"Show close button on tabs", confusion.

"Show close button on tabs", confusion.

With the release of TP2 another effect has been added to the "show close button on tabs" option. The result has been a delluge of posts by old and new users, confused, not understanding why they cannot close all their tabs.
So what effects does this option have, if it is disabled?
#1 Close buttons are removed (well duh)
#2 Close/min/restore buttons are added to menu bar.
#3 Clicking on a focussed tab will minimize it.
#4 It allows an empty workspace
#5 You get a Window dropdown in your menu bar

The descripiont of the option only covers #1, #2 could be seen as implied, and it, at least, has an immediatly visible effect. The function of it should be obvious to even the newest user. Effects #3, #4 an #5, however, come as a complete surprise to the baffled user. I do not see any way of describing this one option in a way that would cover all four effects. That is one thing.

Another is customisability. One of the main reasons i use Opera, one of it's major strengths, is it's customisability. The default setup looks clunky to me so i change it, it's a beautifull world.
However, these four effects are inseperable. I cannot enable the close button without losing the option of an empty workspace. I cannot get rid of it without enabling the minimsing option (confusing to many new users.)

The conclusion is clear, these four options should be seperated. So we would have four check boxes.
#1 Show close button on each tab.
#2 Show "window buttons" (this needs wordsmithing) on menu bar.
#3 Allow minimising of tabs.
#4 Allow empty workspace.
For the disabling of the window dropdown i see no reason, there is plenty of room on the menu bar, the options it offers are more or less obvious so there should be no confusion, even for new users. If someone does not want it anyway, they can always dive into the .ini files.
These four options might crowd the general preferences tab a bit. So options #1 and #2 could be moved to the customisation dialog, where all the other buttons are at, remember?
Should this still be too crowded these options can always be relocated to the opera:config, i do not really care, as long as the options are there.

So, how does the forum feel about this?

PS; Personally i see no disadvantage to full MDI and no advantage to enabling it, my settings would not change if these options became available. Others have different peferences, i do not see why they should be forced into a particular MDI/non-MDI straightjacket.


NB: Post updated to reflect new information and to explain my stance more fully.

EDIT: CRAP! the update has erased all votes:bomb:

Originally posted by Zotlan:

So, how does the forum feel about this?

I like the idea of being able to have a choice. You have my support.

+1 to allow tweaking of the behaviours seperately in opera:config — I personally don't see the need to have all four in the UI, I like the current simplification, I just don't like not being able to specify (though I have to say I'd have my settings exactly like close buttons off, I don't need the customisation personally).

One additional change not mentioned.

On the Menu bar you have, File, Edit, View, Bookmarks, Mail, Tools, Window, Help.

With "Show close button on tabs" enabled, the "Window" menu is not shown.

To me the descriptions "tab mode" and "multiple document interface mode" (mdi) cover these options perfectly. However, the mdi description apparently confuses non-technical users.

Since my choice is mdi mode which is covered by not showing close buttons on tabs, I don't really care about having the options, they will just pollute the interface. Well, I guess Opera:config is an acceptable option.

Originally posted by Darquan:

To me the descriptions "tab mode" and "multiple document interface mode" (mdi) cover these options perfectly. However, the mdi description apparently confuses non-technical users.

Those descriptions only work if you know what tab mode, or MDI are. Users new to opera, and older non technical users, will not know this.
And the point remains that one check button should not have 5 (thank you Saddle, didn't notice that) different effects.

Since my choice is mdi mode which is covered by not showing close buttons on tabs, I don't really care about having the options, they will just pollute the interface. Well, I guess Opera:config is an acceptable option.

If they do clutter too much they should be relocated to opera:config yes, i agree with that.


For the record, there is no part of the MDI settings i do not like, adding these options would not actually change my settings. Others, however, have different preferences, i see no reason to force them into a MDI/non-MDI straightjacket.

I made a similar request in the wish list forum a while back (http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=119838). The main point:

I don't see why ticking "Show close button on each tab" should remove the close button from the top right or remove the Window menu. It's not as if there's a lack of space on the menu bar.

