Muslims-Christians Tolerance

Muslims-Christians Tolerance

Muslims and Christians together constitute over fifty percent of the world and if they lived in peace, we will be half way to world peace. One small step that we can take towards fostering Muslim-Christian harmony is to tell and retell positive stories and abstain from mutual demonization.

I propose to remind both Muslims and Christians about a promise that Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) made to Christians. The knowledge of this promise can have enormous impact on Muslim conduct towards Christians. Muslims generally respect the precedent of their Prophet and try to practice it in their lives.

In 628 AD, a delegation from St. Catherine’s Monastery came to Prophet Muhammed and requested his protection. He responded by granting them a charter of rights, which I reproduce below in its entirety. St. Catherine’s Monastery is located at the foot of Mt. Sinai and is the world’s oldest monastery. It possess a huge collection of Christian manuscripts, second only to the Vatican, and is a world heritage site. It also boasts the oldest collection of Christian icons. It is a treasure house of Christian history that has remained safe for 1400 years under Muslim protection.
The Promise to St. Catherine:


“This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses.

Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.



No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”

The first and the final sentence of the charter are critical. They make the promise eternal and universal. Muhammed asserts that Muslims are with Christians near and far straight away rejecting any future attempts to limit the promise to St. Catherine alone. By ordering Muslims to obey it until the Day of Judgment the charter again undermines any future attempts to revoke the privileges. These rights are inalienable. Muhammed declared Christians, all of them, as his allies and he equated ill treatment of Christians with violating God’s covenant.

A remarkable aspect of the charter is that it imposes no conditions on Christians for enjoying its privileges. It is enough that they are Christians. They are not required to alter their beliefs, they do not have to make any payments and they do not have any obligations. This is a charter of rights without any duties!

The document is not a modern human rights treaty but even thought it was penned in 628 A.D. it clearly protects the right to property, freedom of religion, freedom of work, and security of the person.

I know most readers, must be thinking so what? Well the answer is simple. Those who seek to foster discord among Muslims and Christians focus on issues that divide and emphasize areas of conflict. But when resources such as Muhammad’s promise to Christians is invoked and highlighted it builds bridges. It inspires Muslims to rise above communal intolerance and engenders good will in Christians who might be nursing fear of Islam or Muslims.

When I look at Islamic sources, I find in them unprecedented examples of religious tolerance and inclusiveness. They make me want to become a better person. I think the capacity to seek good and do good inheres in all of us. When we subdue this predisposition towards the good, we deny our fundamental humanity. In this holiday season, I hope all of us can find time to look for something positive and worthy of appreciation in the values, cultures and histories of other peoples.

And another unattributed copypasta from our resident plagiarist

Nice sentiments indeed. I wonder why it does not work in many places.

Maybe because Christians do not have a corresponding text (due to the earlier foundation of the Christian religion) with the Crusades as a consequence?

Originally posted by Macallan:

And another unattributed copypasta from our resident plagiarist

Hate plagiarists, too.

BTW, I discovered something new just yesterday. I'll post the details soon.

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

Muslims-Christians Tolerance

I was laughing till I saw who posted it.

One has to wonder why Danbozo didn't include Judaism into his copypasta?

Originally posted by ensbb3:

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

Muslims-Christians Tolerance

I was laughing till I saw who posted it.

What are you implying then?

Well what religion right across the world is producing lots of bombers, killers and mayhem? Not Christianity, Hinduism or whatever but Islam. It's own written word contradicts much of what has been initially claimed here. Tell that to the Christian community in that paragon of wonderment, Pakistan where Christians have been intimidated, churches have been torched, pastors killed. Typical of a global matter. Even in what might be termed more stable societies in the West in Europe for example they get more and more militant the more they breed. The larger that community gets the more demanding and threatening comes with it.

