of both the military and police. He was in the Marines from 1991-1995, the Sacramento Police Department from 1995 to 2001 and has since worked for UC Davis Police Department. With such an impressive resume, he should have known how to better handle the situation.

Ok,,,I stipulate to your impressions of who & what might be.

To me he was probably just a "Cop Wannabe" who couldn't cut the mustard in the real police force, who probably had an axe to grind with one of, or all those, in the group he was given the charge to keep in order.

My initial shock is that he was a "real cop", & how dare he put all the police force in such disrepute!

I was misled, probably like may others who believed he might have been a real cop....Instead he was just a "Campus Cop"---they ALL were!

Wrong he was -- he should be taken down, but I feel better now knowing all he was was a just a wacko wannabe with enforcement power over mindless, impressionable children who just so happen to go to the University he works for.

He wasn't a REAL COP.

He was only a CAMPUS COP, only one step up from a janitor, who probably didn't have to pass any mental capacity, or psychological tests real cops have to throughout their careers.

Actually, when I watched those Campus Cops back off, they looked like the cops I saw in the UK Riots.....jelly for spines, gutless wonders.

Yep,,,,,Only Campus Cops!

You would be right, if he wasn't in the Marines and was a "real" cop for years and did pass those tests for the both the Marines and Sacramento PD. The Marines are one branch of the services that turns away most applicants and a large number of recruits lack the psychological and physical capacity to complete training.



I looked for jobs in the UC Davis police force to get specific requirements. The closest I got was a security guard for the library that has the low requirements that you're thinking of. Anyway, like I said, with his resume he doesn "jelly for spines, " or is one of those "gutless wonders."

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

You would be right, if he wasn't in the Marines and was a "real" cop for years and did pass those tests for the both the Marines and Sacramento PD. The Marines are one branch of the services that turns away most applicants and a large number of recruits lack the psychological and physical capacity to complete training.

I looked for jobs in the UC Davis police force to get specific requirements. The closest I got was a security guard for the library that has the low requirements that you're thinking of. Anyway, like I said, with his resume he doesn "jelly for spines, " or is one of those "gutless wonders."

So you say, but do you know for sure?

Why did he leave the real cops?

Did you have access to his military files, or any of his police records?

Do you know for sure that he wasn't passed on through the Marines regardless of 'emotional problems', like a lot of them come out with?

Was he gay, & had to leave because he was ashamed, or was afraid of gettin' his ass disciplined?

What do you really know about Lt. Pike, except what you want us all to believe, so to fit your own OWSI agenda?

Come on 'Coon, where's the Beef!?

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Those traditions are deeply undermined when police use pepper spray

oh, nonsense:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Come on 'Coon, where's the Beef!?

I just gave you a 2/3 pound Six Dollar Burger from Carl's Jr. (Hardee's back east) He was in the Marines from 1991-1995, having served the enlistment terms. From 1995-2001, he was in Sacramento PD. This doesn't fit the profile of somebody that couldn't cut as a Marine or a "real" cop.

It was surprising to me too that these were campus police. I don't remember any riot gear for our campus cops. This actually makes the situation scarier even you think about, even campus cops are coming in with prepared for war against people just sitting there now. Our renta-cops would have just stood there until the regular police arrived.

Funny about your cartoon. I didn't see a single "Blame Jews" sign, picture of Che Guevara or anarchist symbol....

Originally posted by Muttsfan:

oh, nonsense:

Well crap. It happened longer ago than I realized.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

security guard for the library

officially on papers, in the mind of Katehi, and himself, he was the FBI

This is an example of the OCCUPY WALL STREET MOVEMENT

OCCUPY WALL STREET INFESTATION

Hitting on poor little defenseless children as they make their way to school.

How low will they go?

The OWSI protestors were chanting "FOLLOW THOSE KIDS, FOLLOW THOSE KIDS".

For those kids, going to school was frighting normally, but all these big people screaming at them, trying to kick them, following them....They were petrified!

I guess that's what OWSI wanted, to terrorize little children!

Cowards one & all!

Those that yelled & kicked at those little children, & those that condone their existence!

Those Shameless Cowards............

They should of used FDS Feminine Hygiene Spray, or Mouth Wash!!!!

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Hitting on poor little defenseless children as they make their way to school.

How low will they go?

I don't know about this particular alleged incident, but don't worry, the OWS supporters here will no doubt come up with a rationalization or two regardless of whatever goes on at Occupy events. Uh, they weren't really members of OWS, ya know, or you can't judge the worth of the thing based on a few bad apples, blahblahblah. And this is after they had to make up incidents of violence occurring at Tea Party events. This is the sort of utter dishonesty and hypocrisy that really turned me off of the Democratic party and its adherents back during the 2008 election cycle. I'm not a member of either "movement", TP or OWS. But I would like to see some consistency and basic honesty from those critiquing both. The moonbatty OWS shills in this thread have yet to address the hypocrisy issue. They have no defense other than strawmen and red herrings.

The whole "OWS is violent hippies" is sticking about as well as "we are the 43% webcammers in pajamas".

Originally posted by xyzoneon:

The whole "OWS is violent hippies" is sticking about as well as "we are the 43% webcammers in pajamas".

Something's sticking pretty well, considering the plummeting support for OWS. And that's with what was fairly positive press coverage starting out. You're not the "99%". You're more like the 10%, and it was bound to become apparent sooner or later.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

And that's with what was fairly positive press coverage starting out.

Friend, you must be some form of deranged to go on the way you do. Repetition and redundunce (sp?). There is no point in repeating for time one million that there is no "press", such as you imply that it's still valid free press merely because you say so. No, you're not missing the statements of the media being an establishment tool, you're just being a deranged buffoon obnoxiously venting the same trash ad nauseum.

Mainstream media is state news. Can you even acknowledge that statement far enough to deny it? No? Then just go back to spouting nonsensical inanities, dropping arguments and getting owned by pretty much everyone that replies to you. Whatever floats your boat.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15814383

If they wouldn't have caught this guy, they would have said he represented OWS. Basically, anything that happens within the vicinity of any protest is the protest.

But on the flip side, banksters that destroyed the global economy for their benefit and then demand the public pay for it causing the protests to begin with? Totally different. Totally. The banksters are legit and should be dealt with only through the rules they wrote.

TWO THUMBS UP

Originally posted by fanfaron:

I don't know about this particular alleged incident, but don't worry, the OWS supporters here will no doubt come up with a rationalization or two regardless of whatever goes on at Occupy events. Uh, they weren't really members of OWS, ya know, or you can't judge the worth of the thing based on a few bad apples, blahblahblah. And this is after they had to make up incidents of violence occurring at Tea Party events. This is the sort of utter dishonesty and hypocrisy that really turned me off of the Democratic party and its adherents back during the 2008 election cycle. I'm not a member of either "movement", TP or OWS. But I would like to see some consistency and basic honesty from those critiquing both. The moonbatty OWS shills in this thread have yet to address the hypocrisy issue. They have no defense other than strawmen and re

Fanfaron, you are on the right track, but, a few things to consider... The OWS is purely dysfunctional in terms of a distraction. If this was like the civil right movement, things would transpire differently, and everyone, would in some way, accept the fact of whats happening. But since the OWS is nothing but puppets, hypocrisy truly can't be factored in to this. And yes, being neutral is best.

Originally posted by xyzoneon:

The whole "OWS is violent hippies" is sticking about as well as "we are the 43% webcammers in pajamas".

umm how does this even work?

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Something's sticking pretty well, considering the plummeting support for OWS. And that's with what was fairly positive press coverage starting out. You're not the "99%". You're more like the 10%, and it was bound to become apparent sooner or later.

As long as people understand that those number are merely for bandwagon jumpers ONLY!

Originally posted by xyzoneon:

Mainstream media is state news.

Uhhh if you to think such you can.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

But I would like to see some consistency and basic honesty from those critiquing both. The moonbatty OWS shills in this thread have yet to address the hypocrisy issue. They have no defense other than strawmen and red herrings.

Let me get this straight. You would like some consistency and honesty while not applying those traits to your won criticism. Got it! The OWS complains Crony Capitalism and it's moonbatty, Sarah Palin complains of the same thing and it's not, etc. Talk about hypocrisy.

Originally posted by Jesus:

First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother's eye

Originally posted by xyzoneon:

Repetition and redundunce (sp?).

Not to mention, that's not even true. "The protesters don't seem to have know what they're protesting" and assorted other tripe.

What Fanfaron is saying about plummeting support seems to be basically made up as well
More Continue To Support Occupy Wall Street Goals Than Oppose Them


Gallup shows very little change as well.

This is despite the Soviet era Pravda-like "reporting" the MSM as been giving against them.

The nation is still recovering from a crushing recession that sent unemployment hovering above nine percent for two straight years. The president, mindful of soaring deficits, is pushing bold action to shore up the nation’s balance sheet. Cloaking himself in the language of class warfare, he calls on a hostile Congress to end wasteful tax breaks for the rich. “We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share,” he thunders to a crowd in Georgia. Such tax loopholes, he adds, “sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying 10 percent of his salary – and that’s crazy.”

Preacherlike, the president draws the crowd into a call-and-response. “Do you think the millionaire ought to pay more in taxes than the bus driver,” he demands, “or less?”

What President is this...the NAZI/Socialist/Communist/Fascist Obama?

The crowd, sounding every bit like the protesters from Occupy Wall Street, roars back: “MORE!”

Oh no! The mob is violent and demanding the 1%'s money....Holy Shit! Run for cover! Won't somebody think of the children?!?

Why that President was Reagan himself

"Taxes are ridiculously low!" says Bruce Bartlett, an architect of Reagan's 1981 tax cut. "And yet the mantra of the Republican Party is 'Tax cuts raise growth.' So – where's the fucking growth?"

Barlett's profanity, not mine.

"It was not a Democrat who led the effort in 1982 to undo about a third of the Reagan tax cuts," recalls Robert Greenstein, president of the nonpartisan Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. "It was Bob Dole." Even Reagan embraced the tax hike, Stockman says, "because he believed that, at some point, you have to pay the bills."

