New Opera Preferences layout idea w\ Mockup

New Opera Preferences layout idea w\ Mockup

The current Opera Preference window is a travesty. Well, almost. It's not the worst in the world, but it really needs cleaning up and in my opinion, a complete redesign. So I made one!

I took a look at the existing preference windows used by new and old browsers, and made a massive browser prefs comparison image. I eventually came up with this mockup of a new preference window for what I hope to be Opera 10.

It's made using the OS X interface, using the OS X "Accounts" preference pane as inspiration, but it could be easily implemented for Windows or Linux. The main thing I'm pushing here is a return to the Opera 7 style sidebar preferences, but with pretty labelled groups and 3-4 "main sections" at the top, to enhance usability.

But why? Well, this is what I find wrong with the current Opera 8\9 preferences layout:

• A freaking "Advanced" tab. The "Advanced" tab is a poor way of shoving stuff to the side without actually logically arranging anything for the user. If I want to turn off mouse gestures, I should be able to open the preferences, scan for a key word relating to them, and find what I want in a single click. Right now I have to decide whether it's an "advanced" option and hope I'm right, resorting to trial and error before I find it. This is awful! It doesn't help that advanced stuff like custom search engines and monospace font selectors are considered "basic" while seemingly simple features like default browser options and "confirm on exit" are considered "advanced".
• Horrible categorisation and naming. Why is "Downloads" related to "Content" but not "Network"? What is the difference between "Web pages" options and "Content" options? What the hell is "Browsing" for - I mean, can you imagine an email program with a tab for "Email" settings? It's an utter mess.
• It's overwhelming and even more disorienting than the "overwhelming" Opera 7 prefs it was designed to fix. The tactic of sweeping anything scary-looking into an "Advanced" tab doesn't make the UI easier for casual users, it scares them as soon as they see the jumbled mess the "Advanced" tab must become in order for this segmented UI to work out. It makes it harder for casual users and experts alike to find what they want, and just feels wrong.
• Combined with opera:config, it makes Opera's preference system a total mess. So we have three different grades of user now? Casual (first four tabs), intermediate (advanced tab) and expert (opera:config)? This is no good. I like the opera:config, but only the most obscure features should fit into it, with the majority of advanced and novice features being presented in a single, unified, clean UI.

How does my preference window design solve things? It reaches a medium between the "too advanced" Opera 7 preferences and the "too sloppily simplified" Opera 8\9 preferences. The sidebar allows every section to be available to the user on first appearance (so the problem of guessing whether Opera thought something was "simple" or "advanced" disappears for both novice and expert users) yet does not overwhelm you. It does this by dividing the settings into logical groups, with the most common functions in bold at the top. It also looks pretty, and conforms to an existing UI used by many preference panes on Windows, Mac OS and Linux.

Please note that my organisation\renaming\removing of certain sections of the preferences is just my best shot at making things more logical - I wasn't sure of a better category name than "System", for instance. I have also made "Appearance" and "Accounts" part of the main preferences window - I feel this would work really well, but you are free to disagree with me. If those preferences are to be kept separate, some logical "main categories" should be made bold for novice users to easily identify and change without venturing into the more advanced stuff in smaller print. See, it's kinda like the "separation" the Opera 8\9 design gave us, but not as obnoxious!

I threw a few subtle feature requests into this too "Extensions" is part of a broader idea I have for a UserJS manager, and auto-fill is something I think everyone wants. In general, I didn't add anything more than that - but I'd hope Opera would round out some of the rough edges and missing parts of the current preferences UI, like Bittorrent options in "Downloads", Newsfeeds under "Accounts", and a proper menu editor in "Toolbars and Menus". As I said, only the weirdest and most obscure stuff should be in opera:config, everything else needs a UI.

What do you think? I'm pretty satisfied with it - though I think Opera should make better icons than the ones I used, figure out a meaningful way to use the small "status" print under "General", "Accounts" and "Appearance", and do some general work on making the categories even more logically laid out than I made them. But other than that, isn't it a nicer idea?

I agree. The preferences dialogue is a mess. It needs a complete redesign. We see many support requests on the forum just because new users are not able to find the options in preferences. Your design looks good, but what are the three icons for at top left?

Opera Config is where many advanced tweaking options belong to make the preferences dialog even simpler.

I have been using Opera 9 since it was released, but I'm still looking for the menu option to open opera:config.
It seems that the only way in is to type opera:config in the address field.

i actually like the Omniweb preferences dialog the most, as it offers a complete overview of top categories. a selection of one would lead you to an overview of the prefs in this categories ( this i assume as i don't have this browser ). and it acts like a browser with back- and forward buttons.

Yes for redesigning the preferences dialog!

I think a sidebar list of categories is much better than tabs. And I don't like a two-layer system with sidebar AND tabs.

In addition to the layout questions, I have some functional wishes.

- A search field in Preferences, similar to the one Trillian has. Search matches both in the sidebar and the preferences page will be highlighted. The search field can be placed above the preferences page.

