Just how free is freedom?

Just how free is freedom?

One of the thing brought up time and time again on the forums is that government should keep their hand off the people's buisness and allow them to do what ever they want.

Freedom… what does it really mean? Many people take freedom for granted but nobody ever stop to think about what the true meaning of freedom. The founding fathers believed that everybody is “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” (US declaration of independence). However, just like any other things in life, freedom is not free. It passes on an enormous debt to the recipient.

Another reason freedom is not free is that are terms and conditions that entail with freedom. For example, although United States citizens are entitled to vote in the federal elections, serve on a jury, travel with US passports, run for federal office, and are eligible for federal grants and scholarship, they are required, among many other things, to support and defend the Constitution, serve the country when required, and respect and obey all United States laws.

...

One of the most important reason why freedom is not free is that there are measures in place to ensure that no one infringe the freedom of other people. Is freedom really free if it infringes upon the freedom of other people? For example, although we have the freedom to say anything we like, we must not say things that can affect or harm other people. One of the most widely given example is shouting “Fire” in a crowded place when there isn’t any. Because of that person’s action, other people can be hurt or even killed in the ensuring stampede. Another example is racial discrimination. Although we can say anything we want, speaking hurtful or disdainful things about another race can spur hate crimes where people can be hurt and thus their freedom for life is breached. Therefore, although we are entitled to do anything we want, we must walk a fine line where our actions does not overstep and affect other people.

Originally posted by OakdaleFTL:

Originally posted by Ilya Somin:

Constitutional Separation of Powers vs. Parliamentary Government

That's a false dichotomy, or actually a series of them. Not all countries have a written constitution, some do, some don't, and that seems to be fairly independent of type of government.

Virtually all countries have a separation of powers, including USA and Canada, and that includes the traditional tripartite (executive, legislative, and judiciary) that didn't start with the USA and didn't end with it. This division is largely habitual, you could add others, e.g. the central bank has powers and is not necessarily directly subservient to other powers. And you could keep adding divisions to your heart's content (e.g. between police, court, penal system). Their relative strengths and respective influences vary, and there may be discrepancies between de jure and de facto (e.g. is a corrupt court system truly independent?).

Unicameral versus bicameral (or multicameral) is orthogonal to the system of government. It may be a virtue of necessity (like in the US a compromise to represent semi-autonomous states of different sizes), though in my view not a virtue in itself.

The opposite of parliamentary system would better be presidential. What truly characterises the parliamentary system is the vote of (no) confidence. The parliament has the power to sack an executive they are dissatisfied with. This is not the case in a system like the US, French, Russian with a strong president. In principle impeachment would be effectively the same as a vote of no confidence, but with a lot more drama, and needing some (historically flimsy) pretext.

None of these are related to democracy as such. Non-democracies generally have the same structures, including division of labour though I believe with a greater concentration of power than you would find in democracies, they are just not democratically elected.

Originally posted by jax:

Originally posted by Ilya Somin: "Constitutional Separation of Powers vs. Parliamentary Government"
That's a false dichotomy […]

Actually, you'd have to take that up with Somin's George Mason colleague Frank Buckley, who argued "that parliamentary systems of government are less likely to become dysfunctional than separation of powers systems such as that of the United States:"
But you seem inclined to manufacture distinctions sufficient to obviate any point, let alone useful debate… Yet you blithely [A good word, no? ] write "the opposite of parliamentary system would better be presidential," as if that were some criticism or contribution to the Buckley/Jarvis & Turnbull exchange… (Mark D. Jarvis & Lori Turnbull are the two surviving authors of Democratizing the Constitution: Reforming Responsible Government who penned an op-ed summarizing the thesis of the book to which Buckley took exception.) Political taxonomy wasn't the goal.
The blurb on the publisher's page for the book says:

"Canada's time-honoured system of responsible government is failing us. This principle, by which the executive must be accountable to the people's elected representatives, was fought for and won over 160 years ago, but we now see that achievement slipping away. Our constitution and its unwritten conventions no longer provide effective constraints on a prime minister's power. The result: a dysfunctional system, in which the Canadian constitution has degenerated into whatever the prime minister decides it is, and a Parliament that is effectively controlled by the prime minister, instead of the other way around.

