Saturday, 5. August 2006, 08:26:44
Why do users not switch to Opera?
If Opera Software wishes to increase the effectiveness of Opera marketing campaigns, and Opera users wish to be more successful in advertising Opera to other non-Opera users, they must understand the users and why they switch - or don't switch - to Opera.Therefore, I hope everyone will suggest answers to the following questions. Hopefully the answers we receive will be useful for users advertising Opera, and Opera marketing campaigns.
1. Why do average users not try Opera in the first place?
This includes issues faced by other browsers that compete with IE, such as Firefox, and issues which are unique to Opera. This includes users who do not know about Opera, and users who have been introduced to Opera by a friend.
2. Why do average users, after trying Opera for a short period of time, decide not to switch to Opera?
This includes issues faced by other browsers that compete with IE, such as Firefox, and issues which are unique to Opera.
3. Why do average users, after using Opera for a long period of time, decide to switch to another browser?
"A long period of time" is generally at least a month, or sufficient time to get familiar with the interface and basic features of Opera. This includes disadvantages of Opera, as well as advantages of other browsers.
4. Why do technically-competent users not try Opera in the first place?
This includes issues faced by other browsers that compete with IE, such as Firefox, and issues which are unique to Opera. This includes users who do not know about Opera, and users who have been introduced to Opera by a friend. However, do note that technically-competent users are more likely to use Firefox.
5. Why do technically-competent users, after trying Opera for a short period of time, decide not to switch to Opera?
This includes issues faced by other browsers that compete with IE, such as Firefox, and issues which are unique to Opera. However, do note that technically-competent users are more likely to use Firefox.
6. Why do technically-competent users, after using Opera for a long period of time, decide to switch to another browser?
"A long period of time" is generally at least a month, or sufficient time to get familiar with the interface and basic features of Opera. This includes disadvantages of Opera, as well as advantages of other browsers.
Saturday, 5. August 2006, 14:52:53
2. If they switch after a short time, I think it usually is because they want Opera to do exactly the same thing as their previous browser. If they also find that their favorite page looks different in Opera, they'll give up.
3. They may be waiting for certain features that are already available in other browsers. Adblocking has been requested millions of time before we got content blocking in O9, HTML e-mail composing, extensions, support for all kinds op popular services (GMail, Yahoo, del.icio.us, betfair and whatnot).
Saturday, 5. August 2006, 18:27:59
Saturday, 5. August 2006, 18:37:32
http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=151035
and
http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=150844
Sunday, 6. August 2006, 09:21:20
Originally posted by scipio:
1. They don't know that there are other browsers than IE, or if they do, they don't know Opera or don't know why they should switch. FF has a certain coolness factor that Opera does not have (which is not necessarily related to the name and logo, but merely to the fact that FF is open source and is seen as the joint effort of a community of enthousiasts).
I noticed many sites which comment on Internet Explorer's various problems, and recommend Firefox as an alternative browser. If more such sites recommended Opera as an alternative browser, I think more users would be aware of Opera. We can't do anything about Firefox being open-source, however.
Originally posted by scipio:
2. If they switch after a short time, I think it usually is because they want Opera to do exactly the same thing as their previous browser. If they also find that their favorite page looks different in Opera, they'll give up.
I remember someone complaining about Opera's shortcut keys being different from IE's and FF's. Is Opera capable of "doing exactly the same thing as their previous browser"? Sometimes their favourite page looking different may be due to trival rendering differences between the two browsers, but otherwise, it is important to Open the Web.
Originally posted by scipio:
3. They may be waiting for certain features that are already available in other browsers. Adblocking has been requested millions of time before we got content blocking in O9, HTML e-mail composing, extensions, support for all kinds op popular services (GMail, Yahoo, del.icio.us, betfair and whatnot).
I agree that the two most common reasons for users abandoning Opera are that it lacks a certain feature, or many sites don't work in it. In my opinion, making Opera extensible will be a huge step, as extensibility may be a reason to switch to Firefox. Opera Software should also reach out to users and try to discover what features users want in the installation package. As for sites not working, that's why we need to Open the Web.
Once we have the answers to such questions, we can brainstorm for possible solutions. In the other thread, "Why do webmasters not make their sites Opera-friendly?", I brainstormed for solutions to some of the reasons provided.
In addition, there are some negative false perceptions about Opera that may prevent advanced users from switching or webmasters making their sites Opera-friendly. For example, many still don't know that Opera is now free. This issue should be discussed in a seperate thread.
Monday, 7. August 2006, 05:10:10
2. They get befuddled by having "too many" options, especially with the interface. Most people don't have the time or inclination to customize their browser to any substantial degree, but if you don't then Opera has few obvious benifits, so they try, get lost, and quit. Plus 2 other considerations: Opera doesn't deal with multimedia well on many sites (casual users don't understand when it is the site's problem, just blame Opera); and some sites don't render properly or just don't work at all. Doesn't take many of these to drive someone away from something that's a lot of trouble to begin with. Oh yeah, almost forgot, in addition to the above, many "average" users, especially home users, link the email program with the browser in their minds, and Opera's email client is useless for most folks.
3. Mostly these are people with the same problems as the folks in answer #2, just more patient. Or dumber.
4. You said it yourself "However, do note that technically-competent users are more likely to use Firefox." FF has the coolness factor cornered right now, and as most techies are deeply insecure socially, they have to use what's cool.
5. Most of these folks are just trying it out of curiosity, or to be able to tell their friends they tried it out, and have no intention of switching. See #4 above.
6. Well, I think this question is a bit off-target. I suspect that most "technically competent" users who spend a lot of time on a browser probably have more than one installed. For example, I have IE, FF & Opera on all 3 of my computers, and I know I am far from unusual. I prefer Opera (despite the bugs !!) and certainly use it the most, but the others get used on an as-needed basis. As to why Opera is not their Primary browser, there are a zillion possible reasons, such as one of the aforementioned bugs being particular annoying to a specific person, or not wanting to admit to their friends they don't use FF, or whatever. Of course quite a few folks actually like things that are more difficult to use - dealing with FF extensions is generally more trouble than customizing Opera, but you have to do it (with both browsers) to get something really functional for non-casual users - so they feel like they are more "involved" with the product, even if all they are doing is adapting it for their own convenience.
If Opera wants to hook more "technically-competent" users they need an API. However, personally I don't think these folks are really all that important. Who matters in the long run is the great unwashed, To get them Opera needs to fix the issues that affect them, improve the Help/Support system, and market better.
Monday, 7. August 2006, 06:13:28
Opera can't do it.
Monday, 7. August 2006, 22:51:46
My answer for #6 is several years out of date: Opera 4 was just not as capable as the early versions of Mozilla once they became stable enough to use on a regular basis. I was also in the process of switching to Linux at home, and when Opera 5 came out, the Linux version was sub-par. Add to that the UI clutter from Opera 5, the sense of familiarity with Mozilla (having been a long-term Netscape user before I discovered Opera), and the sense of excitement, of history in the making, that was present in the early Mozilla user community. Having switched from pre-Mozilla Netscape to Opera, I found myself switching "back" to Mozilla.
Times have, of course, changed. Opera 9 is quite capable and usable on both Windows and Linux. The clutter is long-gone. And the excitement that once drove Mozilla has largely subsided.
Which brings me to #5. Since Opera 8, each time a new version comes out, I use it like mad for a few days and then find myself settling back into the 80% Firefox / 20% Opera pattern. I don't use many extensions, and most of the ones I do use are only for web development, so it's not that. I've got my bookmarks more-or-less synced, and I don't let a browser save my passwords, so it's not settings.
At this point, I think it comes down to familiarity. Both browsers are well-past my personal "good-enough" threshold, so the one that feels more familiar ends up taking up the lion's share of my browsing time.
Tuesday, 8. August 2006, 02:20:25
Monday, 14. August 2006, 13:33:29
Tuesday, 15. August 2006, 00:40:09
Originally posted by fanfaron:
To answer the original question, I'd say: 1. It's not IE, that is, not bundled with Windows; 2. It wasn't built on the Netscape foundation like Firefox. In other words, name recognition. And the comfort factor of the familiar.
How does Opera build brand recognition? Some have commented that it is difficult to build brand recognition with the name "Opera" as it is not memorable and is often equated to music. However, I believe the numerous misconceptions surrounding Opera are a huge barrier to building brand recognition.
