Who is Going to Create Skins Now?

Who is Going to Create Skins Now?

After uploading a couple of skins that I updated for Opera 12.00 I received a message:

Can you also make sure that your skin only include graphics that are different from the Opera standard skin? This also includes the content of the skin.ini file. It should only include elements that this skin changes.

To do this would require a huge amount of work. It might make sense not to duplicate anything in the standard skin, but from the skin editor's point of view its just extra, and unnecessary work. The fact is, that I have got my skins working satisfactorily for my own use without too much effort. However, I haven't got time to throw away.

I wonder if anyone will now develop skins for Opera with these new stipulations? I certainly will not.

It says "Can you ...", not any sort of stipulation. The idea is obviously to reduce the size of the download as much as possible, which is a good thing if slightly more work ...

If you have a skin which is only intended to add icons for use in custom buttons (and not to change anything else), then your skin only needs those icons, the appropriate lines in the [Images] section, and enough to make it a valid skin that falls back to the original on everything else. If your skin only changes the spacing of some areas on the screen, you won't need graphics at all.

Obviously some people will want to make a skin that looks completely different, and it may not be worthwhile for them to dig through everything to look for half a dozen lines they might be able to remove. But as a lot of the existing skins are only minor modifications of the standard skin, it makes sense to put some effort into reducing the file size.

(The actual graphics should be easy enough, any duplicate file utility should be able to tell you which graphics are the same between yours and the original. I suppose running a diff check on skin.ini isn't that hard either - just remember not to delete the required sections.)

Originally posted by sgunhouse:

It says "Can you ...", not any sort of stipulation.

No. Its compulsory — they won't accept skins that don't follow the new standard.

I'm sorry but this is a requirement to make sure your skin is more future-proof with upcoming versions of Opera

My skins — Classic, Glasses, and DTA — are mods of older skins fixed to work with transparency after the Windows Title bar was made hideable.

I have already spent a few hours making my skins work (see this thread — that's OK, I don't mind a couple of hours. Now I can use them and anyone else who wants to can use them. I haven't got time now to fix them properly — there are still some black toolbars apparently. Maybe I can do that later, but now that they need to be redesigned from scratch to upload to Add-ons — there is no way that I will be doing that.

I suggest that Opera staff start modifying the ten or twenty top rated skins themselves — then they will understand how much work it takes.

I am the developer of D.T.A mod:
http://my.opera.com/community/customize/skins/info/?id=10472

I have tried to re-upload and receive that msg.
I hates the recent change in opera skin and themes. this moves really piss me off.

Skins that only changes a few elements and includes all elements from the standard skin are:

- Much larger than they need to be
- Will almost certainly break in future versions.

If you only want to change a single image or something, create a new skin.in with only those elements changed. It's not hard and helps for future compatibility. Opera has a opera:config#UserPrefs|DebugSkin option that will, when holding Ctrl, give you the name of all skin elements you hover.

We tried to tell people for a long time to only create skins that only includes the elements it actually change, including tutorials on dev.opera.com.

Actually I think the documentation of skin is not enough.

When there is new version of opera, I need to diff the skin.ini. And find out the newly change.
And for those element, I will change the color to red and see what element is that. But sometime I cannot find it.

So I rather just keep using my skin, when I see something broke, just edit that element. I don't have a comparison with that standard skin.

There are a few very decent sites about skin reference. But they are not of latest. I do hope there is more official documentation. The tutorials on opera dev is quite dated. But what I need is a complete reference. The development work is like try and error. For a standard-embracing browser, this should not be the case.

But this is a good push for me to carefully scan each elements of my skin, which I will.

As I said, there is a feature to just hover any element in Opera to find the element name.

Yes, that is useful. When there is new element, I can find its name.
But when I see new element's name in skin.ini, I don't know where the new element is.
Like when I see there are ten new element's names in a new version of skin.ini. I cannot locate them. So I just keep using my skin, until the new thing come up. "Oh, this new thing's style do not suit my skin", and then change it.

