After Lockerbie: Should al-Megrahi be let free?

After Lockerbie: Should al-Megrahi be let free?

Revenge and retribution has a lot to do with these things. I both understand and am horrified about such things.

The following is a bit off-topic in that it is not a death sentence situation, at least not in the normal sense, but it does illustrate the two sides of this debate, a desire for retribution and a desire for compassion:

US stands against bomber release. It's maybe worth a thread by itself.

My view, by the way, is that there is more to be gained in letting the man go than not.

<i>Split from the <a href="http://my.opera.com/community/forums/findpost.pl?id=3079044">death penalty</a> thread.</i>

Originally posted by string:

It's maybe worth a thread by itself.

I think so, so I split it out. Also mentioned in the <a href="http://my.opera.com/community/forums/findpost.pl?id=3078219">multiple conspiracy</a>.

Originally posted by Acorn15:

I wonder how many here still believe that al-Megrahi bombed the aircraft over Lockerbie...

Even without the retired senior police officer's statement claiming evidence tampering, the below report would normally be enough to re-open a case in Scotland. There would appear to have been a fit-up.

The full report by Mebo (the manufacturers of the timers)

The plot thickens a bit, there being a number of interwoven threads.

see here

o The US Government applies "pressure" against release
... but of course the Scottish Judiciary will ignore that, as it should.

o Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi has applied to abandon his appeal against his conviction.
.... the appeal could have had the consequence that more facts would be brought to light, embarrassing, perhaps, to someone but who? Open season for conspiracies there!

The reason for the release was humanitarian - the guy is dying.

I remain of the opinion that is best that he is released and think it unwise for the US to object. Since the proposal has come up I think it best to carry it through and offer a very visible difference in attitude toward Human life to the outrage with befell the Pan Am passengers. That is an important message, and more important than getting the last dredge of revenge on one of the perpetrators.

There is some increasing feeling here that the man has been stitched up. The media also reported an interesting split in relatives reactions. A report said that a number of interviewees from the families killed from here were not that sure the "culprit" is the right man and in fact would have him sent to Libya. On the other hand those from the USA were totally against this. Hilary Clinton has spoken on the phone to the Justice Minister here (Scots Law is different from English Law). This has been a surprise reaction seeing two different views from the bereaved.

Clinton should stay out of it.

It looks as though this isn't ever going to have a satisfying legal resolution, but from my perspective the idea that anybody who has murdered an innocent person should be set free simply because he's near death doesn't hold much water. Philosophically and practically, we're all near death. What possible difference could that make?

For the record, I'm against the death penalty for both innocent and guilty people.

I agree that if you do the crime, you do the time.

In this case I believe that a deal is being worked out. "We'll let you go on health grounds and you drop the appeal which might cause us problems". The UK has been deliberately dragging their heels in the hope that this man pops his clogs. That is shameful.

I would not be surprised if I now get called a UK basher!

Originally posted by Acorn15:

I agree that if you do the crime, you do the time.

In this case I believe that a deal is being worked out. "We'll let you go on health grounds and you drop the appeal which might cause us problems". The UK has been deliberately dragging their heels in the hope that this man pops his clogs. That is shameful.

I would not be surprised if I now get called a UK basher!

I would not be surprised (about the deal I mean). About the shameful remark - I dunno about that, or care about that; it depends on what was the situation, assuming there was one.

Pragmatism rules OK, or rules UK if you prefer.

I wonder how the quality of palliative care provided in a Scottish prison compares with that on offer in Libya.

Having been in a legal public position I had a tour of a prison and they wandered about as if it was one of the famous centres of the Holiday Camp firm, Butlin's. The food was no mean stuff and the gym had rowing machines, pumpimg iron thingies, etc. The sex offenders had tea and coffee making in cells and so on. I suspect that our prisons are a bit higher up the scale than in North Africa.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

The food was no mean stuff and the gym had rowing machines, pumpimg iron thingies, etc. The sex offenders had tea and coffee making in cells and so on.

And you chose not to stay?

Nah, I helped put them there. And anyway we don't want to take our prison population in the direction of ex-Colonial nightmares with Aryan clubs and Muslim clubs and so on.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Having been in a legal public position I had a tour of a prison
snip

We believe you

I would have them chained to a wall on bread and water and that is something else you can choose to believe.