Tuesday, 15. August 2006, 07:42:36
Firefox definitely has the market cornered on "easy to use if you just came off IE." Opera is different in both its looks and behavior. It's scary if you're just stepping foot into a universe with no IE in it. I think (and forgive the Trekkie analogy because I'm a die-hard TNG fan) that we need to improve on our "First Contact". It's easy to make an Opera fan out of someone if you sit them down and tell them about all the nice features, but there just needs to be more information available for people who are switching from IE. I'm going to look into all the keyboard shortcuts on Firefox tomorrow while I'm at work and try to design a list of keyboard shortcuts in the latest versions of IE (7b3) and Firefox (1.5.0.4) paired off with their relevant strokes in Opera. Following that, I'm going to upload a file somewhere that has a modified keyset for Opera users who want it to behave more like one or the other. I'd like to see someone who is good at Flash make something of a tutorial for new Opera users. Perhaps something like this only smaller could be included in the install packages or on the Opera.com website?
Tuesday, 15. August 2006, 11:28:15
Usually, while they download the browsers, I will continue chatting with them on MSN Mesenger, and responding to any queries they have. Generally, they will prefer Firefox because it's apparently easier to use.
For most users, the first impression is critical, and ease of use is important for a good first impression, particularly among the less technologically-inclined.
Wednesday, 16. August 2006, 03:01:00
Originally posted by svivian:
4. My friend switched to FF from IE. He says it works fine for him so he won't even try Opera. I think it's because FF is "good enough", ie secure enough, fast enough, has enough features compared to IE.
You have to admit, oince you go from IE to Fx its pretty big step, and once you get used to that you dont want to switch, believe me, I was Opera alot, but I still use Fx just b/c Im so used to the way it works...
sad but true.Wednesday, 16. August 2006, 03:10:33
Originally posted by svivian:
4. My friend switched to FF from IE. He says it works fine for him so he won't even try Opera. I think it's because FF is "good enough", ie secure enough, fast enough, has enough features compared to IE.
You have to admit, oince you go from IE to Fx its pretty big step, and once you get used to that you dont want to switch, believe me, I use Opera alot, but I still use Fx just b/c Im so used to the way it works...
sad but true.edited for typos
Wednesday, 16. August 2006, 03:39:28 (edited)
Originally posted by Ace Jack Neo:
I don't know; it's tough. Firefox had a built-in advantage from the get-go. And there are certainly misconceptions, as you and jaggerblade point out. One is the myth "Opera is just soooo complicated to use". Another is a sort of "stigma" that Opera still carries for once being a for-fee (or ad-supported) browser. I heard a comment lately from a Firefox user who said "yeah, Opera's excellent, but the price is a little too steep for me, and I can't stand that ad banner." Apparently he didn't realize that it's been free (including ad-free) since last September. And this guy is pretty knowledgeable overall.
How does Opera build brand recognition? Some have commented that it is difficult to build brand recognition with the name "Opera" as it is not memorable and is often equated to music. However, I believe the numerous misconceptions surrounding Opera are a huge barrier to building brand recognition.
Originally posted by ProjectRAGE:
That's fine with me. People should use what they like and are comfortable with.I was Opera alot, but I still use Fx just b/c Im so used to the way it works... sad but true.
Wednesday, 16. August 2006, 10:09:09
More interesting would be to question:
- How did FF managed to be so popular in such a relatively short time?
- Why has Opera the stigma of a freaks only browser?
Of course there are plausible answers for the abowe questions as well but I doubt everybody here would be pleased to here all of them.
2. we have to differ between those switching from IE and those switching from FF.
Chances that IE users after trying Opera for a short period of time, decide not to switch to Opera are anyway lower. Main reason would be that no matter why, some sites and services don't work with Opera.
Those switching from FF expect Opera to do all the things FF does with its extensions.
Since Opera is very complex most users don't have the patience to read about how to use and configure Opera in order to fit all their personal needs. Complexity means also more configurability.
3. I wonder if there are many of them worth to be mentioned.
4. Probably because of the FF hype. Anyway I think that many of them already did.
5. One reason would be that no matter why, some sites and services don't work with Opera.
Another possible reason, they consider FF with its extensions to be the better alternative.
6. Wonder if this really happens. Only one subjective reason I could imagine, they are pissed of with later developement of Opera.
(All my answers are referring to Opera for Windows.)
Wednesday, 16. August 2006, 10:28:07
I go on about Opera quite a bit. I wear Opera t-shirts, I brand my Opera badge on my bag.
Just the other day, a fellow colleague came over to me and said 'Last night I updated my girlfriend's computer. I was going to put Firefox on it, but instead put Opera on it. It's quite cool. I think I might install it on my own when I get home.'
I also had one guy come up to me in the street when I was wearing my Opera t-shirt, stating of how he loves the Opera... I was quite amused at the fact that he meant the form of signing, and not the web browser. So, he asked what Opera Web Browser was, and I explained. He said 'Is it better than Internet Explorer?' to which I responded 'By far...' and he took the url off me to find out more about Opera.
I like to think he downloaded the browser that night too.
Wednesday, 16. August 2006, 22:02:30 (edited)
Originally posted by Krake:
Good question. I'm sorry to knock Firefox-- it's a really fine program with some great extensions...and the XUL and related technologies behind it are really brilliant and give end-users a lot of power. But every time I open Firefox I do find myself wondering what all the hoopla has been about. Over the past two or three weeks I've been exploring SeaMonkey more (the up-to-date version of the Mozilla Suite...that was dismembered and disowned by Mozilla to make the allegedly "leaner" Firefox and Thunderbird). I have to say I'm very, VERY impressed with SeaMonkey. It's faster and runs more smoothly than Firefox...and no crashes thus far. As someone pointed out in another forum I frequent, the entire allegedly "bloated" SeaMonkey suite is not much larger than Thunderbird itself. And using T-Bird and Firefox simultaneously? I'm of the belief now that the best cross-platform browsers available are probably Opera and SeaMonkey...which, after all, in principle is as extensible as Firefox.
- How did FF managed to be so popular in such a relatively short time?
As to how Firefox became so popular so quickly, I think maybe it's because a lot of tech-savvy people got on board with a lot of enthusiasm early on, and it took off from there. And remember, the Mozilla "brand" (to include Netscape) had been known by more people than were aware of Opera.
Thursday, 17. August 2006, 01:56:33
Thursday, 17. August 2006, 02:28:36
Originally posted by Krake:
- How did FF managed to be so popular in such a relatively short time?
- Why has Opera the stigma of a freaks only browser?
We may not like the answers, but we must face up to them.
Originally posted by coxy:
If you brand the name about enough, you can influence your mates.
I go on about Opera quite a bit. I wear Opera t-shirts, I brand my Opera badge on my bag.
Just the other day, a fellow colleague came over to me and said 'Last night I updated my girlfriend's computer. I was going to put Firefox on it, but instead put Opera on it. It's quite cool. I think I might install it on my own when I get home.'
I also had one guy come up to me in the street when I was wearing my Opera t-shirt, stating of how he loves the Opera... I was quite amused at the fact that he meant the form of signing, and not the web browser. So, he asked what Opera Web Browser was, and I explained. He said 'Is it better than Internet Explorer?' to which I responded 'By far...' and he took the url off me to find out more about Opera.
I like to think he downloaded the browser that night too.
We could pull of something like Spread Firefox.
Originally posted by fanfaron:
Good question. I'm sorry to knock Firefox-- it's a really fine program with some great extensions...and the XUL and related technologies behind it are really brilliant and give end-users a lot of power. But every time I open Firefox I do find myself wondering what all the hoopla has been about. Over the past two or three weeks I've been exploring SeaMonkey more (the up-to-date version of the Mozilla Suite...that was dismembered and disowned by Mozilla to make the allegedly "leaner" Firefox and Thunderbird). I have to say I'm very, VERY impressed with SeaMonkey. It's faster and runs more smoothly than Firefox...and no crashes thus far. As someone pointed out in another forum I frequent, the entire allegedly "bloated" SeaMonkey suite is not much larger than Thunderbird itself. And using T-Bird and Firefox simultaneously? I'm of the belief now that the best cross-platform browsers available are probably Opera and SeaMonkey...which, after all, in principle is as extensible as Firefox.
And your point is?
Comparing Opera and SeaMonkey...
Originally posted by fanfaron:
As to how Firefox became so popular so quickly, I think maybe it's because a lot of tech-savvy people got on board with a lot of enthusiasm early on, and it took off from there. And remember, the Mozilla "brand" (to include Netscape) had been known by more people than were aware of Opera.
Originally posted by Gary Sugar:
Most people have never heard of Opera.
What can we do about this? How are we going to raise awareness of Opera, and get technically-inclined people to be enthusiastic about Opera?
