Discussions & Debates

Discussions & Debates

Note: This post has been edited to protect persons described in the original mailing. These edits do not change the content of this post. - Webmaster


AFAIK, we've had 2 closed threads so far. One ended with:

Originally posted by H-kon
Please, you guys know my motto for the D&D. Attack the ideas, not the person behind them.

The problem with this forum is that a small number of members are discussing many issues. It's clear that they won't always agree, but I feel that some of the heat from previous threads is transferred to every new discussion, thus putting even more emphasis on the existing disagreements. Some posts from the past can be considered personal attacks, and we don't need that here, now do we? I'm not trying to look like an , but this is what i found somewhere on the internet, and it looks pretty useful:

Public Discussion Tips
* Make messages brief and to the point so they will be read.
* Use sarcasm and humor carefully to avoid offending anyone.
* Before posting to a group discussion, read through previous messages to get an understanding of the tone and nature of the discussion.
* When building on others' ideas, summarize those ideas first when possible, so the original messages do not have to be revisited and the connections are apparent. This can be accomplished using partial quotes or paraphrasing.
* Contact the discussion moderator if problems arise.

"Netiquette"
Be Courteous: This includes refraining from posting multiple, identical messages ("flooding"); posting large images or files that can slow download time; and avoiding typing in all capital letters (considered "shouting").

Stick to the Topic: It can be aggravating opening a message expecting one topic (based on the subject line) and finding another topic being addressed in the message. Be sure to start a new discussion thread with a unique subject line if you want to address a new topic.

Be Kind to Others: Multiple points of view are often explored in online discussions. While it is fine to disagree with another's viewpoint, online forums are not the place for personal attacks (sometimes called "flaming"). Respecting the rights of others to share viewpoints openly allows multiple facets of a topic to be explored.

Remember the Human: Sometimes called the "golden rule" of netiquette, this rule reminds us that, though we are not communicating face-to-face in online discussions, we are communicating person to person, not computer to computer.

Btw, H-kon's motto for this forum is: Attack the ideas, not the person behind them. Mine would be: Accept that there are more views than yours only, and recognize that yours isn't absolutely true.

edit: H-kon, i didn't pm this to you cause i thought others might want to read this too.

edit2: source

Great post. Thanks. I was about to type one up as well I think i will make this one a sticky

Feel free to delete/move this post if this is the wrong place for this sentiment, but I sincerely hope we never loose a member because of debates & discussions. Especially considering the members who currently frequent this particular area.

cg

p.s. I don't envy your task H-kon.

Bravo scipio
I did try to make a point sort of like this earlier in one of the threads but I'm afraid my wording may have not been clear.

Uhm, I don't really want to be difficult, but... This thread having been made sticky as a sort of "how to debate", how about editing out the personal references in the beginning of the original post? It detracts attention from the main point and is so much more text for someone to read thru before one gets to the point.

I totally agree on the point, mind:)

...how about editing out the personal references in the beginning of the original post?

[/b]

Good point. It serves no constructive purpose.

Well it does indicate the purpose of wht this thread had to be started in the first place and hence serves as a reminder.

Originally posted by Tiram
Uhm, I don't really want to be difficult, but... This thread having been made sticky as a sort of "how to debate", how about editing out the personal references in the beginning of the original post? It detracts attention from the main point and is so much more text for someone to read thru before one gets to the point.

I totally agree on the point, mind:)

Tiram, I didn't post the names intentionally (not to pick on someone in particular). I thought of doing what you suggested, but i got:

The administrator has specified that you can only edit messages for 1440 minutes after you have posted. This limit has expired, so you must contact the administrator to make alterations on your message.

Sorry 'bout that. Maybe H-kon can change that if he reads your post.

Originally posted by scipio
Tiram, I didn't post the names intentionally (not to pick on someone in particular).

I figured as much -- didn't mean to pick on you:) But then, when you posted it you didn't know it was gonna be made into a sticky note on netiquette, did'ya!

Originally posted by scipio
Sorry 'bout that. Maybe H-kon can change that if he reads your post.

That was my thought, too -- or maybe Fred could...? I figured it'd be too late for you to touch it.

personal references removed from post

One important point not mentioned is the choice of language. There is no excuse for using profanity and abuse.

Thanks! This helps...

i don't mind the flaming nearly as much as the length of the threads sometimes. when a thread becomes 4 pages long, i think we've heard from just about everyone a couple of times. once peeps become repetitive, i rarely return to read anymore of the thread.

i enjoy the d&d forum more than any other here. except after a new release. everyone has interesting ideas. and i respect them all.

tafugate: Yeah, this is a sticky & my reply isn't worth of beeing into such.... but that is what reply to&discussions are all about, or? Not just voicing your oppinion once, but thereafter discussing it with other Users
P.S.: But yes, we could always wish that we at least remain on topic within D&D... this isn't the lounge after all

Very True Shandra.

I certainly agree with this line...

"Attack the idea, not the soul behind it."

