Surprising rebellion in a former Pope's heartland

Surprising rebellion in a former Pope's heartland

Who would once have though it?!

Some 300 Roman Catholic priests now have an association in the Irish Republic against the Vatican. They and nuns have demanded an end to compulsory celibacy as well as allowing female priesst amongst other matters. That's around a third of priests in the country. Towards the end of April a group of priests and nuns had held a night vigil outside the papa Nuncio's residence in Dublin on the Vatican's silencing of priests.

Ireland has had enough of the child misuse, sodomy, seductions. It had 2 recent reports - one for the country and another for the Archdioces in Dublin. Even the head their Cardinal of Ireland is emboiled because when younger as a priest he had bodyswerved knowledge of child abuse going on amongst his fellows when it came up. There was a time when the RC CHurch acted like the Ayatollah in Iran checking all polical moves and the government as a lackey. No more. Even the Prime Minister and his Deputy have spoke out so changes days in what was an RC heartland. Unfortunately for the faithful the RC Church has brought this on itself. The long litany of offences that have kept surfacing has meant a loss of power, respect and Mass attendance.

Decades ago people were too frightened to air what was going on for retribution. The police would tip-toe away on orders higher up. Had it take a stand all those years ago it would probably not be in the situation it is in today. People are better educated, know about modern rights and are exercising themselves. It says something that so many clergy want forced celibacy scrapped and female priests. Celibacy has been the biggest ironic joke on the Church since they introduced it back in the Middle Ages when clergy were married. It has been so widespread a broken stance that they should have thrown it out ages ago. To take a stand in a country once renowned for subserviance to all things Rome says much for their honesty and deep feelings. Anything that breathes common-sense into unbalanced Vatican negativity can only be an improvement. Many RC's have gone from the fold and a few have went over the wall to the tiny Reformed traditions there (under 3 But the leader of the priests association knows that the very future of his Church's credibility is at stake. Decency overcoming pointlessness.

This isn't so surprising. You pointed out yourself that Ireland has come a long way. Actually, people all over the world are fed up with Rome. Check this out, Catholic Church Losing Followers in Droves in Latin America.

"God is being pushed to the backburner," lamented the president of the Episcopal Conference of Costa Rica, José Francisco Ulloa.

But for Elio Masferrer, chairman of the Latin American Religious Studies Association, it is not a matter of a loss of faith, but rather the fact that the Catholic church is losing its traditional hold on what he calls "the religious market".

"If the (Catholic) church doesn't make changes to its centralised structures and authoritarian messages, it will suffer a genuine collapse in Latin America within roughly 15 years," he predicted to IPS.

In fact, Rome might well be inflating its numbers, still counting those who have been baptized RC but have since left the church among its members. They probably still count me as one of their members

Well they do the same here on numbers. The inflated figures here are vastly different from what's locally on the ground. When I was very young, I can remember my father had a magazine that recorded the persecution of Protestants in Columbia and other parts of South America but how different that is now with the rise of the Reformed Faith across the Continent compared to the free fall of Rome. For years that Church was hand in glove with many of the dicatorships in their time. Rome - the same yesterday, today and the future. It is one thing an organisation saying it wants to hold on to basic tenent of it's credence but when such are based on a slippery base less credible.

I passing you are probably correct Sanguinemoon in them still counting on you. It is locked in a corner and of their own doing. As much as I against what Rome stands for I have nothing against the individuals and that decent priests take up a stance on a man made policy (confirmed by a late English Cardinal) says a lot for them.

RJ, why do you hate Roman Catholicism so much? Your lot's religious wars ended long ago… Didn't they?

I don't think it is his lot's lot, though there is not a lot of that lot left by now.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

In fact, Rome might well be inflating its numbers, still counting those who have been baptized RC but have since left the church among its members. They probably still count me as one of their members

Wasn't there a news item about them doing exactly that a few years ago?

For someone who like to assume he is so intellectual and above the common herd you show a singular lack of common sense. You instinctively use the word 'hate'. Show me where once in a thread, I have used that adjective to describe that tradition? I have repeatedly as it happens, stoutly attacked what Rome's organisation stands for on Biblical, historical and political grounds yet at the same time stating that individual RC's are free to do as they wish. Freedom of opinion as well as freedom to challenge is the norm. Likewise in the past my successful community work especially in the youth fiedl is another positive. Sometimes a third of the youngsters in my branch of a national youth organisation were of the RC faith and their parents amongst my strongest supporters. Somehow your strangulated brain has contorted my views into something quite different.