"This timely book examines recent history and ongoing controversies as it makes the case for restoring power to where it belongs — with the people's elected representatives in Parliament.

"This book has been designed to meet the needs of courses on Canadian politics, as it gives special attention to explaining the institutions and concepts involved, as well as the fascinating history that has led to present day conflicts over our constitutional state of affairs. Its offering of proposals to address the problems it outlines will also make it a must-read for political observers and interested citizens across the country."

In short, the particular histories and current politics of Canada and the U.S. were the focus; Somin and Buckley wrote in (slightly) more general terms, but that should not have obscured their meaning — unless you didn't read what they wrote, or read only what I re-posted…

Originally posted by jax:

In principle impeachment would be effectively the same as a vote of no confidence […]

It would, if "no confidence" were prescribed grounds for impeachment!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

You blithely wallow on a fake intellectualism and unfortunate you are not aware it is obvious to all normal folk. You also unfortunately hav a trait often found in Americans (not all of course) of seeing criticism of America's dubious role in the world as a lack of understanding, intelligence, education or whatever comes to mind to justify your want to control.

I gave you three short pieces that relate to our disagreements about democracy, which you chose not to read. Fair enough: You can keep to your child-like conception. But its no use, when trying to understand the real world; not yours and, certainly, not mine:
You can't make caricature seem criticism when the distortions and exaggerations are the result of your poor vision, rather than wit and witness.

Sorry about this post...just realized it's not about fleedom!

A la...

'Flee-dom' at midnight yesterday:
According to BJP the current government in power should quit and fresh elections should be held. Opposition leader Arun Jaitley said that the government created a disturbance with the help of a friendly party to run away from vote. He said that If it was freedom at midnight on August 15,1947, it was 'flee-dom' at midnight yesterday.

Oh Heavens you give me a big laugh every time you wallow in your self-opiniated rare atmospheric intellectuall twaddle, OakdaleFTL. You do really need to get out the house more - get a pair of good boots. Well, I do think you are momentus rambler.........

"Every time you wallow in your self-opiniated rare atmospheric intellectuall twaddle"… You're dangerously close to "word-salad" again, RJ! (When the men in the white coats come for you, I'd be happy to speak on your behalf — at least, regarding this: The truth is, you've simply never learned to express yourself adequately with words. The noises you make –and transcribe, as best you can– are simply your attempt to fit in… )

The men in the white coats OakdaleFTL are far too busy across the pond where head-shrinkersare big businesss and so many are nut jobs they need mental advisors. Yep, some country. Didn't know you had joined those failures? Fit in with what - who? I am my own man and I can take it as well aqs dish it out. You lot wouldrun crying to a head dealer! You don't really answer anything you don't like or agreewith. Instead you fall back on a bit of head butting. However I wouldn't want to be unfair and take advantage of your mental gaps and inablity of a proper answer. Maybe a pysologist would be chaeper and I could send a donation to help as I am a generous man in trying to be a help.

RJ. if you want to send me money I'll take it! (I think I'd make better use of it than any —would you care to name them?— you'd gladly give to… And I have not your affliction: Being anti-American.

I don't know how you learned to be so vile and disrespectful to America and the American people. I suspect that you think you know your own people well. (I think you don't.) Can you not find a way to feel good about your own without a scape-goat? (You're not German, of that generation, are you?)

Originally posted by rjhowie:

The men in the white coats --- are far too busy across the pond[,] where headshrinkers are big business and so many are nut jobs they need mental advisors.

Your source for this psycho-metrical slur, sir?

You mentioned that the inspiration for Sherlock Holmes was a Scot… You remain incredibly ignorant. (You could, of course, explain yourself… Tell the world why what you said was correct. I'll wait.)