Yeah, pay the bills...

A study by the Federal Reserve estimated that the tax giveaways boosted housing transactions by 17 percent through 2007.

Clearly it was the government's fault after all, for giving too many tax breaks

The stimulus argument was lousy economics. The previous two decades, after all, had demonstrated that "trickle-down" tax cuts don't juice the economy – they create bubbles and balloon deficits.

Yup. Maybe that's why the CBO projected these deficts well before Obama took office.

The article goes on with Bush's tax cuts and picks back up at the 2010 elections:

"You can look up my record: On conservatism and taxes I was better than Jesse Helms," says Simpson, the former senator. "But whatever happened to common sense? People are going to look around in five or 10 years and say, 'Whatever happened to the things that made me comfortable? That made our streets and schools good things?'

Up in smoke...

Looking at those poll tables unfortunately shows how deeply divided the country is and how it gives no clear solution as to the direction to go?

I also think that Macallan is wrong in comparing like with like over the police in the UK and the USA. The American police have a far more violent image and only too keen to turn out like the paramilitary even without a riot but for peaceful protests. They flaunt the batons in willing hope. The service of both police services is vastly different Police in the US have a tougher and more intimidating stance and often for the least wee thing. Such does conflict with principles and seems rather out of kilter when it comes to serving never mind protecting. I feel you are often ill-served by macho stuff. Recent happenings I suspect have been an eye opener for decent people who thought they lived in a fre society free from uniformed intimidation.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Oh no! The mob is violent and demanding the 1%'s money....Holy Shit! Run for cover! Won't somebody think of the children?!?

"Reganomics will hurt us, it commie talk. We are democracy". Bull Fucking Shit.

Now the Campus Police chief has been put on Leave in addition to the two officers.

Hrmmmm.....

After the episode, Ms. Spicuzza told The Sacramento Bee that the students had surrounded the police, “cutting the officers off from their support.” The videos, however, show no evidence of threats from the protesters.

Even the nearly blind MSM notices that, the police were not threatened in any way.

One of the commenters said:

re “how to ensure proportional law enforcement response to nonviolent protest": For starters, let's de-militarize our police departments. No more riot gear, no more attack dogs, no more assault rifles, no more tasers, no more pepper spray. Only squads assigned to truly dangerous work should be given guns and bullet-proof vests. You would see an immediate change in the attitude of the force.

It's true. I noticed pointed out that in even showing up like that escalates the situation, but it would also decrease the "macho stuff" Howie mentioned.

Another commenter pointed out the same thing happened in the 1999 WTO demonstrations in Seattle. Demonstrators just sitting their on the sidewalk getting sprayed.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Why that President was Reagan himself

You-know-who after reading that:

............................................

Great shot, what kind of ammo did they use, & at what distance was the shot taken?



My preferred handgun of choice.

This is why Righties are no fun, just shooting stuff. It's more visceral and all around more fun just smashin' shit

Awwwww, you Leftists are so passive-----Takin' it out on fruits-----How homophobicly symbolic--

This VC won't be comin' 'round no moe,,,,no moe,,,,,,no moe,,,,no moe!!

.......................

"Tanks" against the demonstrators?



http://news.yahoo.com/police-tank-spurs-wild-speculation-occupy-tampa-rally-165800157.html

FIRST PERSON | TAMPA, Fla. -- The police department's Tactical Response Team (TRP) rolled out a tank at the Occupy Tampa protest today at Curtis Hixon Park in downtown.

The purpose of the vehicle was unclear and its presence immediately sparked wide speculation among the protestors. I have to admit that when I first saw the tank, it felt ominous and an extreme measure.

....

According to the city of Tampa's website, "Rescue 2" is a "12-ton Armored Personnel Carrier (APC)… can be used for search and rescue during a natural disaster or terrorist attack."

Another source says the police claim it was on the way to a Great American Teach-in event, but that's a lie. Turns out the vehicle was actually parked there. Why do our law enforce persist in lying? Anette Annette Spicuzza lied about the police being surrounded. What else did they lie about?

Now I can agree with the author that the protesters jumped to some wild conclusions, although the very presence of the vehicle is frightening (perhaps it was psychological tactic by the police as the article suggests) I knew immediately that it wasn't a tank, but an APC, then again I grew around the military. Funny that the author mocks the protester's lack of research, when he can't even research the correct usage of the word "protestor" (the correct usage can be found here


Here's a clip from a local television station that reports the police lie that was just driving by, despite it being parked there. It further shows a small group just standing there with signs. Those folks were well under control and didn't need psychological intimidation.

In the video, retired FBI agent Brian Kensel is also lying. A quick check at Wikipedia tells us that pepper spray is not as harmless as he says. At least 27 people in California have died from complications from the chemical weapon. People with asthma or conditions can die of it.

The US Army concluded in a 1993 Aberdeen Proving Ground study that pepper spray could cause "[m]utagenic effects, carcinogenic effects, sensitization, cardiovascular and pulmonary toxicity, neurotoxicity, as well as possible human fatalities. There is a risk in using this product on a large and varied population"

...

Pepper spray has been associated with positional asphyxiation of individuals in police custody. There is much debate over the actual "cause" of death in these cases. There have been few controlled clinical studies of the human health effects of pepper spray marketed for police use, and those studies are contradictory.

So don't just start spraying folks unless you're actually in danger

Super Committee Dead!

Bush tax cuts for the rich set to expire in 2012!

Will they actually let it happen?

Oh, btw, watermelons don't shoot back.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Not to mention, that's not even true. "The protesters don't seem to have know what they're protesting" and assorted other tripe.

That's what I meant. Talking points keep being repeated despite clear replies refuting them every time. Not even acknowledgement of said replies, just pretending like it never happened and repeating the same things. It's deranged behavior no matter how you slice it, not any less if it's supposed to be entertainment.

And police tanks? I think this is not new either? But how much more of a macho, brutal syndrome are these city police forces going to get? The heavy stuff they use is way beyond what is needed and there always seems to be a surfeit to such determinations. They might as well have the military on the streets as they get neaer to being like them all the time and excuses given for it. Why does this all seem such an imbalanced matter compared to rights, freedom to demonstrate (especially peacefully) and so on. When you get people who have fought for the country, an ex-police senior officer and many decent folk who are far from being a danger to the nation treated to this paramilitary that is an excuse for a police force it is ludicrous.

In addition, I do not think many Americans realise the picture that is coming out of all this elsewhere as it seems to show the same brutality one would get in foreign States that have a daily restriction on rights. However the blinkered over the pond who see anyone as taking an oppsite view of issues as anti-American, dangerous Socialists (they wouldn't know what a real one is unles he bit them), and an excuse for repression and the old excuse of protecting. If ever anything was a a nonsense it is "serve and protect". They are self protecting and if you try to weed out the bad ones they close ranks on you and is a damn uphill struggle. It is like a society within a society and Hell mend you if you dare to challenge them. Their idea of democracy, etc is if they decide what it is. If many of them had lived somwhere else in the 1930's they would have filled the ranks of the SA. They totally alienate the principles the country is meant to have.

The Occupy Wall Street protesters who left New York two weeks ago for a 240-mile march to Washington have arrived in the nation's capital.
Marchers have dealt with blisters, bad weather, and roads and bridges unfriendly to pedestrians. One man even made the entire journey without shoes.
About two dozen people left from New York's Zuccoti Park on Nov. 9, and the march, known as "Occupy the Highway," now includes about 40 people. Not all the original marchers made the entire journey, but the march picked up new people along the way.
Participants say the march was successful because they were able to bring the Occupy Wall Street movement to rural communities that previously had little exposure to the protests.

source


Me thinketh these words fit the OCCUPY WALL STREET INFESTATION or OWSI's attempt to get public support quite appropriately :

DUD

FIZZLE

POOF

THUD, BOING, FLOP

FAILURE

These words sum up the OWASI........PERIOD!!!!

Another Leftist 'lab experiment' where all the subjects survived,
but nobody could remember the initial reason it started, & could care less!

Wow, 20 to 40 that's a 100% increase, ha, ha. The amusement factor is here too. Outside St Paul's Cathedral at the camp the majority went home at nights! The same happened with the handful at George Square the central point of Glasgow until they moved that mile west to spoil a lovely park! Just think Smileyfaze if you went out on the hghway as a counter demonstration by yourself you would produce atwo and a half percentage of them which isn't a bad start?!

For for some sense, unlike what SF offers.

Yes, it was a small crowd, but they ended with more people than they started with and Owen Johnson (the one that walked the entire distance barefoot) and others walked the entire 240 miles distance and spread the message

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/occupy-the-highway-marchers-complete-2-week-240-mile-trek-from-new-york-to-dc/2011/11/22/gIQAuZf7lN_story.html

Not all made the trip unscathed. One had to quit because of shin splints, others because of illness. A marcher was hit by a car Monday night but still made it to Washington

That's right, hit by a car and still made it Could any member of the TP even begin a trek like this, much less complete it injured like this? Nope.

Don't know they they were marching my foot...

The march was timed to coincide with the conclusion of work by the congressional deficit-cutting supercommittee. Participants wanted to push for an end to Bush-era tax cuts that they (sic) benefit only the wealthy. The supercommittee announced Monday it had failed to reach an agreement, and marchers said they weren’t surprised.

Yup, the only failure point was not realizing that the GOP would try to "deficit reduction" by further lowering the taxes for the rich, thereby triggering payroll tax hikes for the middle class. Then again, who could have known the GOP would be that economically illiterate that really thought reducing the top tax rate for millionaires from 35% to 28% would actually lower the deficit, since thoughts like that would seem to be something that could only emanate from the diseased brains of mental asylum inmates.