Even in this thread, I have complimented this positive large group of the priesthood because they are right to challenge things that are not rock of the faith but conjured up by an earthly man, namely a Pope who claims all sorts of ridiculous titles, etc. If you cannot see the difference you have more of a problem than I. Of course I will always continue to challenge Rome's stances whilst not disturbing individual's rights to do as they wish. Civil and religious liberty for all but privileges for none. Having had close and firendly relations with a preist and at different times, two nuns socially I have never strayed from my stance as a staunch son of the Reformation and sometimes they have agreed with particular issues. Maybe you need to get out more?

Meantime, back at the ranch so to speak, stats are easily manipulated by anyone for any purpose and this is widespread. Only a third of RC's here actually are in contact with a local RC place of worship. And even more telling is when you see some news item about say the Archbiship in this city or the Cardianl at as ervice and you see that the places are far from full and usually an olderr crowd. It is yet another reason why that Church desperately wants to hold onto a right to RC State Schools the majority population pays for. In fact in most of my youth work when it came to our services the RC members would attend warmly whilst not having been to a Mass for ages. Good luck to these Irish priests they see not only writingon the wall but a crumbling wall. Neither forced celibacy nor female priests are something somehow bad but conctions for ensuring strict control. People and priests are answering with their feet and that we have no no training collegse for their clergy left in this country emphasises the way things are going. You cannot blame thnese clergymen seeing the long history of widespread ignoring of the celibacy nonsense or the rather narrow and bigotted view of women. That we had the first Protestant clergy before WW2 shows how slow and backward the organisation is.

I, of course, wish these probably decent priests every future in their stand and it has been a long time coming and that in is in a land where traditionally Rome has controlled everything (but now now) is to be commended. They should take heed of Martin Luther when told he would be facing Duke George. Martin said that it could rain Duke Georges but he wouldn't yield. As they would say in Glaswegian when into a confronation - "Gie it laldy boys." (!)

I was one of rj's lot, just like Sang was one of the other lot. Perhaps there's inflation on both sides.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Rome might well be inflating its numbers, still counting those who have been baptized RC but have since left the church among its members. They probably still count me as one of their members

I doubt that there's a tally sheet. If there is one, it includes millions of dead Catholics. People who go to church regularly don't have to sign a roster sheet...so far as I know.

Originally posted by jax:

I don't think it is his lot's lot, though there is not a lot of that lot left by now.

We might be talking about the below Lot. That Lot's wife has surely sunk into the sand by now so not a lot left.

Genesis 19:23 KJV "The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar. (24)Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; (25) And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. (26) But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt."

There are an estimated 300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the observable universe. I'll remain silent on the issue of that which lie beyond for good reason.

The number of planets? This is a fool's game, but there is an estimate that there are at least 100 billion stars with planets in our galaxy, and it's estimated that there are as many as 200 billion galaxies in the observable universe

Did Jesus have to die on a cross on all of those that hosted some form of "humanity"?

The absurdity of religions is beyond the imagination.

Originally posted by jbrothernew37:

Did Jesus have to die on a cross on all of those that hosted some form of "humanity"?

The absurdity of religions is beyond the imagination.

:hrmmm: You have a point there, Jaybrah. If there was one Jesus for here, maybe there are multiple Jesuses (Jesusi?) for for the other planets?

Let me check the Book of Raccoon. Here we go...

And lo, the Jesusi were for the men of the planets forged their message of love and tolerance into one of intolerance and political corruption and thus spaketh "Ye, let us bitchslap the Popes upside the head" did bitchslap the Popes. The Popes, in their ignorance did say "Lo, the Satans have bitchslapped us..." The Jesusi did

Of course, the Book of Raccoon is right in all things because I say that it says that it is, so if anyone does't believe it, you're going to get punished for all eternity and stuff...

Wouldn't you have absolutely loved to have had I]Sanguinemoon[/I] in one of your classes, Jaybro? (Or did you never "do" remedial?)