Stoning's too good for them!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

And anyway we don't want to take our prison population in the direction of ex-Colonial nightmares with Aryan clubs and Muslim clubs and so on.

Y'all are wise beyond your years. Good to guard against gangs in prisons.

Racist murderer 'part of prison gang'
A racist prisoner who killed his Asian cellmate was part of a gang that murdered fellow inmates, a public inquiry heard today.

The inquiry into the murder of Zahid Mubarek by Robert Stewart at Feltham young offenders' institution was told that two of the killer's friends had also murdered fellow prisoners.

A statement from the Mubarek family, read by inquiry team member Patrick O'Connor QC, said: "This was no accident. The evidence will disclose that Robert Stewart was one of a group of murderous associates in other prisons.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/nov/19/youthjustice.law
....
Watchdog says prison gangs pay to recruit new members
LONDON (Reuters) - Prison gangs are recruiting new members with offers of cash, fuelling a culture of drugs and violence at a jail in northern England, a watchdog said in a report on Wednesday.

Inspectors said urgent action was needed to combat a growing gang problem at Risley, a sprawling jail with nearly 1,100 inmates in Warrington, west of Manchester.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE4971XL20081008

Yeah, but at least they're being murdered in luxury. That must be some comfort to them.

Originally posted by johnnysaucepn:

Yeah, but at least they're being murdered in luxury. That must be some comfort to them.

I choked on a fish bone in a very expensive restaurant and almost died. I look back on it with fondness.

I see that another challenger has re-entered the scenr and good luck to him:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/scotland/6034698/Lockerbie-bombing-victims-father-to-sue.html

Originally posted by Acorn15:

I see that another challenger has re-entered the scenr and good luck to him:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/scotland/6034698/Lockerbie-bombing-victims-father-to-sue.html

Maybe, if he is correct, and also if he can succeed.

As I see it, however, there is a fair chance that he is a victim of conspiracy theorists who seize upon every real or imagined unexplained situation to support their pet theory.

Not that I'm immune to conspiracy theory because I can not imagine al-Megrahi being alone in this plot: Others, in my opinion, must have been involved. However whether they could have been convicted in a court of law is another matter because to do that solid indisputable evidence is necessary and that might not have been forthcoming or even available.

But Mr McBride, in his grief and wish for retribution, may simply be attempting an un-win-able battle which is why I wrote "and also if he can succeed" in my first sentence above.

He may simply be letting himself in for yet more grief.

But Jaybro our prisons are not as far down the hellholes your State Penitentaries are and such odd reports here are nothing like the way American jails are almost run by the inmates through groups I mentioned. Indeed some time ago a BBC journalist was allowed access to an American jail and it made ours look like learners. You also jail more per head tha mopst countries in thew world so no distractions please. US jails have these brotherhoods all over the damn place and frightening beyond belief. Only South American gaols could be worse?

There are certainly different viewpoints about Megrahi, but the situation is made more politically complicated by Clinton in urging no Megrahi release. In essence the situation is likely to remain as it is, the responsibility for this decision lyiong with the Scottish Judicial system and not in a sort of politicians playground.

The political complication is not simple, however, in that one country trying to interfere in the judicial system of another, even between the British and the US where a certain quid pro quo might have been expected sometimes. Sometimes perhaps, but the US has been singularly unresponsive to UK demands for compassionate action in certain cases, noticeably the latest case of the hacker Gary McKinnon. Refusing compassionate action is hardly a good background for cooperation with a request to deny compassion.

My view is that having started on this track the best thing would be to let the guy go. In any event, Clinton's intervention should be ignored. She seems to be getting into the habit of meddling anyway (Did Hilary Clinton Lie Against Nigeria's Elite?) and needs a sharp reminder of America's supposedly new fluffy Obama approach.

That's one for you to sort out internally Barack.

Originally posted by string:

That's one for you to sort out internally Barack.

If you handle too many puppets at one time the strings are bound to tangle. On the other hand, the writer of the Nigerian piece seemed to agree with Hillary. Strange.

Wouldn't this all be much simpler if Megrahi were clearly innocent or guilty? If guilty, I be happy to see him bereft of any compassion. If innocent, of course he should be released.

BTW, if McKinnon did what he was charged with, the sites he hacked owe him an award of some sort of cash reward. The emperor needs to know when he's not wearing clothes.