So basically, I agree. The "Show close button on each tab" option should do just that and nothing more. I want a close button on every tab as well as the Window menu and min/max/x in top right. Tabbed browsing and MDI are not mutually exclusive!

-1 Empty workspace serves no purpose.

Originally posted by Saddle Magic:

With "Show close button on tabs" enabled, the "Window" menu is not shown.

I think the logic for this would have been "a user not interested in removing the close button, will not be interested with the 'window' menu".

There was one function I don't see listed, maybe things have changed in 9.0tp2.

When you option to not have the close buttons in each tab, clicking the active tab will switch you back to the last page viewed.

I could never get used to this "feature" and was very happy when it could be turned off. I did not notice the other changes because I have my Menu bar disabled, I did not see the page control buttons were absent. My menus from the Menu bar are reduced to one button, it was not immediately obvious the window menu was removed.

What I have done, besides disable the Menu bar, is place custom buttons on my Status bar to the Close or Restore the active page (I have no need for the minimize). I have also re-established the window menu via the menu.ini file. So as far as I am concerned this option has removed the one behavior I do not like and gained the closed buttons on each tab, which I have come to like. That is a double plus from my point of view, I only have to add a few buttons and edit one menu which is no big deal.

So from my point of view the option could stay just as it is. However, I do think that these features should be addressed individually.

Originally posted by Saddle Magic:

There was one function I don't see listed, maybe things have changed in 9.0tp2.

When you option to not have the close buttons in each tab, clicking the active tab will switch you back to the last page viewed.

That's not quite what happens. Clicking an active (or focussed, whatever you want to call it) tab minimises it. When you do this only once the result is that you are taken back to the last page viewed. But when you keep doing it you will eventually be left with only an empty background and a list of inactive tabs in your pagebar.

-1 Empty workspace serves no purpose.

Perhaps, but some people like to have the option, me included.

I think the logic for this would have been "a user not interested in removing the close button, will not be interested with the 'window' menu".

A highly dubious piece of logic, and an unnessecary one. If user are not interested in the window menu they can simply ignore it, there is no lack of space on the menu bar. Besides, i really hate it when software starts making assumptions on what i want. If i want something i will tell it.

Originally posted by chesss:

Originally posted by Saddle Magic:

With "Show close button on tabs" enabled, the "Window" menu is not shown.

I think the logic for this would have been "a user not interested in removing the close button, will not be interested with the 'window' menu".

I don't think so. About half of the functionality in the windows menu is related to resizing, tiling, cascading of windows (which is not possible with tabs). The other options are available elsewhere (closed pages in the trash can, close all & close all but active in a popup menu, and the window list in the window panel).

Originally posted by Darquan:

Originally posted by chesss:

Originally posted by Saddle Magic:

With "Show close button on tabs" enabled, the "Window" menu is not shown.

I think the logic for this would have been "a user not interested in removing the close button, will not be interested with the 'window' menu".

I don't think so. About half of the functionality in the windows menu is related to resizing, tiling, cascading of windows (which is not possible with tabs).

Wrong, if you add a custom windows menu all the functionality is still there, wether close buttons are enabled or not.
So it is a design decision, not a technical one.

Originally posted by Zotlan:

If user are not interested in the window menu they can simply ignore it, there is no lack of space on the menu bar.

True,it can be ignored. But then i could add another 10 opera features and expect users to just ignore them. The idea is here is proboably ot simplify things, to appeal to the masses. Besides, I don't think most users will bother with cascading/tiling etc

On the otherhand it won't be a bad idea to just give a opera:config setting, if possible.

Originally posted by Zotlan:

Wrong, if you add a custom windows menu all the functionality is still there, whether close buttons are enabled or not.So it is a design decision, not a technical one.

Confirmed as I am using the close button on each tab and have the Window menu in my custom menu.ini file. I can cascade, tile etc.

Yes, I have seen no loss of functions associated with opting for the close button on each tab.

