Petition for the right not to eat animals in French schools

Petition for the right not to eat animals in French schools

A recent decree by the French government has imposed animal products at each meal in French cafeterias. This means that in schools, universities, enterprises, everywhere meals are prepared for a community, there is no option left for those who do not wish to eat animals.
The French Vegetarians Association, in cooperation with other organizations, is trying to obtain the withdraw of this decree, which is a very hard task because of the huge power of the agribusiness lobbies - first industry in France, above the automobile!

There is a petition online to support the reaction against this decree. I hope many of you will sign it (the text is in English). This is not about making vegetarians those who wish to stay omnivore: it is simply against a discrimination of which we are the victims in the interest of the agribusiness. A large number of signatures from abroad will hopefully be a strong support to our action against this French shame.

The address is of the petition is: http://petition.icdv.info/en/

Thanks in advance for your help!

I don't get it, how can they force you to eat meat? Are you saying every meal prepared in the cafeterias will have animal products in it? What, even salad? Coffee? Beans?

Well, not to worry. You can always move to the U.S. They have the best vegetables available

Originally posted by Muttsfan:

I don't get it, how can they force you to eat meat? Are you saying every meal prepared in the cafeterias will have animal products in it? What, even salad? Coffee? Beans?

Well, maybe not in the salad (although quite often you have tuna salad as the only choice!). But if you have to eat at the cafeteria everyday and the only dish without animal product you can have is a salad, you are left with no choice!
And no, there are no beans!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/the-beatles/8928192/Sir-Paul-McCartney-attacks-French-school-over-vegetarian-ban.html

Unlucky being French, eh? Now you are right on the Yankee-doodle dandy stuff there Muttsfan what with now adding having the best vegetables on top of everything else best and biggest at?!

First, I'm not at all sure how much the French government would pay attention to us here in the American Midwest. Probably not much, they don't pay a whole lot of attention to us on other issues so why should this be an exception?

Second--- I'm afraid I can't help you much, I'm a wee bit too carnivorous for your purposes. I like meat, so it's unlikely I'd be signing any pro-vegetarian petitions.

I think a better petition would be sustainable meat industry / organic meat and even livestock humaneness.

Cheap meat (especially hormone laden, grain-fed beef) = eating toxic waste + global warming

Real organic is the way to go. The humaneness issue could also be addressed if it's a concern, since it is a hidden problem few seem to care about.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

First, I'm not at all sure how much the French government would pay attention to us here in the American Midwest. Probably not much, they don't pay a whole lot of attention to us on other issues so why should this be an exception?

Second--- I'm afraid I can't help you much, I'm a wee bit too carnivorous for your purposes. I like meat, so it's unlikely I'd be signing any pro-vegetarian petitions.

This is not even about promoting vegetarianism. It's about freedom of choice. You are American, the land of freedom, aren't you?

Originally posted by pincopallino:

You are American, the land of freedom, aren't you?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...you're joking right? You have to be

Maybe you missed it... The US invented freedom.

On topic:

Choose to bring your lunch.

Originally posted by pincopallino:

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

First, I'm not at all sure how much the French government would pay attention to us here in the American Midwest. Probably not much, they don't pay a whole lot of attention to us on other issues so why should this be an exception?

Second--- I'm afraid I can't help you much, I'm a wee bit too carnivorous for your purposes. I like meat, so it's unlikely I'd be signing any pro-vegetarian petitions.

This is not even about promoting vegetarianism. It's about freedom of choice. You are American, the land of freedom, aren't you?

One of the things we choose around these parts is whether or not to sign petitions. In this case, I choose not to.

In order for me to sign, first the petition must affect me in some way. Whether people in France eat meat, or vegetables, does not affect me. Further, before I sign I have to consider any possible repercussions. I learned that a few decades back on a union picket line--- so these days I'm careful what I put my name to. Now, in this case there are no repercussions because there's no possible way this petition can affect me in any way unless I visit France--- which is most unlikely to happen.

Finally-- let's be straight up about this. It is promoting vegetarianism. I don't support it, for reason already stated. If you want to eat nothing but vegetables, have at it... I'm reasonably sure you can find whatever you like at the grocers in your area, and pack a sack lunch like I do.

Originally posted by pincopallino:

A recent decree by the French government has imposed animal products at each meal in French cafeterias. This means that in schools, universities, enterprises, everywhere meals are prepared for a community, there is no option left for those who do not wish to eat animals.