- Cross links between different preferences. For instance, in your mockup there is a wand checkbox on the first page. Next to the checkbox text there should be a link to the page with the additional wand settings.
Appearance and Preferences may be in different dialogs, but there should be a cross link between the two (maybe in the categories sidebar). There can also be cross links from the preferences to Opera:config. And to "Mail and Chat accounts..."

- Fewer extra dialogs. I would like to set keyboard and mouse shortcuts in the main preferences window, not an additional popup dialog.

- Confirm button ("OK") should display some basic information about the number of changes and their nature, possibly with a tooltip showing a list of changes.

- A small "history" of the latest preferences settings that affected the application's recent behaviour. For instance, if a popup is blocked, this list would contain a link to popup settings. Especially, if a shortcut or mouse gesture is used by accidant, the list would link to the dialog to configure this specific shortcut. The list can be available from the Help menu, for instance (menu item "what happened?") and as a special item in the preferences sidebar.

- Different access points to specific pages of the preferences. For instance, the list of mail accounts on the bottom of the mail panel should have a context menu for each account, with an access point to the mail and chat accounts settings. The transfers (downloads) panel should have an access point to the downloads page of preferences.

Originally posted by Pesala:

Your design looks good, but what are the three icons for at top left?

The General\Accounts\Appearance bits serve to make the top three preference sections more obvious, and visually distinct from the others. They're not totally necessary, but I feared that people would consider my idea simply a rehashing of the Opera 7 preferences unless I tweaked it in some ways like that. It's essentially a clever way of integrating the current top level of "novice prefs" with the "advanced prefs" list in Opera 8\9's dialogue.

I may have misinterpreted you, too - did you mean the red, yellow and green buttons? Those are the OS X window controls, nothing to worry about.

Originally posted by NoobSaibot:

i actually like the Omniweb preferences dialog the most, as it offers a complete overview of top categories.

I can assure you it's totally awful. Out of all the preferences I screenshotted, I hate Omniweb's the most - I think this kind of preference thing was used by many early OS X apps that have now moved on to more simple designs like Safari's. It's too over the top, too ugly and too hard to navigate (you have to go back and forward and back and forward, it's monotonous.)

Schneemann: A search field might be overkill for now, but perhaps in the future.. I dunno. The System Preferences in OS X Tiger has it, and it's useful for new users. But that's a very complicated set of preferences for an entire OS - maybe Opera should be kept as simple as possible for now, a search field might make things intimidating. Also, I don't know if I like the idea of cross links.. it seems to overcomplicate things. In all of the examples you mentioned, it seems like it'd clutter things up more than be truly useful. Why not just integrate the accounts and appearance dialogues into the Opera Preferences instead?

Having the keyboard shortcut editor inside the window would be really awesome - if Opera could integrate more windows into the preferences by way of tabs (on each individual section) things would be really great. I forgot the OK button, though I think you could do away with it entirely - good apps on the Mac have no OK buttons, they just apply preferences as you set them. Your ideas relating to preference history and access points and a report on what was changed really sound like overkill.. the point here is to make things simpler and more direct, rather than offering loads of power user features. Opera's preferences should not look scary and complex next to Firefox or IE's preferences. Maybe they should be things you can switch on in opera:config

Originally posted by SuitCase:

Your ideas relating to preference history and access points and a report on what was changed really sound like overkill.. the point here is to make things simpler and more direct, rather than offering loads of power user features.

What I have in mind here is people going to these forums and asking "why does the transfers tab always pop up when I start a download?", or myself triggering yet unknown shortcuts by accidant.

In this case it would be nice to find out what happened, why it happened, and how I can turn it off. Some of this depends on options in preferences, others just on checkboxes in the "view" menu, and others depend on a menu built into a toolbar (like what happens after starting a transfer).

For me it took some time to find out what is controlled by what menu. Others might just think that the desired setting doesn't exist.


Maybe this is a matter of "developer overkill" (too much work to implement, performance restrictions) vs "user overkill" (interface is getting too complicated).

I'll just say +1 for redesign of pref-dialogue. I persionally like your layout (this here) very much, something like this would be ideal imho

Excellent mock up you have going I would suggest that instead of a system category you change the name to network and make programs a subcategory of downloads. I would also go for Schneemann's suggestions though I think that actually integrating help into the menu options would be able to solve most of the problems he is talking about.

I would go one step further and say that nothing should be only accessible through opera:config which is really a black hole of options with no explanation of the options themselves. If you need a command that is essentially a secret to hold options of any kind the dialogue(s) have (has) been designed wrong.

Did anyone take a good look at the Firefox 2 prefs? They use a layered tab model - try the Privacy pane for example. That's what you get when you try to fit in all prefs under six main categories. The advantage of Opera's current solution, is that you more space (and less visual clutter) when you keep away from Advanced.

I wouldn't mind something like this mockup at all. Using the Advanced category means a extra click for many people. But it also means the Prefs will look more complex and daunting at first sight - and don't fit in with Mac OS guidelines.