Originally posted by Gary Sugar:
Most people who've heard of Opera won't try it because they think it has ad banners.
How do we dispel this myth?
Originally posted by Gary Sugar:
Most people who've tried Opera think it's buggy because of problems at Google, Yahoo, MSN, and banking sites, or problems with flash plugins.
The solution? Find smaller websites which are Opera-friendly, and recommend them. http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=137678
Thursday, 17. August 2006, 02:48:44
Originally posted by Ace Jack Neo:
No, just wondering why Firefox is so popular when it has its own set of drawbacks: comparing Firefox and SeaMonkey, which is supposed to represent the "bloat" which Firefox was meant to correct.
Originally posted by fanfaron:
Good question. I'm sorry to knock Firefox-- it's a really fine program with some great extensions...and the XUL and related technologies behind it are really brilliant and give end-users a lot of power. But every time I open Firefox I do find myself wondering what all the hoopla has been about. Over the past two or three weeks I've been exploring SeaMonkey more (the up-to-date version of the Mozilla Suite...that was dismembered and disowned by Mozilla to make the allegedly "leaner" Firefox and Thunderbird). I have to say I'm very, VERY impressed with SeaMonkey. It's faster and runs more smoothly than Firefox...and no crashes thus far. As someone pointed out in another forum I frequent, the entire allegedly "bloated" SeaMonkey suite is not much larger than Thunderbird itself. And using T-Bird and Firefox simultaneously? I'm of the belief now that the best cross-platform browsers available are probably Opera and SeaMonkey...which, after all, in principle is as extensible as Firefox.
And your point is?
Comparing Opera and SeaMonkey...
Thursday, 17. August 2006, 11:08:37
Originally posted by fanfaron:
No, just wondering why Firefox is so popular when it has its own set of drawbacks: comparing Firefox and SeaMonkey, which is supposed to represent the "bloat" which Firefox was meant to correct.
I see.
One of Firefox's problems is memory leaks. It often crashes on certain pages (such as RuneScape).
In addition, extensions can actually cause problems. For example, extensions can cause conflicts. Some extensions may even offer a security risk.
Firefox is over-hyped. Opera is under-hyped. Opera needs some hype.
Thursday, 17. August 2006, 20:43:17 (edited)
operaguys!! it *is* worth it!! there was a *massive* campaign a while back, that saw FF plastered over almost everything - buildings, parties, you name it...
well thats #1 - they havent heard of it, there are no big things about it, so they are a bit dubious about it..
scipio is right about #2 - " If they switch after a short time, I think it usually is because they want Opera to do exactly the same thing as their previous browser. If they also find that their favorite page looks different in Opera, they'll give up." - they usually cant handle it, and have low patience...
#3 - higher patince level, but can be beaten by a new mediaplayer (lack of) functionality, new flash that confuses opera, and more websites using *both* (just to launch a video file!!!
) in a completely complex way, that of course works in IE (and all thoughts of security go out the window!!)#4 - well, a lot of the techs like playing with a lot of things.. they get bored with the fancy bits, then are seduced by the auto-coffee-machine -webcam watcher extension, and the latest similar extension for FF... I dont think the age is that high (there are not so many comments, now they are on vacation..)
#5 - as above, they have *actually* tried it, just to prove a point....
#6 - got pissed off about the changes in opera, and cant bother to ask?? - I see a few first posts, saying 'Ive been using it for years, now it doesnt work!!'
When I first got into opera, I worked very hard, to get understanding... and when a lot of things changed, found a lot of apathy, even in self-proclaimed 'web standards' sites... did not give up, asked for help, and got a good lot of knowledge.... it is all there, you just have to search and ask...
oh yes, and it is good to see people coming back to opera from FF, after its latest bloat...
Wednesday, 23. August 2006, 11:39:59
M2 is great! However it is lacking features essential to my day to day work.
I am a long time FFx user, and have not encountered pages that do not work. However I have, on occasion discovered pages that don't work in Opera (The free sound project, for instance logs me out). There is nothing wrong with the browser as such, but websites are not spending time developing for it.
I work for a large website myself, we make sure everything WORKS in opera, but we do not put large amounts of development time into making it work perfectly. There is not the market share to warrent the extra time.
This is an issue of community support more than anything I realise the browser is perfectly capable of working.
However - all is not lost, I still recommend Opera as a browser in conjunction with FireFox depending on what I see the user's needs to be. I will continue to try using Opera and seeing if the web has caught up, I just can not make it my primary browser yet.
There were a few things I found hard to get my head around, such as organising my "Personal Bar", this is a throwback to FFx, but I expect to be able to drag a link to a folder, or create new folders straight from the bar. Also, I found that navigation buttons not behaving as links (allowing middle clicks) cumbersome.
As a web developer I would rate myself technically competant. I regularly try new browsers.
Wednesday, 23. August 2006, 12:06:48
When someone tells me they use IE even though they know it's unsafe and then just state their is no alternative, I always point out that I use Opera. I also point out that there also is Firefox. The Firefox fanboys (as all their users seem to be) would never point out another browser.
1. If average users look for alternatives on the internet they are always pointed to FX.
2. Coming from IE: More complexity really, it's why my Mum won't switch, it's still too compticated for her. I don't get it :s
Coming from FX: They always say extensions...
3. I don't know people that are smart to use it for a month and know features that switch away, but I guess it would happen if they haven't found the advanced options yet. (opera:config)
4. FX is Open-Source, people believe this automatically makes software good.
5. They lie to themselves saying Opera is not good, all these nice features can be made to work in FX as well with extensions that hog my memeory.
6. They lie to themselves even more.
Tuesday, 5. September 2006, 17:59:15
When I first decided to move away from IE, I searched for alternative browsers and was presented with the choice of either the Mozilla suite (this was before Firefox came out) or Opera (which at that time had the adbar that you had to pay to remove) I decided there was no way I was paying for a web browser and went with the Mozilla suite, forgetting about Opera until I read somewhere (probably the Register) that Opera was finally going ad free. When that happened I decided to give Opera a try, I found that it is a very good browser, but doesn't compel me to ditch Firefox in the way that I was compelled to ditch IE.
Firefox is the browser that alternative everyone has heard of, it's had the time to build up hype and a growing number of users and converts (and fanboys) that IMHO Opera missed out on when they had that adbar. For a long time, when people were moving away from IE to avoid adware, Opera was adware. Opera now have a fair bit of catching up to do and removing the adbar was the best thing Opera did. Trouble is, it still hasn't got out yet, one year and two versions after the event.
I think things like Opera Mini and Opera for the DS are good moves on the part of Opera, in that users of these devices become aware of Opera, not Firefox and when the time comes that these users get access to a PC and decide that they also want to ditch IE, then it can be pointed out that Opera is available for their computer and I'd think they'd be more likely to go with the familiar name (which would be Opera)
Wednesday, 6. September 2006, 16:14:15
In addition, we need to think of ways to increase hype and encourage users to adopt Opera. Firefox has employed a similar strategy with great success.
Thursday, 7. September 2006, 05:28:49
Thursday, 7. September 2006, 16:32:09
1. Why do average users not try Opera in the first place?
The name is ugly. All I can think of are old people and load fat women
(if there's some sort of special meaning then please enlighten me )
Just one question. How many people have switched directly to Opera without trying out firefox.
2. Why do average users, after trying Opera for a short period of time, decide not to switch to Opera?
Heh... I use opera... I like it for its looks the recycle bin thingy and the fact that it save my last session. But I hate everything else.
I won't lie... I won't recommend Opera to my friends and if someone wants to switch from IE I'll always recommend Firefox. So Opera is faster, big deal. Because it loads things faster then others it just means you'll see some shity version of the page before you see the real thing. What's the point, it's not like people with "more modest" connections will wait until everything is completely loaded, they'll click some button before that. And considering most people today have fast connections speed isn't that big of a deal.
Tell me what exactly is so great to switching to Opera ?
BTW do you people actually understand how the average IE user thinks. 90% of them have no tech knowledge and don't care how things work, they see stuff like settings as something that should not be touched. Besides do you really expect them to switch to Opera and just dump every habit they had for some little program called Opera that takes from a day to a week to understand (for the average Firefox users it should take from 5-15 minutes to get accustomed to). And for what 0.01 seconds less loading time, it's not like people are really in that big of a hurry when they surf the net.
My point is that if IE users switch to Opera they'll loose much more time learning it then they gain using it.
3. Why do average users, after using Opera for a long period of time, decide to switch to another browser?
You can't expect people to just figure out if something is good or bad (for them) from the get go.