Originally posted by mitchman2:

If you only want to change a single image or something, create a new skin.in with only those elements changed. It's not hard and helps for future compatibility.

And what if you want to update one of the modified skins that don't just have a single image changed?

Show us how easy it is by updating the Top 20 most popular skins — then at least users of Opera 12.00 will have some skins to choose from when they visit Add-ons, Themes from the Appearance dialogue.

Since I mentioned "running a diff" in my previous post ... there are several diff programs available for Windows, here is a free one that I have used in the past and found helpfull:

http://www.componentsoftware.com/products/csdiff/

Diff itself is a GNU utility for comparing text files for differences; not specifically geared for this situation since obviously section headings will be the same even if everything else is different but useful as a guide in finding what is the same between your skin.ini and the standard skin's skin.ini.

I already have ExamDiff, but it makes no difference — its still far too much work to be worth fixing the skin to get it accepted. Two of my skins — Classic and Opera Glasses — were originally the Opera default skin, but that doesn't help. So many things changed in skins since Opera 9.x.

I am still waiting to hear if anyone successfully got a skin accepted for Add-ons yet. Are there any skins there yet? If so, how can we find them?

Originally posted by Pesala:

I already have ExamDiff, but it makes no difference — its still far too much work to be worth fixing the skin to get it accepted. Two of my skins — Classic and Opera Glasses — were originally the Opera default skin, but that doesn't help. So many things changed in skins since Opera 9.x.

I am still waiting to hear if anyone successfully got a skin accepts for Add-ons yet. Are there any skins there yet? If so, how can we find them?

Yes, the main reason for this to be very difficult is that there is so much change since 9.X

Running a diff may not be useful. This is why:

For example, I don't like the gradient toolbar, i edit the "backgrounds/toolbar.png" and add a new section for "[Gradient Toolbar Base Skin]" in my custom skin.ini.

To make all gradient toolbars change, I also need to add these:

[Addressbar Skin]
Clone = Gradient Toolbar Base Skin
[Mailbar Skin]
Clone = Gradient Toolbar Base Skin
[Panel Full Toolbar Skin]
Clone = Gradient Toolbar Base Skin
...etc

These lines are identical to standard skin.ini. But if I remove these, the corresponding toolbars will change back to default appearance.

Originally posted by Pesala:

I am still waiting to hear if anyone successfully got a skin accepted for Add-ons yet. Are there any skins there yet? If so, how can we find them?

If not help a bit, but mine already accepted (https://addons.opera.com/es/themes/details/blue-rp7-2/).
I put the messages (on the site, with the moderator) if you serve someone http://files.myopera.com/Johann-7/1645/coments.txt

Originally posted by Johann-7:

Originally posted by Pesala:

I am still waiting to hear if anyone successfully got a skin accepted for Add-ons yet. Are there any skins there yet? If so, how can we find them?

If not help a bit, but mine already accepted (https://addons.opera.com/es/themes/details/blue-rp7-2/).
I put the messages (on the site, with the moderator) if you serve someone http://files.myopera.com/Johann-7/1645/coments.txt

Congratulations on that.

I hope the themes page get some redesign.

Originally posted by lchiang:

I hope the themes page get some redesign.

me too

Originally posted by lchiang:

I hope the themes page get some redesign.

Yeah, it'd be really nice if we could filter out the themes that just add a background picture and only see the actual skins (the ones that manage to get in that is), separate search functions for extensions and themes/skins would also be helpful.