Originally posted by shadow skill:

I would go one step further and say that nothing should be only accessible through opera:config which is really a black hole of options with no explanation of the options themselves. If you need a command that is essentially a secret to hold options of any kind the dialogue(s) have (has) been designed wrong.

I was about to say "Well, no, there's a lot of advanced stuff in Opera:config that would clutter the preference window", but I just looked through it and didn't really find many examples. I think Opera could put a whole heap of advanced preferences into a new design if they just organised it correctly - many of the security functions or network timeout options or whatever would fit nicely under the "System" categories, SVG Rendering quality and "Interpolate images" could be fit into "Content", etc. There are really only a scant few items there that I don't think would be appropriate for the preferences - "Newest Seen Version" and "Help URL" would very rarely be useful, for instance. So I agree with this suggestion for the most part - only very few options should be exclusive to opera:config.

Firefox 2's solution really isn't that bad - I'd be asking for it if Opera wasn't so much more complex. It suffers from the "Advanced" tab confusion and is a bit less direct than the mockup I made (or the Opera 7 preferences) - if you want to change History settings, you have to know that it's related to "Privacy", for instance.

Originally posted by Rijk:

The advantage of Opera's current solution, is that you more space (and less visual clutter) when you keep away from Advanced.

Yes, but I do wonder who never looks at "Advanced" - my family when using Opera have often needed to look at advanced and it just felt so clunky having to explain that something was under advanced, then under content, then on the "Javascript options" button, etc etc.. I think the simplest solution (exposing everything) is often the best, and least intimidating for everyone.

I suppose my mockup would not be considered a standard preference window, but it's no big deal - many of the "pro apps" for OS X have odd preference windows that are suited to their more extensive lists of options. Besides, Opera is a cross-platform app - in my opinion, Firefox 2's preferences look wrong and out of place on Linux and Windows due to the OS X toolbar-style design.

Originally posted by Rijk:

Did anyone take a good look at the Firefox 2 prefs? They use a layered tab model - try the Privacy pane for example. That's what you get when you try to fit in all prefs under six main categories.

I'm using Fox 1.5, so I don't know if there is a difference to Fox 2.
However, I can say I prefer a one-layer sidebar (like trillian has) to a two-layer tab solution. What I also don't like is the expandable tree view that is found in Eclipse, OpenOffice etc. In all these multi-layer solutions you need to guess what is behind the different category names, and you need too many clicks.

And, I don't like the start view of preferences in Trillian, where all items are spread on a page, instead of being arranged in a list. (the same can be found in Mac OS X, I think - not my taste either)

SuitCase's solution has each page available at one click, but a manageable set of categories that are meant to give the same guidance as Firefox' top-layer tabs. A sidebar can take much more items than a tab bar.

+1 for Preferences redesign. Yet, I don't think you've found the solution to the problem.

It's not only about the categories, it's also about the layout inside each category. Plus, there are simply way too many options. You will never make all users happy.

This is why opera:config with descriptions would be useful. Opera:config should be directly made available in the Preferences. It's not rocket science to use opera:config. This should be even encouraged, even for newbies.

Currently, you need to be a "rocket scientist" to know what to change in opera:config.

Originally posted by robodesign:

It's not only about the categories, it's also about the layout inside each category.

Oh, I absolutely agree. However I didn't have the time nor inclination to redesign each section, and my idea for the "General" one displayed was only a preliminary one. Opera needs to organise things a lot better in all sorts of sections - right now I really disagree with "Browsing", "Programs", etc etc. My wish is for Opera to not only just design something a bit like my mockup, but to actually go through and thoroughly refine the way things are organised. You can already see I renamed a few sections to sound more relevant - "Keyboard and Mouse" instead of the ambiguous "Shortcuts", for instance.

Originally posted by robodesign:

Plus, there are simply way too many options. You will never make all users happy.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Does the mockup I made look overwhelming? I don't think it's that much more confronting than the preference window of Firefox 2 or IE, and beyond that initial perception I believe strongly that it'd be far more usable and easy to navigate. Opera is by its nature a complex browser and faces more of a problem than Firefox or Safari does in making its preferences easy to change. I cannot think of a better way to implement it than a sidebar.

I disagree that opera:config should be directly available in preferences, especially not at the expense of more advanced features not having a proper UI. That's even uglier and hackier than the current method of annoyingly separating "simple" from "advanced" preferences.

You could have something along the lines of the E17 control panel as well, Note that I stretched the dialogue out so I could fit everything in. Almost all of the configuration dialogue's for E17 have a "basic" and "advanced" mode for that individual dialogue. You can also configure all of the dialogues to go straight to the "advanced" mode if you desire.

Forgive me, but I don't understand - what is E17? A new version of the Enlightenment window manager? I'd be great if you could provide screenshots of the configuration interface!