Would you care to mention why the U.S. (and Israel) so bother you? Your country (hey, you can't just claim to be a Scot, now…) did worse for far longer…
If you haven't commited hari kari, you obviously aren't sericous about honor. So, tell us: What are you going on about?

Originally posted by OakdaleFTL:

You mentioned that the inspiration for Sherlock Holmes was a Scot… You remain incredibly ignorant. (You could, of course, explain yourself… Tell the world why what you said was correct. I'll wait.)

I'll save you the time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Bell

Originally posted by johnnysaucepn:

I'll save you the time

You've saved RJ the time… At least. Oh, well.

Well now OakdaleFTL, you may want to rescind what you said about ignorance as I was coming from a strong base. The ignorance has been well and truly yours, mouthing off automatically! This wee country has produced so many famous people and even supplied you lot with some Presidents too. I acept the anti- accusation as long as you are bright enough to know that it the country body politic and not the poor unfortunates that have to live in a controlled State?!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Well now OakdaleFTL, you may want to rescind what you said about ignorance as I was coming from a strong base. The ignorance has been well and truly yours, mouthing off automatically! This wee country has produced so many famous people and even supplied you lot with some Presidents too. I acept the anti- accusation as long as you are bright enough to know that it the country body politic and not the poor unfortunates that have to live in a controlled State?!

O.o dude, the presidents are purely American(mind you cept the current one.) so your logic has been poked.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

[…] the poor unfortunates that have to live in a controlled State?!

Would you care to explain the excess of surveillance in the U.K. to us, your poor cousins? (And how it is that truth is still no defense against the charge of slander/libel? )

Originally posted by OakdaleFTL:

Originally posted by rjhowie:

[…] the poor unfortunates that have to live in a controlled State?!

Would you care to explain the excess of surveillance in the U.K. to us, your poor cousins? (And how it is that truth is still no defense against the charge of slander/libel? )

I had to look it up. I know London has a reputation for being over-run with cameras these days, seems the highways are loaded with them too. I wasn't sure about Glasgow, so I looked it up. Sure enough, spyguy has his eye in the sky there too. Speedcams in one location at least, and you can have a look-see yourself if you're of a mind to do it in Glasgow's shopping district. Just so's you know, I am referring to the one in Scotland. The Glasgow that's in Kentucky has cameras too, seems we're not to be out-done.

Chicago is filthy with police cams, and the Rahmulan Emperor wants to install more of them. Before long, it'll be as big a fishbowl anywhere in Chicago as it is supposed to be in London.

OakdaleFTL. The USA has more spy organisations than even the Nazis had in the Third Reich. For all the high faluting stuff in the Constitution, anyone unfortunate enough to be labelled a radical can be assured of being spied on by the CIA, FBI, Secret Service, Homeland Security, Treasury Dept, Drugs Agency, etc, etc and old Uncle Tom Cobley and all. I doubt if any other nation has as many as you have. People have been hounded for opinions, harried, had to fight for declared Constitutional rrights in courts and so on. Now the Net is one they would love to get control over. For a country that yaks so much about freedoms and so on you have an awful lot of spy agencies. The Patriots Act is only the tip of the iceberg.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

OakdaleFTL. The USA has more spy organisations than even the Nazis had in the Third Reich.

You know this, how?

Too damn stupid to want to answer that one. You are obviously one of the brained over there if you do not realise just how many spy organisations you have. Everyone else is on short lists but you people near a whole phalanx of such organisations to keep you in check.

I think the Nazis had the SS (a couple of branches of these, if I remember reading right) the SA (wiped out by the SS) and the Gestapo. That's about it. As much as I hate to agree with RJH in his America-bashing, in this case he has a point. Right now we have CIA, FBI, TSA, DEA, ATF, NSA and God only knows what all else. Most of that isn't spying on Americans, but FBI has done it and TSA is notorious for its deeds these days. Run afoul of the Homeland Security guys and you have a problem.

