Portugal -Belfrager I have a couple of spare rooms!

Things seem to be rather trying right now in struggling wee Portugal in all ways and is it right as a news report states that employment is 20%?! Heavens it's getting critical.

oh dear, you and Belfrager? This will end up like the odd couple...

They may have a few things in common, but threads directed to a forum member are not appreciated in this forum, traditionally they are closed or deleted. I'll leave this one open, for now.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

as a news report states that employment is 20%?!

Hope it raises, Man wasn't made for working, that's for the Untermensch that seems to enjoy it. Some obscure reason related with what they call the "Protestant working ethos", go figure that...
For some reason the Portuguese word for work it's Trabalho and it comes from the Latin Trepallium which is a not too much comfortable instrument of torture.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Belfrager I have a couple of spare rooms!

Very good, I suggest you using one for a Casino and the other for a Brothel. Can give you advice on both.


There is a house in Glasgow
They call the Rising Sun
And it's been the ruin of many a poor boy
And God I know I'm one

Edited: ahhh, now I notice that you said employment is 20%, not unemployment. That's good news

Okay smarty, it was meant to be unemployment (!). But hey the Protestant work ethic would be lost in Portugal wouldn't it? Maybe part of the prob perhaps? Just think being here with all my regalia and ritual books lying about? Now what a wonderful find for a red socks man eh?!

Very kind of you there jax (Christmas has come early!). I welcome people here whatever the background and I am sure my Portugese opposite number would be fascinated and be extremely gushing on his return home from his experience with this son of the Reformation. I would even stop my community work with gamblers and naughty women to accomodate the man even if he said damn it!

Originally posted by Belfrager:

There is a house in Glasgow
They call the Rising Sun
And it's been the ruin of many a poor boy
And God I know I'm one

How can you ruin your life in a house of sin and ill repute in Glasgow, though? Drinking too many girlish "Irn" sodas that taste like bubblegum?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

red socks man eh?!

Still not sure why you call Popes red socks, but apparently he is a Red Sox fan...

http://callofthegreenmonster.typepad.com/call_of_the_green_monster/2005/05/red_sox_announc.html

The Red Sox were delighted to announce yesterday that the newly elected Pope, Benedict XVI, will travel to Fenway Park in his one of his initial pilgrimages from the Vatican in order to attend a Red Sox-Yankees game and throw out the ceremonial first pitch. “Although his favorite team is the Padres,” said Larry Lucchino, “I’m told His Holiness is a big Red Sox fan.”

Edit..OK figured out the red socks thing:

http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2011/02/my-red-socks.html

Evidently RC Cardinals were red socks, although Popes actually were white socks

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

How can you ruin your life in a house of sin and ill repute in Glasgow, though? Drinking too many girlish "Irn" sodas that taste like bubblegum?

You are absolutely right, it's an impossibility. Therefore my remark, I was just not expecting that signs of intelligent life comes from you.
My fault.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Still not sure why you call Popes red socks, but apparently he is a Red Sox fan...

Because our train lover, rjhowie, is an ignorant as all the protestants are. Nothing more but the attempt of low bourgeois to have political influence.
But roots come to surface... all the time. Water and vinegar never mix.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

and I am sure my Portugese opposite number would be fascinated and be extremely gushing on his return home from his experience with this son of the Reformation.

Do you want me to live with you?? everyone has already understood your fascination for me*, but I'm sure that you'll find someone fitted to you... Not me, orangist peasant.

* Strangely, Jaybro didn't appeared yet... And I'm collecting a beautiful material regarding the Americans...

Jaybro might trump all of us. RJ and I are different branches of Protestant, and Belfrager is Roman Catholic-- but that makes a poor showing when a guy who thinks he's God shows up, don'cha think?

Ah, but the low low bourgeois everywhere has been manipulated by the Papal lot for centuries! Historically poor countries (throw in Portugal and Spain with them ) have all those beautiful churches having drained the peasantry financially to build them. And anyway the "orangeists" (that betrays ignorance) incude peers of the Realm (Lords to the not knowing such as your goodself).

Here was me concerned about the dire straits your country is in. Everyyjomh to be cut drastically, inept politicians, soaring unemployment and social deprivation looming due to mismanagement and I offer from the goodness of my generous heart a respite. Mind you I can understand you being miffed about not getting to practise the gambling or the naughy "wummin" but such are the high ideals of men of Reformation principle. When it all falls to bits over there you will have missed the chance of a break. I think you had better have Christmas early as you might not be able to afford it? Maybe time for a dictator again?!

Ha, ha, in comes Sanguinemon to help defend the unappriecative Iberian! When it comes to softies that is hilarious coming from the ex-Colonies! A right bunch of big girls blouses. They are so frightened of being attacked they set up missiles further and further away from them. Scaredy cats is insulting pets. And when they do get into a war they always end up having made a hash of it.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

And when they do get into a war they always end up having made a hash of it.