Oh, by the way, the main group gave the marchers 3,000 for the trip. The marchers didn't need any of because of support given to them by the citizens.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Just think Smileyfaze if you went out on the hghway as a counter demonstration by yourself

That's true. The TP couldn't even piece together even a tiny counter-demonstration. What ever happened to the TP?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Wow, 20 to 40 that's a 100% increase, ha, ha. The amusement factor is here too. Outside St Paul's Cathedral at the camp the majority went home at nights! The same happened with the handful at George Square the central point of Glasgow until they moved that mile west to spoil a lovely park! Just think Smileyfaze if you went out on the hghway as a counter demonstration by yourself you would produce atwo and a half percentage of them which isn't a bad start?!

The majority at St Pauls stay through the night. The 'night vision' camera the police used that couldn't detect people in the tents at night wasn't up to the job, as was shown when somebody, acting under the guidance of the company from whom the police got their camera, used exactly the same equipment, which detected an infra red silhouette of people on the pavement at night, but when they entered a tent they disapeared.
And as most of the Occupy protesters live in different parts of the country,going home at night isn't an option.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

The TP couldn't even piece together even a tiny counter-demonstration. What ever happened to the TP?

Seriously, you jest!

Counter??? Counter what? Counter a FAILURE??

Who in their right mind would want to waste their time countering a FAILED group of dirty, smelly malcontents?

What would that accomplish?

Absolutely nothing!

Absolutely nothing, which was exactly what the OWSI accomplished....ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, except to solidify the fact that they are unimportant, & that people are quickly smartening up to the scam, a scam being perpetrated on the backs of some misguided youth, misfits, & wannabe somethings/someones by organized labor, the SEIU, the Communist & Socialist Worker Parties, among other international organizations & financiers that want to destroy the U.S.A. economically so we can join Europe way down there at the bottom of the barrel.

Get real 'Coon. Personally you might be a alright guy, but this OWS Infestation you're hooked up with is just a dingle berry on the ass hairs of a maggot infested malnourished musk ox.

You can't demonstrate any failure. The group more than doubled in number on the journey, more than tripled starting with only 12. They weren't about influence the outcome of the meeting, it's true, because the GOP ruined that with it's idiocy before marchers could arrived. However, they passed through the country side spreading the message.

Oh yeah, you don't really want to compare "endorsers." But there always tag along organization that "endorse" more successful groups trying to get publicity.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

but this OWSI you're hooked up to is just a dingle berry on the ass hairs

What have you got against Open Water Scuba Instructors? Those are the only OWSI that even exists outside your deranged imagination. (Maybe there's a scale from 1-10 on out far Left or Right you are, which 1 being the extreme Left...it might be the case Scuba Instructors rate a 4.5 and are therefore communists/fascists/socialists. I have heard the some scuba divers could possibly hold "socialist" views )

The reasons the tp couldn't counter demonstrate are as follows 1) They barely exist anymore, so it's hard even finding a dozen of them 2) The weather wasn't always nice...they might have gotten wet 3) They were too busy playing with their guns like it was part of their body anyway....

The Occupy W.S. movement is long overdue, and the fact it has spread overseas, much less nation wide, is an indication that
the global population is also experiencing the same exploitive intentions and are also in solidarity with the movement.
Pepper spray if you must, but it just plants more seeds for growth in opposition to the ruling elite.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

but this OWSI you're hooked up to is just a dingle berry on the ass hairs

What have you got against Open Water Scuba Instructors? Those are the only OWSI that even exists outside your deranged imagination. (Maybe there's a scale from 1-10 on out far Left or Right you are, which 1 being the extreme Left...it might be the case Scuba Instructors rate a 4.5 and are therefore communists/fascists/socialists. I have heard the some scuba divers could possibly hold "socialist" views )

The reasons the tp couldn't counter demonstrate are as follows 1) They barely exist anymore, so it's hard even finding a dozen of them 2) The weather wasn't always nice...they might have gotten wet 3) They were too busy playing with their guns like it was part of their body anyway....

Please....quit embarrassing yourself & retain some personal dignity while you still can, by refraining from the desperate nonsense you've exhibited above, which is light-years past pathetic.

Failure to comply might be grounds for a massive tea-bagging............but don't get your hopes up!

OWSI = OCCUPY WALL STREET INFESTATION

Originally posted by zapl25:

The attempted defacing of anothers fact based observations hardly lends credence to he who applies such a compromised method of debating tactics.Willful ignorance is the choice of the delusional.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

What have you got against Open Water Scuba Instructors? Those are the only OWSI that even exists outside your deranged imagination. (Maybe there's a scale from 1-10 on out far Left or Right you are, which 1 being the extreme Left...it might be the case Scuba Instructors rate a 4.5 and are therefore communists/fascists/socialists. I have heard the some scuba divers could possibly hold "socialist" views

I can't agree more, 'Coon may need to seek professional help......In your own words "Willful ignorance is the choice of the delusional".


He is totally immersed in "Willful Ignorance".

I appreciate you pointing that out.

Thanks Steve...

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Please....quit embarrassing yourself & retain some personal dignity while you still can, by refraining from the desperate nonsense you've exhibited above, which is light-years past pathetic.

Failure to comply might be grounds for a massive tea-bagging............but don't get your hopes up!

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Willful Ignorance

sounds like how you listen and deal with real issues

Tea Party will not "counter protest" the natural progression of OWS until perhaps the American storm troopers develop a mass unconstitutional imprisonment campaign. http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/senators-demand-military-lock-american-citizens-battlefield-they-define-being

The reason for this is that the TV news actors need to pretend like OWS went away, and obviously it would be a paradox to propagandize against something which must be narrated to not existing, esp. when taking real footage.

The only feasible way they would do it would be to leave in some puny amount of token remnants for the teabaggers to yell at. And by tiny amount it could mean equal amount to actual tea participants, such as the final tea protest that was covered by the MSM (main state media) consisting of 23 people.

Ishkabibble's gonna have a GIZMO!!

Doesn't this contest between the Tea Party and Wall Street Protestors only make the deep divison in your society obvious? It's the froth at the top and deep inside their is a stronger thing?

Originally posted by xyzoneon:

......such as the final tea protest that was covered by the MSM (main state media) consisting of 23 people.

The Local Tea Party Movements are totally independent & do whatever they wish.

If they wish to protest they will, but if they choose to do other productive tasks they will.

The greater majority of ATPM groups were represented at at 4 National & 2 Regional 'get togethers' this past summer, where there was basic agreements to limit ATPM exposure (marches, & protests), while stepping up efforts for the 2012 Elections Objective 'Push to Take Back America' which is focused on an aggressive Nation Wide voter registration campaign.

To date it has succeeded better than we could have ever expected---over 3 million 'new' registered potential first time voters who agree with ATPM basic precepts with just shy of 12 month left to go! Based on our present progress we are aiming for 6 million more 'new potential first time voters' who hold our objectives to heart, ready to 'wash' the Anointed One out of office, & with his cohorts far out to sea!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Doesn't this contest between the Tea Party and Wall Street Protestors only make the deep divison in your society obvious?

Americans always come together when absolutely necessary---shoulder to shoulder to take on a common enemy, but at all other times we like the highly contested & polarized 'tug-of-wars', which to you must be quite uncivil......definitely not for the weak of heart or the squeamish.

I would expect that regardless of our extremely contrary positions, that if there was an enemy at the doorsteps, both camps would immediately drop what we are bickering over, pick up arms, & be willing to co-mingle our spillt blood in a common defense of America.

That's what it is to be American. Labels of ATPM or OWS mean nothing compared to that!

Tea Tsunami? The TP is ICU and the doctors are not optimistic. Once and a while it comes out if coma to say "We got Newt to the top of the polls" (the poor anti-GOP establishment thing doesn't realize he more GOP establishment than Romney himself, it most be the lack of oxygen to its walnut sized brain)

The TP Congress is at 13% approval and the stale is is about to poured down the drain in Nov 2012. Twice as many voters blame the GOP than the Democrats for the failure of the Supercorruption Supercommittee.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Please....quit embarrassing yourself & retain some personal dignity while you still can, by refraining from the desperate nonsense you've exhibited above, which is light-years past pathetic.

Now I can appreciate a good troll as much as the next guy, be seriously, what is your basis for calling the march a failure? I've yet to see any TP'er get over their fat ass and even attempt something like this. Nope. They sit in their darkened room stroking their...guns vigorously to idiocy calling anything to left of Mussolini socialist.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

The greater majority of ATPM groups were represented at at 4 National & 2 Regional 'get togethers' this past summer, where there was basic agreements to limit ATPM exposure

Of course. Your support continues to plummet and you no don't have the numbers anymore. Sure, good PR means managing your exposure so people don't simply tire of you; but nobody declines this far, this fast deliberately. Your group is a ship spiraling down the the maelstrom to the bottom of the ocean. Don't get it, yet? OK. The captain of the Titanic thought still thought his ship was invincible up to the point when the iceberg struck. The passengers were even more obvious than he was.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Americans always come together when absolutely necessary---shoulder to shoulder to take on a common enemy, but at all other times we like the highly contested & polarized 'tug-of-wars', which to you must be quite uncivil......definitely not for the weak of heart or the squeamish.

I'm not sure what exactly in that statement makes me think of this, but Winston Churchill said:

Originally posted by Winston Churchill:

"The Americans Will Always Do the Right Thing…After They Have Exhausted All the Alternatives."

We have to fight among ourselves and seemingly do everything else wrong and than arrive at conclusion. We should have stopped fighting by now, but our corrupt leadership is too inept at this time to take the salient points from both sides and forge a policy to deal with the real issues in our political system and economy.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

'Push to Take Back America' which is focused on an aggressive Nation Wide voter registration campaign.

Sounds good in principle. Hell, I'll help. There's a big issue, though. We need to fix the politicians themselves. The ones you helped elect the last time are corrupt, economically illiterate assclowns. Yeah,it's repetitive but WTF made them think the reducing taxes to the rich more would reduce (Laffer never said all tax cuts would increase revenue, only tax cuts when the taxes are above a certain rate would, dumbshits)

Oh my, I'm so surprised or whatever. "Pepper" spraying Lt. John Pike had to settle a lawsuit for racial and sexual orientation for 240,000 USD in 2008

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Oh my, I'm so surprised or whatever. "Pepper" spraying Lt. John Pike had to settle a lawsuit for racial and sexual orientation for 240,000 USD in 2008

<iframe allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen" frameborder="0" height="381" scrolling="no" src="http://embed.myopera.com/video/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D63bia-XrioU&height=375&width=620&title=+" width="626" />

Where have you been?
This is old news.
You were so busy praising his outstanding Resume a while back you must have missed it.