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Who would once have though it?!

Some 300 Roman Catholic priests now have an association in the Irish Republic against the Vatican. They and nuns have demanded an end to compulsory celibacy as well as allowing female priesst amongst other matters. That's around a third of priests in the country. Towards the end of April a group of priests and nuns had held a night vigil outside the papa Nuncio's residence in Dublin on the Vatican's silencing of priests.

Ireland has had enough of the child misuse, sodomy, seductions. It had 2 recent reports - one for the country and another for the Archdioces in Dublin. Even the head their Cardinal of Ireland is emboiled because when younger as a priest he had bodyswerved knowledge of child abuse going on amongst his fellows when it came up. There was a time when the RC CHurch acted like the Ayatollah in Iran checking all polical moves and the government as a lackey. No more. Even the Prime Minister and his Deputy have spoke out so changes days in what was an RC heartland. Unfortunately for the faithful the RC Church has brought this on itself. The long litany of offences that have kept surfacing has meant a loss of power, respect and Mass attendance.

Decades ago people were too frightened to air what was going on for retribution. The police would tip-toe away on orders higher up. Had it take a stand all those years ago it would probably not be in the situation it is in today. People are better educated, know about modern rights and are exercising themselves. It says something that so many clergy want forced celibacy scrapped and female priests. Celibacy has been the biggest ironic joke on the Church since they introduced it back in the Middle Ages when clergy were married. It has been so widespread a broken stance that they should have thrown it out ages ago. To take a stand in a country once renowned for subserviance to all things Rome says much for their honesty and deep feelings. Anything that breathes common-sense into unbalanced Vatican negativity can only be an improvement. Many RC's have gone from the fold and a few have went over the wall to the tiny Reformed traditions there (under 3 But the leader of the priests association knows that the very future of his Church's credibility is at stake. Decency overcoming pointlessness.

IRA?

Yeah, yeah, we know you are a clever man Jaybro and it must be frustrating in a cocooned atmosphere to sigh over lesser silly mortals..Sorry about that one thought it won't make you feel any better.

You've lost nme there Virusboy on that one??

Irish Republic army.

Oh for Heavens sake. We aren't all from the ex-Colonies where ignorance of the outside world is legend! But what the deuce is that answer for throwing in those criminal nutjobs?

Last week there was another meeting of the (R) Catholic Priests Assoc of Ireland and with some non-clergy as well as priests and nuns there were 1,000 in attendance. The future will be most interesting. At one time it was the Bishops and clergy on oneside and the lay on the other. Now it is the pay and the priests and the Bishops and Pope on the other. The more the Irish priests extend then in due time when members of the hierachy retire or die then the RC Church is going to have an increasing problem as many priests will be from the now widespread liberal background of wanting dramatic change. That Church has crucified itself in Ireland through it's own hand and the bad publicity has seen the previous community regard to the priest in a state of freefall and distance. On Sunday, I read a short piece in a newspaper from a nun in a small conservative group order. She has of the view that people know what they are joining so why should the RC Church change? She also belied items like forced celibacy as a tenent of the system. Kind of amusing that considering priests were once married then the Church chang that! How that also equates with married Anglican vicars who went over to Rome on the ordination of women. Not many but throws a spanner in the whole nonsense of celibacy and as one priest has stated here in Scotland who has been in sympathy with the Irish Association the Kirk has had a number of very capable and effective female ministers and doesn't see why the same cannot happen in his corner. However he was told by the hierachy that maybe he should consider leave of absence to take a break and relax.

It has taken a long time for this to reach Ireland and it was no doubt assisted by the terrible reports that came out and the desertions but Rome never likes to admit a wrong and the Vatican infrastructure relies more on resisting common sense and sticking to it's navel gazing.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Oh for Heavens sake. We aren't all from the ex-Colonies where ignorance of the outside world is legend! But what the deuce is that answer for throwing in those criminal nutjobs?

huh?

How simple does this have to be? Why did you mention the IRA??!

would the IRA have anything to do with this?

Have you got a mental stutter or what? Why are you repeatedly answering with that terrorist bunch of rat bags? Elucidate on why you mention that lot. I have now had to ask you yet again what has the IRA to do with this thread??