I recall one war the Brits made a total hash of. It lasted for 8 years against a ragtag, ill equipped group of colonists and they still couldn't win. Then in 1812 there was another war against the fledgling nation and once again the Brits were sent running back across the ocean with their tails between their legs.

A rather juvenile description I reckon. We were so far from home - there was I would remind quite a bit of water which took ages to cross. And your new wonderful lot tried to invade British fiedom in Canada and what happened? So cock-sure of yourselves but your lotYou lot had to run with your tail between your legs. Didn't try that one again! And many of those Canadians who routed you so clearly had been Americans forced out earlier. Then debacles in other places like the Battle of The Bulge where Hitler rightly attacked the weakest lot and had them running like chickens with no heads. We were the leading lot in rescuing you. And of course some messes in Korea and the daddy of them all in S. Vietnam where you were mifed because guerillas wouldn't fight in routine war situs to suit you. Half a million men and they ran you ragged. Yet when we had Commie rebellions in the old Malaya and in kenya we sorted them out by fighting them like jungle warriors. Let's not forget Somalia where the Marines went in gung-hoing with the cameras rolling and they got bogged down. They didn't leave so hey-ho-ing?!

From that Revolution controlled by your own early Corporates they have ran the damn place ever since and the mess has built up into an internal debacle. Considering it was the cumfy who created and led the Revolution they have ran the place ever since with your own form of aristocracy and for the benfit of themselves. Such great principled claims at your revolt but tell that to the legions of poor, the red inidans cheated and ethnic cleansed, the blacks and so on. I have to laugh at the fight being about taxes and here you are in 2011 still grabling about the same thing - taxes! When an old friend of mine came over from California (nearly bankrupt State) having lived there for over 30 years I couldn't believe the local taxes she had to pay compared to myself! and even when your revolutionaries in this wonderful new order where yakking in Philadelphia you were even considering a Royal from Europe as a Head of State! Talk about setting yourselves up?! It's like a coconut throwing stall at a carnival...so easy! When you look at how it has evolved and the silly political system everything has went downhill since days of the musket and Minutemen.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

From that Revolution controlled by your own early Corporates they have ran the damn place ever since and the mess has built up into an internal debacle

By profession, many of the early leaders were planters. Others, such as Ben Franklin were intellectuals. Yes, the Brits were fare from home, but Americans had trouble even purchasing basic supplies such as food and shoes and America was in the midst of a small pox epidemic that claimed 130,000 lives, so don't give those excuses. Your problem was the tactics. The Red Coats tried to use Napoleonic style warfare, lining in a straight on the battlefield. Than there was the use of redcoats themselves. Bright red in the fields and forests? They might as well hung signs around their necks saying "Shoot me."

Originally posted by rjhowie:

you were even considering a Royal from Europe as a Head of State!

And yet you're proud of Dutch nobleman as king? What matters is what actually happened, not what some daft people were considering. If you really wanted a Protestant king, was there not a British person qualified?

Silly, silly stuff. Those uniforms were the standard fare of the time. Your pals at the time the French (probably something else Yanks don't know) were your allies and helped. They wore nice blue uniforms but you don't moan about that one! And wanting a Royal to be Head of State- ha, ha. Heavens, how limited what passes for education if the ex-Colonies is! Why do they spend money on education over there? The average person has no idea of the outside world apasrt from the controlled media fiunancianced by those Corporates who have been patronisngly brainwashing generations on patriotism and the flag. You lot were fighting on your own territory and how hard was it for us re supplies with 3,000 miles added on. Just in case you didn'ty know twas the days of the sailijng ship! Even those that had enough of the hypocrisy and wanted to leave the corrupt money-power machine half way through the 19th century weren't going to be allowed to. And those Americans who were the third who supported Britain were often dealt a bad hand in the new, democratic land of the free hence many off to the north losing everything. It was all about money in America and has been ever since.

And I would also remind that only a third of the Colonies actually bothered to support the War of Independence. But like all revolutions if you have the right people in the right places and in this instance, fighting on home ground against a force seperated from home by an ocean (aided by French) , kind of problematic. Even negroes wanted to fight with the British Crown as they reckoned they would in the long run be better off. How right that one proved taking so long to join the world of abolishing slavery! Another goodly reason why the new land of the free didn't supply their navy for that one - like us. And when you thinking you were God Almighty, tried to invade British territory (Canada) against the redcoats, you had to scamper with some speed against them. At no time did the British have any intention of spreading the Colonies beyond the mountains unlike you lot who then proceeded to raise corruption with the Indians to new heights. Stealing land, killing, cheating and ethnic cleansing them. And even today some have been fighting for rights for over 60 years. So much for a Constitution for the "people". Small wonder it has had to be altered so often. The history of two centuries of the new democracy (!) has been littered with citizens fighting for the rights enshrined in that bit of Constitution paper. Only emphasises who really controls the place doesn't it? Those 200 years are littered with examples of misuse of power, money, corruption, civic greed. Aye, so much for the new kind of society. It was all a sham.