No, it doesn't mean that. Is there, in addition to the decree to include animals, a decree to preclude non-animal protein?

It's a very bad decree. An interesting countermeasure would be to demand a decree that non-animal protein is required to be offered at each meal as well.

Originally posted by ensbb3:

Choose to bring your lunch.

You can't. For "sanitary reasons" you are not allowed to bring in your lunch. Yes, I know it is almost incredible. But that's the situation.

Can't you simply tell the server to hold the meat?

Originally posted by pincopallino:

You can't. For "sanitary reasons" you are not allowed to bring in your lunch. Yes, I know it is almost incredible. But that's the situation.

Your profile says you're age 47... How does this effect you? Oh right, you're just advocating vegetarianism.

Originally posted by pincopallino:

Originally posted by ensbb3:

Choose to bring your lunch.

You can't. For "sanitary reasons" you are not allowed to bring in your lunch. Yes, I know it is almost incredible. But that's the situation.

are we still talking about schools? That'd have to be the strangest thing I ever heard.

This is clearly one of those cases where any other solution but signing this petition is impossible. :-\

Agreed tho, not being allowed to bring your lunch is crazy. That's something more worth fighting to change.

It's difficult to decide whether to support or reject a given petition without an original source explaining the changes that have been made. From a less biased source than the petition organisers, I mean.

This the closest I found:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2011/oct/26/french-government-banning-vegetarianism-schools?CMP=twt_gu

It's worth noting that it appears the ruling doesn't prohibit students bringing in their own food, I guess that's decided on a school-by-school basis. And when they talk about 'animal products', it's not all meat, but includes dairy and eggs. So vegans are the ones most heavily affected by this.

Still, never mind - Sir Paul is here to sort it all out.

At elementary schools you cannot bring your lunch. This is the most problematic point because it does not give you any choice for your children, that cannot be left at the school for lunch, if you are vegetarian. Of course, from high school that's different, kids can go out and eat where they want (at least senior high school for sure).
Hold the meat? Sure, but what is the nutritional content of a meal made by some salad and a couple of boiled vegetables - when there are some? Four days per week (in France school are open only 4 days per week). That's pretty close to starving!

Originally posted by pincopallino:

At elementary schools you cannot bring your lunch. This is the most problematic point because it does not give you any choice for your children, that cannot be left at the school for lunch, if you are vegetarian. Of course, from high school that's different, kids can go out and eat where they want (at least senior high school for sure).

Wow, in the Netherlands (or at least where I grew up) that was the complete opposite at elementary school. If you stayed at school for lunch you had to bring your own lunch or you'd starve. I struggle to find a rationale behind not allowing a child to bring lunch to school and I can't think of any.

Originally posted by pincopallino:

Of course, from high school that's different, kids can go out and eat where they want (at least senior high school for sure).

That's quite expensive, and besides bringing lunch is usually probably the cheaper, healthier option.

Yeah, I could understand the rationale behind, "Here's what we offer, this is what the best medical evidence we have suggests is a balanced diet. If you don't like it, it's your choice to supply your own." (And for the purposes of that, I'm setting aside any of the claims of the government bodies in question being manipulated by the agricultural sector.)

There is no reason schools should provide vegetarian meal. Even offering one alternative, for what amounts to a small percentage that may take it, cost the school money that takes away from educational funds and opens the door for other minorities (religious nutters and whatnot) to claim their special dietary needs should be offered too and taking even more money from books or supplies. Petition the school to let kids bring their lunch if it bothers you so bad. It'd be easier to accomplish I'd think as there is logic in it beyond one groups misguided ideals. At some point you should consider what's best for every one of the kids and not just having something provided to validate some crazy notion the parents have. Let the kids eat for nutrition and don't bother them with ideas that something shouldn't be eaten on principle alone when it is otherwise fine for them. Let them decide for themselves.

I don't understand the vegetarian thing. Do we have stomachs divided into four parts as cows have? are we ruminants? We are an omnivorous species, so our children should be fed that way.
Regarding having vegetarian food for a few children, I remember a group of lunatics that claimed not eating at all since, according them, they could get energy directly from sun light, kind of photosynthesis made with the pituitary gland. They consider eating the source of diseases and the obstacle to immortality. Shall we have no food for the unfortunate children of those people as well?