Being it was an Anti-Gay lawsuit, & he lost it, I'd have thought your sphincter would have been hemorrhaging blue & orange leprechauns, & spittin' pink & silver laced pickles, but no.......you were so OCCUPY'ed with your own BS, you missed it!!



You're bad!

Tell me how bad I am again. It makes me feel so good So anyway, no defense for his racism and homophobia, than?

Oh what BS was that? I proved everything I said about his resume, that he wasn't some scared rentacop while you went on that maybe he was being discharged from the Marines for being again (along with other comical BS) His violence trumped his bigotry. He really should have been fired in 2008 and all this could have been avoided.

So the hell what if Thinkprogress and Democraticunderground and some day magazines broke the story two days ago. The Daily Mail also reported, but they're not known for checking the accuracy of their stories. Two days ago, the amount was up for questioning. Was 240,000 or 250,000 and so the facts weren't settled I know letting the facts come in is an alien concept to Righties, but that's just the way of things.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by fanfaron:

But I would like to see some consistency and basic honesty from those critiquing both. The moonbatty OWS shills in this thread have yet to address the hypocrisy issue. They have no defense other than strawmen and red herrings.

Let me get this straight. You would like some consistency and honesty while not applying those traits to your won criticism. Got it! The OWS complains Crony Capitalism and it's moonbatty, Sarah Palin complains of the same thing and it's not, etc. Talk about hypocrisy.

What do crony capitalism and Sarah Palin have to do with it, other than providing you with more red herrings? See, the point is you spent 70 pages or so in the TP thread magnifying any imagined instance of violence in the TP, looking for every misspelling on placards to paint them as stupid, etc etc. On the other hand, these OWS tent cities can look like something out of A Clockwork Orange and you sit around combing through the resumes of the police for blameworthy stuff.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Gallup shows very little change as well.

This is despite the Soviet era Pravda-like "reporting" the MSM as been giving against them.

You have GOT to be kidding. Do you really want to compare media coverage of the two movements side by side?

The point is that even with generally anti-TP coverage from the very beginning and what was pro-OWS coverage at the outset, support for the two is roughly equal.
And yeah, xyzoneon, we do have a "state media", and it generally favors whatever the official attitude is of the DNC.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Yes, it was a small crowd, but they ended with more people than they started with

So does your typical car wreck. You can slam the Tea Party all you want, but they have been, are, and will continue to be influential politically. The political influence of OWS has been zero, except maybe to help Republicans out next year when they hang OWS around Democratic necks.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Tell me how bad I am again. It makes me feel so good So anyway, no defense for his racism and homophobia, than?

Oh what BS was that? I proved everything I said about his resume, that he wasn't some scared rentacop while you went on that maybe he was being discharged from the Marines for being again (along with other comical BS) His violence trumped his bigotry. He really should have been fired in 2008 and all this could have been avoided.

Yeah, if there hadn't been this questionable cop then we wouldn't have had rapes and shootings and thefts in these squalid tent cities, would we? Please. Another red herring.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

[

among other international organizations & financiers that want to destroy the U.S.A. economically so we can join Europe way down there at the bottom of the barrel.

Foreigners have been trying to destroy the USA since 1776, without success. However, your own bankers are achieving just that. As they suck your countries wealth what we are seeing is the beginning of the end of the US as an economic super power.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

The point is that even with generally anti-TP coverage from the very beginning and what was pro-OWS coverage at the outset, support for the two is roughly equal.

What pro-OWS coverage is that?

Originally posted by fanfaron:

What do crony capitalism and Sarah Palin have to do with it, other than providing you with more red herrings?

You're seriously going to go back and address this? Really? OK.The point is that everybody, everybody knows there's a problem of crony capitalism, corporate patronage and excessive lobbyist influence. It doesn't matter if one considers himself liberal, Conservative or middle of the road. If you don't think that contributed to the political discontent felt in this country as well as to the myriad of economic issues we face, you're a bigger fool than I thought. Maybe a not a fool, per say, but such a reactionary partisan that you don't even know what you're saying; you're just reacting.

Anything someone you perceive as "liberal", such as myself*, is automatically wrong despite the fact that it's in agreement with conservatives such as Palin. In your history, pretty much everything Palin said was correct. That is, until I pointed out that I'm in agreement with her. Think about it. I'm still amazed at Palin though. Now that's she not running for anything and thus doesn't have to appeal to an economically and socially retarded base such as yourself, she can finally just be herself. That being the case, now she can (now this is a paraphrase, of course since I don't feel like going back all those pages and digging the actual quote back up since it won't mean anything to you anyway) "If the supercommittee is trying to cut the deficit, why are they taking reducing defense spending off the table?" and other things that actually make sense. Hell, she's even after Karl Rove Go, Sarah, go?

You guys aren't conservative. You're a weird, out of touch parody of conservationism. You take sound economic ideas such as it's possible to tax people so much that you diminish productivity and incentive to invest and turn it into trying to further cut taxes on the rich and think your increasing revenue..asinine.

* Once again, if I'm so loony left, so are the majority of Americans. Allow same sex marriage..check, increase taxes on millionaires..check, etc

Originally posted by fanfaron:

The political influence of OWS has been zero, except maybe to help Republicans out next year when they hang OWS around Democratic necks.

Oh that won't stick. In NH, OWS protesters drowned out Obama's speech People already know the OWS isn't the Democratic Party. As far as political influence; the TP influence has been picking and choosing GOP candidates who are the same ones that caused the supercommittee to fail with their ludicrous "ideas." The OWS doesn't even seek corrupt influence like that. The idea is to turn the attention to economic issues facing the country, such as unemployment and corruption. To that end, they've shown success .

Do you understand yet? The TP wants (and has achieved) direct influence over the GOP. The OWS doesn't want that type of influence over either corrupt party. Instead, it seeks influence over the media.

So foreigners have been trying to destroy the USA since 1776 have they? A rather kind of putrid excuse for trying to dominate and manipulate the rest of the world jo15d. Considering thw massive military and economic domination for purely own benefit a bemusing concept! Indeed you are destroying yourself internally with the same money establishment that created the mistake in 1776.

The Wall Street Journal says "Why Bankers Should Be Grateful for Occupy Wall Street"

This Thanksgiving weekend, Wall Street should say a prayer of gratitude for Occupy Wall Street.

WTF? Aren't they most dangerous leftist loons out there, or whatever? Hardly.

The Journal says that todays bankers sound like a bunch of babies, but:

In 1870, the essayist Henry Adams compared the financier Jay Gould to a spider; Joseph Pulitzer, the famous editor, later called Gould "one of the most sinister figures that have ever flitted bat-like across the vision of the American people."

In 1883, a young New York state legislator named Theodore Roosevelt lambasted "the wealthy criminal class" on Wall Street. In 1910, Sen. Robert LaFollette of Wisconsin called J.P. Morgan "a beefy, red-faced, thick-necked financial bully, drunk with wealth and power."

Between 1892 and 1911, at least 53 bills were introduced in Congress to stifle speculation and derivatives trading, although none quite became law. No fewer than 21 states—including California, Illinois, Massachusetts, Ohio and Texas—passed laws restricting speculation, short selling or trading in futures or options.

..

The Occupy Wall Street protesters have also been far more peaceful than their forebears.

This is not Thinkprogress, the Huffington Post or any other liberal outlet. This is the WSJ, the outlet for the financial establishment, mind you

The article goes on to mention bombings and assassination attempts, none of which happened with the OWS.

Then the article comes into agreement with me over the need for regulation:

Wall Street rarely concedes that regulation has made the markets safer not only for investors but for Wall Street itself. Because the public believes that modern regulation enforces standards of fairness that were lacking in the past, bankers and brokers don't have to fear for their lives when they walk down the sidewalk.

You think? Deregulate too much and we've seen what happens.

One reader said in comment:

I support the use of my taxes to create a gulag for bankers and investment criminals wherein they will be treated in the spirit of the Siberian gulags, where they do forced labor and eat sheep eyes. We can send their wives and kids there, too.

They wives and kids shouldn't be sent off to gulag, but we have a nice American Siberia in Alaska for those bankers themselves.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Considering thw massive military and economic domination for purely own benefit a bemusing concept!

Cuz Britain would never have attempted to dominate the world economically and militarily..nope...no sireee..never...






Oh wait..that was the "good empire"

"Black," said the Kettle to the Pot.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

So foreigners have been trying to destroy the USA since 1776 have they? A rather kind of putrid excuse for trying to dominate and manipulate the rest of the world jo15d. Considering thw massive military and economic domination for purely own benefit a bemusing concept! Indeed you are destroying yourself internally with the same money establishment that created the mistake in 1776.

Can you clarify your point a bit?

Firstly jo15d.

You were the one who raised the historical by saying foreigners had been trying to destroy America since the antics of 1776 and I satirically (as is my wont) replied that maybe that was why the USA has been stomping round the world trying to dump their woeful idea of democracy either by stealth, economically or militarily. One would not have thought that required an explanation?

And to Sanguinemoon.

American Imperialism IS an Empire. Based on military might and economic strangultion of anywhere that doesn't want you or what passes for American 'culture' (now there's a misused word in the context), involvement,etc. During your period of Imperialism if any country dares to get you miffed they can expect to be done in economically or and excuse made for a war. Why the Hell do you think your country has been involved in so many war games since WW"?! Our former Empire did not bring the place to it's knees nor cause a world-wide financial debacle and the present state of America is by it's own corrupting hand. So by all accounts in the league of Empires yours has been the most disastrous and not satisfied with pooring your own folk and creating a dictatorship of the Corporates you even export that to everyone else!!