Originally posted by Jaybro:

Wouldn't this all be much simpler if Megrahi were clearly innocent or guilty? If guilty, I be happy to see him bereft of any compassion. If innocent, of course he should be released.

I am more cynical than you realise, Jaybro.

I'm content that he is guilty (even though I don't think he was the only one concerned) and would have been quite content if he had been dropped from a very large height in the first place. But since the proposition has come up in the way it has the genie is out of the bottle and in that case I think it more pragmatic that he is let loose "on compassionate grounds". In my view there is simply more to gain by claiming the moral high ground than having the present sordid discussion about whether he is innocent or not or whether we should show compassion - all counter-productive in my opinion.

Megrahi is merely an unimportant pawn in this business now.

Originally posted by string:

Megrahi is merely an unimportant pawn in this business now.

Let's say that you're correct...that he is guilty and that he has a fatal disease. Make him comfortable because that is compassionate. More than that is too much. How compassionate would it be for those who lost loved ones?

What if successful terrorists come to court with fatal diseases? Would it be wrong to imprison them?

Originally posted by Jaybro:

Originally posted by string:

Megrahi is merely an unimportant pawn in this business now.

Let's say that you're correct...that he is guilty and that he has a fatal disease. Make him comfortable because that is compassionate. More than that is too much. How compassionate would it be for those who lost loved ones?

What if successful terrorists come to court with fatal diseases? Would it be wrong to imprison them?

The argument about him not being compassionate and therefore not deserving of compassion is a powerful one (all be it unchristian!).

As I said, I would have sent him up in a high altitude balloon with a time-bomb in it.

But, to repeat my point, the situation now is that release has been raised. Since this has happened (which is a pity) it makes more sense to mje to go ahead and do it if that is the law in Scotland, rather than have this growing circus.

Certainly Clinton's intervention does not help since people do not like being pressured.

I believe that any release is down more to expediency than compassion. Neither the UK nor US governments want the case re-opened, even though there is enough information that was not available to (or witheld from) the court at the time.

Originally posted by Jaybro:

BTW, if McKinnon did what he was charged with, the sites he hacked owe him an award of some sort of cash reward. The emperor needs to know when he's not wearing clothes.

I agree!

No, he should not be released

Originally posted by operainchicago:

No, he should not be released

Why?

If he is guilty he should not be released. Basically you are giving a free pass to sick people to do evil things, if someone has a terminal disease an just for fun start killing people for the sport of it (or whatever reason) he or she should be safely locked in prison and society should make sure that spends miserably there his or hers last days.

I know that I'm a heartless bastard, but I do believe that when some one commit heinous crimes, he or she loses its human condition and most of the so called human rights no longer apply to them. And since society must not low to their own level (ie, torturing them for instance) at least they should die an exemplary death to show others not to follow the same path.

Nevertheless I found quite ironic that a Libyan citizen bombs a civilian plane killing everyone on board and is a vile terrorist while American citizens do the same crime and get a presidential pardon and live like heroes after publically confessing the crime. Too much for the war on terror I guess.

Well we will know today:
Lockerbie bomber to be told fate

There have been heartfelt arguments that he should be kept in prison but I remain convinced that he should be released, not because he deserves it, but because the subject of his release has been made public in the way it has. As I mentioned before he is a pawn in a bigger game than his miserable hide.

al-Megrahi belongs to a vile ant-anything-western club which includes terrorists and a handful of wacky governments. These people have taken and will take hostages for little reason, mountaineering on the wrong side of a mountain, being a journalist in a country where there is a war are to examples. In other words hostages that are only enemies in the twisted version of logic which only those people can generate. Nevertheless, if al-Megrahi is not released I fear for the success of future pleas for mercy/compassion related to those hostages. How can Western Governments plea for compassion from people who believe al-Megrahi is a hero and not the cold blooded killer that we know him to be?

Originally posted by string:

Nevertheless, if al-Megrahi is not released I fear for the success of future pleas for mercy/compassion related to those hostages.

Ain't you twisting the words a little bit? Mountaineering on the wrong side of a mountain can be a crime if you are from an hostile country. You can be gathering intelligence, planning sabotages, promoting dissension, etc. and at least is common sense to investigating your activities. Ditto with journalists from a hostile country illegally entering. In any case they are not hostages, they are prisoners of recognized governments, they have rights those governments are committed to grant, their situation is well known and they have little value as hostages.