And remembering that France was the home of Haute Cuisine...

Originally posted by Belfrager:

I don't understand the vegetarian thing. Do we have stomachs divided into four parts as cows have? are we ruminants? We are an omnivorous species, so our children should be fed that way.

To continue on that line of reasoning, does your stomach contain an oven to cook the meat? All that follows from the comparison to cows is that we're not made for eating things like leaves and grass. Just because we can eat meat, doesn't necessarily mean it's the best thing for us. Perhaps the meat that's best suited for our needs comes from insects rather than other mammals. In any case I don't like the flavor of animals raised by factory farming, with the possible exception of salmon raised in captivity.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

To continue on that line of reasoning, does your stomach contain an oven to cook the meat?

Humans can't even digest meat like true carnivore. Nor do they have teeth or claws, nor even the running speed to naturally be able to catch meat.

Hold the pickles, hold the lettuce, special herders don't upset us...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkg_XojVRcs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

To continue on that line of reasoning, does your stomach contain an oven to cook the meat?

Humans can't even digest meat like true carnivore. Nor do they have teeth or claws, nor even the running speed to naturally be able to catch meat.

Again, worms and insects.

Anyway, I'm kind of a de facto vegetarian. I don't typically identify as one, and I think it's very strange if people say they're vegetarian "except during Christmas" or some such, but other than some fish now and then I eat very little meat.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

To continue on that line of reasoning, does your stomach contain an oven to cook the meat?

Humans can't even digest meat like true carnivore. Nor do they have teeth or claws, nor even the running speed to naturally be able to catch meat.

That's like saying that a hybrid car can't process petrol like a petrol car, so it's not a real car. We're jacks of all trades, not specially suited to either meat or plants exclusively. It is possible to get all the nutrients you need from plants, but it's not easy, and a vegetarian diet must be carefully planned, using knowledge not available to our forebears.

As for teeth and claws, we humans have much better tools than that - we have, well, tools.

Indeed!

So just out of curiosity, how many of us are signing this petition? I've already said I won't, since it in no way affects me and since I'm omnivorous anyway. Also, I have a suspicion it has to do with children's nutrition and fact is, children need a balanced diet. What you, as an adult, choose to do to yourself is largely your business, but it's a different thing when we're talking about children. Before you think I'm just talking through my hat on this, consider the laws we make concerning drinking alcohol and smoking cigarettes. Adults can drink and smoke themselves to oblivion, children aren't allowed to do it.

Sorry for the mini-rant, but the subject line of this thread smells of militant veganism. Again, what you choose to do as an adult is your business, and the way you raise your children at home is to a large extent your business, but don't necessarily expect the rest of the world to kowtow to your non-negotiable demands.

Jaybro is no Signatory.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

To continue on that line of reasoning, does your stomach contain an oven to cook the meat?

Humans can't even digest meat like true carnivore. Nor do they have teeth or claws, nor even the running speed to naturally be able to catch meat.

I have slaves to catch, kill, and prepare meat for me.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

So just out of curiosity, how many of us are signing this petition?

I'm still not clear on what's happening precisely. If I didn't like what they were serving on Tuesday, I'd just take food along from home on Tuesday. If that's not possible, that's certainly a bigger problem than whatever they're serving, and it's largely unclear to me where vegetarianism comes in. The OP seems to say that only meat is a legallly accepted source of protein — as opposed to things like tofu and bugs, I would presume* — which would be wrong, but... I don't know. I'm not convinced yet.

* I dislike the thought of eating bugs as much as any Westerner, but the simple fact is most of the rest of the world does and it's certainly more energy efficient to keep bugs than it is to keep cattle.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Also, I have a suspicion it has to do with children's nutrition and fact is, children need a balanced diet. What you, as an adult, choose to do to yourself is largely your business, but it's a different thing when we're talking about children. Before you think I'm just talking through my hat on this, consider the laws we make concerning drinking alcohol and smoking cigarettes. Adults can drink and smoke themselves to oblivion, children aren't allowed to do it.

A balanced diet with meat needs planning just as much as a balanced diet without meat.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

So just out of curiosity, how many of us are signing this petition?

Or how relevant or signature would be if we weren't French...

Originally posted by Frenzie:

A balanced diet with meat needs planning just as much as a balanced diet without meat.

