Welcome to the EU...or not

Welcome to the EU...or not

I'd like to know what our European members think about the accession of Turkey to the EU.

I found the following declaration troubling:

Article 301 states that "a person who publicly insults the Turkish nation, the State of the Republic of Turkey, or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey, shall be punishable by imprisonment of between six months and two years"

As an aside, I found this interesting:

According to the Transatlantic Trends Survey (2010) issued by the German Marshall Fund (GMF), there has been a recent and significant change in the Turkish people's view on the EU: GMF found that the Turks' positive opinion dropped from 73% in 2004 to 38% in 2010.

I'm protesting the poll due to a lack of a option.

Originally posted by jbrothernew37:

I'd like to know what our European members think about the accession of Turkey to the EU.

I found the following declaration troubling:

Article 301 states that "a person who publicly insults the Turkish nation, the State of the Republic of Turkey, or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey, shall be punishable by imprisonment of between six months and two years"

Yeah, there's more like that, their human rights record and what's going on in Kurdistan which doesn't sit well with the EU establishment. On the other hand they made quite a bit of progress ( like abolishing capital punishment and such ). Then of course there's plenty of anti-muslim bigotry going around which is probably more of a reason for the EU dragging its collective feet here than anyone would be comfortable to admit. Finally, Turkey would be another heavy weight member which would mean further loss of influence & control to the existing heavy weights.

Well I wish we weren't in the EEC and I sure as goodness don't want Turkey in it.

There's no EU and Turkey knows it.
I wonder what the Southern countries are waiting for to declare immediate secession from the Northerner's deviation of the European Project.

Will they declare a confederacy?

PS Italy was a founding member.

What are you laughing about?
Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece represents together more than 150 million consumers. Their economies can provide all the necessary industrial, technological, agricultural, fishing, infra-structures and service's range for entirely supplying the emergent second world needs, where the real possibilities are, as well the developing third one.

Natural diplomatics, historical relationships and mutual trust makes this group a preferred interlocutor for South America, Africa and Asia.

Unlike the South that doesn't need Northerns for nothing, German needs desperately these 150 million consumers as well as preventing them to get individual or group strategies. They've been doing nothing but that.

Quiet interesting an eventual entrance from another Mediterranean civilization, Turkey, to this group. Very interesting, indeed.
But first, get rid of Germany and it's satellites.

And speaking about Italy, there's several indications that Italy leadership is understanding very clearly what I'm saying, others will follow, the process is unstoppable.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

I'm protesting the poll due to a lack of a option.

Pay attention, Sirrah!

Well aren't Portugal, Spain, Italy7 and Greece a(ong with Ireland) are the worst messed up countries of the EEC?

Originally posted by Belfrager:

What are you laughing about?
Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece represents together more than 150 million consumers. Their economies can provide all the necessary industrial, technological, agricultural, fishing, infra-structures and service's range for entirely supplying the emergent second world needs, where the real possibilities are, as well the developing third one.

Natural diplomatics, historical relationships and mutual trust makes this group a preferred interlocutor for South America, Africa and Asia.

Unlike the South that doesn't need Northerns for nothing, German needs desperately these 150 million consumers as well as preventing them to get individual or group strategies. They've been doing nothing but that.

Quiet interesting an eventual entrance from another Mediterranean civilization, Turkey, to this group. Very interesting, indeed.
But first, get rid of Germany and it's satellites.

You know what, most germans would probably cheer you on when you leave. Less EU subsidies to pay for.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

What are you laughing about?
Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece represents together more than 150 million consumers. Their economies can provide all the necessary industrial, technological, agricultural, fishing, infra-structures and service's range for entirely supplying the emergent second world needs, where the real possibilities are, as well the developing third one.

I'm laughing about your north vs. south rhetoric.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Natural diplomatics, historical relationships and mutual trust makes this group a preferred interlocutor for South America, Africa and Asia.

Natural diplomatics, historical relationships and mutual trust sounds like promising arguments but I wouldn't overstretch them.
Argentina to expropriate Repsol oil subsidiary YPF
As for Africa and Asia it will be even harder...
Nevertheless I wish you luck.
For the present I'm very sceptical about the EU especcialy about its currency union. Theoretically it only could work with an operative central government (no sovereigns national states/interests). Such a central government would have a questionable legitimacy/representation and it easily could turn into a dictatorship.
Besides, it would assume the transfer of technology and money into weaker regions.
Wonder how many of all the EU enthusiasts would agree unhesitating to such conditions.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I'm laughing about your north vs. south rhetoric.