If Firefox adds the little recycle bin thingy and the option to load previous session on start-up I'll probably switch back to Firefox. It's as simple as that.
It's not that Firefox has more then Opera, its that Firefox has less, and that less is better done (things like RSS feeds for example) so that less is more. It's all nice that there are a lot of options but what's the point if its so hard to use them. The information is there but the way its presented is so stupid. I mean do I use the browser to visit the site or to look at hundreds of options. (who the hell uses that many of them anyway)
They're so bulky. Sure there's nothing wrong with giving people options and information but what's the point if I can't see the damn page. I mean there are a lot of sites that have simple layout and things like the panels are too much of an eyesore. Why can't they just be simple or transparent or just smart enough to auto-hide themselves when they're not needed ?
Why is Firefox better ?! Because the damn things are simpler to use and simpler in design so theyre smarter. For example if I use an RSS feed I don't have to click Feeds then search for the one I want (the bold and stupid icons are annoying BTW) then click on that then big fat lists appear with tons of things in it I really don't need to see (and in damn bold again) then I have to search to see if there's anything I like... bla bla bla... then I have to look up and find the tab (well it should be the last one) and click the close button.
The Firefox version would be something like this : I click the RSS feed (scroll-list appears), I search for anything I like.. bla bla bla... then just go back to whatever I was doing. Then there's the matter of the bittorrent thing. People that didn't know or didn't care about torrents still don't know and don't care, but at least people that care about torrents got pissed off. I mean why is the damn option to turn it off so hidden. (tools > preferences > advanced > download > deselect the "hide file types opened by Opera" box > search for torrent > edit > bla bla bla.
Almost nobody uses bittorrent as the torrent download client, they use Azureus, Utorrent or Bitcomet. and what person that likes and uses torrents would want to have a torrent client integrated in the browser.
4. Why do technically-competent users not try Opera in the first place?
5. Why do technically-competent users, after trying Opera for a short period of time, decide not to switch to Opera?
6. Why do technically-competent users, after using Opera for a long period of time, decide to switch to another browser?
Why should they ?
They're technically-competent friends don't use it.
It's quite simple. No technically competent user will see Opera as an efficient choice to do they're technically-competent work.
How should I put it. Firefox is the better browser. Opera is the more fancy and extravagant browser.
Firefox is the better browser not because of the design but because of the technically-competent users.
Whenever someone creates an website for one reason or another they preview it in Firefox. So almost every site on the net is custom made for Firefox, it's not that Firefox has better browsing tech then Opera it's just that the people who made the websites made a lot of stuff using firefox to check if it's good. After they create an website some people like to tell they're visitors what browser it's best viewed on, so what are they going to say. Well they're certainly not going to say Opera. Let's say they preview it in IE. When they finish the site if they decide to say what browser the site is best viewed on they'll still say Firefox. Why ?! Because word has it Firefox is the hotest browser on the net and it runs ALL sites perfectly.
Another reason would be technically-inclined users usually see programs that are at version 9 for example as being unreliable. It's the idea that it wasn't updated to make it better, "it was updated because it was so shity and chances are it still is" or something to that idea. That's probably why most pieces of software when reaching a certain version change name (for example Photoshop 5, 6, 7.... CS CS2)
And lastly technicly-inclined users love the idea : less is more, simpler is better, that and they like control, in other words the fact that they download Opera as a internet browser and the thing automatically installs tons of stuff they usually won't use (no matter how you look at it there's always something you don't need) brings hatred.
You can tell people that Opera doesn't load those things but what technically-competent user would buy that. I mean you look at Opera's memory consumption and see it's a resource hog and you wonder if that it uses that much memory when I'm only using it as a browser how much will it use when I use some of the other little annoying gadgets it has. So Firefox has memory leaks, what does that mean that Opera was created as an resource hog ?!!!!
Another thing techniclly-inclined users are smart enough not to trust publicity statements or statistics.
For example I could say "80% of people that know of Opera use forums and they're the also the ones that browse the net the most and Opera is ignoring all their feedback" but how the heck do I know it's 80%. Same goes for the speed statistics. I open a site in Opera and then I open a site in Firefox and I think it loaded in firefox faster.
Well the general idea is : just how fast is fastest. I mean is the difference that great, saying that Browser X is faster then Y by 0.0001 seconds doesn't mean much. And of course this browser speed comparison is starting from the premise that all other conditions are ideal and its all up to the browser.
In addition, we need to think of ways to increase hype and encourage users to adopt Opera. Firefox has employed a similar strategy with great success.
Increase hype ?
Are you kidding me. They way Opera could increase hype would be to just create a lite version that doesn't have all the extras.
Use the chance to rename it (just give it a cool name and use opera as a sub name for it). Describe it as a alternative sub option for opera and make it, how should I put it, just a "lite and smart" browser.
Make the browser friendly for web developers or noobs wanabees. For example make it so the browser automatically refreshes the page if it detects a change in the file opened from the hdd. Or just make it so the browser can simulate a server : so people can test server-side part of the page without uploading it to a host or set up their own server for it.
Well anything to make Opera a favorite browser for testing websites. That way there would be a lot of sites that were made in opera and hence it would become popular. Simply put people would tell their friends about it and they would tell their friends and so on. Way better publicity then placing posters and adds everywhere.
Well there are tons of other ways to make opera more... uhh... wanted. But lets face it the people that design Opera follow the same mentality as those for IE. So a change in Opera will come when all hell freezes over.
Contrary to popular belief technically-inclined people aren't closed minded idiots they like to chat share ideas and so on. So one of the biggest thing that annoys them is the fact that Opera has no respect for forums. Lets face it the last place you want to use Opera is on the forum. Almost every other browser works fine. just opera like to make thing hard.
I noticed many sites which comment on Internet Explorer's various problems, and recommend Firefox as an alternative browser. If more such sites recommended Opera as an alternative browser, I think more users would be aware of Opera. We can't do anything about Firefox being open-source, however.
Most people don't even know what that means... and most of the people that do don't care....
The only attributes people want to hear are : "100% FREE" "no-ads"
I remember someone complaining about Opera's shortcut keys being different from IE's and FF's. Is Opera capable of "doing exactly the same thing as their previous browser"? Sometimes their favourite page looking different may be due to trival rendering differences between the two browsers, but otherwise, it is important to Open the Web.
I'm sure there are a lot more people that are that hate Opera's mouse event things that tend to pop up or the fact that forum-shortcut -things aren't supported.
I agree that the two most common reasons for users abandoning Opera are that it lacks a certain feature, or many sites don't work in it. In my opinion, making Opera extensible will be a huge step, as extensibility may be a reason to switch to Firefox. Opera Software should also reach out to users and try to discover what features users want in the installation package. As for sites not working, that's why we need to Open the Web.
I would really appreciate it if I had the possibility to just install opera as a browser with just the options needed to make it easy for me to go to sites. I think many people feel the same way.
I don't get it. It's suppose to be a browser... why isn't the focus on a better browsing experience?!
1. They never heard of it, and don't have any reason (from their perspective) to switch if they have, and it's a lot of trouble for the casual user. They may be concerned about security in IE, but if so all their techie friends tell them to use FF.
Many people associate higher security with slow speed or resource hogging.
Realistically specking the casual user shouldn't (and dont) exactly care that much for security.
2. They get befuddled by having "too many" options, especially with the interface. Most people don't have the time or inclination to customize their browser to any substantial degree, but if you don't then Opera has few obvious benefits, so they try, get lost, and quit. Plus 2 other considerations: Opera doesn't deal with multimedia well on many sites (casual users don't understand when it is the site's problem, just blame Opera); and some sites don't render properly or just don't work at all. Doesn't take many of these to drive someone away from something that's a lot of trouble to begin with. Oh yeah, almost forgot, in addition to the above, many "average" users, especially home users, link the email program with the browser in their minds, and Opera's email client is useless for most folks.
Well… I personally try as hard as I can to customize the thing. But the way it's designed you can't exactly customize it. It's more like you want or you don't want. For example weather I remove elements like history from the panel or I don't the thing still takes as much space. So it's basically you wanted all or you don't.
That's probably one of the reasons I use Full screen a lot. And browse using F2
4. You said it yourself "However, do note that technically-competent users are more likely to use Firefox." FF has the coolness factor cornered right now, and as most techies are deeply insecure socially, they have to use what's cool.
Idea : Make Opera cooooler.
6. Well, I think this question is a bit off-target. I suspect that most "technically competent" users who spend a lot of time on a browser probably have more than one installed. For example, I have IE, FF & Opera on all 3 of my computers, and I know I am far from unusual. I prefer Opera (despite the bugs !!) and certainly use it the most, but the others get used on an as-needed basis.