A problem, at least with America, is eating too much meat and not enough vegetables.

Originally posted by tt92:

I have slaves to catch, kill, and prepare meat for me.

And that's keeping you from getting enough exercise, as opposed to doing it yourself. I make my slaves watch as I do it. Yeah, they snicker and call me a sucker of a master when they think I'm out of earshot, but the joke's on their lardasses.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I'd just take food along from home on Tuesday

Oh, some of the articles about this do indicate that children won't be allowed to do that. Even some American schools are going down that route, such as this one in Chicago. Like you, I'm still not exactly sure what's happening in France, but banning packed lunches isn't unprecedented.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:
So just out of curiosity, how many of us are signing this petition?
Or how relevant or signature would be if we weren't French...

My EU one might be slightly more relevant than an American one, though surely not by much.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Oh, some of the articles about this do indicate that children won't be allowed to do that. Even some American schools are going down that route, such as this one in Chicago. Like you, I'm still not exactly sure what's happening in France, but banning packed lunches isn't unprecedented.

There are tons of things that aren't unprecedented. Doesn't mean I agree with them. I'm also against school uniforms, just to name a thing that's quite popular. Besides I don't even like warm food for lunch.

As often is the case in a discussion like this, the reality gets confused after a number of false arguments. Let me make clear some points.

The new decree forces animal proteins and each meal. This is against freedom of choice. Add that one is not allowed to bring his lunch, and you should understand that there is no choice left but not to go to the canteen. That's fine is one of the parents do not work, but when both have a job, what to do?

The petition is not even about asking vegetarian meals provided by the canteen - that's another affair. It's about removing the obligation of animal products.

About the relevance of signatures by non French: a strong reaction coming ALSO form other countries certainly represents an important pressure.

Nutritional arguments. Children raised on a balanced vegan diet are perfectly healthy and less prone to the diseases of the affluent societies. Have a look at some of the many publications in medical and nutritional journals, no doubt is left. Do whatever you wish with your children, it's your responsibility, but please do not make wrong judgement and statements about ours. We are nutrition aware people who pay much attention to what's in our dishes, precisely because we make selective choices. You just choose on the bases of taste or habits.

And for those who say man is omnivore - although this is not at all the topic of the post - think of your bowel: 12 times as long as your body, like herbivores, instead of 3 times, like carnivores. And look at your teeth: small canines, large molars, again like herbivores. So please keep on your diet but avoid judging others especially when you have no specific nutritional knowledge.

I do wish you'd stop conflating vegetarianism with veganism.

You make sweeping statements about veganism - glossing over the fact that most health organisations recommend that vegans take iron, vitamin D and B12 supplements as these are hard to come by in a diet free from animal products, and in fact many explicitly do not recommend a vegan diet for children.

Comparing bowel lengths doesn't tell you much - the bowel is used for extracting nutrition, not for digestion.

Yes, a vegan diet does go some way to arming you against heart disease and other major Western killers, but it's not the only way, and it comes with it's own set of risks. Moderation in all things.

Where I can completely get behind vegetarianism is in the ethical angle - the treatment of animals in mass production, and in fact the wastage of resources associated with it, is simply shocking.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand - what are the rules in place for kids with medical dietary requirements? Allergies, and so on? Are they catered for, or are they simply recommended not to eat at school?

Originally posted by Frenzie:

There are tons of things that aren't unprecedented. Doesn't mean I agree with them. I'm also against school uniforms, just to name a thing that's quite popular. Besides I don't even like warm food for lunch.

Oh, I agree.

Originally posted by pincopallino:

The petition is not even about asking vegetarian meals provided by the canteen - that's another affair. It's about removing the obligation of animal products.

Pretty much the same thing, no? Yes, I know the difference between vegetarian and vegan. However, a cheese sandwich without meat still has an animal product, but can be considered vegetarian. This is part of why it's confusing. You want the children to be able to choose not to eat animal products, but aren't asking for vegan alternative meals? I guess the vegan kids can ask for the rice and broccoli (with no butter or many types of margarine or cheese sauce, of course) That's not balanced. If want a different protein source such as beans or peanut butter, you're straight back to asking for complete vegetarian meals.

Originally posted by johnnysaucepn:

Yes, a vegan diet does go some way to arming you against heart disease and other major Western killers, but it's not the only way, and it comes with it's own set of risks. Moderation in all things.