Originally posted by Zotlan:

Yeah, it'd be really nice if we could filter out the themes that just add a background picture and only see the actual skins

There are currently only Five Skins on the Add-ons site. The Skins Repository is still available for those who want proper skins, but many may not work with Opera 12.x

Originally posted by Pesala:

Originally posted by Zotlan:

Yeah, it'd be really nice if we could filter out the themes that just add a background picture and only see the actual skins

There are currently only Five Skins on the Add-ons site. The Skins Repository is still available for those who want proper skins, but many may not work with Opera 12.x

Your search only finds skins that have the word "skins" in the title, there are more then five skins you just have to go through every theme skin one by one in order to find them.... which is ridiculously time consuming.
We desperately need a way to filter for themes/skins

I want to make a skin which only adds two rows (a "Padding Top = 0" and a "Padding Bottom = 0") in the standard skin.ini, which fix a bug in the standard Opera skin.
After creating the skin and stumbling on this discussion, I tried making the skin as minimal as I could.

First I went all the way and removed all the images and most of the skin.ini file content; I kept only [Info] and [Pagebar Head Button Skin.hover]. The resulting skin was broken.
Then I put in [Options]. The resulting skin was broken.
Then I set "Fallback foreground" and "Fallback background" to 1 in [Options]. The resulting skin was broken.
Then I returned the skin.ini file to it's full content, plus my two extra rows, of course, kept "Fallback foreground" and "Fallback background" to 1. The resulting skin was broken.
Then I put back all the images. The skin worked.

How do I make my skin minimal? I only need to add 2 rows in the skin.ini.

Also, another way to fix the bug would be to remove the [Pagebar Head Button Skin.hover] section altogether. The question remains the same: how do I make my skin minimal?

Nobody knows?!
mitchman2, no advice?

This is all you should need. If you modify a separate section in any way, you also need to include the image from that section. Please post the ini here if you still have problems.

[Info]
Name = Opera Standard Skin Modified
Author = Myself!
Version = 3
Preview Image =

[Options]
Fallback foreground = 1
Fallback background = 1
Inverted Pagebar Icons = 1
Transparency = 1
Full Transparency = 0
Dim Disabled Backgrounds = 0
Native Color Theme = Window Skin
Glow On Hover = 0

First, I must say I switched from Opera 32-bit to Opera 64-bit in the meantime and I don't get broken skins when trying the things I mentioned in my original post. Instead, I get skins which act exactly like the original one, without fixing the problem.

I don't think I understood what you wanted to say about including the image from my section.
As I said in my previous post, I want to change [Pagebar Head Button Skin.hover] by adding 2 rows or by deleting the section altogether. Both ways work if I change the original skin and not try to minimize the size of the skin.

2 extra rows version, following your template:

[Info]
Name = Opera Standard Skin Modified
Author = Myself!
Version = 3
Preview Image =

[Options]
Fallback foreground = 1
Fallback background = 1
Inverted Pagebar Icons = 1
Transparency = 1
Full Transparency = 0
Dim Disabled Backgrounds = 0
Native Color Theme = Window Skin
Glow On Hover = 0

[Pagebar Head Button Skin.hover]
;Clone               = Toolbar Button Skin.hover
Padding Top         = 0
Padding Bottom      = 0

This version does not work.
The style of the buttons added next to the Opera menu button remain the same and the problem is not fixed; they cause some really annoying effects when hovering certain buttons (e.g. the "new tab" button placed next to the Opera button). Try it! But beware! The first thing you will want to do is pull all your hair from your head when you'll see it, especially if Opera is not maximized. )

Also, the height of the tabs in the Appearance window becomes greater than their size in the original standard skin.
Also, the height of the rows in the list of available skins becomes smaller than their size in the original standard skin.
Who knows what else gets changed?!
This is not what I want. I want everything else to remain just like in the original standard skin.

Of course, I would not have to go through all this if the standard Opera skin would be fixed.

But since minimalism is the new preferred way to go, we really need a decent article explaining how to do stuff. A real article. Not like the one about extensions localization which gives some example that doesn't even work. And it's a really simple example too. How lame is that?!

[Pagebar Head Button Skin]
Padding Top = 0
Padding Bottom = 0

[Pagebar Head Button Skin.hover]
Clone = Pagebar Head Button Skin

That fixes the mispositioning on hover. The height of tabs and treeview lines is likely due to Button Text Padding= 0 missing in the options. There are several articles on dev.opera.com on how to do this, check them out.