At first when they move into a country they keep a low profole but as Islam grows so too come the strident words. The demand for special considerations, right to have Shariah Law in a country that isn't theirs. More militants grow on sequence because of the Koran, Quoran or whatever you want to call it. And all this from a self-proclaimed prophet who was a child abuser. What else can you call someone who marries a wee girl? In the EEC a Committee is actually looking into the credibility of doing away with cremations due to the carbon nonense (!). Instead burials at sea would be an alternative. I doubt very much of that is ever going to get credence but wait for it....Muslims would be excepted! It is always the same. They move in and demand a different treatment than anyone else. When in Rome live like the Romans do is beyond the ken. Everywhere in Europe where there is a sizeable and growing Islam their are conflicts and in the future it will break out into something worse as the indigenous popualtion birth rate declines and they breed like rabbits.

Of course no-one with a fair mind would deny moderate Muslims their right to faith and general practice but the Koran bashers hive off them and they are in as much danger as the rest of the non-Islam population. If what was started here was based on wide fact one could go along with it but it is not just a case of rose-tinted glasses but bokers inreality. There is a new Crusade going on but it is an Ismlam led one. I can still remember the wide celebrations and mass crowds filling streets at 9-11. Kind of says it all?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Well what religion right across the world is producing lots of bombers, killers and mayhem? Not Christianity, Hinduism or whatever but Islam.

You mean, not even Islam. You reserve for religion what keener observers attribute to politics.
It's a common failing of Man that they will twist whatever elements of their religion best suits their needs, and ignore the rest.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

At first when they move into a country they keep a low profole but as Islam grows so too come the strident words. The demand for special considerations, right to have Shariah Law in a country that isn't theirs.

Sounds like the British Empire. No wonder you're worried.

While I'm no fan of Sharia Law provisions, them choosing to follow their own cultural guidelines in their own lives is no different from you choosing to abide by the teaching of your Kirk. And the Christian Church is no stranger to terrible abuse to their own, witness the hideous stories of exorcisms and interventions.

Originally posted by DANBUZU quoting I don't know who:

When I look at Islamic sources, I find in them unprecedented examples of religious tolerance and inclusiveness.

I am very tolerant with Muslims and Muslims are very tolerant with me...
So, it doesn't have nothing to do with religions but with location. There are many locations where things work very well while at others it doesn't work at all.

Historically, I'm very much aware about the consensus expert historians have that Islam used to be more tolerant in a general way than Christians were. Not always, but most of time it was somehow true.
So, I agree with the remembering made by the unidentified author that Danbuzu has quoted.

Inclusiveness is a total different story, it never happened. There's no small village here that doesn't have a tragic local legend about the impossible love between an enchanted Moor Princess and a Christian Prince.

It sounds more like America johnnysaucepn if you follow your warped interpretation. We are discussing religion here and what an utter silly thing to say about the Kirk. The Church of Scotland doesn't try folk in some Presbyterian court as Muslims do. Shariah Law is already being practiced in stealth all over England for example illegally. There is nothing comparible in the Kirk not Christianity like it. All the bombings an attacks here have been by Islam as at America, Bali, Spain or a host of places across the Earth. This would-be liberalism attitude is hot air in the face of what is happening. May I remind that a recent survey of young Muslim men (they shove womanhood aside) in Britain wanted more aggressive Islamic stances. And all those young Islamists in Bradford who voted for the meglomaniac, womanising full-of-himself George Galloway did so because he is an Islamist apologist. He plays to their demands and thoughts. Those same young ignored their community leaders because they see him as a great leader of Muslim crusading. I tell you it will get a lot worse in England and Bradford is not the only English town to cease being that. As they breed and grow rapidly the demans will get more determined and shrill. You so goody-two shoed liberal open minds will without fully realising it consign Britain and Europe to something a Hell of a lot worse than a passing forecast by a politician using the Tiber.

Every opportunity to denegrate Christian tradition here is used to replace it with Islam in the anti-Christian bandwagon. Unfortunately one day it will come back to haunt and it will be a very physical and bloody confrontation.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

The Church of Scotland doesn't try folk in some Presbyterian court as Muslims do.