Things would be really different if they were hostages of an extremist group, and bargaining in this situation is a incentive for them to get more hostages so thats really a bad idea.

Originally posted by Immanis:

Ain't you twisting the words a little bit? Mountaineering on the wrong side of a mountain can be a crime if you are from an hostile country. You can be gathering intelligence, planning sabotages, promoting dissension, etc. and at least is common sense to investigating your activities.

Not really unless there is an excess of paranoia - a bit of common sense would make it pretty obvious that plotting and spying on a mountain is a bit unlikely, and promoting dissension would lack an audience. Anyway we shall see how that plays out, whether Ahmadinejad plays his usual asinine games or not. If so then no doubt we will see another thread about it.



In the meantime, The Lockerbie bomber returns to Libya.

.... and good riddance to him

Originally posted by string:

Not really unless there is an excess of paranoia - a bit of common sense would make it pretty obvious that plotting and spying on a mountain is a bit unlikely, and promoting dissension would lack an audience. Anyway we shall see how that plays out, whether Ahmadinejad plays his usual asinine games or not. If so then no doubt we will see another thread about it.

In all honestly I don't know how in earth releasing a convict Libyan terrorist can change the mindset of an Iranian leader. In any case, unless found guilty of something else they have little value as hostages prisoners, so they will be eventually released. And by eventually I mean soon, freeing or not a Libyan criminal will not change much here.

With Megrahi's release, there is little likeliehood of the evidence witheld or ignored ever reaching court. The USA and UK governments should be sighing with relief.

His release is not on the condition of his innocence or guilt, rather the release is an action by the British Government of releasing a Libyian agent in hopes of continuing improvement in Lybian and British relations. There is oil and new contracts are being considered in Lybia and British Petroleum wants at it.

Yeah, lets forget years of sanctions and unpleasant stuff against Libya and move forward. Where are oil, there will be blood, nothing personal, just business.

From String.
"al-Megrahi belongs to a vile ant-anything-western club which includes terrorists and a handful of wacky governments. These people have taken and will take hostages for little reason, mountaineering on the wrong side of a mountain, being a journalist in a country where there is a war are to examples. In other words hostages that are only enemies in the twisted version of logic which only those people can generate. Nevertheless, if al-Megrahi is not released I fear for the success of future pleas for mercy/compassion related to those hostages. How can Western Governments plea for compassion from people who believe al-Megrahi is a hero and not the cold blooded killer that we know him to be?"

Well said, sir.
Why do we pussy-foot around these evil creatures?
The answer is obvious, of course. Our oil has run out and we need theirs. A mere century ago the West could afford to treat these savages with the disdain they merited. If they could be said to have a culture, it was that of desert-dwelling nomads, and their mores and religion reflected this. Slabs of what the West regards as necessary ingredients of humanity are missing. But for the time being they must be humoured. For the time being they must be tolerated and afforded the indulgence we allow to children.
But their oil will run out too, and the West will have learned to do without it. Those annoying savages will have pissed their wealth up against a wall and have little to show for it, except for some decaying monuments to luxury and excess. "Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair".
And then the there will be chaos.
There will be millions of wild-eyed, resentful, baffled anti-western recruits for martyrdom, aware that it is all drifting away and that there has been no preparation made for a post-oil future. They will blame the West and not their leaders. Suicide bombings will become a way of life. The East-West divide will become a chasm.
And "compassion" will have different, and selective, meaning.

Originally posted by OnetimePoster:

A mere century ago the West could afford to treat these savages with the disdain they merited. If they could be said to have a culture, it was that of desert-dwelling nomads, and their mores and religion reflected this.

What a jewel! This is the reason why I can't get away from the troll's lair Dungeons and Dragons Debates and Discussions.

Those uncivilized savages preserved the little knowledge we have from the ancient times thanks to the actions of the greater savages you are so proud to represent. And the only reason you have that superiority feeling right now is because at some time in the not that distant past your ancestors were able to cast aside your own religious dogma and embrace science, while at the same time those savages falls prey to fundamentalism. Thats and the fact that they didn't prey most of the world resources to 'civilize' themselves as the west did.