So no eating the 8000 calorie burger this place has, than? The article does outline a success story of a 400 pound woman who switched to a vegan diet. The doctors were threatening her with amputating her leg due to infection and needed 200 units of insulin a day. Within 30 days of her new diet, she was off insulin. So there is definitely something to be said for well planned vegan diet. I checked some vegan websites and it does seem fairly easy to get those nutrients you mentioned, but again it requires planning.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by johnnysaucepn:

Yes, a vegan diet does go some way to arming you against heart disease and other major Western killers, but it's not the only way, and it comes with it's own set of risks. Moderation in all things.

So no eating the 8000 calorie burger this place has, than? The article does outline a success story of a 400 pound woman who switched to a vegan diet. The doctors were threatening her with amputating her leg due to infection and needed 200 units of insulin a day. Within 30 days of her new diet, she was off insulin. So there is definitely something to be said for well planned vegan diet. I checked some vegan websites and it does seem fairly easy to get those nutrients you mentioned, but again it requires planning.

Undoubtedly, if you have that kind of extreme health problem caused by overindulgence (and I agree totally that it's a growing problem) then an extreme move in the opposite direction will get results. But for most, simply eating less meat is enough to see health benefits, moreso than a complete lifestyle change.

As for the subject in hand, does anyone have an estimate of how much extra it costs to provide alternatives for children whose parents have dictated that they should have a different diet to their peers?

Originally posted by johnnysaucepn:

As for the subject in hand, does anyone have an estimate of how much extra it costs to provide alternatives for children whose parents have dictated that they should have a different diet to their peers?

Depends on what it is, of course. In some cases, it might be cheaper than the meat meals. For example, this veggie burger recipe, which is basically some beans, flour and common spices is probably cheaper than a regular hamburger; especially if you soak dried beans instead of using canned.

Originally posted by johnnysaucepn:

But for most, simply eating less meat is enough to see health benefits, moreso than a complete lifestyle change.

And simpler for most people. I understand that woman's decision, though. She saw that her old lifestyle was literally killing her.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Depends on what it is, of course. In some cases, it might be cheaper than the meat meals. For example, this veggie burger recipe, which is basically some beans, flour and common spices is probably cheaper than a regular hamburger; especially if you soak dried beans instead of using canned.

I don't mean only supplying a veggie menu, I mean having to prepare veggie (or even vegan) dishes alongside meat ones, also taking into account any requirement for vitamin or iron supplements.

Originally posted by pincopallino:

Nutritional arguments. Children raised on a balanced vegan diet are perfectly healthy and less prone to the diseases of the affluent societies. Have a look at some of the many publications in medical and nutritional journals, no doubt is left. Do whatever you wish with your children, it's your responsibility, but please do not make wrong judgement and statements about ours. We are nutrition aware people who pay much attention to what's in our dishes, precisely because we make selective choices. You just choose on the bases of taste or habits.

With "don't like" I meant anything from "I hate the flavor and consistency of spinach à la crème" to "I don't think this pizza overstuffed with cheese looks very healthy." I'm not a picky eater (the primary things I dislike tend to be too much fat, salt and sugar — apparently opposite of most people), but it seems pretty obvious to me that what people do and don't like is an important practical consideration. You don't like meat. Whether you do that because you're against animal suffering (one of my own primary reasons for not eating much meat of the type I do like either), because of health reasons, or simply because you don't like the flavor doesn't strike me as particularly significant for my argument.

The type of reason only strikes me as important once you leave the domain of taking food from home and move on to what schools should serve. Then a simple "don't like the flavor" is a rather paltry argument.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Then a simple "don't like the flavor" is a rather paltry argument.

Children didn't like the flavor of school lunches ever since they were invented

If there's primarily a bunch of overcooked carrots and peas in the canteen, who can blame 'em?

I remember cafeteria lunches from when I went to school. Some of it was OK, but some of it made starvation look like the easy way out. If you really wanted to make trouble, make a vegan meal the only choice--- .

Originally posted by Frenzie:

If there's primarily a bunch of overcooked carrots and peas in the canteen, who can blame 'em?

Or the overcooked, mushy broccoli. There's few things worse than that

If there is French food problem let them take a lesson from their own history.....let them eat cake?

Cakes can be vegan! You can replace eggs with applesauce.