So in essence you changed one set of a ruling class with the ruling money (planters weren't peasant farmers nor the importing tea merchants amongst others) and cumfy class of your own and somehow that was better? Considering it has been the fnancial barons who have ran the place since your Revolution and the the truth coming to light only now kind of shows some national dumbness I reckon (!). America has never been a full democracy and it has been a long time coming since 1776 for it to sink in. You only have to wave a flag and grit your teeth and the brainwashed will accept anything. Goodness you did manage something. You beat Dr Goebells prematurely and in braining and he was an expert.

Sham is a corteous and brief summation!

Maybe one day Belfrager I might visit your wee place and get a ride on those facinating tramcars that go up and down those cramped wee hilly streets of part of Lisbon.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

So cock-sure of yourselves but your lotYou lot had to run with your tail between your legs. Didn't try that one again! And many of those Canadians who routed you so clearly had been Americans forced out earlier.

That's historically inaccurate. The final battle of that war was won by the US forces who, despite being well outnumbered, defeated the attacking British force who then retreated....with tails between legs?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Yet when we had Commie rebellions in the old Malaya and in kenya we sorted them out by fighting them like jungle warriors.

Historically incorrect. The war in Malaya was a much smaller affair than Korea or Vietnam and not comparable.

In Kenya, we simply rounded masses up into concentration camps, executed thousands and committed atrocities that would make Hitler blush. Jungle warriors? Don't think so....

Originally posted by rjhowie:

It was all about money in America and has been ever since.

Same applies to the British Empire. Or did you miss out on history?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

At no time did the British have any intention of spreading the Colonies beyond the mountains unlike you lot who then proceeded to raise corruption with the Indians to new heights.

I'm sure they wanted to. And would have. But the French were there. Did you not know that? I'm quite sure, otherwise, and with time, we would have spread like locusts across the entire continent. Just like everywhere else we went.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Stealing land, killing, cheating and ethnic cleansing them.

I refer you to the British rule in Kenya, seeing as you've mentioned it already.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Sham is a corteous and brief summation!

Hypocritical is also a courteous and brief summary of your post. But I think we should add the words 'poorly informed' and highly inaccurate' too.

Originally posted by Muttsfan:

oh dear, you and Belfrager? This will end up like the odd couple...

It's settled then. Belfrager will move in with Howie and we'll set up cameras and it will be (sur)reality show. We'll make a fortune!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Those uniforms were the standard fare of the time.

Standard fare indeed. And standard tactics, That's part of why you lost to an Army that even General George Washington said:

Originally posted by George Washington:

If the army does not get help soon, in all likelihood it will disband

That was in Valley Forge, when the army as scarce supplies, death from cold and disease was rampant and there were desertions in droves. That's not mention the starvation. There was often not even enough ammunition to go hunting for food. And yet, the Americans were still able to pull it together and defeat the greatest military power in the world at the time. Yes, the British faced a logistics problem, but they could still send a steady stream of supplies via ships and thus remained better equipped (and fed) than the Americans. So again, don't give me you excuses.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Another goodly reason why the new land of the free didn't supply their navy for that one - like us.

Now who was it that defeated the Barbary pirates and who paid tribute? Hrmmm...lemmee think....oh yes I remember now Now why was that...oh yes, because the Americans built a fine Navy.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

At no time did the British have any intention of spreading the Colonies beyond the mountains

I'm hardly anti-British, but this seems like more hyprocrisy as the map I posted in the OWS thread shows. Beyond the Appalachian mountains was land owned by the French (then the Spanish, then French again ) anyway, America bought that fair and square, unlike what Britain did to India and all those other places. We only meant to purchase New Orleans, but France gave us the whole lot in part so they wouldn't have to defend it against the British.

Most of the rest was taken from Mexico. Mexico was pissed that America annexed Texas at its request after it won it's Independence. So they sent a 2000 man cavalry against a 70 man American patrol and so they started the war. After the war, Mexico ceded its nominally protected frontier lands as part of it the peace treaty. That was land with only very loose ties to the rest of Mexico and likely would broken away anyway. So, no, we didn't steal Mexican land. But, no, it wasn't right to force American Indians off their land by any stretch of the imagination.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Britain intended to make a vast push westward at all. That Americans did this in such a vast way themselves and destroy and cheat all the Indians west of the range speaks for itself sadly. And the Mexicans hardly filled everything west of the Appalachians so they were really a southern problem and a passing one. But as I said it was a case of one rulling class being replaced by another ruling class and for 200 years Americans for all the high sounding phrases and Constitution have had to go to Courts for rights and freedoms.

As for Belfrager, I think you lot would get as much of a surprise as he would. Being like a diamond with many sides he would find a sojourn with the son of the Reformation quite a more surprising thing as I probably would with him!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

There is no evidence whatsoever that Britain intended to make a vast push westward at all.

That's because the French were there blocking the way. As for evidence....I refer you to Africa, Australia, New Zealand, India etc etc etc. The British expanded everywhere that they were able to do so, at a profit.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

That Americans did this in such a vast way themselves and destroy and cheat all the Indians west of the range speaks for itself sadly.