No, they try them in coffee mornings and witch hunts. It's dangerous to generalise from the specific. Just because there have been instances, doesn't mean that "Muslims" do it, nor does it mean that it's an inherent feature of Islam. That's like saying that Muslims don't abuse children, like Christians do.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Shariah Law is already being practiced in stealth all over England for example illegally.

Yes, and it's also true (to a much greater degree) that Sharia Law is not being practiced in stealth all over England.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

All the bombings an attacks here have been by Islam as at America, Bali, Spain or a host of places across the Earth. This would-be liberalism attitude is hot air in the face of what is happening.

It's got nothing to do with liberalism. It's plain common sense. What you are doing is called cherry-picking All the bombing attacks have been carried out by men. Does this mean that men should be chased out of the country? You'll probably also find that they all hold strongly right-wing political views. Shouldn't we chase down all the right-wingers? How many Muslim bombers have there been, compared to the total population of Muslims? How many Christian child-abusers? Are you comfortable with taking on the crimes of a tiny fraction of your kinsmen?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Every opportunity to denegrate Christian tradition here is used to replace it with Islam in the anti-Christian bandwagon.

And every opportunity to denigrate Muslim tradition here is used to replace it with Christianity in the anti-Muslim bandwagon.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Well what religion right across the world is producing lots of bombers, killers and mayhem? Not Christianity

That's not true.
A pro-life Christian just bombed a Planned Parenthood establishment in Wisconsin recently.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Unfortunately one day it will come back to haunt and it will be a very physical and bloody confrontation.

Probably so, yes.
Both Christianity and Islam have a long history of being violent for YHWH/Allah (YHWLAH?)

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black there johnnsaucepn. You have a proud recvord of such cherry picking here yourself so some experience laddie.

And what a rather pointless and desperate comment from thedawgfan. There is no comparison across the world for Islam terrorism like these occasional incidents in the land of nutjobs. To compare such with 9/11, London, Madrid, Bali and all over the world effecting a legion of people is not an equable stance at all. Apart from the fascist work of Israel's Mossad all the wide terrorism is well spear-headed by Islam. There is no Chrisitan equivilant of Ale Queda or the Talaban and others. Right across Britain and even Europe the mushromming Islam world is demanding, threatening and it will get worse. We can't even throw out terrorists here without the Human Rights lot in the Hague screaming blue muredr but the French can!

As Islam grows so too does the militan on it's back and with moderates having to have teeth pulled to seperate (don't want to appear too liberal) it will get worse. It was that militancy being seens in the late teens and early twenties, etc that put that chaplagne Socialist and his wee Respect Party the winner in Bradford West the north of England's answer to having a local Mecca. Galloway is a maddie and uses the Islamic vote to suit himself. Living in a house worth a million and a quarter, using any bandwagon to justify himself. The same man praised Sadaam Hussein to his face and got the rapture of Islam here for example. Talk about using race and religion as a card?! Open your eyes johnnysaucepn. Thankfully neither you nor I will see the day when here the brown fanatics will be the largest group in society. We are declining here and Europe and they are breeding like mad.

We have had our traditional tolerance and welcome serious misued and badly treated. But in the end we will be a more segregated society like much of Northern England and London - well Londinstan which ceased to be English a time ago. It is that mistaken liberalism my friend which has caused this and mutlt-culturism does not work with Islam.Even Trevor Philips your champion who runs that over-subscribed minority staffing level has publically stated so.

Enoch Powell was partly right but even he couldn't have imagines how the counry is being changed into a nation of seperate compartments. He didn't actually use the expression "rivers of blood" but it is the future now.

You can always put a towel in top of your head, control all those Muslims and became RJ Howie of Arabia
Be cautious with that Brough Superior, that's a tricky motorcycle...

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black there johnnsaucepn. You have a proud recvord of such cherry picking here yourself so some experience laddie.

