Kestel: Why was removed ViewBar?

Kestel: Why was removed ViewBar?

Why was removed ViewBar? I think, that many advanced users use it as Developer ToolBar.
It should be default off, but why remove it completly?

Originally posted by Brutha:

They probably saw with their new data gathering that the majority of the users doesn't use the viewbar, and that it only clutters their space.

And hiding it by default just like the Main bar was not an option?

And if screen space really was a concern, then why show the Status bar by default again? I see no difference in this regard.

Originally posted by Brutha:

The majority of the users won't customize their browsers, just we nerds do that

er.. pretty much all FF users say they like to customise, with extensions, etc... so get it sorted, devs! we cannot have *another* reason for them to *not* pick opera...

Tomcat76: there was much the same effect, when they removed the startbar... 'too difficult' , 'lots of problems' .... somebody please speak up, ok???

The point of Viewbar which is the most peculiar is to belong to the page. The tool bar which has the characteristic which is the same as this is only an address bar.

myopera_viewbar.jpg

If all tool bars have this characteristic, I don't stick to the view bar.

Originally posted by nullpage:

The point of Viewbar which is the most peculiar is to belong to the page. The tool bar which has the characteristic which is the same as this is only an address bar.

myopera_viewbar.jpg

That's an important thing you've pointed out!

Originally posted by nullpage:

If all tool bars have this characteristic, I don't stick to the view bar.

Well, the navigation bar has the same characteristics as the view bar. It also sticks to the tab/page-window.

So, IMHO the most valid substitute for the view bar is the navigation bar, but it's not optimal... some people use the navigation bar for its original purpose.

Originally posted by Rijk:

Is it really so hard to get the toggle button for the navigation bar from http://operawiki.info/CustomButtons#toolbar ?

This is not about toggeling - this is about space - i have on my View Bar a BBCode panel (like 369 shows), wich i can not leave without, and now where i put all these buttons? all other toolbars are full with other stuff...

Originally posted by grogge:

So, IMHO the most valid substitute for the view bar is the navigation bar, but it's not optimal... some people use the navigation bar for its original purpose.

Use "multiple lines wrapping" should do the trick - you can preserve both the contents of Navigation bar & View Bar, but with a slightly "Thicker Bar".

+1 for restoring it

As an aside:
using the navigation bar for other things is not an option for me, because then I loose it's feature of 'Show only when needed' which is controlled by the page visited...

A really bad move again...
I am really disappointed by this "alpha" in this respect in spite of some of its good advances; or shouldn't I?

I want View Bar.

is very important for me!!!

I found the ViewBar very useful for storing controls for things like Zoom level, Fit to Width, Author Mode and Show Images. Options that are page specific and unsuitable for a main toolbar, but not used often enough to justify a place in my Address Bar. Like some other people I'm currently using the Navigation Bar as a substitute and it seems to work well enough.

However, I find it a bit worrying that Opera developers decided to remove this completely, rather than simply removing it from the default UI and making it an option, like the Main Bar. To me the best thing about Opera is that I can customise it exactly how I want, that's why it suits my needs better than the other browsers on the market. I really don't want to see Opera gradually dumbed down and crippled out of a desire to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Viewbar was good. Bring it back.
New users mentioned by someone will learn in time what is it for and to turn it of and on.

Originally posted by HaJotKE:

As an aside:
using the navigation bar for other things is not an option for me, because then I loose it's feature of 'Show only when needed' which is controlled by the page visited...

A really bad move again...
I am really disappointed by this "alpha" in this respect in spite of some of its good advances; or shouldn't I?

I have never been able to get the navigation bar to work as it is, or I don't know how to use it. It is probably the latter

Originally posted by HaJotKE:

As an aside:
using the navigation bar for other things is not an option for me, because then I loose it's feature of 'Show only when needed' which is controlled by the page visited...

A really bad move again...
I am really disappointed by this "alpha" in this respect in spite of some of its good advances; or shouldn't I?

Good to hear there are at least two people using the Navigation bar for its original purpose. That's useful info.

For me, and maybe many others, it has been dead. I used to move a few of the items that occasionally are used to the status bar in my own setup, but I've dropped even that nowadays. On the sites I visit it offers no additional value. If you keep it as 'show when needed', on for example http://www.opera.com it will pop up with links for 'help' (links to the support site) and 'next' (link to the download page). I don't need that, space waster for me. Only 'next' is useful now and then (IMHO), and that info is already used by the Fast Forward button.

Originally posted by Rijk:

Good to hear there are at least two people using the Navigation bar for its original purpose. That's useful info.

I use the Navigation bar in "Show only when needed" mode, too. Especially the "Search" links tend to be useful. This is my workaround for the missing View bar (which I placed on the bottom):
Opera 9.5 navbar.png

Well, I used the View bar for the Web Developer toolbar exactly so that I would not destroy the Navigation bar, which can serve a useful purpose especially for web developers. I don't have much desire to update the web developer toolbar for 9.5 at all.