Ah! I see now: It's not about political prisoners or prisoners of conscience… It's how many bureaucracies (large or small, useful or duplicative) there are in the phone book. (Does the budget matter? ) Do you measure the portion of your population that preys upon the meek because your police can't or won't do their job? Nah. They're mostly make-work jobbers in the multicultural whirlpool that drains the lifeblood of the elderly Western societies.
And of course it isn't about liberty or freedom or whatever word they're using in Great Britain nowadays… (May I suggest –to keep but slightly above the curve– you use dawah, since takfir is inevitable? Have you considered the benefits of taqiyya? You might as well learn the lingo, RJ.) It's about envy, for RJ… What a pityfull emotion!

Perhaps this question deserves a poll?

Seriously, are Americans too much spied and put-upon by their country's spy/police organizations? Compared to whom?

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

As much as I hate to agree with RJH in his America-bashing […]

How many of our agencies recently practiced genocide? Ran concentration camps?
Not to put too fine a point on it: Who gassed Jews, Russians, Romanians, Romas (Gypsies), homosexuals, idiots and communists?

(Groan). Delusion alive and well........

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

I think the Nazis had the SS (a couple of branches of these, if I remember reading right) the SA (wiped out by the SS) and the Gestapo. That's about it.

For the final word about that I recommend to read The Schellenberg Memoirs. Walter Schellenberg was precisely the man that reorganized German's secret services for the National Socialist regimen. Basically they didn't had nothing at a decent level before that.

Quiet interesting character, Schellenberg. He was Coco Chanel's lover.

Originally posted by OakdaleFTL:

Who gassed Jews, Russians, Romanians, Romas (Gypsies), homosexuals, idiots and communists?

Youre knowledge is amazing Are you sure you didn't miss a dozen of other nations as well?

interpool will never run its own countrymen.

Ah shows what you choose to ignore OakdaleFTL. You stil have an operational concentration camp on a stolen bit of Cuba (where you aren't wanted). Where you of course practice torture in the name of demcoracy, blah, blah.

May I also remind you that after World War 2 ended almost 900,000 German soldier prisoners of war held by the Americans died in their camps. Even officers who protested at the conditions, starvation and ill-treatment were warned to keep their mouths shut. I also have the excellent book published giving details. A complete contrast to the camps supervised by GB. If you like I will search the book out it is a paperback and you may want to save your pennies and buy a copy. Very revealing. Pictures, reports, details, numbers the lot. Something that has been kept from Americans who know nothing about it. We are talking about ordinary soldiers here so there you are a vivid contradiction.

And anyway you might explain why the land of the free needs so many spy agencies that watch and subtley control? Try and explain the German deaths if you can.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

And anyway you might explain why the land of the free needs so many spy agencies

The natural laws of bureaucracies were well described by C. Northcote Parkinson, long ago…

Originally posted by rjhowie:

May I also remind you that after World War 2 ended almost 900,000 German soldier prisoners of war held by the Americans died in their camps […] If you like I will search the book out

No need, RJ. Surely, you mean James Bacque? Are crank histories a hobby of yours? (Silly question, I know. Of course they are…)

Originally posted by rjhowie:

You stil have an operational concentration camp on a stolen bit of Cuba (where you aren't wanted). Where you of course practice torture in the name of demcoracy (sic), blah, blah.

As usual, your nuanced view is the equivalent of a cudgel to the back of the head. You could learn something about Gitmo, even from Wiki! But unpacking the many falsehoods you proclaim would be quite tedious; and assuredly pointless…

Again, I ask: Whence your animosity towards the U.S.? There must be some explanation…

Originally posted by OakdaleFTL:

Again, I ask: Whence your animosity towards the U.S.? There must be some explanation…

Scottish dyspepsia, Oak, Scottish dyspepsia. Add to that the well-known fact that we are an evil people, and that some folks read to believe. Bible readers are an example. Forty days and forty nights, and the entire earth was flooded, so Noah....yadda, yadda.