Cherry picking is taking examples that suit your position, and pretending that counter-examples and exceptions do not exist. This is what you are doing.

Even if we accept your argument at face value, that there are no organisations like al-Qaeda or the Taliban in the Christian world (which is untrue, look at the IRA, the KKK, even going back to the Crusaders) your mistake is thinking that is in any way representative of Islam. The Taliban is a single political group in a single country. al-Qaeda have a few hundred operatives, and they target liberal Muslims as much as any other section of society.

These are dangerous people, with dangerous motives. There are individuals and groups within this country that have similar hardline beliefs. They, and the crimes they are capable of (by the laws of our country) cannot be underestimated. But they are a ridiculously small number of people.

The horrors the Taliban are responsible for are their's. What the Taliban does is in the name of the Taliban, just as what the IRA does/did was in the name of furthering IRA goals.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Thankfully neither you nor I will see the day when here the brown fanatics will be the largest group in society. We are declining here and Europe and they are breeding like mad.

Neither of us will see that day, but not due to age. It's not supported by the facts.

Originally posted by johnnysaucepn:

The Taliban is a single political group in a single country. al-Qaeda have a few hundred operatives, and they target liberal Muslims as much as any other section of society.

That's exactly the problem. Liberal Muslims don't target the Al Qaeda.
Thanks to that, fundamentalists are able to export their war all over the world, instead of reducing it to what it is, an internal, Muslim conflict.

And the reason for that it's the Western view, lead by US and ridiculous European leaders, that instead of financing and supporting the appearance of literally hundreds of moderate movements able of fighting and neutralizing internal dangerous extremists, instead of supporting regimens that are able to do it, instead of sieging those few, what they do is to create the conditions for insignificant organizations to export the "revolution" as a consequence of disastrous moves, desire to spent money on military operations that diverts public opinion from what's important and total lack of the needed kind of actions.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

That's exactly the problem. Liberal Muslims don't target the Al Qaeda.

Do you target al-Qaeda? Do you feel you should have to? How would one go about doing that?
Do you target the organisations that bomb clinics?

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Thanks to that, fundamentalists are able to export their war all over the world, instead of reducing it to what it is, an internal, Muslim conflict.

al-Qaeda export their war all over the world because that's what they want. It's not an internal conflict - their aim is to create a New World Order, and to do it by keeping their heads down and spreading as wide as possible. Sure, there are political organisations that could be motivated to tackle al-Qaeda for us - but then, how well has that worked for us in the past?

They don't care whether you're Christian, atheist, or moderate Muslim - you're all traitors and heretics, and must be brought under the heel.
Where rjhowie and I differ is in our assessment of how likely they are to succeed.

I personaly support not fundamentalism! But as a matter of fact, as history recorded, Muslims and Christians remain in peace throughout the life time of Muhammad (Peace be with him) and the life time of Islamic leaders after him, until the time of Richard 'the lion heart', when he (Rechard) attacked them (Muslims) in the name of saving the holy land from the hand of 'INFIDELS' as he claimed.

So, in a nutshell, what is the difference between Taliban and AlQaeda? And which is which among them?

Originally posted by johnnysaucepn:

Do you target al-Qaeda? Do you feel you should have to? How would one go about doing that?Do you target the organisations that bomb clinics?

What do you mean by that?
The western world targets any organization that uses bombs in its territory, as obvious. Just Police and secret services job, nothing more is needed to prevent it.

Originally posted by johnnysaucepn:

al-Qaeda export their war all over the world because that's what they want. It's not an internal conflict - their aim is to create a New World Order, and to do it by keeping their heads down and spreading as wide as possible. Sure, there are political organisations that could be motivated to tackle al-Qaeda for us - but then, how well has that worked for us in the past?