Erm sorry about that I guess I forgot to add the image of the main dialogue to my last post. And yes E17 is the new [alpha] version of the Enlightenment window manager.basic menu.jpg advanced menu.jpg main dialogue.jpg

The main dialogue isn't as important as the other dialogues since I think we are both more or less in agreement about descriptive categorization of options. What is important is how E17 avoids "multilayer hell" by making each individual dialogue have its own advanced option making sure that there is no real advanced section that will just become a dumping ground for options. The ironic thing is that there are still quite a few fairly basic things that are missing from the main configuration dialogue that either have gui's or [most of the time.] don't have gui's at all and yet the current dialogues are some of the cleanest I have ever dealt with without being too restrictive ignoring the work in progress status of alot of stuff.

I see what you mean now, and - Oh, maybe. I don't think that should apply to many of Opera's sections, though, maybe only one or two. I would be somewhat annoyed that I couldn't see all of the options for a certain section at a glance and would only find it acceptable for a crowded panel that really needs separation - say, the Network one.

I really like your mockup, SuitCase. I agree primarily that all preferences should be available like this, rather than separate dialog boxes.

Also, I prefer the sidebar to the tabs, considering how many options there really are. The Mac OSX-only program BBEdit does this too, it even has so many options there that it requires a scrollbar to see everything. Benefits of this are that it's easier to find the preference you're looking for, rather than having to guess a while what tab it might be under.

Another possible good feature would be Photoshop's "Previous" and "Next" buttons, for when you have no idea where the hell your preference is (which really is best avoided altogether, of course).

Thank you! I'm glad it's getting a pretty positive reception, considering it really is more like a step back to what we had in Opera 7 than something totally new and reimagined.

I think I remember BBEdit's prefs - to be totally honest, I hate the scrollbars in the left pane. It feels unwieldy and overcomplex - the window should be arranged so that all sections in the list are always present on the screen. A lot of people hated Netscape 6 and IE5 Mac's preferences for this reason - and I continue to hate VLC's preferences for it particularly, to this day.

What do you mean about the previous and next buttons? Just as an easy way to cycle through the whole thing? I feel that this problem is already somewhat solved in Opera, as the UI is so fast you can just drag the mouse down the list and have stuff instantly appear as it's highlighted. Such buttons sound like clutter to me.

Yes, I agree that the scrollbar is a rather undesired element, and should probably be avoided. Also agree with the nested stuff in N6/IE5 Mac/VLC, bleh.

Hey, wow, I wasn't aware you could do that dragging thing to see everything...neat! Yeah, the idea was to quickly see everything to avoid thinking too much about what section in might be in, and it's easier to click the same button over and over than different tabs. But the dragging thing should be good enough.

Personally I feel that Schneemann's idea about the search field has quite some merit, too, I already use the Quick Find in opera:config, which has that exact effect.

Originally posted by Schneemann:

Originally posted by SuitCase:

Your ideas relating to preference history and access points and a report on what was changed really sound like overkill.. the point here is to make things simpler and more direct, rather than offering loads of power user features.

What I have in mind here is people going to these forums and asking "why does the transfers tab always pop up when I start a download?", or myself triggering yet unknown shortcuts by accidant.

In this case it would be nice to find out what happened, why it happened, and how I can turn it off. Some of this depends on options in preferences, others just on checkboxes in the "view" menu, and others depend on a menu built into a toolbar (like what happens after starting a transfer).

As a compromise, what about having Preferences changes generate a log -- a simple text logfile with date-stamped lines in the form of "opera:config#whatever" URLs? The UI wouldn't have to have any link to it. Power users would learn about it. Less advanced users could be pointed to it in answer to questions like "why does the transfers tab pop up..."

Such a log could also potentially be integrated into the Preferences UI, either in its textual format or as a fancy "infinite undo". But I think that would be unnecessary and even unwieldy.

>Bela<

I do kinda like the idea of a search field, but I want Opera to get the preferences right before they do it. A search field lumped onto a substandard preferences UI would emphasise any of its faults. If it was beautiful and clearly organised, it'd be like "Oh, wonderful! I can even search for stuff!", but if the prefs weren't expertly done, it'd be "Ugh, they're so disorganised they need you to search for what you want? Firefox\Safari never needed a search box." So I'm wary about recommending it, at least at first.

"+1" (I'm not used to saying that) on that log idea! What a great solution to Schneemann's problem - at least, I hope. I think it could be exposed through the UI, but only in the Tools->Advanced menu - put alongside the other advanced logs power users would be interested in observing. I don't feel an urgent need for this feature myself, but it would be a nice addition and certainly a unique feature to back up a very well organised preference system.

Out of interest, does opera:config list every setting found within the current preferences UI? I believe it should, but I am not sure if it actually does yet.

If changes to the configuration are going to be logged in any way how said logs are to be accessed should be readily apparent to anyone using the program. You have no idea how painful it is to have absolutely no clue where a log file even is when you need it for whatever the reason. Logs are only useful if people know how to get to them at all. "Power users" tend to learn about those sorts of things by hammering google or forums like this and praying that some other poor guy/gal had the same problem. That kind of wasteful activity really needs to be avoided.

I don't think so, not for something as obscure as configuration logs, anyway. It's like having opera:config in the preferences - who does this really benefit? It overwhelms newbies and is redundant for the type of user that would want to check logs. Also, Tools->Advanced really isn't that obscure to get to anyway.