That was a sad chapter in American history, but your hypocrisy speaks for itself yet again. The population of Ireland halved twice under British rule, first from Oliver Cromwell's invasion and than the "Famine" (when Ireland was "enjoying" record food exports to Britain)

Originally posted by mexile:

That's because the French were there blocking the way.

To helped clarify it a bit more for Howie, it would have been completely daft for Britain to have risked war with France over what was mostly wilderness even in the days of land grabs and empire building by the European powers.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

But as I said it was a case of one rulling class being replaced by another ruling class and for 200 years Americans for all the high sounding phrases and Constitution have had to go to Courts for rights and freedoms.

Of course we have problems. We have people protesting in the streets and occupying parks and other public spaces over the endemic corruption in our political system. You'll find little argument from me on that. However, it's amazing how you belittle our Constitution. No, it isn't perfect and has taken its share of abuse over the past couple centuries. It also enshrines limits to government power and guarantees the rights of the citizens.

Sanguinemoon I think that even accepting that the "Founding Fathers" were completely genuine in what was written in the Constitution it is that Americans harp on about it as if some kind of Holy Grail and for the world outside (presumptious again of them!). The reason I say this is that for all it's well constructed phraseology and high claims the internal history of the new style democracy for the world (groan) is contradicted massively and stretches over more than two whole centuries. It isn't a case of trifling matters we can dismiss as not important. What happened to the Americans who lost at the Revolution the Indians the negroes runs into millions of people. The massive corruption especially during the 19th century through the rail bosses at expansion West then into the 20th where workers were hounded during general strikes by private armies of stick carrying thugs employed by bosses. Often aided by the police and no respite there.

It was one great contradiction followed by another. Widespread corruption of towns and cities in the 1920's and the suffering of the people who had to live in that atmosphere and often left to fend for themselves or be ill-served by a legal system that was just a tool. The legal systtem is still a farce andexpensive to the pooint of going into the Law as if with a microscope. Prisoners wrapped up inchains on hands and feet like some Third World dictatorship. Convicted people waiting the death penalty and it dragging on for up to 10 years?! Might as well go the whole hog and have a Gestapo to torture. So vengeanceful a system. You couldn't even depend on the police either as they were often rotten in thos days either. It is not about as I point out odd exceptions it was widespread behaviour totally devoid from what was laid down.Right up to the present day there have been numerous occasions when Americans have had to fight for rights that are enshrined in that document.

Of course there are things to be positive on such as the matter of family life, enterprise experience and ambition but the matter of Constitution and what it guarantees has been found woefully wanting by large numbers of ordinary people over the two centuries plus. We have all seen it on the screen or constantly read about such for decades and after so long the disparity between Consitutional documentation and practicality is as wide as always. It was the financial barons who ruled the rosst and still do. It is a general thing but you have found it squirmingly hard to have to accept the charge.

Well done on coming out of the closet Mr. Howie!

I had to as the country is such an enigma with it's history and the puzzle that passes for a political system. Maybe one day there will be democracy - real stuff. The USSR went so we can live on hope so I remain in the sunlight as a beacon. But hey, don't think too much of the ordinary Joe it's Socialist don't you know? ( I hear Smileyfazes fotseps coming along on that one). Well, anyway you are a republic (smiling) so the next stage is bananas. If I went back into the cupboard and came out in 10 years it will be like Africa...the same. Must look at the ex-Colonies and see if there is anything wrong with it for a change. Now that would make a tidy book?

You know Mr. Howie, when you type paragraphs like the one above, I imagine that in real life, you are very similar to this clip:

Now that cartoon extract is a jolly fine characterisation of the great American public. Nice people but like children. Thanks for reminding us.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

If I went back into the cupboard...

It was a closet, not a cupboard. And you're out now, amigo. No going back in again...

Well excuse me mexile but in Great Britain that is what we call a closet - applies to Yanks, etc. Shows how much you know smarty pants. If I had a big enough CUPBOARD, I would put all the mincy steppers in - will keep you a space. From a happy hextrosexual from non-closet land

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Shows how much you know smarty pants.

....more than you think, it appears. But you'll catch on at some stage, I imagine. Maybe....

Smarty pants?!

Things are running down hill whereabouts.

So... it seems that rjhowie's offer stands firm. Let's look at it.
Pros: whisky, whisky and more whisky. That's a strong pro, rjhowie.
Cons: All the rest. Unsupportable.

I'll wait for more offers.
Maybe an American? Come on, you have lots of space there... I'm just not sure that they let me enter the place, I refuse to sign that I will not kill the president. Well, it's not my intention to kill the gentleman, I don't have nothing against him, but you know, never say never...
Someone from Africa? That would be cool. I like Mozambique, beautiful place for eating lobsters and drinking margaritas at the sunset.
Australia? Sorry, I can't stand upside down for too long...
The middle east? Do we have anyone from the middle east? Any kind ayatollah out there willing to invite me? But I will not convert myself and I want an entire Cathedral just for me.
Anyone else? No one?
Bah... it seems that I'm already at the best place on earth.