Same here. Firefox for sites that don't work and IE for sites that are old or don't work in Firefox.
At this point, I think it comes down to familiarity. Both browsers are well-past my personal "good-enough" threshold, so the one that feels more familiar ends up taking up the lion's share of my browsing time.
Opera is more familiar to me.
Opera gets mentioned rarely and has rather the stigma of freaks only browser.
"Opera" as it is not memorable and is often equated to music
Well think about it... In the Opeara people dress up.
In Opera 9 what was exactly the promotional theme.... hmm...
Besides if you stick most of the logos provided here on a site somewhere then the first thing that comes to mind to the potential converts is :
"Oh look my ad-blocker is malfunctioning !" or "Oh an add about some circus."
Let's face it you really have to like Opera a lot to place one of those things on a site.
That being using people as publicity is a characteristic of big userfeedback-ignorant companies.
While small and simple logo's are a lot more friendly and promote trust.
I actually think that there is something to be said for this non-technically-competent users group. My mother, likely in the same camp as most of yours, is not a computer whiz by any stretch of the imagination. Though she works on one all day, day in and day out, there is not a "savvy" or "computer literate" bone in her body. Embarrassment for her aside, she tried Firefox and I was constantly getting called over to help her understand its popup blocking and how to get plugins for it. The fact is, I used to recommend Firefox to a lot of my non-technical friends who were accumulating spyware with IE, because I thought it was easier for IE users to get used to, despite Opera being my personal preference. The thing is, though, one day I finally decided to update the home computer to Opera 9 and it wasn't long before I got a phone call from my mother who wanted it installed on her personal laptop. Contrary to my suspicion she was completely able to figure out Opera on her own, and after a brief tutorial on some of it's neat native features she swears she'll never use another browser. She's now an Opera fan.
Very nice story.
But I think you unconsciously thought her more then how to use firefox. If you tech someone one thing then if a another similar thing comes up it will be assimilated easier.
For most users, the first impression is critical, and ease of use is important for a good first impression, particularly among the less technologically-inclined.
I'm more technologically-inclined and I still don't have that good of impression about Opera.
For me the way Opera installs tons of programs (or whatever you want to call them) is the same as some program installing spyware or firefox installing every plugin for it on the planet.
The thing is that when people choose Opera they choose it as a browser not as their new mail client torrent client irc client and so on.
- How did FF managed to be so popular in such a relatively short time?
It listened to user-feedback. Fixed some of the big browsing difficulties. Security and speed isn't something the average user will notice or care much about. Well it's not like Opera is so much faster then Firefox to make it an advantage.
Anyway the important thing is it worked as a browser and it still does.
Thursday, 7. September 2006, 17:05:09
Originally posted by BlackCatXIII:
1. Why do average users not try Opera in the first place?
Just one question. How many people have switched directly to Opera without trying out firefox.
I don't know, you tell me
2. Why do average users, after trying Opera for a short period of time, decide not to switch to Opera?
Heh... I use opera... I like it for its looks the recycle bin thingy and the fact that it save my last session. But I hate everything else.
Session saving is available as an extension as Firefox, I use it all the time.
Tell me what exactly is so great to switching to Opera ?
What's so great about switching to Firefox?
BTW do you people actually understand how the average IE user thinks. 90% of them have no tech knowledge and don't care how things work, they see stuff like settings as something that should not be touched.
Opera users tend not to generalise, nor do I, as a Firefox user, perhaps it's my time in Opera every now and again that sorted that out
Besides do you really expect them to switch to Opera and just dump every habit they had for some little program called Opera that takes from a day to a week to understand (for the average Firefox users it should take from 5-15 minutes to get accustomed to). And for what 0.01 seconds less loading time, it's not like people are really in that big of a hurry when they surf the net.
So, you're saying that the "average IE user" is far too stupid to be able to use an alternative browser. Why should they dump every little habit they've learned for a little progam called Firefox that, by your assumption, is also beyond the average IE user?
My point is that if IE users switch to Opera they'll loose much more time learning it then they gain using it.
But don't IE users loose time by learning Firefox? You only have to learn how to use a browser once and it's not that hard!
3. Why do average users, after using Opera for a long period of time, decide to switch to another browser?
You can't expect people to just figure out if something is good or bad (for them) from the get go.
If Firefox adds the little recycle bin thingy and the option to load previous session on start-up I'll probably switch back to Firefox. It's as simple as that.
Then get thee to https://addons.mozilla.org and switch back, we're not keeping you. I'd have thought the average Firefox would have known about extensions, but that would be the Firefox user in me generalising again...
It's not that Firefox has more then Opera, its that Firefox has less, and that less is better done (things like RSS feeds for example) so that less is more. It's all nice that there are a lot of options but what's the point if its so hard to use them. The information is there but the way its presented is so stupid. I mean do I use the browser to visit the site or to look at hundreds of options. (who the hell uses that many of them anyway)
Opera's more is very nicely done, and one of the things that keeps me on Firefox isn't so much the "less" but the fact that the "less" can be added to and customised, one point of view would be that Opera's extra features are froth, but you don't have to use them. Firefox came from a suite and there was enough of an outcry when Mozilla killed off that suite that developers got together and rechristened it SeaMonkey
Almost nobody uses bittorrent as the torrent download client, they use Azureus, Utorrent or Bitcomet. and what person that likes and uses torrents would want to have a torrent client integrated in the browser.
Is the Bittorrent client targetted at those who already know of other clients, again you don't have to use it if you don't want to.
4. Why do technically-competent users not try Opera in the first place?
5. Why do technically-competent users, after trying Opera for a short period of time, decide not to switch to Opera?
6. Why do technically-competent users, after using Opera for a long period of time, decide to switch to another browser?
Why should they ?
They're technically-competent friends don't use it.
No, your techincally-competent friends (none of whom told you about extensions) don't use Opera.
It's quite simple. No technically competent user will see Opera as an efficient choice to do they're technically-competent work.
But Opera is very efficient in my experience and has a lot of nice features and tricks I couldn't find in Firefox even with extensions that I found cool.
How should I put it. Firefox is the better browser. Opera is the more fancy and extravagant browser.
Firefox is the better browser not because of the design but because of the technically-competent users.
In your opinion.
Whenever someone creates an website for one reason or another they preview it in Firefox. So almost every site on the net is custom made for Firefox, it's not that Firefox has better browsing tech then Opera it's just that the people who made the websites made a lot of stuff using firefox to check if it's good.
Far more browsers and custom made for IE, according to you, IE is a better browser than Firefox. Why did you switch?
Thursday, 7. September 2006, 18:05:08 (edited)
To summarize the known problems of opera:
1. It lacked marketing when most needed (IT boom after 2000)and failed to be adfree. It still lacks advertisement and spreading the word.
2. Problems with displaying pages is a great challenge, many times due to lack of standards, due browser sniffing and sometimes may be(if any, I don't know) due to opera itself (which is not surprising for any browser)
3. It is also true due to lack of market share, developers don't test sites in opera. Previously they did not test in anything other than IE but at least some of them tests in firefox. Thats good sign for any alternate browser.
So, I don't see any technical point where opera lacks. All your impressions will change as marketing scenerio changes.
Consider a very absurd, hypothetical scenerio: If windows ships opera/firefox as default browser instead of IE, then many users will use that even without judging the merit of the browser. Developer's will definitely check sites if that works with opera/firefox or not. Now, will that mean opera/firefox turned into great browser overnight? definitely not. So, all our apparant conlcusions may not be right.
having said that, I still think opera is a great browser. You personally may not like it but your journey for finding best alternative browser will not end in firefox because it has many problems too.You might want to know what e-week says:"For that matter, unless Firefox 2.0 and IE 7 improve greatly before their respective releases later in 2006, neither will come close to topping the quality of the already shipping Opera 9."
So, user should have patience before throwing out any browser and be happy with what serves better for you now.
Thursday, 7. September 2006, 18:16:26
Originally posted by BlackCatXIII:
- How did FF managed to be so popular in such a relatively short time?
It listened to user-feedback.
I doubt that this would be a valid argument. Besides they didn't have to. (Keep in mind that it is open source, everybody with programming skills has access to the source)
Imagine Opera would listen to all user-feedback they get.
Hundreds of more or less pointless whishes. (Keep in mind that most whishes are coming from non technical users, simply because they are representing the vast majority)
Opera would be right now a colorful bloated monster with a very cool name
Wonder if there is a FF-user who doesn't use at least one extension. Probably none.