The philosophy of making everything readily available with buttons and sidebars and menu items was shown to be a hideous approach to UI in Opera 7.5x. What Opera needs is balance, which is why I'm so hesitant to agree to people asking for more buttons and things in this redesigned preference window. It's a fine line :|

Originally posted by filbo:

Originally posted by Schneemann:

Originally posted by SuitCase:

Your ideas relating to preference history and access points and a report on what was changed really sound like overkill.. the point here is to make things simpler and more direct, rather than offering loads of power user features.

What I have in mind here is people going to these forums and asking "why does the transfers tab always pop up when I start a download?", or myself triggering yet unknown shortcuts by accidant.

In this case it would be nice to find out what happened, why it happened, and how I can turn it off. Some of this depends on options in preferences, others just on checkboxes in the "view" menu, and others depend on a menu built into a toolbar (like what happens after starting a transfer).

As a compromise, what about having Preferences changes generate a log -- a simple text logfile with date-stamped lines in the form of "opera:config#whatever" URLs? The UI wouldn't have to have any link to it. Power users would learn about it. Less advanced users could be pointed to it in answer to questions like "why does the transfers tab pop up..."

Such a log could also potentially be integrated into the Preferences UI, either in its textual format or as a fancy "infinite undo". But I think that would be unnecessary and even unwieldy.

>Bela<

Now I finally realize we are talking at cross-purposes! I don't want to log recent changes of the preferences, I want to log events in the browser that depend on specific preferences. Such a log can look like this:

14:37 - wand login (fast forward), triggered by mouse button 5. - Change this shortcut. - help "wand"
14:38 - close page (tab), triggered by gesture down. - Change this shortcut. - help "mouse gestures"

Normally we don't need more than the last 3 or 4 events to be shown here. We don't need to log all events, only those that are easily triggered by accidant.

So because Opera did it wrong the concept is wrong and we should create yet another black hole? It doesn't make any sense to force people to hunt for information when they need it, the reason opera:config is horrible is because you have to effectively already know about it in order for it to be of any use to you. It's impossible to really predict what a user is going to actually need so how can one justify buring options into some secret place? Trying to ram things into "out of the way" places is one of the main reasons that people don't find various options in programs. Just go look at Firefox's about:config or the horror of the Internet Options dialog. All I am saying is that if you are going to do something it has to be readily apparent to the people using the software maybe a one time popup or a tool tip in the advanced tab. [And definetly a section in the help documents.] Its totally ridiculous to design an interface that pretends that users who want a certain option already know where to go to get at said option.

It really depends on the implementation. As I said above in this thread, I think the majority opera:config-exclusive options should be put into the Preferences UI in logical positions, but some just aren't relevant and should remain hidden - is it really the best idea to confront a user with "JavaScript AppCodeName" settings when they click on "Content"? Or to ask where the user wants their "Plugin Ignore File" when they click on "Network"? (For clarity, I think very few things should be limited to opera:config, but I do not agree that the 10-20 totally obscure preferences Opera has belong in a UI.)

I disagree with your "View recent configuration changelog file" button\section in the UI (and as mentioned above but to a lesser extent, the "search for option" input box) for similar reasons. What message does this mockup give an Opera user? Not "Hey, that's easy to use and well arranged", but "Why does Opera need all this fancy crap in their preferences? Can't they just have easy preferences like all my other apps?"

I realise that my little mockup there is a bit disingenuous as I added a bunch of features mentioned in this thread to it, not just a button for this log idea. But that's the general result of adding too many features like that, and I want Opera to stick to the philosophy of keeping things as simple as they can.

Basically, I am opposed to features being hidden, but I'm also opposed to not seeking the simplest solution possible at all times. I feel that the rightful place of such a "Preferences history" would be in the Tools menu (which should be expanded with no "Advanced" menu) looking a bit like:

[TOOLS]
Content Blocker...
Site Manager...
Error Console...
---
Notes
Transfers
History
Links
---
Plugins
Cache index
Preferences history
---
Delete private data...

There it's out of the way, is in a logical place for those who might want to look for it, and keeps the interface uncluttered with stuff 90% of Opera users have no interest in using.

By the way, I understand Schneeman's idea, and I'm sorry I keep referring to it as a Preferences log - it's just easier for me to type. I dunno if it's in the scope of this topic, but it sounds like an interesting and potentially useful wish nonetheless - I just think any such advanced log belongs in the "Tools" menu, and there'd have to be some other method of alerting confused users to its presence. The only way I could imagine it fitting into the Preferences window is via an "Advanced" section to hide it in, and I strongly disagree with the idea of that.

Originally posted by Schneemann:

Now I finally realize we are talking at cross-purposes! I don't want to log recent changes of the preferences, I want to log events in the browser that depend on specific preferences. Such a log can look like this:

14:37 - wand login (fast forward), triggered by mouse button 5. - Change this shortcut. - help "wand"
14:38 - close page (tab), triggered by gesture down. - Change this shortcut. - help "mouse gestures"

Normally we don't need more than the last 3 or 4 events to be shown here. We don't need to log all events, only those that are easily triggered by accidant.