I might offer if I had room, but this tiny single-bedroom apartment would get cramped for space rather quickly. Upside, if you lived here: Catholics and Protestants get along here a lot easier that they do in other places--- notably, RJ is an Orangeman and the conflict between Orangemen and RCs is well known. I could guess that the Chicago area, being about half RC to begin with, might be a place you might consider.

A bit of note: I belong to an Assembly of God congregation in the Western 'Burbs. The A of G is a Pentecostal denomination. We don't wear funny costumes-- in fact most of us seem to come to church on Sunday in street clothes-- but we do occasionally speak in tongues and interpretation of tongues and a few other things that certain elements here might find a bit strange. It seems we do get along with Catholics all right, though we are firmly Protestant.

The rest unsupportable Belfrager? I am indeed a broad church of a man. Have had a Jewish, RC visits amongst others but no Americans or Africans, etc, yet. There is even an RC masshouse 7 minutes walk away although my church is 3 minutes so I'd get home before you to organise the meal. A bit unfortunate that our Chicago friend is confused that because I am an Orangeman, I somehow don''t like RC's. It's their church I don't agree with but we promote civil and religious liberty - superiority for none. One thing I wouldn't do his deny his right to worship as he wants. And considering that my very much indepth community work involved both traditions, mine and his where I was held in some regard he would have no problem. Have had conversational relations both with a novice and a long standing priest and nuns along the way. Including taking two for lunch (seperately) and one was quite happy to agree with me on some issues! Goodness me I have even been known to be friendly to visiting Americans. Mind you I would keep my ritual books out the way! Belfrager would get a real surprise I muse actually.

Ah, Chicago the other Vatican city. The place where a modern Cardinal was suspended for suspected corruption by a Pope (imagination that kind of crime there?). Unfortunately that poor red socks died within 2 months (oddly) and John Paul came in and immediately stopped the investigation and the other ones too. And the chubby Chigoan Church Prince gave him a wee box with a $50,000 gift. Aye, the windy city keeps up it's traditional reputation!

Anyway, being so concerned about Belfrager if the worst happens over there he should keep his options open as an igloo ain't cumfy in the long run?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I somehow don''t like RC's. It's their church I don't agree with but we promote civil and religious liberty - superiority for none.

I think the issue is that some of statements about RC are so strong, they can be confused for bigotry against Catholics.

Well Sanguinemoon, there is nothing that cannot be strong if one wants it to be? Eveyrone has a choice of being strong or soft or not bothered about a stance. I don't have much time for Communism and it's fellow travellers but I wouldn't want them banned any more than those other few out on the other extreme. Years ago, again standing in a Local Election the Communist candidate thought he would have a go at me so I took him on and he eventually gave up while I was clapped (U still didn't win but increased the vote for my lot!). They are well trained in chatter so many would avoid getting into a discussion due to inability to cope with the Red experience. But there again they are such a tiny thing here you could get them in a taxi!

And again those that disagree with an opinion and cannot trounce the opposite person often resort to neatly changing a strong opinion into bigotry. It's like all the other names added to folk who don't accept something. I reckon that the same applies to the RC Church.

That wee arch-conservative John Paul was a reactionary and he publically stated that the Protestant Faith was "perverse" and that the Reformed ministry was not a proper one. And who was his right-hand man? None other that Ratty and surprise, surprise, he has echoed the same stance! Now that could be taken as bigotry if it suits then?! At least I missed being burned alive or boiled to death in a vat of bubbling oil. Thanks, Reformation.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

That wee arch-conservative John Paul was a reactionary and he publically stated that the Protestant Faith was "perverse" and that the Reformed ministry was not a proper one. And who was his right-hand man? None other that Ratty and surprise, surprise, he has echoed the same stance! Now that could be taken as bigotry if it suits then?! At least I missed being burned alive or boiled to death in a vat of bubbling oil. Thanks, Reformation.

Nice words, for a Bolshevist.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

At least I missed being burned alive or boiled to death in a vat of bubbling oil. Thanks, Reformation.

Are you forgetting Luther's notorious anti-semitism?

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Are you forgetting Luther's notorious anti-semitism?

Or John Knox's misogyny?

And that great atheist Stalin's persecution of Christians thedawgfan? Or Lincoln's utter hypocrisy? Or Joe Kennedy's vile hatred on Britain and especially during WW2? Better taking a thought before the stones laddie - and you too Sanguinemoon?! Our German friend Luther had much to deal with and come to terms with inckluding having been trained as a Roman preist in centuries of anti-Jewishness. Then there were the hundreds of thousands of loyal, chest beating Americans who marched proclaiming their ant-seminism. Some 2 million at one stage Congressmen, sheriffs, policemen right across the board. Ot maybe you would dismiss them as nutters. That would be an interesting stance that a nation can produce so many and in positions of authority at the movement's height!