Al Qaeda, Talibans and other fundamentalist Muslims are Muslims. Therefore it's an internal Muslim conflict in the first place. It affects the liberty and way of life of millions and millions of Muslims that don't desire it.
The place for the Western world to be is on helping and support them to win that battle. It's the Muslim world that has to fight that battle, as so many Muslim countries tries to do. This is a very fundamental thing to start with.
Besides they have a very good advantage over the west for winning that battle. Not having a public opinion that vociferates more than a bunch of chickens constantly.

Originally posted by johnnysaucepn:

They don't care whether you're Christian, atheist, or moderate Muslim - you're all traitors and heretics, and must be brought under the heel.Where rjhowie and I differ is in our assessment of how likely they are to succeed.

Do as I said and you don't have the need to worry on them.

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

But as a matter of fact, as history recorded, Muslims and Christians remain in peace throughout the life time of Muhammad (Peace be with him) and the life time of Islamic leaders after him, until the time of Richard 'the lion heart', when he (Rechard) attacked them (Muslims) in the name of saving the holy land from the hand of 'INFIDELS' as he claimed.

No. Learn what history records. The year 711 rings you a bell?
Ask cult Muslims, they know it very well. In fact, they were the ones that recorded it. At the time, Christians were not too found of writing...

Originally posted by Belfrager:

What do you mean by that?The western world targets any organization that uses bombs in its territory, as obvious. Just Police and secret services job, nothing more is needed to prevent it.

I confess, my statement was somewhat related to rjhowie comments about Muslims on our own shores being a threat. I thought you were following that thread, that liberal Muslims here should be forced to take a stand. Apologies if I misunderstood.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Al Qaeda, Talibans and other fundamentalist Muslims are Muslims. Therefore it's an internal Muslim conflict in the first place. It affects the liberty and way of life of millions and millions of Muslims that don't desire it.The place for the Western world to be is on helping and support them to win that battle. It's the Muslim world that has to fight that battle, as so many Muslim countries tries to do. This is a very fundamental thing to start with.

That's a fair argument - al-Qaeda and their aims were known about before 9/11, and nothing was done about them, because it was perceived to be a local issue. It was only their attack that made it 'our' problem.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

There is no Chrisitan equivilant of Ale Queda or the Talaban and others

Sure it is; the Vatican from the years of the Crusades to the Inquisition and now to the the raping of young boys and the Catholic Church.
All of which, are and were, terrorism.

As for Prots, one needs look no forther than the KKK or Hitler's Positive Christianity.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Sure it is; the Vatican from the years of the Crusades to the Inquisition and now to the the raping of young boys and the Catholic Church. All of which, are and were, terrorism.

There's no mental institutions on Texas, Mississippi or whatever?

Cannot fault you thedawgfan for your portrayal of the Vatican but in atempting to widen the Christian wrongs by including the Hitler regime as a Prot responsibility is nonsense. Hitler. Hess, Goebells, Goring, Himmler, etc all the top echelons of the Nazi Third Reich State were Roman Catholic christened Although Hitler when it suited sniffed at religion he did once make a speech commending it. Heinrich Himmler's parents were plannig for their son to be a priest. In time the dress black and white uniforms of the SS were taken as an inspiration the then discipline and res of the Romanist priesthood.

The KKK are an abomination and fair enough on that one but there is no basis for the Nazi nonsense. Thankfully the KKK were another of the many examples of the nut jobs that America has so often produced that wasn't exported. Thanks for keeping it to yourselves. A country that could produce 2,000,000 such pokey-hatted imbeciles has something inherently wrong with it.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

including the Hitler regime as a Prot responsibility is nonsense.

No, the man justified his actions by what he called "Positive Christianity". Here, have a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Hitler. Hess, Goebells, Goring, Himmler, etc all the top echelons of the Nazi Third Reich State were Roman Catholic christened Although Hitler when it suited sniffed at religion he did once make a speech commending it. Heinrich Himmler's parents were plannig for their son to be a priest. In time the dress black and white uniforms of the SS were taken as an inspiration the then discipline and res of the Romanist priesthood.

All of which were Christians nonetheless. Catholics are Christians as well.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Thanks for keeping it to yourselves.