That too is a simple explanation for easy understanding anywhere!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Firstly jo15d.

You were the one who raised the historical by saying foreigners had been trying to destroy America since the antics of 1776 and I satirically (as is my wont) replied that maybe that was why the USA has been stomping round the world trying to dump their woeful idea of democracy either by stealth, economically or militarily. One would not have thought that required an explanation?

And to Sanguinemoon.

American Imperialism IS an Empire. Based on military might and economic strangultion of anywhere that doesn't want you or what passes for American 'culture' (now there's a misused word in the context), involvement,etc. During your period of Imperialism if any country dares to get you miffed they can expect to be done in economically or and excuse made for a war. Why the Hell do you think your country has been involved in so many war games since WW"?! Our former Empire did not bring the place to it's knees nor cause a world-wide financial debacle and the present state of America is by it's own corrupting hand. So by all accounts in the league of Empires yours has been the most disastrous and not satisfied with pooring your own folk and creating a dictatorship of the Corporates you even export that to everyone else!!

That too is a simple explanation for easy understanding anywhere!

It's more like it's been brewing since the first large economies and it just migrated to the US.



If and when the US falls from power, the next super power would take over the imperialist bankster business.

Trolleyphaze in cartoonland debates a dog:


Emerging product from brilliant minds rescues economy:





(you can tell it's true when it's big font)

I can see why you would say xyzoneonthat some other world power would take over and would be easy for that to happen. But I wonder. My feeling is that the world would not want another such massive failure and misuse. Instead groups of countries getting together as is presently happening in the Far East which is itself keen to be at a distance.

America does have to try and reduce itself and live nearer to being able to control the massive overspend. Just think how much would be saved (not just a 10% drop) if the military and their pals the corporates supplying it had a reduction of meaningful proportions. Some 200 military places to pay for? Military alliances, etc. It needs to stop seeing itself as needing to be everyone elses saviour when this is no longer wanted. People elsewhere have moved on and it is no longer post WW2.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Firstly jo15d.

You were the one who raised the historical by saying foreigners had been trying to destroy America since the antics of 1776 and I satirically (as is my wont) replied that maybe that was why the USA has been stomping round the world trying to dump their woeful idea of democracy either by stealth, economically or militarily. One would not have thought that required an explanation?

And to Sanguinemoon.

American Imperialism IS an Empire. Based on military might and economic strangultion of anywhere that doesn't want you or what passes for American 'culture' (now there's a misused word in the context), involvement,etc. During your period of Imperialism if any country dares to get you miffed they can expect to be done in economically or and excuse made for a war. Why the Hell do you think your country has been involved in so many war games since WW"?! Our former Empire did not bring the place to it's knees nor cause a world-wide financial debacle and the present state of America is by it's own corrupting hand. So by all accounts in the league of Empires yours has been the most disastrous and not satisfied with pooring your own folk and creating a dictatorship of the Corporates you even export that to everyone else!!

That too is a simple explanation for easy understanding anywhere!

OK, I was a bit slow, but got it now.
But coming to your reply to Sanguinemoon, I don't think you can say which Empire, that of the UK or US, is worse. I agree with everything you say about American imperialism, but remember our empire was built on slavery. For nearly 200 years we were the biggest slavers and slave traders in the world. Many of our greatest cities became great on the profit from this trade, including Bristol, Liverpool, Leeds and Bradford, while the City of London and the aristocracy of England and Scotland grew fat on financing it.
And though we are no longer a great power, we still do our bit to help the Americans, as in the invasion of Iraq.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Doesn't this contest between the Tea Party and Wall Street Protestors only make the deep divison in your society obvious?

Americans always come together when absolutely necessary--

Indeed, as in other countries, when people can see who the enemy is. But the current enemy of us all in the western world is hiding behind a wall of lies that is deceiving many.
To illustrate my point. In 2008 UK public debt rose by 80% because of the cost of bailing out the banks. That caused a recession in which many have lost their jobs, or businesses, and for many their homes. Now public services are being savaged. Some would say that in principle some areas of public spending should be cut, be that welfare, the police, military or whatever. Opinions differ, but public expenditure should be determined by the merits of each case, not slashed because rich bankers have dumped a huge debt on the public purse.
And that's why I support Occupy. I don't care that many of them maybe left wing, which I'm not, because they have identified the biggest economic issue of our time, one that dwarfs all others put together. That is, the criminal conspiracy of banks and our elected representatives to commit grand robbery on the rest of us.
That sure as heck ain't capitalism! I'd call it wicked, evil, grant theft, nothing less.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

During your period of Imperialism if any country dares to get you miffed they can expect to be done in economically or and excuse made for a war.

Come now, Howie. Britain was pushing opium on the Chinese. Or were the Opium Wars good wars to bring commerce and civilization or was the Chinese government feed up with drug dealing Brits at the time? The India was conquered largely for the East Indian Company. Need I continue?

Originally posted by jo15d:

But coming to your reply to Sanguinemoon, I don't think you can say which Empire, that of the UK or US, is worse.

I wasn't saying which was better or worse, just pointing out Howie's hypocrisy on the issue.

Originally posted by jo15d:

That is, the criminal conspiracy of banks and our elected representatives to commit grand robbery on the rest of us.

Yup, exactly. American public debt is 62.3% of GDP, which is lower than Britain's, but our gross debt is dwarfs that of Britain's.

Originally posted by jo15d:

That sure as heck ain't capitalism! I'd call it wicked, evil, grant theft, nothing less.

The American MSM has this habit of calling the OWS anti-capitalist, but aside from Socialist fringe elements, it's more free market in the truest sense than these Wall Street bankers.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

The India was conquered largely for the East Indian Company.

And by the East India Company.

Well I don't think there is much sign of them "coming together" these days? What with the Teabaggers and the Wall Streetews and the Congress more intent on playing at children in a school playground? Coming together is in short supply as reality has hit so many - finally.

A Federal judge has blocked a $285 Million Mortgage Settlement between the Security and Exchange Commission over accusations that it misled investors.

Originally posted by Judge Jed Rakoff:

"Doesn't the S.E.C. have an interest in what the truth is?"

He also criticized the SEC's "enforcement" practices

More on this issue.

Citigroup was accused of deceiving its customers by selling them $1 billion worth of risky mortgage securities that it knew would fall in value.

Now, Fanfaron, the mortgages were risky but this some of the behavior by the banks that I mentioned. In this case, the bank deliberately deceived investors about the risks involved. It was behavior such as this that contributed greatly to the financial crises. Understand yet?

Underscoring the importance of the case for the agency, Robert S. Khuzami, the S.E.C.’s director of enforcement, and George S. Canellos, the head of its New York office, attended the hearing. Ever since the financial crisis, political leaders and academics have accused the S.E.C. and other government agencies of going too easy on Wall Street and turning a blind eye to excessive risk taking.

More corruption.

This is the fifth time the SEC has settle with Citi on civil fraud accusations.

It is unclear whether Judge Rakoff will allow the bank to resolve this case under its current settlement terms. On Wednesday, the judge criticized the $95 million penalty against the bank, pointing out that the S.E.C. estimated investors’ total losses on the mortgage deal at $700 million.

“So the net effect of this is that you’re only returning a small fraction of what the investors lost, yes?” Judge Rakoff asked the S.E.C. lawyer.

Later in the hearing, the judge teased Brad S. Karp, the lawyer for Citigroup, about the penalty amount.

“I won’t be cute and ask what percentage of Citigroup’s net worth is $95 million because I do not have a microscope with me.”

So the investors were swindled out of $700 million and the only received a $95M fine. Seems like a good deal for the bank. In a little perspective, if I violate the law and choose to not pay the $300-something fee to register my car every year, I risk a $1,000 fine. It seems fair to me that the penalties against giant corporations should work the same way. The bank sells 1,000,000,000 in dodgy securities while misleading the investors and violating the law, resulting in a 700,000 loss to the investors the fine should be...lemme think...I violate the law and the fine is triple what I would have paid if I complied with the law...so $1,000,000,000 * 3 = 3,000,000,000 Corporations are people, correct, Righties, so they should face the same risks for breaking the law as an other "person."

This is all part of why people have taken to the streets in protest. It's clear the banks of been flagrantly violating the law, while receiving slap on the wrist punishments for their behavior. This and similar behavior led to the 2008 crash and the state the economy is in.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

And by the East India Company.

True. I realized that later when I couldn't stop reading about the East India Company. I won't get into it in detail, but the EIC seems to be the perfect cautionary tale about excessive corporate involvement in government and vice/versa.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

And by the East India Company.

True. I realized that later when I couldn't stop reading about the East India Company. I won't get into it in detail, but the EIC seems to be the perfect cautionary tale about excessive corporate involvement in government and vice/versa.

See how rjhowie was right all along? Absolutely everything the US ever did, the british empire did it first and on a bigger scale, including pointless wars, genocide, government owned by corporations, continent scale highway robbery etc.

Indeed, this copying Britain is pointless

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

And by the East India Company.

True. I realized that later when I couldn't stop reading about the East India Company. I won't get into it in detail, but the EIC seems to be the perfect cautionary tale about excessive corporate involvement in government and vice/versa.

See how rjhowie was right all along? Absolutely everything the US ever did, the british empire did it first and on a bigger scale, including pointless wars, genocide, government owned by corporations, continent scale highway robbery etc.

If I might, what I think rj is actually saying is that he is quite aware, but wishes it weren't so, how the former British Empire Royally cluster fΩ€ked the world up until it's demise, & in his traditionally helpful & crystal clear manner would like to see the U.S.of A. spared of the same bitter blunders that the British Empire endured in it's heyday & since.

Poor ole sot, he's only trying to inspire a more perfect world, rather than spank his dead monkey.

If nobody else rj, I understand ya incessant blather crystal clear.

Originally posted by jo15d:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Doesn't this contest between the Tea Party and Wall Street Protestors only make the deep divison in your society obvious?