Time to wake up then. But of course, why should you wake up when the dream is so pleasant...

Originally posted by Macallan:

You know what, most germans would probably cheer you on when you leave. Less EU subsidies to pay for.

The day 150 millions leave, half of Germans will go to unemployment. They can always eat BMW's and submarines however.
(When I have the time I'll post a letter written by a German to the Greeks, complaining exactly about what you are saying, and the answer from a Greek to the Germans, as published by Stern I think. It resumes everything.)

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Well aren't Portugal, Spain, Italy7 and Greece a(ong with Ireland) are the worst messed up countries of the EEC?

You are no integral part of EU. Spare me your "analysis" rjhowie, have some tea and relax. And ask your government why aren't you a full EU member.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I'm laughing about your north vs. south rhetoric.

Time to wake up then. But of course, why should you wake up when the dream is so pleasant...

I never said the EU is perfect.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

You are no integral part of EU. Spare me your "analysis" rjhowie, have some tea and relax. And ask your government why aren't you a full EU member.

I've seen several instances where the UK used a sneaky tactic of getting something passed in the EU, while later saying "but the EU made us do it" when people in the country complained about it. But what do you mean by an integral part of the EU; Schengen and the Euro?

North versus South? Do we get to see blue and grey again, in a hysterical re-enactment of the Civil War?

Note: Jaybro, I know you started this thread, but-- if Southern Europe and Northern Europe do decide to re-enact the Civil War, how'sabout we sit this one out and let them settle it between themselves?

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I never said the EU is perfect.

Oh but it is supposed to be, the perfect way for Germany getting sovereignty over other countries. That was not European Union initial project.
Even for those who can't see it, it should be enough to read Jacques Delors declarations and his indignation to became aware.

When Germany were the first ones to overpass the established deficit, did they demand for being governed by any foreigner troika? Funny, how they forget things so soon, we don't.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

But what do you mean by an integral part of the EU; Schengen and the Euro?

Yes, to be in and to be out at the same time. UK is never part of nothing, they suspect about everything, and if being part it's always for using it for it's own benefit and nothing else. They are well aware of German's expansionist strategies and that's the first explanation for their position regarding the EU. At the same time they play for the US. The usual from the land of Her Majesty.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Originally posted by Macallan:

You know what, most germans would probably cheer you on when you leave. Less EU subsidies to pay for.

The day 150 millions leave, half of Germans will go to unemployment. They can always eat BMW's and submarines however.

Nonsense. How much of Germany's exports do you think go to the southern EU and why would that stop when they leave?
Goodness, from your posts one could get the impression that Germany invaded and forced Portugal into the EU at gun point.

Turkey has been knocking at the gate for practically half century. At that time the E(E)C consisted of the original six (France, West Germany, Italy, and Be-Ne-Lux). Later the UK, Ireland, Denmark (but not Norway) entered, followed by Greece, Spain and Portugal a decade later (the EU of 12, with France and West Germany dominant). Then Turkey put in the formal bid. The following decade West Germany acquired East Germany, and Austria, Finland, and Sweden joined (but not Norway nor Switzerland), the EU of 15. The following decade the Baltic trio, and the Vysegrad quartet, Slovenia, the Greek-Cypriotic part of Cyprus, and Malta joined, for the EU of 25. Half a decade later Romania and Bulgaria joined for the EU of 27. Now the full decade later Croatia is set to join (Iceland was on a fast track, but an Icelandic application has grown unlikely). Serbia and possibly a few others might join in the coming decade. Turkey is still in membership negotiation.

There are good technical reasons why Turkey can't be a member today, a few of those have been mentioned (and many members were not ready either when they joined, the Balkan ones, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, spring easy to mind). But by the way Turkey has been advancing, most of these technical requirements will be fulfilled. Then there are politics. French politicians have been particularly loud that they don't want Turkey in (several other governments agree, but are largely content with hiding behind France).

One option could be for France to leave the EU, and Turkey to enter. I would quite like that scenario, but for the moment it is not very likely.

Originally posted by Macallan:

Nonsense. How much of Germany's exports do you think go to the southern EU and why would that stop when they leave?