Wonder also if there is a FF-user who uses all the available extensions. Probably none.
Anyway all of them have the choice.
Through FF's extensions you have full access to the functionality of the browser.
That makes the browser so attractive for technically-competent users with some programming skills.
Also those technically-competent users will advert FF with every ocasion...
In the meantime I wonder how many technically-competent users with programming skills will waste their time by making widgets. (No offends intended toward those few who do)
Thursday, 7. September 2006, 22:32:47
Then get thee to https://addons.mozilla.org and switch back, we're not keeping you. I'd have thought the average Firefox would have known about extensions, but that would be the Firefox user in me generalising again...
Heh... I know of that site...
If it was that simple I would have switched a long time ago...
As far as I'm concern I've managed to drill myself with Opera
Not to mention the numerous other reasons... like for example I can't import to firefox my bookmarks (and I have too many and am too lazy to import them manually) then there's the fact that I think all firefox skin/themes suck and I'm in love with Opera's standard skin and of course Opera is the only browser in which the full screen mode is nice and clean (in IE you have the stupid and ugly close and minimize bottom at the top and in firefox you have the these stupid buttons and the address bar...) opera displays nice and fancy buttons in webpages bla bla bla...
Ok ATM I'm devoted Opera fangirl...
2. Problems with displaying pages is a great challenge, many times due to lack of standards, due browser sniffing and sometimes may be(if any, I don't know) due to opera itself (which is not surprising for any browser)
No one would care if it was just any god-forsaken page... it's that some particularly "important" (let's say that a lot of people know of them) seem to have problems with Opera. It would be nice if some future version would have some sneaky system of dealing with these pages so future (and current) Opera users don't have to go to other browsers to see the page. An simple idea would bet that if the user enters the site Opera acts a little differently so the site works.
BTW how exactly does the "Help/Report a site problem" thing work... ? (I know what I do/have to do... what happens next ?)
Opera would be right now a colorful bloated monster with a very cool name
Lol... I agree...
I think you misunderstood a little... that suggestion were I mentioned adding some things was just an example and not my personal wish.
I personally don't want any new features I just want fewer and a little improvement on some of the current ones. It would be nice for example if the panel would have an option to auto-hide and would also be available in full-screen mode.
When I said "fewer" I meant the ability to choose some of the features like torrent and mail support when I install Opera, it would avoid a lot of headaches. Especially with torrents. That option is very obscure some people might actually think it doesn't exist.
BTW were do I report bugs... ? For example I tried all the options in the torrent section but can't seem to make Opera auto-open torrent files with my torrent client when I click it. Whatever I try it just shows me the open/save dialog.
Also those technically-competent users will advert FF with every ocasion...
Yeah... well you can't really blame them... everybody (for the first weeks after they finish it) sees their work as absolutely perfect
(generally speaking)having said that, I still think opera is a great browser. You personally may not like it but your journey for finding best alternative browser will not end in firefox because it has many problems too.You might want to know what e-week says:"For that matter, unless Firefox 2.0 and IE 7 improve greatly before their respective releases later in 2006, neither will come close to topping the quality of the already shipping Opera 9."
Hmm... I should stop drinking and posting
I'll put it simpler : I love Opera... I just hate little bits of it.
I'm the minimalist type.
I don't need/want mail clients have no idea what the heck those note things do and hate the way the Panels are designed to take out 25% of the screen. Well things like that.
But don't IE users loose time by learning Firefox? You only have to learn how to use a browser once and it's not that hard!
I just like to bring that torrent thing up.
It's very hard for them to learn that
(to reset it that is)So, you're saying that the "average IE user" is far too stupid to be able to use an alternative browser. Why should they dump every little habit they've learned for a little progam called Firefox that, by your assumption, is also beyond the average IE user?
Firefox doesn't have all of these integrated features built into it. And it doesn't require a hole lot of know-how to set up.
All that IE users do is just type the addresses into Firefox instead of IE. Not much of a change is it.
Anyway I was referring more to things like IRC clients or toolbars, torrents and stuff like that.
Firefox is recognized as the alternative browser and many sites support it in they're features. To be more precise in their spy-were infested toolbars. Were would the average IE people be without a hundred toolbars polluting the screen.
(j/k) I wasn't talking about IE users in general I was talking about those people that make up the majority. I know those types all too well.
They know little to nothing about anything, will always fall for the "You're computer has Spywere. Click me to get more" button
, see things like the menu bar as some super technical thingy and will probably never click anything in it. (except the favorites button of course) Stuff like that. Basically the average IE user isn't as informed and experienced as the average FireFox user.
So, I don't see any technical point where opera lacks. All your impressions will change as marketing scenerio changes.
Consider a very absurd, hypothetical scenerio: If windows ships opera/firefox as default browser instead of IE, then many users will use that even without judging the merit of the browser. Developer's will definitely check sites if that works with opera/firefox or not. Now, will that mean opera/firefox turned into great browser overnight? definitely not. So, all our apparant conlcusions may not be right.
Yes that's true.
Also you are right Opera doesnt lack technical points. As far as technology goes, it's the most complete broweser. It lacks a little user friendliness
It's got more "stuff" compared to FF and IE (and it looks better too) but if it can't balance it out with smarter layouts and innovative little ideas then all that "stuff" is just dead wait that will drag it down. Well just my opinion
Getting back to the topic of the thread my idea above would be that the people in category #5 (5. Why do technically-competent users, after trying Opera for a short period of time, decide not to switch to Opera?) give up on Opera because it's too bulky. Like I said earlier some of the thing (like RSS feeds) could have been different. (or at least an option would exist to make 'em so).
Well you could say that the #5 category are the slow people that take a long time to go over the setting in Opera. Well can't blame them it has so many it might as well have a wizard to set them up. (with explanations on what the heck they do of course)
It would be a lot easier.
Hmm... a little website to do that would work just as well
Ahh yes the same for #6 as well.
Opera users tend not to generalise, nor do I, as a Firefox user, perhaps it's my time in Opera every now and again that sorted that out
Heh... Opera makes people better
Anyway sorry about that it just that it's hard to keep patient when your thinking and writing simultaneously.
I think I generalized a little in this post as well... upss
Far more browsers and custom made for IE, according to you, IE is a better browser than Firefox. Why did you switch?
Just because I named it last doesn't mean I think it runs all the sites. As I see it if a site doesn't run under Opera and Firefox then it's one of those ancient fossils and chances are that it might have been tested on IE. That's why i said if it doesn't work with FF I go for IE. Most sites seem to work better with Firefox then IE. (probably because of the bugs)
In your opinion.How should I put it. Firefox is the better browser. Opera is the more fancy and extravagant browser.
Firefox is the better browser not because of the design but because of the technically-competent users.
I bet you were thinking of extensions...
Let me expand a little :
Firefox is the better browser (I'm not talking of the full package I mean you can browse more sites with it with less chance for error)
Opera is the more fancy and extravagant browser. (as in you have almost every little thingamajig you'll ever want or not in one package... and sites and stuff look better in Opera IMO)
Firefox is the better browser not because of the design but because of the technically-competent users. (not the people that make firefox extension or anyone else that has anything to do with the firefox project I'm talking about the people that make websites. I know the main focus is on IE compatibility but if they make some little addon or something they'll think about Firefox as well. In other words Firefox's popularity and accessibility (read : easy installation) is its greatest feature.)
Any objections... ?
Is the Bittorrent client targetted at those who already know of other clients, again you don't have to use it if you don't want to.
The setting is very hard to find.
BTW why is bittorent the default. I mean why isn't utorrent integrated.
Bittorrent (aka Mainline) is old and seriously outdated and outclassed. Wait tell me this isn't that rare Bittorrent++ thingy that's been banned off the face of the net.
Well you are right it's not targeted at people like me but I like to think that most Opera users are more knowledgeable then average joe so it would be for the best (IMHO) if the torrent option was easily disabled.
Session saving is available as an extension as Firefox, I use it all the time.
Thanks for the tip
I found it seems to work fine. But I'll still use Opera.
Wonder if there is a FF-user who doesn't use at least one extension. Probably none.
I can tell you now there isn't.
How can I be so sure... easy...
I went and found the extension that geoneil mentioned earlier (namely Session Manager 0.4.3) I attempted to installed it on the little non-standard firefox version I currently had. (a Firefox with an even cooler name and logo
)No surprised it didn't work. I then proceeded to install standard Firefox. I just went to the site... *click* *click* all done. Now I went back to the site and installed the extension. While installing I notice something. There were 2 other extensions already installed.