Americans always come together when absolutely necessary--

Indeed, as in other countries, when people can see who the enemy is. But the current enemy of us all in the western world is hiding behind a wall of lies that is deceiving many.
To illustrate my point. In 2008 UK public debt rose by 80% because of the cost of bailing out the banks. That caused a recession in which many have lost their jobs, or businesses, and for many their homes. Now public services are being savaged. Some would say that in principle some areas of public spending should be cut, be that welfare, the police, military or whatever. Opinions differ, but public expenditure should be determined by the merits of each case, not slashed because rich bankers have dumped a huge debt on the public purse.
And that's why I support Occupy. I don't care that many of them maybe left wing, which I'm not, because they have identified the biggest economic issue of our time, one that dwarfs all others put together. That is, the criminal conspiracy of banks and our elected representatives to commit grand robbery on the rest of us.
That sure as heck ain't capitalism! I'd call it wicked, evil, grant theft, nothing less.

To add to this, something that's just emerged thanks to a Freedom of Information request,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2067359/Revealed-The-secret-1-2-TRILLION-bailout-given-banks.html

The Federal Reserve Board made a trillion dollar plus loan to US banks at such low rates of interest the banks made a profit from reinvesting it, and didn't tell Congress about this. I particularly like the comment of a Senator that the Tea Party and Occupy would be united in their fury at this.
The link is from a UK newspaper, if it can't be accessed in the US, I'm sure reports will be in the American media.

Originally posted by jo15d:

To add to this, something that's just emerged thanks to a Freedom of Information request

Nothing new...ancient news matter-in-fact....unless just new to you...

August 22, 2011

Might I add:

.........It wasn’t just American finance. Almost half of the Fed’s top 30 borrowers, measured by peak balances, were European firms. They included Edinburgh-based Royal Bank of Scotland Plc, which took $84.5 billion, the most of any non-U.S. lender, and Zurich-based UBS AG (UBSN), which got $77.2 billion. Germany’s Hypo Real Estate Holding AG borrowed $28.7 billion, an average of $21 million for each of its 1,366 employees.

The largest borrowers also included Dexia SA (DEXB), Belgium’s biggest bank by assets, and Societe Generale SA, based in Paris, whose bond-insurance prices have surged in the past month as investors speculated that the spreading sovereign debt crisis in Europe might increase their chances of default...........

Again, nothing new, just the little European tabloids recycling old dried out mud they cut & paste from Google!

Another 10 cupola's might get ya upta speed! Careful, caffeine can kill ya!

I think jo15d may well have a broad point there about the protestors and whether some are left wing is passing chaff. The fact is that there are a great many who are now poor through no fault of their own. They tend to be getting a very raw deal wheras very few of the money fingering baking lot end up penalised at all. The self protection of the ruling financial elite means they will get off with the moving around and misuse of money and with no Welfare State in the world's richest country you simply sink. If there is something deeply flawed and effects so many then the political dogma is not the criteria. Unfortunately thew money-nags are not so socially concerned although they will be the first to rush with hand on heart and emotion to stick up the flag and rally round America boys!

People have had their patriotism and loyalty misused and treated like the 1950's McCarthy nutters who labelled anyone they didn't like or agree with as 'in-American'. Transpose that to today and you have the very same attitude. Lost you job, house, income? Depend on some passing charity (like here in Victorian times!), somehow your loyalty to flag and nation has been taken and you are a disgrace to both!

Originally posted by jo15d:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2067359/Revealed-The-secret-1-2-TRILLION-bailout-given-banks.html

From the article:

Larger: The secret Wall Street loans well surpassed the previously controversial $700 billion TARP funds in 2008 not only funding the banks but according to Bloomberg, helping them grow

So if this is true, the secret loans actually dwarfed the TARP...

I don't completely trust the DM, so I checked other sources and The Motley Fool, a well respected financial services company goes into it detail.

Scandalicious. Few other words could describe the Fed's secret loans to American institutions, outlined in 29,000 pages of Fed documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act.

The short story: The Fed secretly lent or guaranteed $7.77 trillion to banks in need, a magnitude that dwarfs the $700 billion outlined in TARP. "And no one calculated until now that banks reaped an estimated $13 billion of income by taking advantage of the Fed's below-market rates," writes Bloomberg .

Holy shit! Pardon my French....7.77 trillion?!?

The Fed proudly claims that all loans have been paid back,

Bollocks. There's no way the banks could paid back that amount. Hell, even the 700,000,000 claimed to be "paid back" wasn't really paid back, except with securities that you can wipe your ass with to save money on toilet paper.

Investors have been rushing to dump these mega banks over recent weeks -- do you think this pessimism is justified?

Gee, ya think?

There are more American sources now.

Few people were aware of this, partly because bankers didn't disclose the extent of their borrowing.

JPMorgan Chase & Co. Chief Executive Officer Jamie Dimon told shareholders in March 2010 that his bank used the Fed's Term Auction Facility "at the request of the Federal Reserve to help motivate others to use the system."

He didn't say that the bank's total TAF borrowings were almost twice its cash holdings or that its peak borrowing of $48 billion came more than a year after the program's creation.

On Nov. 26, 2008, Bank of America's then-CEO Kenneth Lewis wrote to shareholders that he headed "one of the strongest and most stable major banks in the world." He didn't say that Bank of America owed the Fed $86 billion that day. Bank of America's borrowing peaked at $91.4 billion in February 2009.

Spokesmen for JPMorgan and Bank of America declined to comment.

Yeah, I'll bet they had no comment.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

August 22, 2011

Why this is news is that nobody knew it was this big.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-28/secret-fed-loans-undisclosed-to-congress-gave-banks-13-billion-in-income.html

The amount of money the central bank parceled out was surprising even to Gary H. Stern, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis from 1985 to 2009, who says he “wasn’t aware of the magnitude.”

....

No Clue
Lawmakers knew none of this.
They had no clue that one bank, New York-based Morgan Stanley (MS), took $107 billion in Fed loans in September 2008, enough to pay off one-tenth of the country’s delinquent mortgages. The firm’s peak borrowing occurred the same day Congress rejected the proposed TARP bill, triggering the biggest point drop ever in the Dow Jones Industrial Average. (INDU) The bill later passed, and Morgan Stanley got $10 billion of TARP funds, though Paulson said only “healthy institutions” were eligible.
Mark Lake, a spokesman for Morgan Stanley, declined to comment, as did spokesmen for Citigroup and Goldman Sachs.

Huh, how weird...more no comments.

This could be the end, my friend

Let's see..what to do. Dismantle the Fed. Break Bank of America, Citi, Goldman, JPMorgan Chase into at least 10 smaller banks each. Fuck it, make it 50 and not allow them to operate across state lines :wrecking ball:

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by jo15d:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2067359/Revealed-The-secret-1-2-TRILLION-bailout-given-banks.html

JPMorgan Chase & Co. Chief Executive Officer Jamie Dimon told shareholders in March 2010 that his bank used the Fed's Term Auction Facility "at the request of the Federal Reserve to help motivate others to use the system."

He didn't say that the bank's total TAF borrowings were almost twice its cash holdings or that its peak borrowing of $48 billion came more than a year after the program's creation.

Spokesmen for JPMorgan and Bank of America declined to comment.

Yeah, I'll bet they had no comment.
[/quote]

I'll make more comment on recent posts when I've got more time, but I must mention this now. Our (UK) ex Prime Minister, Tony Blair, is now on the pay roll at J P Morgan, getting paid about 2 million pounds a year. Everyday I hear something that sickens me more about this stitch up by banks and politicians.

Congress is demanding an investigation into the matter:

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Congress is demanding an investigation into the matter:

I wonder who had oversight responsibility in 2009?

Probably Bush & them damn Teabagging Republicans! :giggle:

Hopefully, Rep. Dr. Ron Paul (R) will tear those responsible for watching the Fed back then a new posterior orifice! He just adores the Fed!

I wonder, if it was Barney Frank, & if they found him guilty of breaking the law requiring sentencing, would they consider remanding him to a Woman's Institution???.....it would be fitting, ya know!

What part this was hidden from Congress and apparently even presidents of branches of the Federal Reserve do you not understand? If anyone requires sentencing, it's Ben S. Bernanke . But somehow, I doubt anyone at all will get sentenced.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

What part this was hidden from Congress and apparently even presidents of branches of the Federal Reserve do you not understand? If anyone requires sentencing, it's Ben S. Bernanke . But somehow, I doubt anyone at all will get sentenced.

I agree that Bernanke should take a big hit.

I firmly believe though that he should not be taking it alone.

Ben Bernanke apparently wants four more years as Federal Reserve Chairman. At least that's a reasonable conclusion after Mr. Bernanke all but submitted his job application to Barack Obama yesterday by endorsing the Democratic version of fiscal "stimulus."

While the Fed chief said any stimulus should be "well targeted," even a general endorsement amounts to a political green light. Mr. Bernanke certainly knows that Mr. Obama and Democrats on Capitol Hill are talking about some $300 billion in new "stimulus" spending, while President Bush and Republicans are resisting.

*


But, if I get you right though, it is your personal belief then that the political policies & posturing of a complicit Presidency has nothing to do with the way the Fed acted?



If so, I strongly disagree.

I think The Fed acted in concert with a more than eager Obama Administration from the get go-----prior to taking office to present, & it was at this President's own signals did those loan guarantees go out....like a bit of padding for the enormous 2012 political contributions this Presidential Administration expects to reap for the wink & nod.

Open thine eyes, & then you shall see!

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

...like a bit of padding for the enormous 2012 political contributions this Presidential Administration expects to reap for the wink & nod.

What are you talking about now? The big banks are already contributing against Obama. Anyway, when President Bush, yes..Bush..not Obama, bailed out these banks, this was not what he had in mind. Obama did do 787 billion in bailouts for the auto industry, etc, but that was paltry compared to what the Fed did on its own. huh? In Doyle's books, Sherlock Holmes was also a cokehead...just sayin' (Yes, I know Obama was, too and so was Bush. I wonder why the country is such a mess...) Nice conspiracy theory, though.