The options should have been split during the 8.0 betas, when this was first introduced.

Click-to-minimize tabs option should probably be moved to Advanced > Browsing.
Show window menu and allow empty workspace probably doesn't need to be in the GUI prefrences, so they could be in opera:config only.

That leaves only the actual close button, and the MDI buttons that I have not yet decided where I think they should be.

Originally posted by Daedalus:

Click-to-minimize tabs option should probably be moved to Advanced > Browsing.

I've stated my viewpoint before that all of these things should be separately controllable. Regarding this one specific setting, personally I would like to be able to set it to a third value. I want clicking on the active tab to have the action "push to back", i.e. don't minimize it, but put it behind all other tabs.

This might best be implemented by allowing is to control the action (in terms of Opera action commands) associated with such UI motions. There are quite a few such motions that we currently can't control -- here's a partial list off the top of my head:

middle-click on tab
click on inactive tab
click on active tab
click on hyperlink
shift-click on hyperlink
control-click on hyperlink
control-shift-click on hyperlink

Opera clearly has an internal binding for each of these. If those bindings were exposed to the user somehow, we could control a lot of things that currently bother us. This control doesn't necessarily have to have a nice UI -- it would be adequate if we had to edit a *.ini file, and more than adequate if these internal bindings appeared in opera:config.

Just one small example of the kind of control this would give us. The current binding for "click" appears to be "activate link" -- actually I'm not sure what Opera's name for the action is, but it's the action that means "follow this link, and if it has a target associated with it, pay attention to that target". But we could rebind it to "Open link" (which you can currently reach from the right-click context menu on a link). This ignores targets: the link opens in the current tab even if it specifies a target. So by changing this binding, you instantly negate targets -- something that many users have asked for.

>Bela<

Why so much debate on this simple thing!! Whats the big(?) problem if the close button is always on?? That sounds natural to click close button to close the tab instead of something fancy. I don't know how diverse people are in their choices of minor issues.

The debate is not over the close button.

The debate is over all the functions that have been associated with this feature.

Someone said that in TDI-mode it is not possible to resize tabs. I may be wrong but if you right-click on a tab in the tab bar there is an option "restore" which seems to have the same effect as the "resize" button in MDI-mode (right corner of the inner window/tab).

At least you are able to move and resize the tab in TDI as well. That's why I think there actually isn't a real difference between MDI and TDI except for the appearance. All features seem to be available in both modes.

Did I miss sth.?

What is TDI mode?

With TDI (Tabbed Document Interface) I mean the "show close button on each tab"-mode.

This is the first I've seen that.

I would refer to it as MDI, Multiple Document Interface. As opposed to SDI, Single Document Interface.

There is a nice article about TDI at wikipedia.org. There even is a screenshot of Opera.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabbed_document_interface

Edit:
quote: "One example of an application that allows either TDI or MDI browsing is the Opera web browser. Using TDI by default, this application also supports full MDI and can also run as an SDI application."

That's what I mean. In fact, TDI in Opera is MDI with a different appearance and not really a different mode.

Originally posted by operafan2006:

Why so much debate on this simple thing!! Whats the big(?) problem if the close button is always on?? That sounds natural to click close button to close the tab instead of something fancy. I don't know how diverse people are in their choices of minor issues.

1) It can get in the way when many tabs are open.
2) It wasn't there untill the Opera 8, so many people here are not used to it/do not like it.
3) There is never any reason to force the user to have a certain button visible.

That aside, you seem to have missed the main point of my post. Which was that the options also associated with enabling the close button should be separated from it. Allowing the user to configure Opera more to his/her liking.

Originally posted by Darquan:

I don't think so. About half of the functionality in the windows menu is related to resizing, tiling, cascading of windows (which is not possible with tabs).

Wrong: opera-tiled.gif

And there is no such thing as TDI in Opera. Opera is MDI, whether or not you have the tab bar turned on. Like I said before, MDI and tabbed browsing are not mutually exclusive, as that Wikipedia article explains in the first paragraph.