You have your own lot, they go by the name of the BNP:

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Catholics are Christians as well.

When I grow up I want to be an atheist. They are so much intelligent...

Standing down from this one.

Originally posted by Yoda:

Fair and balanced, this is not.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Catholics are Christians as well.

When I grow up I want to be an atheist. They are so much intelligent...

We suspect you'll never grow up, much to your benefit.

Religions, all of them, are too daft to comment, so I will.

Jesus, a divinity, is the son of god. His mother was a virgin, but as a member of the divine tribune he always existed...hence no need for a mother. Clearly, then, it benefits believers not to be too intelligent..and while I don't actually believe that (there are plenty of intelligent believers), it's clear to me that one can easily put intelligence aside for the sake of deeply held beliefs when they resonate strongly.

Originally posted by jbrothernew37:

We suspect you'll never grow up, much to your benefit.

and I love it, still rocking all over the place, eh eh.

Originally posted by jbrothernew37:

Jesus, a divinity, is the son of god.

Not exactly, but you must remember the Holy Trinity from the Catholic old times of yours.
You will pardon me, I know that's nothing of my business, but many times I suspect that the hole thing was never very well explained to you. That's the worst thing than can happen and what leads to so much misinterpretation. Either for Christians, Muslims or atheists.

Being today Sunday of Resurrection, maybe its allegorical intense power can help so many disorientated people. By Resurrection, we are not talking about a dead body that stands up and walk, that would be a zombie isn't it? As the Pope said today, the sense is that with Resurrection, life became stronger than death, good stronger than evil, love stronger than hate, truth stronger than lie and darkness dissipates from our souls. That's the message, as simple as that.
Let peace be with you all.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

As the Pope said today, the sense is that with Resurrection, life became stronger than death, good stronger than evil, love stronger than hate, truth stronger than lie and darkness dissipates from our souls. That's the message, as simple as that.

Life must've been truly awful before 30 AD.

Also, happy Pesach!

Originally posted by Belfrager:

When I grow up I want to be an atheist. They are so much intelligent...

Well, y'all aren't special or anything. Y'all may have one of the oldest Christian traditions, but you're Christians nonetheless.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Let peace be with you all.

To you as well.
May reason one day enter into the equation for you in the religious-phere.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Life must've been truly awful before 30 AD.

Here he comes Frenzie with his little details just for ruining my beautiful theories...
Well, in that case, is not 30 AD but 33 AD

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

May reason one day enter into the equation for you in the religious-phere.

Oh, but it does thedawgfan, it surely does.

Starting from creation, that is from the world and from the human person, through reason alone one can know God with certainty as the origin and end of the universe, as the highest good and as infinite truth and beauty.

Then, you have faith, a different story.

Well that point thedawgfan about Romanism being Christian is open to debate. Just because it suits the anti-religion mob here or the liberal brainwashing of today doesn't make it definitely so. You very neatly of course dismiss the situation regarding Romanism and Nazism or Fascism. So of course for your slanted opinion (which you have the right to express) is done to bolster your onslaught. I have always argued that Roman Catholicism is a mixture of Christianity and paganism. The prayer beads the worship Mary cultish stuff the Papal dress is all derived from Balylonian and other non-Christian religions who also had beads and worship of a virgin mother and birth. Transubstantation, Mariolatary, praying to the dead the "saints", fancy rituals, preposterous Vatican title claims and the rest. Chrisitan? Even the ascension into Heaven of Mary is made-up. Nothing in the Bible at all they just add on things. The Confessional is another arrogance as no man should come between God and man so what right does an earthly man have to "wipe out sins?? Wherever there is a high crime rate you will find a sizeable RC population! Never mind the open worshipping of statues (which they often deny although some lost toes with the kissing over centuries). Likewise the Mass is another sadness where a priest sacrifices Christ?