We won't lose a member if "that" person has a wide range of understanding things and different issues. Don't worry about it.

This is the 3rd Forum I have joined and find very stimulating. I am starting to understand how people are still people, that they have invested feelings in what they post, and how they react to replies. As anonymous as a forum can get, it is surprising to see a sea of emotion creating waves, eddies and currents. But I do agree with a time limit on edits, if not for the sake of historical accuracy. It would be a shame to loose the context of a flame or personal attack by virtue of an out of sequence edit. That is akin to re-writing history and putting spin on an issue that only masks the nature of the exchange. What is done or has been said should stand, once a number of replies have been posted. A post and reply should be made within the guidelines of etiquette. One may also find some amusement in the more vicious exchanges that adhere to a more witty approach so often found on courts of the Renaissance period.
Don't you just love it?
Ziggy

Oh how well I adored the ZigZag Corporation... but now? To 99.9% I agree with what was said... but then... I think for a sticky and an lasting testomony to the Past Situations it is neccessary to rule out the names.... a) After all those names in question could still be welcomend forum members (ok, not in all cases maybe) and b) it does make it more abstract and therefore focusing on the point in question for this sticky.... If you leave the names in and want any educational effect... the thing you get could well be the avoidance of discussions with those one named... the labeling of those names in regards to the sticky... or whatsoever...
But with the names out you have a situation set as an example and that could be applied upon further events

Far out- nearly every discussion is about American politics....time to start some new ones- soon as I finish wrapping presents, and sleeping, of course

Just a bit of useless and nonsense statistics.

I started a thread (in the Lounge) which definately requires a contribution to make it work - the Grand Opera race from Victoria to Tokyo. I noticed as no doubt many have that more people visit a site than contribute. The figures are (at this moment)
Grand Opera Race ..... 15 posts 94 views - i.e. 6 times as many people visited as contributed. Frustrating when you want to make progress in the race.

So I looked into the same ratio for D&D (just for the first page listed at the time of writing this). The result was (I see the formatting has gone as a result of the posting):

Topic Author posts views ratio
Discussions & Debates scipio 27 969 36
Global Warning Extinction string 17 84 5
Educational System …stupid? conundrum2most 15 195 13
Interesting read... conundrum2most 10 120 12
Jobless = Job Less monarda 21 134 6
Why are you still using MSIE? Mike Healan 11 222 20
Saddam Hussein US trained string 17 112 7
Chef sues hotel over cut arty 19 164 9
Today's Pearls Before Swine michmaj 80 792 10
Will Al Gore help …? Klinx 36 207 6
2004 is gonna be …good year Klinx 28 264 10
Telletubbies up to something! string 11 75 7
A Death Row inmate Klinx 61 533 9
U.S. Tips on Cutting OT Costs conundrum2most 12 82 7
Gore arrested for Marijuana Klinx 80 597 7
New Face rinard 49 387 8
Inquiry - Does God Exist? Pesala 652 4125 6
British Spy Misled Nation conundrum2most 26 180 7
Cheney Facing Prosecution conundrum2most 4 41 10


In as much as you can draw any conclusions, my race was doing relatively well. Also, surpisingly with such a large viewing number Pesala's post was also doing ok. But on the whole the ration was remarkably constant. This thread, the sticky, is a special case.

A question to haavard - does Opera have statics on posting which you can share and which would be interesting?

[getting a little off topic]I guess that most people who visit and don't post are the ones who have already contributed to the thread and waiting for an answer/a new post. Look at the "guess who's next" thread. Posts 15184, Views 64892. I don't think there are 50000 people who are interested in reading that thread without playing the game. you either find it stupid and leave or you keep coming back.[/now back to topic]

scipio - yes I thought of that but on the other hand those who post often do it more than twice, so maybe the two effects sort-of balance themselves. If I was not lazy, I'd analyse each thread in detail to only take account of individuals. But then I am lazy so I won't. This is a reason I asked Haavard the question I did - maybe Opera has some magic trace going on in the background. Its nice to ask questions to solve one's laziness! (don't read that last bit Haavard! ).

A man who know that he is lost is not really lost. One who thinks that he knows where he is going is truly lost.





Ordinarily, there is little point in posting a message that few people will even notice. However, my post is not pointless. If you read my signature you may get my point. Sometimes silence is the best response to a question. Other questions need to be answered by a counter-question. A few cannot be answered at all because they should not be asked.


The important questions are difficult to answer. People have pondered on the meaning of life since the beginning of time, and have come up with no end of philosophies and religions. To find the right path on one’s own is unlikely.

[nitpicking]btw, after you post a message, you're taken back to your post, that counts as a 'view' to, so you have to subtract at least the number of posts from the total views to be exact[/nitpicking]

T!&only - I know the answer (non-answer) to that - look in the thread " Official New MyOpera Problems Thread"

http://my.opera.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=421516#post421516

look at my post on the 9th of January and Haavard's reply, also to my post on the 15th January

Bascially the answer is "don't raise that here!"