Originally posted by Zotlan:

Originally posted by Darquan:

About half of the functionality in the windows menu is related to resizing, tiling, cascading of windows (which is not possible with tabs).

Wrong, if you add a custom windows menu all the functionality is still there, wether close buttons are enabled or not.
So it is a design decision, not a technical one.

Originally posted by svivian:

Wrong: opera-tiled.gif

You guys misunderstood my post. What I meant was that in a real tabbed interface, there is no resizing, tiling and cascading of windows. Opera doesn't have a real tabbed interface but rather simulates one by using maximized MDI windows.

My point was to comment on the following:

Originally posted by chesss:

I think the logic for this would have been "a user not interested in removing the close button, will not be interested with the 'window' menu".

I suspect the logic to have been: In the tabbed interface metaphor there is no resizing, tiling cascading, etc. therefore if a user chooses for a tabbed browser interface (as opposed to the MDI interface) the window menu should not be there.

I mean, why would you choose for tabbed browsing when you want to tile and or cascade windows? I think a lot of the confusion caused by the show close buttons is that the actual choice being made is to either simulate TDI or use MDI. Unfortunately most users do not really know the actual difference between both (or are at least unfamiliar with the terminology) and therefore the (poor) "show close button on tabs" description was chosen. The five side effects of switching the close buttons on/off actually make perfect sense for TDI / MDI interfaces. The description creates more confusion than needed.

I agree that some of the features influenced by the choice between TDI / MDI could be made regardless of which mode is used:
- You can have a tabbed interface without close buttons on each tab (in fact, Opera is one of the only apps I know with close buttons on tabs). Similarly, you could have close buttons on windows of an MDI interface (although this is highly unusual).
- The click to minimize/click to restore behaviour is also typical for MDI applications (check your windows taskbar for example). You could however create an MDI interface that behaves different (again, this is quite unusual).
- etc...

Apparently there are quite a few users who would like to break with typical TDI/MDI behaviour, so I guess opera:config should get a couple of extra options.

Originally posted by Darquan:

Apparently there are quite a few users who would like to break with typical TDI/MDI behaviour, so I guess opera:config should get a couple of extra options.

Exactly my point, if i wanted to be forced into "typical behaviour" (whatever that is) i would use a different browser.

@Zotlan: note, the poll options are rather ambiguous. "I agree with it" and "I disagree" -- with what? With the way things are currently implemented? Or with your position that the functions of "Show close button on each tab" should be separated?

For the record, I voted "I agree" meaning "I agree they should be separated". I see that as of this moment, 10 other people have voted "agree" and zero "disagree". But did each of them intend to agree with you -- or with Opera's current configuration?

>Bela<

Originally posted by filbo:

For the record, I voted "I agree" meaning "I agree they should be separated".

ditto here

I want to open the transfer window in a serparete window and have no close buttons on tab... how do I do that ?

Right now if I choose not to have the close button, then the transfer window doesn't open in a seperate window. arghh

ctrl+alt+t opens transfers tab -- close it for instance with either middle click, crtl+w or right-click > close... ?

Originally posted by filbo:

@Zotlan: note, the poll options are rather ambiguous. "I agree with it" and "I disagree" -- with what? With the way things are currently implemented? Or with your position that the functions of "Show close button on each tab" should be separated?

For the record, I voted "I agree" meaning "I agree they should be separated". I see that as of this moment, 10 other people have voted "agree" and zero "disagree". But did each of them intend to agree with you -- or with Opera's current configuration?

>Bela<

You understood correclty:) I;m not going to change the poll though, that would wipe the votes again.
If people disagree they should at least say why.

I'm great fan of MDI (and that's why I find Mac Opera so much inferior to Windows version, BTW).

I agree with non-troppo - setting in it's current form is OK. It's simple for novice users and restores classic Opera behaviour with one click. Some tweaks could make it into opera:config.

Originally posted by Gspusi:

ctrl+alt+t opens transfers tab -- close it for instance with either middle click, crtl+w or right-click > close... ?