Not that I would deny them the right to worship in a free society any more than you anti-relionists but as a pristine Christian tradition it is certainly not. Romanism with it's strict hierachial system and control has always found itself a secure home in dictatorships. Very little of it is in keeping with the simple message of Jesus Christ at all. It has also officially a political State whilst being a church which is a nonsense. Like Mormonism, it has added and footered about with simple Christianity as that wasn't even for the so-called princes or leaders of the church and that to be able to control, corrupt and misuse the message of the man from Galilee.

Oh Jaybro I do hope you exercise the same forthright stances to any in your family who may be of the red socks man's following?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Well that point thedawgfan about Romanism being Christian is open to debate. [... all the rest]

It seem that Jews, Christians, and Muslims hate each other (more of Muslim vs. Christians) since they share the SAME God. God / Holy Spirit (well the father anyways not Jesus) is Allah is God. They are all based on the Old Testaments of the JewIt seem that Jews, Christians, and Muslims hate each other (more of Muslim vs. Christians) since they share the SAME God. God / Holy Spirit (well the father anyways not Jesus) is Allah is God. They are all based on the Old Testaments of the Jews.

No, that is too simple an equasion or stance to take on hating. Certainly there are those who do and they are practicing it via one particular relgion all over the damn place. In the cilised world it has not been the picture you have painted but I do think in the future there will be a greater confrontation but something worse. And in any case the generalisation about the Bible is incorrect as Christianity has the New Tesatament (the other two don't!) which it is based on with the Old Testament as a history and precursor so it cannot be shoved in with Judiasm and Islam in the same way at all.

Yes but there is no denying the God and Allah is the same. Even Mohamid said so. Think of it, if Jesus and he was visited by the same God (he said Jesus was a prophet like him and not the son of God. I think that irked the Christians), it stands to reason that God and Allah is one and the same.

Christianity is still essentially the New Tesatament and talks about loving your enemy. The Koran doesn't do that. It includes reminding that those who oppose or disagree with Islam are to be treated as rubbish and if need be dealt with physically or even destroyed.Hardly a peaceful entreaty one would have thought? In it's attitude via Shariah, rights of women and the rest it is not compatible with democracy at all. Neither do I accept that a man starting a religion and who is apparently got the appearance of a pedophile with such a wee girl as wife is the same as any God-like based faith. They may claim so but their demands, threats and declarations against non-believers shows something different. This can be seen in the ever rising Islamification of Europe and here in Great Britain. They misuse our welfare uase our fre society to shriek threats and demands or else.

Both Sir Winston Churchill and Enoch Powell in giving early warnings were right on and we are now reaping it with worse to come.

Exactly! Muslim and Christianity, although based on the same God is so different. However, based on my interpretation (we studied the different religion in class) jihad means an INTERNAL struggle against evil and your own fight to be faithful to Allah. However, the religious leaders twisted it to mean a fight to convert people to muslim and eradicate anybody who's not muslim.

Universally, every religion should tolerate every other religion. That means: discuss and argue... do not do violence against one another.

Proofs are hard to come bye. One proof against any religion is if it tells its followers to hurt non-followers.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Christianity is still essentially the New Tesatament and talks about loving your enemy. The Koran doesn't do that. It includes reminding that those who oppose or disagree with Islam are to be treated as rubbish and if need be dealt with physically or even destroyed.Hardly a peaceful entreaty one would have thought?

Really? I suppose you'd be able to furnish us with the correct passage that says that?
And in return, I'll show you Biblical passages that say the thing.

Can I ask you whether or not you subscribe to the theory that the New Testament completely replaces the Old? Having been brought up Church of Scotland myself, I will assume that you stand by the teachings of the Old. In which case, you'll be familiar with laws and exhortations just as bad, and in some cases worse, that in the Koran.

Honestly, if there's one thing that can be learned from both texts, it's that what the texts say have very little influence on how they're deployed. When a text says that one should strive to fight evil, whether you interpret it as a call to become a judge, a politician, a soldier or an exorcist is up to you. There will be many people trying to convince you that their interpretation is correct. Aggressive Muslims and Christians both use passages from their beloved books to justify war.