So yeah every Firefox user has at least 1 extension since 2 extensions are automatically installed when you install Firefox, those would be : DOM Inspector and talkbar.
In the meantime I wonder how many technically-competent users with programming skills will waste their time by making widgets.
I visited the widgets page and all I remember seeing were clocks and calculators I think.
Just how far can you take the widgets thing ? Can they interact with the browser ?
I doubt that this would be a valid argument. Besides they didn't have to. (Keep in mind that it is open source, everybody with programming skills has access to the source)
Imagine Opera would listen to all user-feedback they get.
Hundreds of more or less pointless whishes. (Keep in mind that most whishes are coming from non technical users, simply because they are representing the vast majority)
I was talking about feedback regarding "bugs" (that in most cases isn't Opera's fault)
I know it's unreasonable to ask for Opera to open sloppy sites. But there must be a way to make them work at least the ones that are critically dead to Opera like Imageshack.us I know there are other imagehosts out there but very few offer the thumbnail alternative and are as reliable as Imageshack and it's really annoying that you have to go to Firefox to make it work.
Well yeah Firefox still has bugs…
Friday, 8. September 2006, 21:56:20
Ok after writing the post above I went to check on the widgets thing... I never was able to check since for some reason the page wouldn't load. Well it works seems to work ATM
Anyway back to the rest of the story... since I couldn't enter the widgets page I went on a quest to find what the "notes" button does. In my search I just happen to stumble in the little tutorial page department. For some reason or another after reading a little on some of the main functions and lots and lots of shortcut keys the browser became 10... no 50 times better... I found a lot of neat functions and short way of doing things (like nick addresses)... ok I'm still ctrl + 6 and looking at a little note I made of all the little shortcut keys I want... well it only been a day I can't remember them in one go...
I also managed to answer a lot of the important questions in my post above.
Anyway now that I now a little how some of the things work. (ok so I get something like 4-5 Java this Java that errors when I go to the Mail panel... but at least the stigma is gone... I don't see Opera as some bulky browser anymore... and I feel like it the best browser on earth
Anyway... I didn't post here to tell you that story I posted here because I still remember what and how I was doing things before... and probably have a more helpful opinion now.
Ok I'll just answer the questions again...
1. Why do average users not try Opera in the first place?
This includes issues faced by other browsers that compete with IE, such as Firefox, and issues which are unique to Opera. This includes users who do not know about Opera, and users who have been introduced to Opera by a friend.
I still can't really answer the question... It's not like I switched from IE...
All I can say is...
If he/she is an IE user then there is a very high probability that he/she doesn't use a lot of programs(I'm referring of course to programs that aren't tied tightly with windows or more exactly Microsoft)so it's a good idea not to mention a lot of Opera's function. It's simple, if you start blabbing about how Opera does this and that then all you're doing is scaring them.
I'll just give a personal example... before I read about how the mail and notes thingys work I thought of them as little monsters and no matter what I did (turned them of or deleted every little button in the panel of example) I still felt like they were annoying me somehow. The thing is this : when I didn't know how they worked they were annoying as hell (just like some small insignificant bug... that doesn't effect much... but everyone gets pissed of about it... I'm sure people know the feeling). Now that I know what they do and used them a little (used the notes thing to make me a list of all the shortcuts I would like to adopt or at least know) I don't even feel like they're there anymore... it's like they're totally insignificant now... hell now that I adopted a few shortcuts I love the panel thing.
My point : If you want to convert a IE user then you're going to have to do more then mention the name Opera to them. And your going to have to think make your priority not to mention too much or too little.
What not to do :
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DON'T GIVE THEM LIST... if you want to mention features don't mention them like their some plugin or extension (mail, irc, torrent client) talk about them as if they're just Opera and describe the function and more precisely the way it's presented and how it does it (as in what do they have to do to use it).
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Don't direct them to this site... or more precisely to the tutorial section Why?!... very simple... the site is a monster... It took me ages to find (more like stumble) in the tutorial section and most of the time I have absolutely no idea were I'm going... or what page I should go next...
If you want to mention anything in the tutorial page mention the things in the flash video section. (make sure to mention things like notes and mail first (make sure you point them strait to that section... like I said the site is a maze). Also tell them what to expect. Everyone likes surprises but there's a limit (and Opera has way too many surprises)
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Make it your priority to explain the big things... don't start with the tiny things (if possible don't talk to about them or use them as intermediates in the conversation)
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Act cool with Opera as much as you can... If you ever get the chance to play with Opera in front of your non-Opera friend then take it... don't start babbling about the browser just show-off... use as many shortcuts and function as you know... if possible find excuses to use every singe function that Opera has. (don't act too snobby however) Even if he doesn't say "Oh I want that" or whatever, you gave him/her a nice healthy push in the right direction.
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Try to find out (discreetly) what they wants out of a browser... basically if he ever mentions anything about another browser show him how Opera does it better... ok so there are things like RSS feeds that suck... but you should have a lot of stuff to choose.
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Don't force Opera on them... let them start the conversation... you just push them towards it (somehow)...
If they start it then they'll listen.
- Don't act too proud... they'll just start thinking how it's over-rated and stuff like that... (it's just common sense)
It would be nice if there was some little movie or something of someone using Opera to it's full potential. Then people could just point it to their friends as a super cool thing... but alas there isn't...
Moving on to the next question...
2. Why do average users, after trying Opera for a short period of time, decide not to switch to Opera?
This includes issues faced by other browsers that compete with IE, such as Firefox, and issues which are unique to Opera.
Quite simply I believe (now) that the major factor is the shortcuts.
It's not that the shortcuts in Opera are totally different then other browser it's that it's a new thing (for them) and you don't just install a new progy and start to use all it's shortcuts just like that.
IMO the development team haven't taken into account that there may be a lot of people that don't use that many shortcut keys... and lets put it this way... I didn't use that many shortcuts (just tings like page down/up and arrow keys, f5, f2 and f11 and that's about it) and life is hell most of the things are out of reach of course and it just takes a hell of a long time to get from one thing to another...
Now that I use shortcuts the layout is super cool
I don't think I'm just some exception... IMO there are lots of users out there that don't use shortcuts or don't use that many.
As a mouse browser Opera is a pain. The way everything is placed you move with the speed of a snail. I mean think about it people that don't use shortcuts (let's presume they only use the mouse) have to move the mouse to scroll the page then move the mouse to switch tabs or move the mouse to select some popular bookmark of some popular site they like and things like that. I know they only move in more or less strait lines from point A to point B, but the problem is they move all over the place. I mean Opera has tons of options so they just move all over the place and that leads to stress. So what will happen ? Most likely they'll stop using some of the options (more precisely the ones related to browsing). Now what happens. they start to feel like I did. The feeling is that of like : you live in the city work in some office at some firm that's on the other side of town and you're using a big 'ol truck to get there
. Well that's what I think happens...
Why doesn't Firefox have the problem ?! It simple Firefox just doesn't have half the options Opera has so there isn't anything anyone can contest about it. The interface is pretty strait forward and all they have to worry about are the Bookmarks. It's just so friendly for mouse users.
Also chances are they'll adopt Firefox shortcuts faster for a very simple reason : when someone starts using a program they first learn to use it manually without the aid of shortcuts (with the exception of standard ones of course, like ctrl + c, ctrl + v, page up and so on). After they get accustomed to the program they start to use shortcuts. But chances are... if they don't start to use shortcuts after a short while after they learn to use the program they'll never use shortcuts (lets say that things like shortcuts never even crossed my mind until now). Firefox has a big advantage, it has very few things, so there are very few shortcuts to learn and its not that scary to think of learning them.
Of course the idea that if it has less functions then its easier to learn shorcuts is flawed, but that's how most people think. I made a big list of shorcuts and its pretty scary but after I practiced a few it aynt scary anymore.
Just how big is the list... ?
It's this big...