Aha! Yes, several of us were talking at cross purposes to you.

I recommend you post a new thread requesting your UI actions log. Make it self-contained (not a short post referring back to the middle of this discussion). It's off topic to the current thread, which makes it get lost in the noise.

>Bela<

Originally posted by filbo:

I recommend you post a new thread requesting your UI actions log. Make it self-contained (not a short post referring back to the middle of this discussion). It's off topic to the current thread, which makes it get lost in the noise.

http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=150936

Originally posted by Rijk:

I wouldn't mind something like this mockup at all. Using the Advanced category means a extra click for many people. But it also means the Prefs will look more complex and daunting at first sight - and don't fit in with Mac OS guidelines.

No it wouldn't. Complex applications call for more complex preferences, but they should be made to be as easy to use as possible. The preferences for Opera 9 are more complex than any other browser on the platform because the browser can do more than any other browser on OS X. The Mac OS X HIG is the most misunderstood document that Apple ever wrote it seems. Many quote things that are nonexistant in the document and others claim that if things aren't done exactly one way that it violates the guidelines. BBEdit's preferences are a jumbled mess of garbage and probably does violate OS X's guidelines. Neither the current Opera preferences nor SuitCase's mockup are anywhere close to complexity of BBEdit's preferences dialog. The problem with the OS X guidelines is that it speaks mostly of simple applications (which is a category that Opera does not fall in). Farther in it gets into advanced applications and urges developers to follow the guidelines for simple applications as much as possible, but they do realize that some applications won't be able to follow the simple applications guidelines exactly so not following it completely doesn't violate the HIG. That's about all it states.

Talks about the violation of the HIG is for another discussion, but Opera itself has so many violations already while SuitCase's mockup has none.

Back to the mockup. I like it for the most part, but the icons at the top are a bit useless. They do draw the eye to those particular preferences which is what you want, but you could instead draw focus on those items in other ways. It's just a problem as the preference category itself has less focus than the individual subcategories beneath it. It's a break in the heiarchy of information. In the accounts dialog they have the icons because those are the users' icons. I've always hoped for a more common preference dialog with the row of icons at the top for each of the categories like how Safari does it. Opera might have due to its complexity move into how OmniWeb does it more. I wouldn't mind how your mockup works, though.

I don't have time to make a mockup of my own at the present time, but I have some ideas of my own that could be thrown into the mix.

Well, yeah, there's no standard way of solving the problem of providing main preference categories in addition to advanced ones on any OS I know of. That is, besides having main tabs and an "Advanced" tab - Opera's current solution which sucks.

Opera's never gonna look perfect on all platforms, so I kinda think my solution is a pretty way to do it that doesn't look too out of place and solves all the usability problems that currently exist.

An alternate solution is to simply take my mockup and put plain list items instead of the big list items - but then it becomes a bit more overwhelming to a user simply looking for the "big three", and really isn't that much different from what Opera 7 was (which was obviously deemed a bad design by Opera.) So essentially it's a minor infraction for a pretty ideal and very usable interface.

I'd like to see your mockup idea at some point! When you get the time

Like six months ago I started trying to make the entire Opera Preferences interface, but it's been languishing since - after remembering this topic I decided to update it with a link to a big compilation of the other panes that my design would use. Check it out below:

http://img.soaringrabbit.com/opera10prefs-all.png

It's messy with the wrong padding and odd sizing and some badly done bits, but it mostly makes sense. The best bits are:

- General
- Personal Information
- Network
- Downloads
- Site Preferences - General

These exemplify what I'm trying to promote here - simplified, logical interfaces that still offer all the advanced features to those who need them.

I still hope Opera bookmarked this topic and are adding it in for the real Opera 10 - it's a nice thought!

+1
i like the Site Preference dialog page in your screenshot

It's looking great! +1

+1

guy, you really have too much time
again: cool mockup, worth another +1 from me

Originally posted by Pesala:

I have been using Opera 9 since it was released, but I'm still looking for the menu option to open opera:config. It seems that the only way in is to type opera:config in the address field.

Well, for the menus it would perfectly into Tools-Advanced (but one has to customize this menu or Opera could add it in a forthcoming release). But as it is a simple address you can use any simple URL access possibility in Opera: Bookmark, Personal bar, Bookmark alias (e.g. "config" - simply press SHIFT+F2 + start to type "config", it will most probably already open after you entered "c"), drag the opera:config tab to another toolbar, put it on your speed dial, or add it to a keyboard short cut or mouse gesture (Tools-Preferences-Advanced-Shortcuts-highlight:Copy of Opera standard (or whatever)-edit, add a key/gesture on the left and on the right add >>go to page, "opera:config"<<). As it covers the advanced options this is not too much to request from a user.

Originally posted by SuitCase:

...it really needs cleaning up and in my opinion, a complete redesign. So I made one!