John Knox changed this country for the better. His vision was a kirk and school in every parish which was not the modefor the red socks brigade before the Reformation. The Popish lot chained the Bible to the lectern to stop people reading it or having free will. The moral corruption of Rome was so blatant and we had around 2,500 bastard children attached to nunneries who had fathers and mothers who were nuns, bishops convorting in parties and drunken orgies. So we can thanks Knox for creating a basis for a wide education system. The great man also faced down that Papist maniser, Mary when she was Queen and rightly so.

Oh, someone could think Belfragger you are claiming your ole red socks is a Bolshevik. I mean it cannot be me as I have stated here my stances and am the last Tsarist!" On the other hand you may not be aware of either Paul or his successor's public statements on ecumenism so will in fairness grant you that. As a Church that blatantly claims it cannot be in error and must be the one true church it has an attitude similar to the Bolsheviks. Just tipped a wink to my Imperial Russian Coat of Arms picture on the wall along with General Lee, Chiang Kai-Shek, Willam 3rd. Knox, and mused on my picture of the Howie Monument (now there's a surprise? There is one, south of Glasgow as it happens). I do hope you have a pleasant Christmas dear Portugal man even if not fortunate to be here. And remember that if you are ever faced with a Damascas Road there are nearly 60,000 of my lot in your country!

ps. Interesting to see Mexile popping up in another disguise.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

And that great atheist Stalin's persecution of Christians thedawgfan?

Stalin did not persecute Christians alone.
Stalin was a psycho who persecuted the entire Russian population.
A nice try at the martyr card though. lol

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Or Lincoln's utter hypocrisy?

Your treatment of the Irish?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Or Joe Kennedy's vile hatred on Britain and especially during WW2?

Kennedy didn't matter during WWII. Again, nice try though.
What about the UK's acts of genocide during it's Empire?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Better taking a thought before the stones laddie

I have plenty more where that came from.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Just tipped a wink to my Imperial Russian Coat of Arms picture on the wall along with General Lee, Chiang Kai-Shek, Willam 3rd. Knox, and mused on my picture of the Howie Monument

Eh? Kai-Shek? Why is he one of your heros? For fighting the Chinese?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I mean it cannot be me as I have stated here my stances and am the last Tsarist!

Are you Anastacia, the surviving daughter of the Czar?
I thought you were a man...

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I do hope you have a pleasant Christmas dear Portugal man even if not fortunate to be here.

"pleasant" Christmas? oh, you mean a Holy Christmas, a Saint Christmas.. thank you rjhowie, the same for you

Originally posted by rjhowie:

And remember that if you are ever faced with a Damascas Road there are nearly 60,000 of my lot in your country!

Damascus Road? I'm not Paul of Tarsus... more Paul of Lisbon. I don't need any conversion.
60.000 Calvinists here? doing what? ah those playing golf at the Algarve. What happens with your country, don't you have golf courts anymore? ooh, I see, you live in the dark, no sun... Yes, absolutely in the dark indeed.

This could get interesting. Maybe I should set up a hot-dog stand so we in the stands can have some refreshment while watching RJ and belfrager go at it.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

This could get interesting. Maybe I should set up a hot-dog stand so we in the stands can have some refreshment while watching RJ and belfrager go at it.

Will that be the famous Chicago style hot-dogs?

Well Chiang was Chinese born and bred and very supported by Uncle Sam as it happens. As well as the Chinese he was fighting were your old haunters the Communists. When it comes to atrocities I would remind - again, that considering how you let just under a million German prisoners die in your camps in 1945 your President should have been at Nuremberg as well. Another one of those things that America likes to do in big ways and that was no different. Maybe I should give you the name of an excellent book that catalogues the facts and that Ike was party to ill treatment. Unfortunately for you considering all the wars your military-corporate dictatorship sallied into definitely beats us. And you appeal to the usual Irish-American lobby in desperation here. Of course it is common knowledge that we created potatos that only starved the Irish who were anti-Britain. How cleaver they were in the 1840's. Amazing. Just as amaxing were the masive numbers of Irish from all backgrounds who volunteered for the 1st World War. Your lot came in at the end last few months and i bet the average joe thinks you won that won too?!

As for plenty morte you should maybe review your own history which is a long and bloody one. And all that after the high sounding formation principles a wonderful guaranteeing Constitution ( ). The truth for the majority is that without big bucks it's a much different story. Massive corruption, corporates getting away with anything, ethnic cleansing, treaties based on lies, attempts to exterminate people, flying in the face of the great so-called principles, people often having to go to that other big business the legal system for the rights enshrined in the Declaration, etc, etc. And that very legal system which has people on death row for years sometimes a decade. Another farce. Torture? You are still at it with your Concentration Camp in Cuba where you refuse to leave a sovereign State because you don't like it's regime. Oh very righteous. The other day there was an interview on tv where a Pakistani here was taken and spent 3 years in the Cuban Gulag you run and then had to release him with no evidence against him. Didn't stop the SS, oops, wonderful marines torturing him for those years (and is not the only one). What a wonderful "democracy" where you can be taken by rendition from anywhere because you want to run the world.Deposit them in a Concentration Camp, tortue them and all without any due process of the law and often on flimsy stuff or guess work. People have been there for years with no real proof or trial. Yeah the great Republic my bum!