No, you got me wrong. I don't want the transfers to open in a tab. I want to open it in a "window".
It only opens in a window when "use tabbed browsing" is unchecked. But the problem is, Opera doesn't give us the option to hide close buttons when "use tabbed browsing" is unchecked.

Originally posted by Zotlan:

That's not quite what happens. Clicking an active (or focussed, whatever you want to call it) tab minimises it. When you do this only once the result is that you are taken back to the last page viewed. But when you keep doing it you will eventually be left with only an empty background and a list of inactive tabs in your pagebar.

This confusion is one of the reasons the feature was delegated to the 'pure' MDI mode.

Several people in this thread have stated they want as many options as possible, but wouldn't use them themselves. That doesn't sound like a good idea to me. The naming of the option might be done better, maybe like this:
[x ] Tabbed browsing
[ x] Classic MDI

...

But I never hear people that don't want the close button on tabs, but still want the simplified tabbed browsing (no minimize-on-click, no windows-menu, no MDI-control buttons on the menu bar). So I don't see any use for four or five different settings, hidden in opera:config, that don't really help people. That would make lots of different configurations possible, while IMHO only three are actually wanted by our users. The third configuration (not possible now), is to allow close buttons on tabs in pure MDI mode - that's the one thing added in Opera 8.x that many people like, but some don't want to give up some of the MDI pecularities to get it.

Originally posted by Rijk:

But I never hear people that don't want the close button on tabs...

Umm, I am one of those: I'd prefer no such close buttons for all tabs (they take far to much of page-tab's inline headers IMHO), I'm using middle-click and I personally don't like the windows-like caption buttons on top right corner neither, same goes for menu 'windows'.

I tweaked my skin.ini not to show close buttons on all tabs but only the selected one :: this is using only the Pagebar Close Button Skin.pressed, Pagebar Close Button Skin.selected and Pagebar Close Button Skin.selected.hover, well, and the Pagebar Locked Button Skin of course.

Originally posted by Rijk:

Several people in this thread have stated they want as many options as possible, but wouldn't use them themselves. That doesn't sound like a good idea to me. The naming of the option might be done better, maybe like this:
[x ] Tabbed browsing
[ x] Classic MDI

If the terms and their effetcs are properly explained in the help file, or better yet in a mouse-over, that could work.

Originally posted by Rijk:

while IMHO only three are actually wanted by our users.

I have to disagree there, there are people who, for example, want tabbed browsing but do not want to lose the window buttons on the tab bar. The group of people who like tabbed browsing but detest that they cannot close all tabs seems to be quite large even, as is the third group you mentioned. I could go on.
Perhaps these groups are too small to warrant inclusion of the options, i have no idea what Opera's policy is in these matters. But at the very least the naming of the option should be changed. The current name nowhere near covers what it does.

EDIT: BtW, what is wrong with having many possible configurations of Opera? Isn't that already the case? It's a good thing, choice is good.
*looks at Rijk's sig* and you seem to agree with that at least:-)

Originally posted by Rijk:

But I never hear people that don't want the close button on tabs, but still want the simplified tabbed browsing (no minimize-on-click, no windows-menu, no MDI-control buttons on the menu bar). So I don't see any use for four or five different settings, hidden in opera:config, that don't really help people. That would make lots of different configurations possible, while IMHO only three are actually wanted by our users. The third configuration (not possible now), is to allow close buttons on tabs in pure MDI mode - that's the one thing added in Opera 8.x that many people like, but some don't want to give up some of the MDI pecularities to get it.

I don't like the buttons on the tabs - I run out of space to read the name of the webpage. But I also get annoyed when I accidentally cascade or tile my windows. The only time I use the Window menu is to use Maximise All after making a mistake.

One of the things I like about Firefox is that the "close tab" button is in the same spot, meaning I can rapidly close many tabs very easily. At the moment, it's more tedious in Opera 8.5, particularly if there are a lot of tabs open. I read that that version 7 of Opera had the Firefox design.

If Opera 9 promises to allow a choice between the two, I'm all for it.