This is the evolution of the balance of payments between Germany and Southern countries together. Now call it a nonsense.

Do you think that's been happening because of what? because some days rains and other's don't?

That would immediately stop the day that, out of that invasion, protectionist measures will prevent Germany of selling a single sausage, as obvious.

Germany can pay her own bills. Additionally, Germany can pay bills of Greece. Potentially, Germany may need to pay bills of Portugal. What a nice member you have in EU! Why are you not happy to be in one team with Germany?

Argument "South provides 150 millions of customers for Germany" sounds like consolation of pride.

Germany may end up getting, through bailout, what it could not achieve through two wars: ownership of the entirety of Europe. You guys-- especially the Southern nations-- appear to be in worse trouble than you're letting on.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/jeremy-warner/9207777/IMF-still-wont-admit-truth-about-the-euro.html


Now, it looks like there's just one thing left for the rest of us to do.

Originally posted by jbrothernew37:

I'd like to know what our European members think about the accession of Turkey to the EU.

I found the following declaration troubling:

Article 301 states that "a person who publicly insults the Turkish nation, the State of the Republic of Turkey, or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey, shall be punishable by imprisonment of between six months and two years"

As an aside, I found this interesting:

According to the Transatlantic Trends Survey (2010) issued by the German Marshall Fund (GMF), there has been a recent and significant change in the Turkish people's view on the EU: GMF found that the Turks' positive opinion dropped from 73% in 2004 to 38% in 2010.

Originally posted by jbrothernew37:

I'd like to know what our European members think about the accession of Turkey to the EU.

I found the following declaration troubling:

Article 301 states that "a person who publicly insults the Turkish nation, the State of the Republic of Turkey, or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey, shall be punishable by imprisonment of between six months and two years"

As an aside, I found this interesting:

According to the Transatlantic Trends Survey (2010) issued by the German Marshall Fund (GMF), there has been a recent and significant change in the Turkish people's view on the EU: GMF found that the Turks' positive opinion dropped from 73% in 2004 to 38% in 2010.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

When Germany were the first ones to overpass the established deficit, did they demand for being governed by any foreigner troika? Funny, how they forget things so soon, we don't.

I don't know about Germany (and France!) but we sure haven't forgotten over here. If you want to focus on contrasts, I'd frame it more as big countries vs. small countries. Portugal, Greece, the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Finland, and Ireland would all be examples of larger small countries. The Netherlands sometimes likes to think of itself as the smallest of the big countries. That may have been true up to and including the '90s; I doubt it still is. We're all in it together "against" the likes of Spain, Italy, France, Germany, Poland, the UK, and in the future Turkey. But if people from southern Europe perceive some kind of north vs. south I suppose it would become a reality.

A few years ago I was speaking to a Portuguese girl and I mentioned I had ancestors from all over the place: my grandfather was from the Netherlands, my grandmother from south Germany. Other family traces a lot to Belgium and Germany, and slightly further back France, Luxembourg and who knows what else. She asked something like "what about Spain or Portugal?" I replied, "no, I don't think so." Somehow this offended her and she went on a tangent about how I couldn't stand the possibility of having ancestors from so far south or something to that extent. I thought it was quite surprising, but I guess perhaps it's something that lives in Portugal. Btw, from my northern point of view, the south starts in Brussels — that's right, I live only half an hour away from the south. For you, apparently the north starts in southern France. Just something to consider I suppose.

Originally posted by jax:

One option could be for France to leave the EU, and Turkey to enter. I would quite like that scenario, but for the moment it is not very likely.

I, for one, welcome our Turkish brothers to the union. The French leaving? That'd be something.

Originally posted by Horncastle:

Let's make no mistake about it - the old Paris Berlin macconique versus the catholics plays a role in the politique of Europe.

By macconique do you mean masonic? If yes, sure it does. At the very end this is nothing but a civilizational clash between the rich protestant north and the Mediterranean civilization.
But I don't want to go so deep for now, so I'll stay at the economical perspective.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

A few years ago I was speaking to a Portuguese girl and I mentioned I had ancestors from all over the place: my grandfather was from the Netherlands, my grandmother from south Germany. Other family traces a lot to Belgium and Germany, and slightly further back France, Luxembourg and who knows what else. She asked something like "what about Spain or Portugal?" I replied, "no, I don't think so." Somehow this offended her and she went on a tangent about how I couldn't stand the possibility of having ancestors from so far south or something to that extent. I thought it was quite surprising, but I guess perhaps it's something that lives in Portugal.