No doubt you will grumpily say there have been faults but they have been massive and all the more concerning because you stomp about the globe wanting to force everyone to agree with what your idea of democracy is about. At the same time the world sees your own internal history and all those rights and great principles that have time after time been contradicted. When you look at them and balance that with what actually happens the tip is to the negative.

Now to the dear Chicagoan. Sorry you are going to be a bit disappoited and you have jumped the gun a bit (plenty of them in a land awash with them). I wished my red socks associate a nice Christmas and he in gentlemanly attitude has returned the greeting so look elsewhere. This from a man who has had a dinner with 2 nuns quite sperately and had an associate who was a priest - two actually. One exchanged Christmas cards with me so why should I find Belfrager some kind of enemy? I bet if the "Orangeist" and the "Romanist" ever met you lot of stunted grey cells would be nashing your teeth at your disappointment. He and I are from two ends but we wil both enjoy a pleasant Christmas whatever it is called as per traditions and rightly so. The rest of you can sulk out in the cold! I would even sing Carols outside Belfrager's door even if he queried what organisation got the dosh!

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

while watching RJ and belfrager

Belfrager, not belfrager. rj, not RJ.
If anyone has made corrections about the way you are treated by Calvinists, it would be me.
So I ask you for the same retribution, mjmsprt40. Even if you are a Calvinist.
Thank you.

rjhowie, do you think that I will read four ten line paragraphs of babbling of yours in order to answer you?
When you want to say something to me, Lutheran Calvinist, you say it directly.
As I'm doing it.
Thank you

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

while watching RJ and belfrager

Belfrager, not belfrager. rj, not RJ.
If anyone has made corrections about the way you are treated by Calvinists, it would be me.
So I ask you for the same retribution, mjmsprt40. Even if you are a Calvinist.
Thank you.

OK, Belfrager, I stand corrected about the name. Now, for a bit of correction about Calvinism. Not all Protestants are Calvinists. Baptists are, I think Presbyterians are, Methodists are not, and Assemblies of God are not Calvinist.

So, all Calvinists are Protestant, but not all Protestants are Calvinist. I am not Calvinist.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

So, all Calvinists are Protestant, but not all Protestants are Calvinist. I am not Calvinist.

Ah, the subtleties of Protestantism. So, a Lutheran I presume.
The reformation of the reformation of the reformation of...

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

So, all Calvinists are Protestant, but not all Protestants are Calvinist. I am not Calvinist.

Ah, the subtleties of Protestantism. So, a Lutheran I presume.
The reformation of the reformation of the reformation of...

Nope, not Lutheran. I see you haven't read some of my recent posts, in one of them a couple of days back I stated that I am a member of the Assemblies of God.
Let's see if I can make this work, here's the link to the previous post in this thread.

http://my.opera.com/lounge/forums/findpost.pl?id=10964492

Well Belfrager having given you the respect of being inteilligent you will be well aware that the tradition here is for some to wander off evry thread that appears on these forums so why you should be so nippy is beyond me. I was answering that wider sneaking in remit as you well know so why you should be so huffy is your problem. Tut, tut. And now to YOU.

Just as mjshmsprt40 has indicated his denomination (Pemtacolsotal so just watch as they are into soeakin in tongues so stick to English!) a long time ago here I indicated that I was Presbyterian but your limited knowldeg of Protestantism sees you jump on the first Protestant word that comes to mind - Lutheran! Protestantism has many subtleties and not automatically negative just because you come from a more rigid tradition. In the more non-general Presbyterian traditions here you would find (and often mainstream in mine) similarities with your own as it happens. This includes social, gender, etc. It is maybe something you don't know or appreciate if one is to be reasonable. I have no problem with your right to worship as you want and have never ever said anything alternate to that.

You would be more pleasantly surprised if you were here as it happensbut being so far away and a different country, understandable. Some of my most loyal supporters in community matters were members of the wee man waving from a Rome window! It might come as a shock that tens of thousands of my associates in 2,000 lodges in Gt Britain pray for you and yours at the start of every meeting! So dear Portugese all those regaliad thinking of you in their legions and not just this Presbyterian Protestant! (One can just imagine the shock?! )

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Nope, not Lutheran. I see you haven't read some of my recent posts, in one of them a couple of days back I stated that I am a member of the Assemblies of God.

My fault. I mean, I've read it, I'm just not familiarized with Assemblies of God. Who would imagine that that's not Lutherans or Calvinists.
I'm not certainly get into deep Protestants detailed typification, it's enough to know that if not by Rome, then against Rome. Not with us, then against us, the same old story. Some things never change.

So rjhowie, your "associates" prays for us? extraordinary days... it seems as a Brugel's painting...

Originally posted by Belfrager:

I'm not certainly get into deep Protestants detailed typification, it's enough to know that if not by Rome, then against Rome. Not with us, then against us, the same old story. Some things never change.