Its interesting to follow the trail to vBulletin as you'll see

not that important anyway, doesn't bother my in the least I must say

I’m amused over the way that people generally have intrinsic styles of behavior, even within their writing. Equivalent to having a friend; usually I can guess how that person will react to a specific situation, and usually guess correct.
It didn’t take very long to figure out that Klinx = “George Bush” as it only took one post to figure out that nuclear/Asturias = illusions99. The very first thing that illusions99 did while entering the forums was to state that there was some sort of “cartel” that was out to get him; I sometimes wonder if this is the mindset of the actual person that types in those words of paranoia... I suppose we’ll never really know, just like the story of John Titor.
Although I really must say, the best transformation that I have seen yet, a member of the “Triad” posing as the agent of the “Matrix”

I don' believe you can discuss a debate without conflict, or else why bother? Quoting someone for a direct reponse or in addendum to the orginal quoted post, is not an attack and yet even moderators are drawn in to defensive arbitrary arguements, causing the string to remain off topic far longer than needed. There are rules people must obey, end of topic. maybe a posting at the end of an arbitrators posting that reminds people of the original topic would be helpful.

Originally posted by Pesala
One important point not mentioned is the choice of language. There is no excuse for using profanity and abuse.

AND the terms abuse and profanity would be set to whose standards, or whose measure of shit or wit do we compare our own style up against.im not sorry that where i come from a twat is called a twat,they are just words nothing to fear.chill:lol:

I prefer a nice ad hominem attack myself. Or, rather, I prefer it when someone attacks me rather than attempting to refute my irrefutable logic. Because while I don't know everything, I know more about the things other people don't know than they ever will.

Re: Discussions & Debates

Just another addition to "Netiquettes" suggested by scipio’s initial post:

Please do not quote / publish any email addresses of other people unless they would have agreed to publish them or at least you would surely know that they wouldn’t get any trouble with showing to the public.
Please respect personal data.
Danki.

Originally posted by Gspusi:

Please do not quote / publish any email addresses of other people unless they would have agreed to publish them or at least you would surely know that they wouldn’t get any trouble with showing to the public.
Please respect personal data.
Danki.

Ok

fully support.

attack point, not the soul behind it.

btw: i'm from China.

Originally posted by qwyoyo:

btw: i'm from China.

Ah. That would be Beijing, eh?

Welcome to the Forums!

hey people i am new here, was just checking out the forums. Sounds like a big happy family here to me.

As an addendum to the "NO MORE CAPS LOCK" pinup, which I'm not allowed to post into, I'd add (if i could):
Анд но цыриллиц, еитхер!

OK, I will ask. What did you just say, Jaybro?

'and no cyrillic either' in a very weird transliteration ( ц sounds like 'ts' not like 'c', х is ... the 'kh' in 'Mikhail' )

Originally posted by Macallan:

'and no cyrillic either' in a very weird transliteration ( ц sounds like 'ts' not like 'c', х is ... the 'kh' in 'Mikhail' )

Correct! But don't blame me, blame
http://newyork.mashke.org/Conv/
Without Google, I'm little more than ape with a bit of consciousness.

Ich bin Ook

I told someone from their post that I didn't care whether or not they liked a certain source I was referring
to. I kinda thought that many I had attacked the person and I didn't discuss. However, I did say that even
though you may not like someone's source to either skip it or look at the source and then make a comment. I
give everyone in here that respect. I would hope that this same respect would come my way also.

Originally posted by Kite Geek:

Here is what I like to do... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i-49KTiWtU&mode=related&search=

Pretty neat stuff.
I thought of posting what I like to do on Youtube, but thought better of it.

It's nice post. We all agree to disagree but flaming should be avoided as far as possible

Hey all,

Great idea to roast the idea and not the poor who wrote it!
Wouldn't it be better if we all sat around with our and enjoyed the fire?


lol

I think thats what debates and discussions do. Evoking and stimulating wht you strongly feel.and yah attacking ideas is the way to go.

OMG! I can't believe I'm posting in this thread...

Of course, the ideas are what matter! And yet, the people who present them here can't help but seem real, real enough to matter too. (I'll let you in on a secret: The ideas are less important than the people.) Debates & Discussions is, after all, a small room off of the Lounge...

I noticed that two recent threads have disappeared. One was started by someone who was banned subsequently and the other by someone who was heading that way, fast. Both threads had their vitriolic content but also some issues that were worth discussing.

Is it the case that when people are banned and their posts deleted, then any threads that they started are automatically deleted as well?

Just curious. Maybe a mod could break the sacred vow of silence and comment?

Originally posted by string:

Is it the case that when people are banned and their posts deleted, then any threads that they started are automatically deleted as well?

These threads are not automatically deleted. They are manually deleted.

You can see many cases of threads started by a troll or otherwise banned poster that are live and well to date.

Generally worthwhile topics come up regularly, and usually better framed.

"a day in april never comes so sweat"

I am not sure what the discussion is but I agree with the #1 message. Let's be adults and treat one another with respect. And April is great!