Removing it by default is one ok, but breaking it completely is pretty obnoxious. That kind of decision just aggravates your existing users and you gain *nothing* but resentment by doing so. What advantage is there of breaking the View bar, rather than hiding it — as far as I can see: none. You could even not add a toggle in the menu or customize... dialog - just leave us an internal command to use a button. Until you rearchitect toolbars to be more flexible, at least don't cripple the ones you already gave. Jumping UIs are a bad exerience...

As you may have guessed: +1 for its return... ;-)

Originally posted by non-troppo:

Well, I used the View bar for the Web Developer toolbar

Exactly! +1

To get the view bar effect for me, I used the navigation bar and did this :
In standard_toolbar (1).ini, under [Document Toolbar.content] I changed
this :
Button4, -1466343430="Set alignment, "document view toolbar", 6, , "View" | Set alignment, "document view toolbar", , , "View""

to this:
Button4, -1466343430="Set alignment, "Site Navigation Toolbar", 6, , "View" | Set alignment, "Site Navigation Toolbar", , , "View""


I set up my site navigation bar, like this :

[Site Navigation Toolbar.content]
Search0, 11
Button1, "Find Next"="Find next, , , "Find Next""
Spacer2, 1
Button3, -1291441751="Select author mode > Select user mode, , , -2101137707 + Show popup menu, "Style Menu""
Button4, -1320335960="Enable display images > Disable display images, , , -383776252 > Display cached images only, , , 333270751 + Show popup $
Button5, -512239998=Enable mediumscreen mode | Disable mediumscreen mode
Zoom6


It seems to work fine for me, and even still uses the little glasses icon...

voted "no, I don't need it" but I can fully understand why people argue to keep the possibility of adding it through the customize ... menu.

+1 for keeping it as an opt-in toolbar.

Originally posted by WildEnte:

voted "no, I don't need it" but I can fully understand why people argue to keep the possibility of adding it through the customize ... menu.

+1 for keeping it as an opt-in toolbar.

Thank you for your support.

Sorry, but I just couldn't resist.

Originally posted by Rijk:

Good to hear there are at least two people using the Navigation bar for its original purpose.

Let me chime in as #3

@non-troppo: i could not have said it better.

Adding options - rarely an issue
Removing options - rarely a good thing

Originally posted by porneL:

@369: uuu, that's an awesome bar you've got there
Such textarea-helper could be a good reason to revive viewbar-like toolbar.

© Lexi

Originally posted by fearphage:

Removing options - rarely a good thing

Exactly!

Same problem with Full context shell in Transfers window (under Windows).

Originally posted by non-troppo:

Jumping UIs are a bad exerience...

That's exactly what I tried to explain since years, but alas, in vain - they always come up with these same ideas again. I'd call this a 'consultation resistant' attitude.

Originally posted by Darken:

Same problem with Full context shell in Transfers window (under Windows)

Yeah...

+1 for view bar

Originally posted by Darken:

Same problem with Full context shell in Transfers window (under Windows).

and also +1 for reintroducing those menu entries

Originally posted by Darken:

Same problem with Full context shell in Transfers window (under Windows).

+1

+1

There is <strong>Status Bar</strong> for <strong>Browser Window</strong>. I want something like this for <strong>Page Window</strong> too. <strong>View Bar</strong> was a reasonable option. For now I'm using <strong>Navigation Bar</strong>, but I'm not happy. This bar would preform its purpose quite good, if a web-page could customise it more. Few fixed strings aren't enough.

+1
Please restore the view bar I miss it

Devs! - how about this then?? you dont need to 'bring back' the viewbar, but how about making the properties of **all toolbars** selectable???
eg..
- buttons on bar will 'mimic' the contents of a 'special folder' in the bookmark panel..
- check box for 'enable copy/paste' & modifier key (eg shift)
- 'attach to page' / 'attach to window' toggle..
- toggle on/off by button (choose button dialog)
- fix to addressfield(toggle for fit to page width/addressfield width) (toggle for 'activate on mouseclick in address' / click on button )
(note the 'addressbar' is [Document Toolbar.content] in the toolbar.ini file, the 'addressfield' contains the URL typed...)

this would mean *even less* clutter, default setting would be just 2 bars(called bar1, bar2), containing the contents of the 'addressbar' and 'tab bar', (that's the 923 default!)
and of course a 'create new bar' & 'rename bar' button...

more, anyone??

i too miss view bar and agree navigation bar just needed more work. like custom programmable behaviour for every page

but seems to me devs are steering away from customizations and power-users as much as possible these days and want to push simple and easy to use opera

anyway, as we have to adapt, navigation bar will have to do, just grab the toggle button.

I want it back also. Having it disabled by default is fine.