She was not offended, she was having fun provoking you in a way that you couldn't even understand. What she was saying is if you only have northern roots you are a barbarian. You'll learn Frenzie.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Btw, from my northern point of view, the south starts in Brussels — that's right, I live only half an hour away from the south. For you, apparently the north starts in southern France. Just something to consider I suppose.

That's a very interesting question, where's the divider. As in any conflict there's a zone known as no one's land. People there always act at very opportunistic way, joining those who seems to have more advantage. That's the case of France.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

She was not offended, she was having fun provoking you in a way that you couldn't even understand. What she was saying is if you only have northern roots you are a barbarian. You'll learn Frenzie.

It's only logical that if you go beyond the extent of the written records in Auvergne (I believe that's where my Huguenot ancestors fled from), you'll find people from further south. I'd also add that south Germany (Ulm) isn't that far from Italy, so logically the same applies. Most of the history and origins beyond my great-grandparents is simply unknown and besides, we're all from Africa. That said, I'm proud to be a barbarian from the same country as such well-known barbarians as Erasmus, Spinoza, and Grotius.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

That said, I'm proud to be a barbarian from the same country as such well-known barbarians as Erasmus, Spinoza, and Grotius.

Spinoza was Portuguese, and raised at the Portuguese Jewish community in Amsterdam, Frenzie...
Of course each one of us is proud of his country.
What we are discussing is the difference from being proud, pretending to dominate others and resisting. Individual behavior doesn't counts but historical, social and cultural reasons do.

Back to EU and Turkey. My opinion is that countries as Turkey (or Russia by the way), is better for both sides to have alliance and agreements with EU than to integrate it as full members. After all EU can't spread all over the planet, I suppose.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Spinoza was Portuguese, and raised at the Portuguese Jewish community in Amsterdam, Frenzie...

Spinoza's father was a Sephardic Jew born in Portugal which he left early as a child.

Spinoza was born to a Marano family in Amsterdam Holland. Fleeing the Spanish Inquisition, his ancestors had settled in Portugal, only to flee the inquisition when it came to Portugal and find shelter in Holland, along with numerous other Spanish and Portuguese Jews, the remnant of the glorious Jewish community that had once flourished in Spain under the Muslims.source

Spinoza was born in Amsterdam and his mother tongue was Spanish.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

My opinion is that countries as Turkey (or Russia by the way), is better for both sides to have alliance and agreements with EU than to integrate it as full members.

Indeed, it is unlikely that Russia will ever become member of EU. Main obstacle here is that Russia builds another economical block around herself (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Economic_Community#Common_Economic_Space).

Joining Turkey to EU seems to be possible theoretically. But practically this ability will depend on whether (and how quickly) Turkish people and government will adjust their society and laws to be compatible with European standards.

Originally posted by Krake:

Spinoza's father was a Sephardic Jew born in Portugal which he left early as a child.
Spinoza was born in Amsterdam and his mother tongue was Spanish.

There is a joke in Russia: Russia is a motherland of elephants. This joke parodies propaganda which claims that all important achievements in the world were done by Russians. I think that there is similar propaganda in all countries.

I don't know whether Spinoza was a Portuguese. But even if so - I think that main achievement of Portugal is not Spinoza, but Brazil. If Brazil will show her full potential in 21st century - all Portugueses will be able to say proudly that they have common history and language.

Citizen of Milan(o) and Barcelona tend to see themselves as Northern Europeans (with some reason), so it is all relative. The only sensible division of Europe in North, East, South, West, and Central would have to be overlapping. Dividing by sea (Caspian, Black, Mediterranean, Atlantic, North, Baltic) makes sense as well.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Back to EU and Turkey. My opinion is that countries as Turkey (or Russia by the way), is better for both sides to have alliance and agreements with EU than to integrate it as full members. After all EU can't spread all over the planet, I suppose.

I have no problem with the United States of the World or the World Union. Of course I recognize that's extremely unlikely in the short term other than by force, which wouldn't be durable.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Spinoza was Portuguese, and raised at the Portuguese Jewish community in Amsterdam, Frenzie...