Occupy DC Targets high-dollar Democratic fundraiser:

Originally posted by Occupy DC:

ACTION Alert - Occupy DCCC: Let no party remain unaccountable to the people
Posted on November 30th, 2011
What - Occupy DCCC
When - 5 PM, Thursday, December 1
Where - Gathering at McPherson Square, marching to 727 15th St NW

On the two-month anniversary of Occupy DC representing the voices and interests of the 99%, we will march on a Democratic Party fundraiser charging $5,000-$75,000 per dinner. This elitist event is indicative of how the Democrats represent a major part of our government's failure to represent 99% of its citizenry. The party is part and parcel of a government in which about half of congressional members and most major presidential candidates are 1%ers -- a government of the 1%, by the 1% and for the 1%. Because no party is representing the 99%, and because money should never equal speech, we are marching on a fundraiser for the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.

Between 2009 and 2011, Democrats controlled both houses of Congress and the White House. In that time, unemployment reached its highest level since the Great Depression. The big banks that crashed the global economy were not broken up, and are still "too big to fail." Taxes on the extremely wealthy stayed low. Health care and financial reform were deeply flawed, handicapped by lobbyist influence. Promises to take action on climate change, immigration reform, and anti-worker labor laws were forgotten. Wars expanded and dragged on. Banks got bailed out, while crushing debt burdens on American households have still not been relieved. Now, 15 Senate Democrats have voted against the Udall Amendment to the 2012 National Defense Authorization Act -- essentially voting to dissolve habeas corpus in this country. It has become increasingly clear that the Democratic Party is fundamentally compromised by its reliance on corporate funding.

The DCCC is a vehicle for the 1 percent's influence in the Democratic Party and in America as a whole. It has received nearly $4 million in donations from the financial industry already this election cycle. Rep. Steve Israel, the chair of the committee and its top fundraiser, has received more support from the financial sector than from any other source, and his top donor is the war-machine producing defense contractor Northrop Grumman. The minimum donation for the event on Thursday is $5,000 and the maximum is $75,000 -- when candidates are getting such lavish donations from wealthy individuals and corporate-sponsored political action committees, how can we expect them to attend to the needs of the 99 percent?

We will only attain true democracy in this country when our government represents not the American dollar, but the American people. We will always stand against pay-to-play politics and legalized bribery in government.

I read what you re-posted, Sang… And laughed till I cried. Of course, we both know the only kind of government that would "cure" all these ills! All together now: [blank]. (Hint: Rhymes with "narcs-ism"… )
But —if that option seems unsupportable— why not reconsider the basic plan of America's founders? We've some pretty good ideas about where it went wrong, don't we?

And here they are.



"You are the people and we're pissed off!"

I guess this means Van Jones can't hijack the movement for democrat politicians.

Unlike what happen some other movement....Hot Chocolate Party...no, that's not it...damn was the name of those folks again?

D&D needs to have a meet-up sometime in the future.

Just think of all the interesting quibbles that we could have in person; Sang vs SF on OWS; Bantay vs the rest of us on ID and Evolution; Mr. Howie and his outdated views vs us Younger Chaps; etc.

It would be awesome.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

D&D needs to have a meet-up sometime in the future.

Just think of all the interesting quibbles that we could have in person; Sang vs SF on OWS; Bantay vs the rest of us on ID and Evolution; Mr. Howie and his outdated views vs us Younger Chaps; etc.

It would be awesome.

I agree,,,,,,,,under one lil teensie-weensie condition. We are all able to bring our handgun of choice (fully loaded of course), & those that don't subscribe to the 2nd Amendment are completely free to attend unarmed if they wish.

How 'bout it 'Coon.....into a par-tay?

Where would you hold it Dawg, bein' it was your brain chile?

Pssssst.....please make it a right to carry state...I can't use another blot on my record for carryin'

Yes it would be awesome and would be greatly relished by the fact that when it comes to the ex-Colonies nothing is dated, etc, etc. Have spoken at many a rally and "do" so a bunch of young uncle Sams would be a relaxing interlude! I would bring a sweeping brush to sweep away what's left after you shoot yourselves.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Where would you hold it Dawg, bein' it was your brain chile?

Iceland of course.
It's the midway point b/w the US and Europe and the UK.

You'd have to speak to the Icelandians about our Right to Bear Arms.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Have spoken at many a rally and "do" so a bunch of young uncle Sams would be a relaxing interlude! I would bring a sweeping brush to sweep away what's left after you shoot yourselves

Knowing your tendencies, you'd probably stroll into Iceland as so.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Let's see..what to do. Dismantle the Fed. Break Bank of America, Citi, Goldman, JPMorgan Chase into at least 10 smaller banks each. Fuck it, make it 50 and not allow them to operate across state lines :wrecking ball:

Don't forget to ban over-the-counter derivatives, ban credit default swaps, end the drug war, end the military industrial complex, revoke personhood to corporations and most important of all, reverse the citizens united verdict, plus possibly better yet only allow public funds to run campaigns.

The ruling class is not going to voluntarily concede a micrometer in any of this. Until you see even one of these things change, the status quo is business as usual on the path to collapse.

Oh that Iceland? I thought you meant the national chain of frozen food shops! ( )Like the OO they're everywhere. (Not too be too sidetracked, England is a growth area for the OO and the US too, ha, ha). Anyway the largest gathering I spoke to apart from having been on the radio twice so that was a mass audience, was around 2,000 in a park at a town near to here. So meeeting with some young doodle-dandies is a light lunch. Just a pity there's a 3,000 gap to fill before the privilege would be granted to meet the man in person.

ps. You will not edear Southern laddie that I carefully avoided using the prefix for the doodle-dandies. I do try to avoid being controversial.......

Originally posted by rjhowie:

You will not edear Southern laddie that I carefully avoided using the prefix for the doodle-dandies. I do try to avoid being controversial.......

I don't mind being called a Yankee, or Yank for short. Matter in fact, I'd prefer the prefix, being I love sports, & the New York Yankees are the most successful Professional Sports Franchise on the Planet bar none! That coupled with being born & raised in NYC myself, I love that town & the Yanks!

So, rj nothing, & I say nothing, could ever be considered derogatory to me if anyone called me a Yank, or a Yankee.




I'd wear it with pride!

Contrary to popular belief, many Americans are proud of the nickname Yank, that is of course if you hail from north of the Mason Dixon Line.

Things can get none to pretty if you accidentally call a good ole boy a yank.

Kevlar becomes the preferred form of dress!

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Matter in fact, I'd prefer the prefix, being I love sports, & the New York Yankees are the most successful Professional Sports Franchise on the Planet bar none!

That depends on how you measure it. If you mean viewership and maybe even finances, possibly. But if you mean by winning, maybe not. One thing I find a little of about the Scottish Premier League is that every since year its either the Celtic or the Rangers (who look to take this year) and I'm sure Howie can tell you the Celtic were the only British team to ever win the European Cup, unlike the Rangers. The Rangers did win more league championships than the Celtic by spontaneously donning orange sash things thus blinding the Celtic with their horrid sense of fashion and committing other egregious fouls.

I saw that the list of British colonies listed Weihai as well as Hong Kong as British colonies in China. Weihai is strategically positioned in the Bohai sea, on the opposite side of Port Arthur, and today mostly a South Korean colony (it is a short boat trip from Seoul), but as Chinese colonies go this one was fairly benevolent, a military (naval) base. It's a sleepy little town the size of Glasgow.

To my knowledge the US didn't partake in the British-enforced opium trade of the East India Company, but China was part of the US colonial past, like in Tianjin.

Tianjin would be a nice place to to have a D&D meet (Iceland would not be so bad either). The World Economic Forum meets there every other year, so we could be there in the off-year.

Originally posted by jax:

To my knowledge the US didn't partake in the British-enforced opium trade of the East India Company

Not surprising, since opium is so popular here.

Yeah, yeah, nice try string about the little stuff. Considering we have the largest suburban rail system outside London. Not bad for a "wee town" I reckon.

And so right there Sanguinemon about the lot from that pit in the East End with their horrid fashion sense in the footie world. It was the right place to build their stadium, downmarket and with social problems. Being blinkered due to their tradition they get dazzled quite easily. I can remember an acquaintance of mine who was a rabid Celtic fan saying with a smirk that he hoped we would all get wet on the 12th of July parade. So I smiled back and said that we all got wet crossing the Boyne and still gave them a hammering. His associates fell about laughing but he couldn't follow that one up!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

ps. You will not edear Southern laddie that I carefully avoided using the prefix for the doodle-dandies. I do try to avoid being controversial.......

Much appreciated Mr. Howie!

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

I don't mind being called a Yankee, or Yank for short.

In truth, when I was in Europe, I didn't mind being called that. In general, they didn't know about the Mason-Dixon divide, so it was understandable.
But I did tell most of the people that I met that those of us with those unique accents (their words, not mine) do tend to not like being referred to as Yanks. I told them I preferred "American" as to "Yank".

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Matter in fact, I'd prefer the prefix, being I love sports, & the New York Yankees are the most successful Professional Sports Franchise on the Planet bar none!

If you mean being money-whores, yes this is true.However, this lot are pretty damn successful themselves!



But for the MLB, these are my people!

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Contrary to popular belief, many Americans are proud of the nickname Yank, that is of course if you hail from north of the Mason Dixon Line.

Things can get none to pretty if you accidentally call a good ole boy a yank.

Kevlar becomes the preferred form of dress!

Exactly!

It is terrible to be called after a sports franchise that buys wins in a sport league where juicing up is a strategy.

Originally posted by xyzoneon:

It is terrible to be called after a sports franchise that buys wins in a sport league where juicing up is a strategy.

Not as bad as a sport where a draw after days of play which was equivalent to watching grass grow, or level scores after 90 minutes of ho-hum play are acceptable.

Only girliemen & ladyboys accept that flaccid an outcome.

Only cowards end play before a victory is secured.





I think I'll hijack this thread back on topic.



.......... .......... .......... .......... .......... ..........

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Not as bad as a sport where a draw after days of play which was equivalent to watching grass grow, or level scores after 90 minutes of ho-hum play are acceptable.