What you'll do is refer to the Old Testament actually and you know fine well the essence of Christ's message has no comparison with Islam nor the Koran whatsover. The New testament does not rant about killing unbelievers, treating people like idiots and all the rest of such. The Koran has no equivilant of the Testament therefor we have to accept it as one thing unlike the Bible. How you can however compare the Christianity (it didn't exist in the Old Testament) New Testament with the Koran full stop is damn silly in tthe extreme.

What you'll do is refer to the Old Testament actually and you know fine well the essence of Christ's message has no comparison with Islam nor the Koran whatsover. The New testament does not rant about killing unbelievers, treating people like idiots and all the rest of such. The Koran has no equivilant of the Testament therefor we have to accept it as one thing unlike the Bible. How you can however compare the Christianity (it didn't exist in the Old Testament) New Testament with the Koran full stop is damn silly in the extreme.

You think you Christians are sooo peaceful. Well take a look at the Crusades, which is similiar in nature to the Jihad of the Muslims. The cruelity of the religion depend on your interpretation of the written material.

And the real meaning of Jihad is struggle against evil (like temptation, etc) but it is eventually interpreted to mean holy war and the evil came to be anybody not Muslims.

If you want to get closer to the attitudes of anything, in this case TOLERANCE--an attitude--------tolerance can be further understood if you can understand something about the founders of each organization, religion, or belief.





Who - and What - Was Jesus Christ?






Muhammad was a Forgiving Man


Make up your own mind....

I know what I believe, but saying won't change anything, so you make up your own mind.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

What you'll do is refer to the Old Testament actually and you know fine well the essence of Christ's message has no comparison with Islam nor the Koran whatsover. The New testament does not rant about killing unbelievers, treating people like idiots and all the rest of such. The Koran has no equivilant of the Testament therefor we have to accept it as one thing unlike the Bible. How you can however compare the Christianity (it didn't exist in the Old Testament) New Testament with the Koran full stop is damn silly in the extreme.

Yes, I think I was clear I was referring to the OT. So, to re-ask my question, you are saying you refuse to accept the teachings of the Old Testament? Doesn't that exist in your Bible? Because it did in mine, and as I said, I was brought up in the same church as you.

Originally posted by http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Deu&c=13#top:

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
[Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth;

Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

If thou shalt hear [say] in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
[Certain] men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, [if it be] truth, [and] the thing certain, [that] such abomination is wrought among you;

Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that [is] therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do [that which is] right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

Of course I note the Old Testament but it is a prelude to the Messenaic period and it is the coming of Christ that is improtant. Jesus Christs was based on peace and fairness. And again when you look at the Koran which is not equitable to the New Tesatment as a direction of some reasonableness, it is full of lack of rights, treatment of women, non-Muslims, vengeance, stoning to death (including women again), cutting parts of the body off, etc. Maybe Jesus lost his way on such?

Well how can you explain the Witch trials, supposedly based on evidence in the Bible. Also, three wives, lack of rights for women, are the interpretation of later clerics. How about Christians? Women didn't have rights until much later in the 18th Century.


Cutting off body parts, I belive existed much earlier (the eye for an eye rule of Babylon). Also, the Puritans, a group of devout Christians believed that all fun things is a crime and tried to outlaw Christmas, plays, etc (Oliver Cromwell).

Originally posted by wikipedian:

Well how can you explain the Witch trials, supposedly based on evidence in the Bible.

Key word....supposedly.

Nowhere will you find any such direction.

Directives, if so perceived, are not via fact or truths, but through misinterpretations.

Men are human, & in so being are not perfect.

History is replete with instances where man had taken information---like the Bible & other Religious works---& errantly interpreted them to justify the fulfillment of their own goals, as if it were sanctioned somewhere by those texts---which they were not.

They were attempting to justify their own perverted motives & agendas, not following legitimate Biblical directives.