Yet the freedom of expression he used was only possible in the Republic. But yes, you touch on a very good point there: any Dutch person's ancestors likely came from many different countries, albeit mostly from before America became everyone's favorite destination. Even today Amsterdam still has the most nationalities in the world living in it. I'm afraid that era is bound to end soon, given the current immigration policies.

Originally posted by jax:

Citizen of Milan(o) and Barcelona tend to see themselves as Northern Europeans (with some reason), so it is all relative. The only sensible division of Europe in North, East, South, West, and Central would have to be overlapping. Dividing by sea (Caspian, Black, Mediterranean, Atlantic, North, Baltic) makes sense as well.

I can certainly understand that. I haven't been to Milano, but e.g. Firenze felt significantly more "normal" to me than Roma, and Napoli was off the charts. That other Mediterranean nation, Greece, felt pretty much the same as northern Italy.

Originally posted by sergey-pypyrev:

There is a joke in Russia: Russia is a motherland of elephants. This joke parodies propaganda which claims that all important achievements in the world were done by Russians. I think that there is similar propaganda in all countries.

I cherry-picked good examples. I can give you plenty of bad ones too. We were one of the last in the civilized world to abolish slavery, we started an awful colonial war in Indonesia in the late '40s, we gave Pakistan the bomb…

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Nonsense. How much of Germany's exports do you think go to the southern EU and why would that stop when they leave?

This is the evolution of the balance of payments between Germany and Southern countries together. Now call it a nonsense.

Do you think that's been happening because of what? because some days rains and other's don't?

With no context provided the graph is completely meaningless.
What exactly does it show for starters? Where do the numbers come from? What is included and what isn't? Heck, it's not even clear what the y axis is supposed to be. If it's euros then an annual trade volume of a couple hundred thousands ( with who or what exactly? ) isn't something anyone in .de is going to lose any sleep about, even if you were right.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

That would immediately stop the day that, out of that invasion, protectionist measures will prevent Germany of selling a single sausage, as obvious.

Yup, still nonsense.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

A few years ago I was speaking to a Portuguese girl and I mentioned I had ancestors from all over the place: my grandfather was from the Netherlands, my grandmother from south Germany. Other family traces a lot to Belgium and Germany, and slightly further back France, Luxembourg and who knows what else. She asked something like "what about Spain or Portugal?" I replied, "no, I don't think so." Somehow this offended her and she went on a tangent about how I couldn't stand the possibility of having ancestors from so far south or something to that extent.

Weird. I don't have any (known) ancestry from any further south than central .de either, and those I do know about are mostly from further north. On the other hand, I'm not exactly the stereotypical northerner so the last common ancestor with someone from .pt or .es might not be that far back

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I thought it was quite surprising, but I guess perhaps it's something that lives in Portugal. Btw, from my northern point of view, the south starts in Brussels — that's right, I live only half an hour away from the south. For you, apparently the north starts in southern France. Just something to consider I suppose.

From my point of view 'the south' starts either at the Weißwurstäquator or, if you're further east, at the border between Brandenburg and Sachsen

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by jax:

One option could be for France to leave the EU, and Turkey to enter. I would quite like that scenario, but for the moment it is not very likely.

I, for one, welcome our Turkish brothers to the union.

Same here, economically I doubt they're worse than some others that are already in.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

The French leaving? That'd be something.

Now there's an idea, things might actually get done!

Originally posted by Horncastle:

Let's make no mistake about it - the old Paris Berlin macconique versus the catholics plays a role in the politique of Europe.
I'd like to see Russia join and the capital move from Brussels to Bern or somewhere about Poland.

I think the real reason is that the current heavyweights don't want another heavyweight in the EU.

I'd like to remind everybody where north of Europe is located. It is in Scandinavia and Iceland, not in Germany or Benelux.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by sergey-pypyrev:

There is a joke in Russia: Russia is a motherland of elephants. This joke parodies propaganda which claims that all important achievements in the world were done by Russians. I think that there is similar propaganda in all countries.

I cherry-picked good examples. I can give you plenty of bad ones too. We were one of the last in the civilized world to abolish slavery, we started an awful colonial war in Indonesia in the late '40s, we gave Pakistan the bomb…

My comment was addressed to Belfrager, not to you. I did not notice ego-centrism in your posts. But I did notice ego-centrism (or something similar to it) in posts of Belfrager.

Originally posted by sergey-pypyrev:

I'd like to remind everybody where north of Europe is located. It is in Scandinavia and Iceland, not in Germany or Benelux.