Originally posted by drgrozozo:

devs are steering away from customizations and power-users as much as possible these days and want to push simple and easy to use opera

I couldn't agree more.

Like Startbar, the ViewBar (although I don't use it, but many use) can be hidden as default. It doesn't complicate the handling of Opera.

Originally posted by drgrozozo:

but seems to me devs are steering away from customizations and power-users as much as possible these days and want to push simple and easy to use opera

Fine, and we've gone along with some of the illiteracy in the name of progress. But adding a very visible UI element, which is clearly used by a significant portion of your users, then not only remove it by default, but force it to be unused by all has nothing to to with ease-of-use.

Instead of carefully thinking the UI out and doing a cohesive change (coming in Opera 10?), we get this petty now-you-see-me, now-you-don't — if anyone can give us a reason why force-removing the view bar is useful we'd love to hear it...

I also used the view bar, and now I lack it very much, especially the "find in page" field.
There should be at least an option to turn it on.

@non-troppo:

Originally posted by Rijk:

there was no technical trouble, it is just a toolbar. The only trouble was too much redundancy and clutter and non-standardness in the UI.

from here

Removing the view bar seemingly solved a problem that didn't exist. Didn't they learn from the start bar fiasco? That would be like them clobbering the mail client out of nowhere. Some people are using this stuff. They should think more carefully before adding features instead of letting them linger and retracting them.

My concern is that advanced/power users are continually being overlooked. If a staff member would step forward and say this is on purpose and opera is not intended for power users, then I would move on to another browser. I would appreciate if someone were upfront about this instead of me expecting them to care one day.

Originally posted by rijk:

there was no technical trouble, it is just a toolbar. The only trouble was too much redundancy and clutter and non-standardness in the UI.

If hidden by default, that is a non-issue. The view bar will be invisible for a new user (it needn't be in customize dialog/ menu), but will allow those who use it to continue to do so. The solution is so self-evident that force-removing it seems almost wilfully disruptive.

Well, there is lots of time untill 9.5 Final. Hopefully, untill that time someone "up there" will get his/her senses back up and running and realize this unneeded mishandling.

It's incredible how past mistakes creep up...

I use the viewbar ("author mode" to see the links I already click on, "Show images" to read the text only, and "Fit to width" because it is sometimes useful but very very very buggy, for example with textareas).
And I have move the "find in page" field and button in the status bar, but the "Find next (in page)" is unavailable in Customization (in 9.23 also).

About the Navigation bar, I discover here that this bar exists , I was thinking that the checkbox "navigation bar" was refering to the buttons before the address field ; and it is almost completely hidden by the start bar when in "customize..." view, so I have never take care of this bar, it also looks like a IE defaults "useful" links (completely useless links).

Would you mind NOT to remove completely viewbar, pleaaaaaase ?

Originally posted by fearphage:

Originally posted by drgrozozo:

devs are steering away from customizations and power-users as much as possible these days and want to push simple and easy to use opera

I couldn't agree more.

Exactly, I don't want another browser like Firefox...

Originally posted by non-troppo:

If hidden by default, that is a non-issue. The view bar will be invisible for a new user (it needn't be in customize dialog/ menu), but will allow those who use it to continue to do so. The solution is so self-evident that force-removing it seems almost wilfully disruptive.

yeah, it's not just a view bar, there is a whole trend of changing things instead adding customization options. guess this comes as the result of constant avoidance of wrestling with problem called horrible customization ui. tools, advanced, quck preferences, preferences, appearance, tabs, tabs sub-pages, sub-page buttons, opera:config and half a dosen ini files... why would anyone spend a second on developing stuff like torrent engine before sorting this mess out?

I think we all owe Håvard a ;-)

http://my.opera.com/olli/blog/show.dml/1316988

Haavard

sometimes i just love opera crew

Good news!!

Next: Find a solution (alternative)/tweak for > Full context shell in Transfers window (under Windows)

fantasdelicious

Yeah, please give me back my viewbar I put all my "page hacker" tools in it, including a variety of element kill buttons, show images toggle, user CSS toggle, etc.

While on the subject, I'd also like to give a +1 for the suggested "make all toolbars customizable" thought. As in allow users to make new toolbars instead of limiting to the pre-defined ones. This might be a lot of work, but it should make everyone happy in the long run.

The view bar is indespensible, but thanks to Haavard, yay we have it back

Silly question, but can custom buttons etc, not go in to "Personal Bar" and then someone make a button to toggle it?


Matt

Originally posted by non-troppo:

I think we all owe Håvard a ;-)

http://my.opera.com/olli/blog/show.dml/1316988

Nice

So, when will we get it back?

Originally posted by MDTyKe:

Silly question, but can custom buttons etc, not go in to "Personal Bar" and then someone make a button to toggle it?


Matt

Nope, the personal bar can, for whatever reason, only hold bookamarks and folder thereof.