Beam me up, OakdaleFTL.

Originally posted by jbrothernew37:

Forty days and forty nights, and the entire earth was flooded, so Noah....yadda, yadda.

Sheesh! Another crank history book?

New Orleans panel conclusions regarding Other Losses The New Orleans panel's book introduction concluded "[t]hat Bacque is wrong on nearly every major and nearly all his minor charges seem to us to be overwhelmingly obvious. To sum up: Eisenhower was not a Hitler, he did not run death camps, German prisoners did not die by the hundreds of thousands, there was indeed a severe world food shortage in 1945, there was nothing sinister or secret about DEF designation or about the Other Losses column. Bacque's "Missing Million" were old and young boys in the militia dismissed early from the American camps; they were escapees from camps and POWs/DEFs transferred from camp to camp in Germany and Europe for various reasons."[43] Villa states that "James Bacque's Other Losses illustrates what happens when the context surrounding historical persons and important events is lost. The effect to give known facts a twist that seems dramatically new in important ways, but this is means appearance of originality is a little deceptive. For the most part, Bacque's book is not very original at all. When it seems so, the price is purchased at the price of accuracy."[44] He further stated that "[t]hose parts of Other Losses that might rise above a failing grade in an undergraduate term paper are not new. It has long been known that German prisoners of war suffered terribly at the end of World War II, that they died by the thousands after hostilities ceased in the European theater, and that many were required to work as forced laborers for the victors."[44] The main lines of the story have long been known, written up for example in the extensive German "Maschke Commission" between 1962 and 1975.[44] Villa states that Bacque only adds two "novel" propositions: first, that the number that died was in the hundreds of thousands, and seconds, that these deaths were the result of deliberate extermination on the part of Eisenhower.[44] "The falsity of Bacque's charges can be easily demonstrated once the context, particularly the decision-making environment, is examined."[44]

And...

Originally posted by rjhowie:

May I also remind you that after World War 2 ended almost 900,000 German soldier prisoners of war held by the Americans died in their camps. Even officers who protested at the conditions, starvation and ill-treatment were warned to keep their mouths shut.
.....
And anyway you might explain why the land of the free needs so many spy agencies that watch and subtley control? Try and explain the German deaths if you can.

[F]amines ... killed between 12 and 29 million Indians. These people were, he demonstrates, murdered by British state policy.When an El Niño drought destituted the farmers of the Deccan plateau in 1876 there was a net surplus of rice and wheat in India. But the viceroy, Lord Lytton, insisted that nothing should prevent its export to England. In 1877 and 1878, at the height of the famine, grain merchants exported a record 6.4m hundredweight of wheat. As the peasants began to starve, officials were ordered "to discourage relief works in every possible way". The Anti-Charitable Contributions Act of 1877 prohibited "at the pain of imprisonment private relief donations that potentially interfered with the market fixing of grain prices". The only relief permitted in most districts was hard labour, from which anyone in an advanced state of starvation was turned away. In the labour camps, the workers were given less food than inmates of Buchenwald. In 1877, monthly mortality in the camps equated to an annual death rate of 94%.

And...

Sir Jeffrey Amherst, commander-in-chief of British forces in North America, wrote as follows to Colonel Henry Bouquet at Fort Pitt:"You will do well to try to inoculate the Indians [with smallpox] by means of blankets, as well as to try every other method, that can serve to extirpate this execrable race."

Will "shit happens" suffice? Then you might add malice, too.

But, but, but you got that from Wikipedia! Didn't you read "Why is Wikipedia Censoring Me?" by James Bacque…? You should –at least– have seen the notice

(We wouldn't want to injure the credibility of Wikipedia…)
That tells you something, doesn't it? (Who cares where Wiki got its stuff…)
If it's on the net, it must be, ah, net-worthy!

Huh? Me? Net-worthy? Whatever do you mean?