You're talking about a slightly different thing, which makes the Benelux, Germany, France, Switzerland, and Austria (and possibly the UK, Ireland and Iceland) a part of Western Europe, but not Northern Europe. (Which is kinda weird, 'cause Portugal's far more west than any of us.)

Originally posted by sergey-pypyrev:

My comment was addressed to Belfrager, not to you. I did not notice ego-centrism in your posts. But I did notice ego-centrism (or something similar to it) in posts of Belfrager.

I try. But perhaps I also feel more European than some others.

This is somewhat related: the Netherlands and Turkey celebrate 400 years of diplomatic relations.

For what it is worth here are my geographic subdivisions of the European subcontinent:

Northern Europe: The Nordic countries, the Baltic States, Russia, Poland, Germany, Be-Ne-Lux, Scotland (North Sea, Baltic Sea, the White Sea)
Western Europe: Germany, Be-Ne-Lux, France, UK, Ireland, Denmark, Norway, North Atlantic islands (North Sea, North Atlantic)
Southern Europe: Iberian peninsula, France, Italy, Slovenia, the Balkans, Anatolia, Caucasus, Mediterranean islands (the Mediterranean, the Black Sea, the Caspian Sea)
Eastern Europe: European part of former Soviet Union, Sweden, Finland, Poland, the Balkans, Anatolia (White Sea, Baltic Sea, Black Sea, Caspian Sea)
Central Europe: Former Austria-Hungary (or Czech Republic, Slovakia, Austria, Hungary, Slovenia, skipping rest of Balkans and Italy, possibly Croatia and Transylvania), Poland, Germany, Switzerland and Lichtenstein (landlocked area)

It would make sense to subdivide the South into the South-West and the South-East, roughly corresponding to the Western and Eastern Roman Empire. There is also an overlap between Eastern Europe and North, Central, and West Asia. North Africa is also somewhat European.

Originally posted by jax:

European part of former Soviet Union

Shouldn't you call that the (European part of the) Warsaw Pact?

Originally posted by jax:

It would make sense to subdivide the South into the South-West and the South-East, roughly corresponding to the Western and Eastern Roman Empire.

Another way of phrasing that could Romance languages in the west; South Slavic and Greek in the east. (We already put Romania in Eastern Europe, so no need to worry about its Romance language. )

But yeah, I pretty much agree with that I suppose.

M

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Shouldn't you call that the (European part of the) Warsaw Pact?

It is common, given the debilitating effect of 40 years under Soviet rule. But I don't consider the Central European countries of Czech Republic, Slovakia (except perhaps the easternmost part), Hungary, or Western Poland a part of East Europe geographically or culturally. But it is possible to draw the curtain further west. Sweden could be both Eastern and Western Europe.

If the South were to be split into South-East and South-West, it might make sense to rename Eastern Europe into North-Eastern Europe, with a slight overlap to South-Eastern Europe. Greece and Turkey are mostly Eastern Europe geographically.

The Basque and a few other groups excluded the South-West is linguistically fairly uniform. The South-East (Balkan and further east) on the other hand is quite the mix of cultures and languages.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by sergey-pypyrev:

My comment was addressed to Belfrager, not to you. I did not notice ego-centrism in your posts. But I did notice ego-centrism (or something similar to it) in posts of Belfrager.

I try. But perhaps I also feel more European than some others.

You're banned from this private discussion, Frenzie! Mind your Ps and Qs, sir, or more drastic measures may ensue.

Originally posted by jax:

For what it is worth here are my geographic subdivisions of the European subcontinent:

Subcontinent? Europe is not a subcontinent jax, is a Continent.

The South West/South East division is important, I agree, but far less important our days than the North/South.
Anyway your division is very worthy, considering that inside each sub region conflicts between neighbors exists since always, it shows how dreamy is to someone to consider himself an "European". (except for Frenzie, The European.)

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Subcontinent? Europe is not a subcontinent jax, is a Continent.

By convention. I believe Eurasia is the actual geographical continent.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

The South West/South East division is important, I agree, but far less important our days than the North/South.
Anyway your division is very worthy, considering that inside each sub region conflicts between neighbors exists since always, it shows how dreamy is to someone to consider himself an "European". (except for Frenzie, The European.)

This is the Erasmus generation.

By all means divide Europe up jax as long as we aren't in it.