My Keyboard Shortcuts notes Maximize all tabs Ctrl + Shift + F5 Save copy of page with all images and elements Ctrl + Alt + S Close Opera Ctrl + Q Hide Opera Ctrl + H Copy selected text to "Notes" panel Ctrl + Shift + C Go to your home page Ctrl + Space Enter a Web address F2 Paste and go in current or new tab Ctrl + B Paste and go in background tab Ctrl + Shift + B Enter nickname for fast bookmark access Shift + F2 Save page address as new bookmark Ctrl + D Save as new bookmark in active bookmark folderCtrl + Shift + D Reload (get latest version of) page F5 Reload all open pages Ctrl + F5 Read selected text using voice function V Cancel current voice prompt Esc Go to next page in history X Go to previous page in history Z Rewind Shift + Z Show entire forward history Alt + X Show entire backward history Alt + Z Home (home for the specific site) Ctrl + Shift + Space Load and display all images I Toggle loading of images Shift + I View page source Ctrl + F3 Validate source ( in the background ) Ctrl + Alt + Shift + V Increase zoom % by steps of 10 Numeric " + " Decrease zoom % by steps of 10 Numeric " - " Restore zoom to 100% Numeric " * " Copy selected link address Ctrl + Alt + C Save link target (such as document or image) Ctrl + Shift + S Cycle through headers in page S and W Cycle through elements in page D and E Browse in new tab Ctrl + T Browse in duplicate of active tab Ctrl + Alt + Shift + N Close active tab Ctrl + W Close all open tabs Ctrl + Alt + W Close all open tabs except active Ctrl + Shift + Alt + W Undo closing tab Ctrl + Alt + Z Cycle to next tab Ctrl + Tab Cycle to previous tab Ctrl + Shift + Tab Switch to next tab on tab bar 1 Switch to previous tab on tab bar 2 Toggle last active panel with panel selector F4 Activate panels for keyboard navigation F7 Open "Bookmarks" panel Ctrl + 2 Open "Mail" panel Ctrl + 3 Open "Notes" panel Ctrl + 6 Open "History" panel Ctrl + 8 Quickly edit most popular preferences F12 Toggle scroll bars Ctrl + F7 Toggle address bar Ctrl + F8 Set focus to Web page F9 Set focus to address field F8 Manage bookmarks Ctrl + Alt + B Hide Panel Ctrl + F5
Hmm... must be the font... it looks like a nice table in my notes panel... well those are the shortcuts that are important (to me). More precisely the one that make browsing in full-screen more a piece of cake... and all I do to learn them is use them once or twice and they stick.
3. Why do average users, after using Opera for a long period of time, decide to switch to another browser?
"A long period of time" is generally at least a month, or sufficient time to get familiar with the interface and basic features of Opera. This includes disadvantages of Opera, as well as advantages of other browsers.
For the reasons I mention above.
To say it in a few words : Opera isn't mouse friendly enough.
They're stubborn... but it eventually annoys them enough, and they switch, probably to Firefox. Since it's not related to windows it's got less stigma.
It's simple if firefox doesn't work or crashes they'll blame windows before they blame Firefox.
Let's face it windows has more stigma to it then Opera is ever going to get.
Since Opera is a "bigger" package. Or at least it looks like some ultra huge package when people first try it (trust me) if something goes wrong they'll blame it.
It's like : if Notepad crashes then it's windows fault if Micorsoft Word crashes then it Words fault.
4. Why do technically-competent users not try Opera in the first place?
This includes issues faced by other browsers that compete with IE, such as Firefox, and issues which are unique to Opera. This includes users who do not know about Opera, and users who have been introduced to Opera by a friend. However, do note that technically-competent users are more likely to use Firefox.
I don't think this is an issue. Unless they're friends purposely marked Opera as total crap then it's very unlikely they never tried it.
Well there's always the chance they never heard of it but they had to live under a rock for all they're life for that to be the case.
Well there's always the idea that they're too happy with Firefox and see no reason to switch.
5. Why do technically-competent users, after trying Opera for a short period of time, decide not to switch to Opera?
This includes issues faced by other browsers that compete with IE, such as Firefox, and issues which are unique to Opera. However, do note that technically-competent users are more likely to use Firefox.
If your a technically-competent user what's the first thing you do.
You go to the preferences and start messing with the shortcuts. I know even I did that. (not exactly after I installed Opera but I do remember playing with the settings)
After they play with the shortcuts the shortcuts become less efficient. As they are in the default setting they're almost idea IMO.
And the technically-competent users are self-conscious eL33ts they won't check to see if the current setting are good they know their genius is unrivalled in the universe. Now what are the chances of the end result ending up all super inefficient.
They play around a little with Opera (with they're settings) then give up.
That's scenario 1.
In scenario 2 they see it as overly complicated and just want to give up on it and return to the simple layout of Firefox. The thing is that there are a lot of people who love simplicity and since people that promote Opera give big lists of tons of stuff they see Opera as an... how should I put it... "a colorful bloated monster" with a strange name.
Also if you want to convince the technically-competent users it's a good idea to avoid all kinds of statistics and reasons like "speed" or "security" it's very often seen as stupid adds then anything else.
6. Why do technically-competent users, after using Opera for a long period of time, decide to switch to another browser?
"A long period of time" is generally at least a month, or sufficient time to get familiar with the interface and basic features of Opera. This includes disadvantages of Opera, as well as advantages of other browsers.
Trust me they can go for more then a month a still know little to anything. Sure they might get familiar with it, but that doesn't mean they'll know anything about it.
Opera really needs to work on the communication part. What's the point of having stuff if people have a hard time using it or more precisely learning how to use it properly.
I know there's the help thing but they think of themselves as eL33t that's the last thing they'll click.
People might stick with Opera for months just because of the trash, session thingy. That and they're idiots like me who prefer to have hundreds of bookmarks and find out they can't import them into Firefox
Well that's about it... just wanted to share my thoughts... hope my little experience helps the community in some way...
Saturday, 9. September 2006, 21:19:07
Originally posted by KimmoA:
You must have some experience...I have an extremely simple answer which is also 100% true: "They are idiots."
See
Originally posted by neeraj_deshmukh:
...Signature: Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience. - Dilbert
Thursday, 14. September 2006, 13:52:14
1. It is bloated.
2. It is difficult to use.
Opera has always been built to be a very light browser. The Opera installation package is smaller than the Firefox installation package, in terms of bytes.
However, I agree that some users find Opera's interface a little difficult to navigate, especially with different shortcut keys. Firefox is designed to be similar to IE in many ways.
Opera Software must think about which of Opera's unique features will be useful to average users. For example, session saving is very useful for most users, but few will find BitTorrent support useful.
In addition, I think Opera should not have a mail and news client integrated into the browser.
Thursday, 14. September 2006, 14:24:13
Maybe something like "people THINK that Opera is bloated" regardless of its small download file and small machine resources usage. How could people know the truth?!
(FYI, I'm the minimalist type, too.)
Thursday, 14. September 2006, 21:54:40
Opera 9 for my main browser and IE to view problem sites. A few years ago I tried Opera for a couple of days and
wasn't impressed and went back to IE. I'm glad I gave Opera another try!
Thursday, 14. September 2006, 22:00:52
Originally posted by tufnel81:
I downloaded Opera Mini for my mobile phone. I liked it so much that I downloaded Opera 9 for my desktop.I use
Opera 9 for my main browser and IE to view problem sites. A few years ago I tried Opera for a couple of days and
wasn't impressed and went back to IE. I'm glad I gave Opera another try!
Good to hear!
Friday, 15. September 2006, 02:26:40
In addition, I think Opera should not have a mail and news client integrated into the browser.
I strongly disagree. I found from the start that these features are very subtle and none invasive, if you don't want them you don't have to see them and if you start using them they are awesome.
Friday, 15. September 2006, 02:43:56
I agree that these things should not overwhelm new people, but I think Opera already has that very well covered.
Saturday, 16. September 2006, 14:52:39
Originally posted by Falesh:
I strongly disagree. I found from the start that these features are very subtle and none invasive, if you don't want them you don't have to see them and if you start using them they are awesome.
Are they useful to a significant percentage of Opera users?
If Opera was simply a browser, the already-light package would be much lighter.
Perhaps we could make them optional features.
Saturday, 16. September 2006, 15:30:38
http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=158430
Sunday, 17. September 2006, 05:20:52
Originally posted by Ace Jack Neo:
Are they useful to a significant percentage of Opera users?
If Opera was simply a browser, the already-light package would be much lighter.
Perhaps we could make them optional features.
If Opera was a plain browser with nothing to distinguish itself from any other why would people use it?
In my opinion M2 is an excellent and none invasive feature. With no downsides to including it why make it more complicated for people by forcing them have to install it separately?
Sunday, 17. September 2006, 06:53:59
Originally posted by Falesh:
If Opera was a plain browser with nothing to distinguish itself from any other why would people use it?
It has plenty of things to distinguish it from other browsers. It's the most secure and fastest browser, and boasts cool features like session saving, which other browsers are stealing from us.
Sunday, 17. September 2006, 07:33:34
I just don't understand why you think M2 should be dropped? It would need to be quite a big reason to justify removing such an innovative feature.
Showing topic replies 1 - 50 of 158.
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