Only a small percentage of American Protestants are really against Rome, per say. They just don't follow all Rome's teachings.

Yep, Belfrager shows a generosity of spirit eh? I can understand you not fully appreciating all our little ways in another country but on Saturday night when I don the gear that prayer comes up again. If you feel in a generous like mood returning a wee quiet one do feel free when you are sitting relaxed on Saturday evening. Now wouldn't that just annoy the yakkers here with us praying for each other and spoil things for them? (!)

Goodness, Sanguinemoon is really getting clever now. He has worked out that Protestantism doesn't follow all Rome's teachings. Maybe that's why they are Protestants in the first place?!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Goodness, Sanguinemoon is really getting clever now. He has worked out that Protestantism doesn't follow all Rome's teachings. Maybe that's why they are Protestants in the first place?!

No, you're the clever one. I was just pointing out they aren't actively anti-Catholic like you and the rest of the queers in orange sashes are

Oh-ho, more efforts in trying to dig! We only have men in our ranks not pansy, half-men. The argument is the stance of the Church of Rome and not the individual worshipper. Not that such carries any weight with simple minds here of course who like to morph everything into something quite different. No you weren't pointing anything out you were trying to be smart so do try and stay within your bounds laddie. In the Ireland of the early 19th century when there was much friction between the 2 religions and an RC church was burned (along with a Protestant one) the local OO got together and donated money to the priest who acknowledged their gift. During another conflict in Armagh a priest was sheltered by a farmer who was also in the OO and stood at the door with a shotgun threatening to blow the heads off anyone who tried to cross his door. Again the clerygman appreciated the help to keep him safe and they knew each other. Kind of typical but not within the blinkered mindset here of course! In more modern times an Orangeman tended the grounds of a local RC Church in his Ulster village voluntarily and at no charge. Didn't do him much good as the Provos shot him. He was one of over 350 of ours murdered.

Anyway it is always bemusing the warped bigotry that is yakked here so keep it up. Great fun really.

And as it happens I have nothing personally against Belfrager as I believe in civil and religious liberty for all and I do hope he has as pleasant a Christmas as I intend to have?!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

In more modern times an Orangeman tended the grounds of a local RC Church in his Ulster village voluntarily and at no charge. Didn't do him much good as the Provos shot him.

Provos? shooting in Ireland? Weren't they Dutch and dismissed at late sixties or early seventies?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I do hope he has as pleasant a Christmas as I intend to have?!

Thank you, very kind of yours.
By the way, do you have Christmas Crib? course not... maybe the pagan tree... or even that is considered "an image" and burned?

The Provos Dutch? Come on now Belfrager you know better? They are Irish (!).

And yes, we have cribs, Nativity Plays in Primary Schools (5-11 years), candle lit services, Santa Claus with Grottos, etc. My nearest large shopping mall has a nativity model every year with Mary, Joseph and baby in a crib and boxes for charity donations. Amazing the similarity although our churches don't have statues and thingies. Our ministers are less ceremonially dressed and everything much simpler being Presbyterian and all that.

From the land of the mountain and flood and adventurers to the land of the explorers a Merry Christmas!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

The argument is the stance of the Church of Rome and not the individual worshipper.

At least that makes a bit more sense. Good on your OO boys for trying to protect an RC, even if your didn't agree with his stances in spiritual matters. Having said that, some of your statements do at least border on bigotry, especially against the Irish.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

The Provos Dutch? Come on now Belfrager you know better? They are Irish

On this side of the pond, many of us never heard of the Provos. So I looked it up. At first it seemed Belfrager was correct , but I changed my search term to Irish Provos and found what you meant . So there were two groups called the Provos. For a little while I was confused as to why an Orangeman would have to defend have to defend an RC priest against the IRA until I came upon this bit in the article "For years, beginning in the late 1960s, the IRA was considered one of the most dangerous terrorist organizations in the world." Then it made it sense. Yes, that bit about "queers in orange sashes" was a little dig, but deep down I'm inquisitive and am always open to learning new things. (that's why it sometimes takes bloody forever to complete a post, because I'm too busy checking multiple sources even in the information in the sources doesn't make it to my post )

Good you are learning. But my bigotry against the Irish? Convenient blindness I muse. Not so long back in a thread, I praised the modern Southern Ireland for getting away from being stuck in a 1916 mentality. so what's nigotted about that? There are still extremists over there but far smaller than in yesteryear and even the comments from Irish folk re the recent State visit showed that the majority with the benefit of wider education the distancing from the previous controlling power of the RC Church all brought it into a modern setting. However, I also pointed out that for decades the country was poor and backward until it joined the EEC and received a lot more than put in just like otehr small countries. Withoutnthe EEC money it would still have languished. What they don't want in the South is to incororate much of the minority in the North because they via the SF lot are a rough mob that the vast majority in the South don't want! In that I cannot blame them as they are more strident without realising fully yet that the South has moved on and left them behind.