Originally posted by Ivegottheskill:

I read that that version 7 of Opera had the Firefox design.

Opera 7 had no option to have close buttons on the page tabs.

Originally posted by Saddle Magic:

Originally posted by Ivegottheskill:

I read that that version 7 of Opera had the Firefox design.

Opera 7 had no option to have close buttons on the page tabs.

Neither has firefox I think he meant a close button on the edge of the tab bar, while opera had it on the menu bar.

Originally posted by shoust:

I think he meant a close button on the edge of the tab bar, while opera had it on the menu bar.

If that is the case you can add one there in Opera.

Originally posted by shoust:

Originally posted by Saddle Magic:

Originally posted by Ivegottheskill:

I read that that version 7 of Opera had the Firefox design.

Opera 7 had no option to have close buttons on the page tabs.

Neither has firefox I think he meant a close button on the edge of the tab bar, while opera had it on the menu bar.

Yeah, thats what I meant. FF has the close button at the right edge of the tab bar. Making it easy to close a lot of tabs quickly (and easy to close the open tab, because the button is always in the same location).

If Opera 8.5 has an option to get rid of the close buttons off individual tabs and just make 1 closing button on the edge of the tab bar, please enlighten me

It's easy, go here, http://nontroppo.org/wiki/CustomButtons#page and pick up a close button, there are other places to find them, the Wiki has a large collection of buttons.

In Opera 8.xx the ends of you Page bar, the Page bar header and Page bar footer, will hold a button.

Removing the close button on the Page tabs is an option under General Preferences. Disabling that option will also put the three page control buttons, Miminize, Restore, Maximize, on the end of your Menu bar.

Use middle mouse button, luke.

Close should appear on all tabs.....empty workspace should be blank page with close same as control + n, not the useless blank startup tab bullshit.........geeze!!!!!!

Originally posted by fuckmee:

Close should appear on all tabs.....empty workspace should be blank page with close same as control + n, not the useless blank startup tab bullshit.........geeze!!!!!!

To each their own i suppose

no wonder there are issues........

Originally posted by Rijk:

But I never hear people that don't want the close button on tabs, but still want the simplified tabbed browsing (no minimize-on-click, no windows-menu, no MDI-control buttons on the menu bar). So I don't see any use for four or five different settings, hidden in opera:config, that don't really help people.

But like you mentioned, I would expect there are people who do want close buttons on the tabs, but want real MDI mode too.

The reduction of all these settings to a single checkbox came from Opera 8's attempt at UI simplification of course, which was sorely needed, IMHO. And it should remain as such. But I find it a little illogical to bundle up all these various settings under 'Show close button on each tab'. In my experience, the vast majority of people expect one of two behaviours:

1) Firefox pseudo-MDI "tabbed browsing" mode: *

• No MDI Minimize/Restore/Close buttons.
  
• Clicking on a focused tab does nothing, it keeps the tab focused.
  
• Empty workspace is not allowed.
  
• No 'Window' pulldown menu.

2) Opera full MDI mode:

• MDI Minimize/Restore/Close buttons.
  
• Clicking on a focused tab minimises the page.
  
• Empty workspace is allowed, being a true MDI window.
  
• 'Window' pulldown menu.

'Show close button on each tab', IMHO, is not linked to either behaviour, and should be separated. So I propose changing the existing

[x] Use tabbed browsing
[x] Show close button on each tab

to:

( ) Single window mode
(o) Tabbed browsing
( ) Advanced MDI tabbed browsing
   [x] Show close button on each tab

...which does seem a little reminiscent of days past. Still only two settings however - it is still a simple choice for the user - but one is made a radio button with three options. And I think it should more effectively cover both the Firefox refugees and the more old school Opera users, with less confusion for both. And it unbinds the close buttons from tabbed browsing/MDI window mode, which really aren't related.

* One possible addition to 'tabbed browsing' mode being that closing tab (n) takes the focus to tab (n-1). I've heard Firefox zealots bitch about Opera's lack of this behaviour before, though it seems daft to me...