Oh! And there was more? I see. Well, if you're going to argue using verifiable examples and logic to — Oh, oh! Is that siren I hear for me?!
… Whew! Guess not. (But it's only a matter of time, I've been told… )

Is The Guardian better?

Britain's secret torture centre
The interrogation camp that turned prisoners into living skeletons
German spa became a forbidden village where Gestapo-like techniques were used
Ian Cobain
The Guardian, Friday 16 December 2005

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/dec/17/secondworldwar.topstories3

I'm at a loss for words.

It could be that war brings out the worse. After all, what were all of the staff in Auschwicz and Buchenwald doing in their villages prior to the war, killing and eating the family pets?

I thought it read "neurality". Geez, sir, geez.

I also have it on impeccable authority that 2,342,211 prisoners taken during the Turnip and Boiled Chicken Wars between Sussex and Wessex were executed by the infamous Farm Yard Drowning Squad commanded by by "Soiled 'Arry" of the Wessex Constabulary.

You will find data in. ...


Damn! I really must get round to making that Wikki entry; maybe if I just copy & paste what I' ve just written. ......

Edit: let me see -

if 0.001% of the world's over-5 population that would make it. ......

Maybe I should make it a round 3 million. . that's a more memorable number. I might score 0.002% then.

Originally posted by OakdaleFTL:

"Why is Wikipedia Censoring Me?" by James Bacque

Because, according Metapedia:

Wikipedia is a far-left and Judeocentric, multilingual wiki project, censured by an internal bureaucracy of tribal editing clans to conform to a largely neo-Marxist and Zionist viewpoint.[1] While the sheer multitude of articles means that some pieces fall outside of this paradigm, where it matters most Jewish ethnocentrism is enforced. The project was founded in 2001 by Jimmy Wales and Larry Sanger, with money obtained through the Bomis pornography ring.

There you have it, what's Wikipedia about.

Ah, well. It's on the web…eh? (According to my Meta-MetaPedia, we're all Bozos on this bus… But some clowns are just too outré to take seriously!)

Originally posted by OakdaleFTL:

(According to my Meta-MetaPedia

Pedias are like Russian dolls my friend...

Originally posted by OakdaleFTL:

we're all Bozos on this bus…

Well, but someone has to be the driver isn't it?

Originally posted by OakdaleFTL:

But some clowns are just too outré to take seriously!)

I see, you're a not a fan of the Théâtre de l'Absurde. I like it, but never before lunch.

Anyway, you are right, culture is not an internet animal, can't be find there.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

I see, you're a not a fan of the Théâtre de l'Absurde. I like it, but never before lunch.

Let's just say I'm not waiting for Godot…

Originally posted by OakdaleFTL:

Let's just say I'm not waiting for Godot…

Who knows? There's always a Godot waiting for you.

He is maybe needing someone to take him out for a walkie in the fresh air rather than waiting ?! To much sitting and pondering isn't good for one.

RJ, you amaze me! (But perhaps not: I might have known you were a Beckett fan… )

Sorry to just jump in without reading the entire thread. But in the UK strong sentences are doled out to petty offences. Bad mouthing a soccer player on Twitter and you will lend about 3 year in jail (news article about a Swansea uni student and twitter). Just search for it tons of hits will come up. On mobile now.

That wasn't for badmouthing the soccer player, but for his vitriolic, racist, offensive replies to reactions reactions he didn't like. Which isn't to say that I support it; the American interpretation of freedom of expression seems much more appropriate.

This is the second time our goodly Portugese, Eternal City apologist has mentioned the tea with the white robed man. Suppose it keeps him nice and cosy?! I'd get worried in case they put Holy Water in my tea (!).

However on a more practical note there is something in the idea of the warped democracy being spewed at us. Often you wonder if being in a proper dictatorship could be adapted to? I suspect as long as shops were open, entertainment, holidays, pubs and so on most would just sally along with it. Indeed I often muse that we are slowly being moving towards such in many places including here in the West and under the false name of 'democracy'. It's rather distracting trying to find a decent dictatorship with this going on?