To the States or any one of them, or any city of the States, Resist much, obey little, Once unquestioning obedience, once fully enslaved, Once fully enslaved. no nation, state, city of this earth, ever afterward resumes it's liberty. -------->Its what your passionate about... Still feel the same?

Originally posted by Virusboy:

Still feel the same?

Yep....but you're silly!

This guy that gives the directions to the vets a wee bit in makes more sense then you spankey!

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Yep....but you're silly!

k lets bring up something important.

Originally posted by Virusboy:

Resist much, obey little, Once unquestioning obedience, once fully enslaved, Once fully enslaved.

yea your lost.

Originally posted by Virusboy:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Yep....but you're silly!

k lets bring up something important.

Originally posted by Virusboy:

Resist much, obey little, Once unquestioning obedience, once fully enslaved, Once fully enslaved.

yea your lost.

All it shows me is that you seem to like to cut & paste...what does Walt Whitman's quote (that I chose as my passion) pertaining to States Rights have to do with the price of a pound of gummy bears in India to you?

I know what it means, but do you---& if you think you do, please expand upon your self-perceived prowess pertaining to the verse.

Maybe you are slowly tipping into a police state ever so slowly? I'd be wary of asking a policeman there the time.....

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Maybe you are slowly tipping into a police state ever so slowly?

The Patriot Act backs you up on this 100%.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Maybe you are slowly tipping into a police state ever so slowly? I'd be wary of asking a policeman there the time.....

Slowly? Tipping? None of the crap that happened lately is new.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Maybe you are slowly tipping into a police state ever so slowly?

The Patriot Act backs you up on this 100%.

A fine tradition since 1798

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

The Patriot Act backs you up on this 100%.

Aye. Despite the OWS and the TP, the writing might be on the wall already.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

This guy that gives the directions to the vets a wee bit in makes more sense then you spankey!

The driver's very helpful too! They replaced stop lights in some of less traveled roads with road-abouts and we wind up slowing way down to make the circle. He shows you can just dive through the damned things The Welsh is very clear. Make a right at the round about and there's pink duplex that you can't miss and make a right

There's more fantastic news from the banks.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-12-07/jpmorgan-has-about-100-billion-of-notional-giips-derivatives.html

Dec. 7 (Bloomberg) -- JPMorgan Chase & Co., the biggest derivatives dealer among U.S. banks, has bought and sold notional credit derivatives on about $100 billion of sovereign and non-sovereign debt in the five troubled European nations, Chief Executive Officer Jamie Dimon said today.

The bank had about $13.9 billion of mark-to-market derivative exposure as of Nov. 17, offset by $6.3 billion of collateral, Dimon said at an investor conference in New York. JPMorgan would likely have a direct loss of about $3 billion if a “disaster” occurred in the region’s debt crisis, he said.

Awesome. So we bailed out the banks (sort of repayed with securities you can wipe your ass with) , the Fed "loans" them trillions of dollars and they continued the same risky behavior that got them to the point of needing the bailouts in the first place? Now JP Morgan Chase, one of the nation's largest banks stands to lose 3 billion.

People say the OWS are protesting the wrong people, that they should be protesting the government. No. These banks need protesting because they're continuing to the country at risk. Let's what bombshells Bank of America, Citi, and Well Fargo will drop now...

Fanfaron, go put on a dunce cap and stand in the corner if you still think it was the CRA that caused the depression.

Oh, good... Ally Financial has been foreclosing on possibly thousands of properties that it didn't even hold the mortgage to. It's still mostly owned by the US government, evidently unable to pay back its bailout even with toilet paper securities.

(Attorney General) Coakley’s lawsuit also named Bank of America Corp., JPMorgan Chase & Co., Citigroup Inc. and Wells Fargo & Co.

The case is Commonwealth of Massachusetts v. Bank of America NA, 11-4363, Suffolk County Superior Court (Boston)

As a Brit it's not my place to tell Americans how you should run your country, but if I was American, I'd want to see Hank Paulson in prison. Have a look at this,

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...alism-20111201

It is really sad thedawgfan and others that a country where so many people do believe in rights, freedoms, etc are having them chipped away ever so much bit by bit. The Patriot Act is a telling signal the way things are going. To be fair, it is happening elsewhere too but I think that more and more folk over the pond are realising that they have been fooled by those in the corporate towers pulling the strings to suit? When I watched a man on tv being interviewed amongst a series of people by a tv reporter (from outside the US) saying that he was sick of the way the country has been manipulated by the corporate greed power behind the political scenses. I thought to myself, "at last, at last". If ever a people were sorely done to and conned it is the American one.

its is why rj, that OWS, and the people behind it, seek to end our gov't

Originally posted by jo15d:

As a Brit it's not my place to tell Americans how you should run your country, but if I was American, I'd want to see Hank Paulson in prison. Have a look at this,

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...alism-20111201

Looks like a dead link, but yes, anyone that cares to look knows Paulson is a full fledged criminal, without inference, exaggeration or conjecture. He literally abetted massive insider trading and got away with it due to his position.

This was never the shocking part in recent events to me since all one has to do is look back at the S&L "scandal" all the way back to the Reagan administration, of which 138 of its officials were convicted, indicted or investigated for high crime, including the attorney general.

The only mildly surprising thing to me is how a few people would insist on mocking the public speaking out against such things (OWS), or giggle like idiots by the end of the S&L circus believing it was an isolated incident and not a mere event that slipped through the cracks of secrecy in the washington corporate lifestyle. The only thing different now from then is the steady decline of numbers of people that can delude themselves in comfort from that reality, and the fact that now they're not even investigated for show. Now they can just steal in plain sight because they rewrote the rules that way.

An intellectual angle…

How exquisitely gracious to have you here benining us with intellectual wisdom. Unconciously gracious of one to add depth to the otherwise routine divergences that are the staple. A pleasant and intriguing touch in the link?

Were you perhaps accepting the adjective "benighted"…, rj? (It fits!) But here's an idea that might not occur to you: Read the piece, and then decide if you agree with it and why. (You probably will — if someone you follow says you should; the Pope hasn't mentioned it yet, so there's no help there!) But I'll give you a little bit, so you don't have to exert a finger:

The Supreme Court’s several-pronged attack on the regulation of spending, selling, and buying reinforces one of the most persistent and pernicious intellectual mistakes of the time, one that we share with the Lochner era: the idea that markets are natural phenomena, arising from their own organic principles and free human action, while politics and lawmaking are artificial interferences with this natural activity. In fact, as sophisticated economists, lawyers, and others have always understood, markets are the products of law, which defines and enforces the ownership and exchanges that set the market in motion. A laissez-faire market arises from one kind of law, a more social-democratic market from another. […] It is obscurantist to suggest that some version of the laissez-faire market is a natural baseline, and anything that departs from it needs special justification. That is the spirit of the new cases. Taken to their limit, they would set aside the intellectual and political gains of decades of struggle in the twentieth century: the New Deal recognition that the country must take responsibility for shaping its own economy, and the decision to remove the old American romance with economic libertarianism from constitutional judging. It is the revival of that bad romance that makes the memory of Lochner relevant now.

Comment, rj?

Originally posted by OakdaleFTL:

A laissez-faire market arises from one kind of law, a more social-democratic market from another.

Of course, laissez-faire as an economic system had been discredited more than a century ago. I definitely understand the Supreme Courts decisions, as they have to jibe with the what the Constitution explicately says, not on economic and social realities. The reality is that deregulated banks were completely out of control and wrecked the global economy and had disastrous consequences on the lives of everyday citizens. I was reading about some of the consequences yesterday:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16037798

The article goes on $300+ water bills until gets to what exactly happened and why an increasing number of Birmingham, Alabama residents no longer have running water.

Corruption scandal
The facility, which has been under construction since 1996, was meant to cost about $300m.

But the bill soared to $3.1bn after construction problems and a series of bond and derivatives deals that went sour in the financial meltdown of 2008.

Continue reading the main story

Investment bank JP Morgan Securities and two of its former directors have been fined for offering bribes to Jefferson County workers and politicians to win business financing the sewer upgrade.

Yup, corruption and more what I was saying about derivatives that had been previously illegal.

....

When he was Republican mayor of Birmingham's neighbouring city of Hoover, (county manager) Mr Petelos recalls attending a presentation by a Wall Street bank about the same kind of bonds that would later prove to be the downfall of Jefferson County.

He says: "I turned to my finance director and said, 'did you understand that?' He said, 'no I didn't'. So I said, 'we had better not buy it then'."

Perhaps if Jefferson County's previous commissioners had made the same decision, some of their poorest residents would not be facing daily life without basic sanitation and running water.

Because of corruption and derivatives (once again, illegal before the Clinton/Bush deregulation) parts of the US are functionally falling to a par with with some of the poorest parts of the third world. An intellectual angle is fine, but don't get too light headed from thin air at the top of the ivory tower.

In other news, a UBS private banker was caught selling illegal investment vehicles to a "megaclient" Start with the deregulation and the bankers think they can do anything they want.

Does anyone still question why OWS still targets the banks?

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Does anyone still question why OWS still targets the banks?

Is this rehtorical?

Ah yes the Pope. There could never ever be any hypocrisy from that quarter? Very clever there OakdaleFTL.

Originally posted by Virusboy:

its is why rj, that OWS, and the people behind it, seek to end our gov't

Actually they want to restore 'Government of the people, for the people, and by the people'. Your democracy has been stolen by banks, as it has here in the UK and several other countries.

Your a bit at the cow's tail with being stolen by the banks as I have been sdaying that here for long enough. Nice you have caught up. And yes there have been problems with some banks here and elsewhere but it is one Hell of a lot worse in America. It has no Welfare State so you are stuffed. At one time there was aslightly different way of things in the US although always with the Corporate in the background (right since the first tea nales dumped at Boston) but nowadays it is more in your face than previous times. That is what morre and more Americans have come to realise. The reason being that tens of millions are now effected but they didn't bother much before as it didn't effect the mainstream of society as it does now.