That doesn't answer my question.
My question is how to make a minimal skin with only those changes.
How do I do that?

http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/opera-skinning/

Then re-read what I posted and my followup post.

You have got to be kidding me...
Have you read anything I wrote in my previous posts?!
I don't need a fix. I made my own goddamn fix. Ans it works.
I need a way to make a minimal skin with that fix.

Your method for making MINIMAL skins DOES NOT WORK.
Give me a WORKING example of a minimal skin with the changes I have told you I want to make to the standard Opera skin!
What? You can't?
And for that you want to brush me off by sending me to the skinning article?! FFS...

I repeat:
YOUR TEMPLATE for a minimal skin that includes the fix I want DOES NOT WORK.

My question remains unanswered: how can I make a minimal skin with only those changes I presented in my original post?

I have addressed some of your issues, maybe if you lay off the attitude and be more specific on what is still not working, I would be more inclined to help you? There is not need to behave like an idiot here.

You have got to be kidding... You mind my attitude of frustration, huh?

What issues did you address?! None.
I had only ONE QUESTION.
You want me to repeat it AGAIN?

OK, here you go: how can I make a minimal skin with only those changes I presented in my original post.

Happy?
Can you answer it?

Please keep in mind that YOUR TEMPLATE for a minimal skin that includes the fix I want DOES NOT WORK.

So, nobody has any idea how to create the minimal skins?

Moderator edit: This comment has been removed for breaching our terms of use.

First and foremost, this was a technical discussion, so your rant is off-topic.

Second, Opera has to do whatever it needs to in order to get as many users as possible. Do people use e-mail? Give them a client! Do they use IRC? Give them a client! Do they use torrents? Give them a client! Do people like pretty pictures of kittens on their browser? Give them the option to easily do it!

Third, I hate using extensions (one of the reasons I use Opera - no need for extensions), but I love the idea of extensions (you want something extra in Opera? Well, this one is one of the few items we don't have, but you can sure find an extension for it.). From your only blog post, I take it you have some issues with extensions too. You know what? Most people don't have any such issues and they couldn't care less about how you and I feel about extensions. Opera must put the needs of the many over the issues of the few.

Anyway, stop disturbing technical threads with philosophical rants!

Now, let's get back to the technical issues!
Minimal skins - is there anyone who knows how to make them?

Moderator edit: This comment has been removed for breaching our terms of use.

Wow! You are so witty I almost... uh... yeah... whatever...
I didn't say Opera makes all the right decisions. It seems they missed this one. Oh, wait...Opera has private tabs. Problem solved.
Happy? Now, please, shut up if you can't help the current discussion!

So, about those minimal skins. Any ideas? Anyone?

How many compatible skins are there now in the Themes repository? Is anyone at Opera working on converting some of the most popula skins?

If its so easy, please show us how it is done with a few examples, and tell us how to find skins among all the Themes.

Very good questions.
Are Themes in fact anything more than backdrops to SpeedDial? Which it has always been possible to configure.

Originally posted by Pesala:

How many compatible skins are there now in the Themes repository?

My last count was 7

... which is quite pathetic compared to the about about 271 still working skins I was able to rescue before they vanished from the servers ...


The skinning system seems to be quite backward compatible, even many of the very old skins from about 2004+ work astonishingly well with 12.14, but fixing skins to be fully compatible is still a lot of work. I tried to fix an old skin I really liked and gave in because I really s**k at icon design. One single icon takes me over an hour to get it (almost) right and I don't have that much spare time to complete the (mostly few) missing icons.

There is now an Opera Group Old and Real Skins where skin authors can post about their old skins or updated skins for Opera 12.xx.

Originally posted by Pesala:

There is now an Opera Group Old and Real Skins where skin authors can post about their old skins or updated skins for Opera 12.xx.

Thank you