Nice work... Opera advanced prefs take a long time to get used to, and can be very confusing (even for experienced users). I welcome your suggested implementation; let's start the simplification process...

Originally posted by shadow skill:

"Power users" tend to learn about those sorts of things by hammering google or forums like this and praying that some other poor guy/gal had the same problem. That kind of wasteful activity really needs to be avoided.

Amen!

Wow, a good idea I'm actually opposed to. Maybe, it's the Mac skin, I apologize if I come off as being devil's advocate for the sake of being devil's advocate.

I don't have any knowledge on how to create mockups or any expertise on designing interface but looking at that mockup from my untrained eye scares me.

Maybe, it's because I have a different point of view when I first layed eyes on Opera 8/9's preference design. For the first time in my life when using a browser, I rejoiced in the fact that if I was going to tweak basic things in Opera, chances are it's in the advanced section.

Maybe some users feel more comfortable with sidebars but I hate them in that it forces the eyes to read each line to see where you need to configure the settings. With Opera's current way of doing it, it doesn't matter if I reset the profile or have a new version, chances are most of the settings I need are under advanced so I only need to click once on that tab and focus on that area entirely.

That isn't to say I'm against redesigning Opera's current way of doing it. It's just that in my opinion the mockup looks convulated and makes my head hurt especially the way it forces the eyes to look up to the 3 big options up top even when reading downwards.

Based on the replies here, I'm probably in the minority but if I had to satisfy both parties, I think K-meleon's way can do just that.

Simple preference looks just like your mockup only nothing advanced crammed in and not requiring any large fonts. I think this can be combined with the appearance preference.

Advanced preference uses tree style side bar so it's easier to spot things by default though some of the options require rearranging but at least you can cram all these options in there and you can even make it in tabs since the aim is for functionality over simplicity.

Meanwhile the opera config settings are located in the configuration subsection with slide arrows that open up other sub menus before directing the user to the subsection category they clicked in without having to do that only after they entered the opera:config page.

Hi Suitecase,
You've struck a cord with your idea!
+1!
The single, tree-structure menu idea is indeed simpler to scan--as long as it doesn't become too long. You're mock-up would be about as long as I'd like it to get. Any longer and I think a structure using tabs for the main category and side menus for the sub-categories would perhaps be globally easier to use.
But that's just "what if" details.
Although I do find the Mac-based interface lovely to look at, I'd perhaps suggest that one stays with the (still) more widespread Windows style interface for the default skin. A Mac interface lover can always find an alternative skin for that.
Congrats to have thought this through with the always good combination of "simple is always better than complex" and "make it as easy as possible for the user"
Bravo!
I do hope that your idea finds an echo among the Opera designers/programmers.

Oh, of course, the Windows version would look like a standard Windows window. I hate skins and believe Opera should ship with native looks on all platforms. It was just easier to make this with Interface Builder on my Mac - if I had the tools to do so, I'd replicate it in an XP Luna-style window for you to see.

I agree that this is about as lengthy as you'd want the preferences to be. I think that having more preferences than that, though, would indicate that your software is vastly overengineered and your options are in need of simplification, though, rather than conceding to an interface that's better for huge amounts of preferences. The point is to reach a balance.

Trailing, thank you for the input!

Originally posted by Trailing:

Maybe, it's because I have a different point of view when I first layed eyes on Opera 8/9's preference design. For the first time in my life when using a browser, I rejoiced in the fact that if I was going to tweak basic things in Opera, chances are it's in the advanced section.

Maybe some users feel more comfortable with sidebars but I hate them in that it forces the eyes to read each line to see where you need to configure the settings. With Opera's current way of doing it, it doesn't matter if I reset the profile or have a new version, chances are most of the settings I need are under advanced so I only need to click once on that tab and focus on that area entirely.

Unless you made typos there, I don't see the logic in what you're saying, to be honest. If you admit that "chances are most of the settings I need are under advanced", and that you can "focus on that area entirely", surely my version brings that interface to the forefront so you can get right to business instead of mucking around with an annoying "Advanced" tab every time you want to change something?

The only way I can see this making sense is if you like the idea that the "general" options aren't there to clutter up your favourite advanced view, but even then I don't see the value, as the three non-advanced tabs could easily just become another two or three entries on the "Advanced" list.

Originally posted by Trailing:

That isn't to say I'm against redesigning Opera's current way of doing it. It's just that in my opinion the mockup looks convulated and makes my head hurt especially the way it forces the eyes to look up to the 3 big options up top even when reading downwards.

Oh, I'm sorry - that's totally what I'm trying to work against. I hope it's just a case of you not being used to Aqua.

I think the main reason your eyes are drawn to the top left is because of the big blue highlight on "General". If you were looking at something like "Network", the blue would instead appear on that, which helps draw your attention to which pane you are looking at. My long list of preference pane arrangements neglected to change that detail, which I think would contribute to the idea that it looks too heavy and distracting in that corner.

Originally posted by Trailing:

Based on the replies here, I'm probably in the minority but if I had to satisfy both parties, I think K-meleon's way can do just that.

I googled it - do you mean this kind of prefpane? It appears to be something like Opera 7's, which is pretty much my one without the top three "main options". I wouldn't mind that, but I think it would lose the usability advantage of having a clearly defined section for newbies to edit. There's a reason Opera changed to the version 8 design, and it was because the version 7 one was somewhat inadequate for new users, I believe.

By the way, I think I decided what opera:config should be. I would like it to be a feature in the Tools menu, and by default it would display a limited list of things not currently accessible through the real preferences UI. A click at the bottom of the screen would toggle it back to its all-commands all-available original self. I think this way it'd be easier to use for those who like to tweak obscure settings, which appears to be the main use of the feature. I maintain that almost all of opera:config should be integrated into the real preferences UI, though.

Originally posted by SuitCase:

I agree that this is about as lengthy as you'd want the preferences to be. I think that having more preferences than that, though, would indicate that your software is vastly overengineered and your options are in need of simplification, though, rather than conceding to an interface that's better for huge amounts of preferences. The point is to reach a balance.

Opinions will always vary on this, and Opera has taken different points of view itself during the last couple of years where simplicity of the user interface is concerned. However, as much as I admire your current design and as much as I'd like to see a one-dimensional hierarchy for Opera's Preferences, I think you could work with 'Advanced...' or 'Details...' buttons next to many options to improve on this balance. It keeps the Preferences window in itself small, clean and orderly, while still giving second-level access to those who want to dig deeper into Opera's countless possibilities. That way, you could for example give access to the fine-grained controls of file types which Opera handles by default, while moving the bittorrent options to a second level. And there are more options in your mock-up I would rather not see on the first level of Preferences.

Because your mockup brings that to the forefront, there's more text to read and I think it can scare average users from exploring Opera's settings.

In my opinion, the current tab setup of Opera allows these users to change the settings that looks most familiar to them without the other texts getting in the way. (Homepage, Passwords, Search Engine, Fonts before Advanced)

Your screenshot also shows an additional tab in one of the settings which I'm worried could result in having more than one area focused on advanced settings.

For ex. You have general settings and the advanced options of the general settings and later on an advanced options for the tab settings once you are viewing the tab sidebar contents, etc. etc.

That's what I mean by having one advanced tab to go to in the current setup.

I hope you're right about the blue highlight being the only thing getting in the way. I'm no expert at what attracts my own eyes but besides the larger font, I had assumed that the icons also had something to do with it.

No, that is just K-meleon's preferences menu. There's still the advances preferences menu and the configuration menu.

Here's the screenshot:

http://i14.tinypic.com/52cjnti.png

It's sort of similar to what you are proposing about opera:config if I understand you correctly.

F_V, I agree with your idea that Advanced sections could work. It would really depend on the implementation - if something could be done to avoid the mysteriousness of Advanced sections so as to tie the Advanced sections to specific parts of the preference window, I think most of the problems I have with Advanced sections could be avoided.

Trailing, I can see what you're saying now. My argument would be that the options Opera presents to you are not the most relevant to a newbie, and even with a bit of rethinking it would never get close to accomodating a good majority of people with a range of simple, "general" settings. This is why I think it's better to give up on the idea that you can make a really nice panel that suits 80% of people and slightly annoys the 20% of advanced users (the current solution), and instead find a way of presenting the same uniform interface to everybody so both simple and advanced users get the highly usable interface. This has the big advantage of avoiding the "ugh where are the proxy settings?" "where do I clear history?" "how do I turn off that mouse gesture crap?" problems that I believe newbie users often encounter. If there's no "advanced" section, there's no users wondering why their favourite option was filed away under "advanced" while a comparatively stupid-looking option like startup modes is available on the foremost section.

Oh god, regarding that K-meleon screenshot. Are you seriously recommending that? Opera used to do this in like.. version 3, and it was absolutely terrible. It's a chore to cycle through them. I think this presents a problem to Opera in particular - I'm one of the people who's under no illusion that Opera is for power users primarily, and I believe it is the sort of browser you think "Okay, let's go through the settings and see if I can fit this thing out to suit my needs", much more than IE, Safari or even Firefox to a degree. Having to go back and forwards between prefpanes is an even worse solution than Omniweb's atrocious prefpane (it's in my comparison image in the OP.)

+1 indeed
well we'll look at what Kestrel comes up with, but it really needs to be something like what you made...

just to spotlight that this wish is still one of my favs: *push*

Originally posted by serious:

this wish is still one of my favs

Agreed. It's kind of weird that the option 'confirm exit' is considered 'advanced' and 'search enginge' is a basic option

All of them +1

nice dig up ^^
+1 again.

-1 .. I'm already used to current settings and any changes makes old users of opera confused and the new users would be still confused too disregarding any changes...

+1 (just stumbled on this topic )

Originally posted by BS-Harou:

-1 .. I'm already used to current settings and any changes makes old users of opera confused and the new users would be still confused too disregarding any changes...

yeah! let's just sit and do not do anything, because well... you know, it might get too confusing O_o