Originally posted by OnetimePoster:

Why do we pussy-foot around these evil creatures?

You mean the pawn who got convicted on little more than the fact that Libya was the Bad Guy Of The Day?

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by OnetimePoster:

Why do we pussy-foot around these evil creatures?

You mean the pawn who got convicted on little more than the fact that Libya was the Bad Guy Of The Day?

I say, Mac old chap.
"Creatures" is plural and "pawn" is singular.

Originally posted by OnetimePoster:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by OnetimePoster:

Why do we pussy-foot around these evil creatures?

You mean the pawn who got convicted on little more than the fact that Libya was the Bad Guy Of The Day?

I say, Mac old chap.
"Creatures" is plural and "pawn" is singular.

No kidding, look at the subject please

Originally posted by Immanis:

Originally posted by OnetimePoster:

A mere century ago the West could afford to treat these savages with the disdain they merited. If they could be said to have a culture, it was that of desert-dwelling nomads, and their mores and religion reflected this.

What a jewel! This is the reason why I can't get away from the troll's lair Dungeons and Dragons Debates and Discussions.

Those uncivilized savages preserved the little knowledge we have from the ancient times thanks to the actions of the greater savages you are so proud to represent. And the only reason you have that superiority feeling right now is because at some time in the not that distant past your ancestors were able to cast aside your own religious dogma and embrace science, while at the same time those savages falls prey to fundamentalism. Thats and the fact that they didn't prey most of the world resources to 'civilize' themselves as the west did.

I think I follow what you are saying.
In a few hundred years these guys will have a reformation and a renaissance.
Could be.
Will they still be a few hundred years behind the West?

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by OnetimePoster:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by OnetimePoster:

Why do we pussy-foot around these evil creatures?

You mean the pawn who got convicted on little more than the fact that Libya was the Bad Guy Of The Day?

I say, Mac old chap.
"Creatures" is plural and "pawn" is singular.

No kidding, look at the subject please

Point taken.

Depends if the west falls into fundamentalism or not or if will be a third world war or not. The thing is, I may even agree with some of your arguments regarding this particular case, but when you put that much bigotry in a single post I can't help but to distance myself from your position. Please, for the sake of the discussion keep things separated.

It is said often enough that the world owes to the Arabs the preservation of knowledge from the ancients.
I am not trying to be provocative, I am not trying to make any kind of point. I just want to know: what knowledge, and when, and would the world have rediscovered it anyway?
I would be grateful to be pointed in an appropriate direction, to something in a library or on the web or anywhere.

I think the Scottish justice system is upholidng its view that they are compassionate and are doing what they feel is the correct way of acting in such a circumstance. From a more emotional point of view, maybe it's not right that megrahi is allowed out. Was it even definitely proven the guy was guilty in the first place?

Originally posted by tt92:

I just want to know: what knowledge, and when, and would the world have rediscovered it anyway?

In the dark ages, the Christianity went in all out crusade against all forms of heresies and that of course includes anything related with false gods... pretty much anything back then. The little we know of the ancient greek culture was rescued, translated and kept by the Arabs scholars and yes, some sculptures and buildings would remain for the archaeologists to study, but the works of the ancient thinkers would be lost forever; you cannot just "rediscovered it anyways" unless you got yourself a time machine.

Here is a small list of the most renowned Arab scholars, and the next time you think about algebra, algorithm, numbers amongst others, link them with the Arabic culture. Like it or not, they kept the light of knowledge at a time where darkness threaten to engulf our humankind for a very long time (perhaps forever), and for that have my honest respect.

So, praise be to Harun al-Rashid the most wise, Allah be with him!

Originally posted by tt92:

It is said often enough that the world owes to the Arabs the preservation of knowledge from the ancients.
I am not trying to be provocative, I am not trying to make any kind of point. I just want to know: what knowledge, and when, and would the world have rediscovered it anyway?
I would be grateful to be pointed in an appropriate direction, to something in a library or on the web or anywhere.

Way off-topic topic in this thread. It is an implicit assumption that scientific knowledge, when lost, will be rediscovered eventually, that it is "there" to be found. The European middle ages millennium (500-1500) wasn't quite the dark ages, but neither was it a great time and place for science and engineering. This started to change around the 13th century, for reasons under debate, but both the <a href="http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=282560">Mongols</a> and the "Arabs" (though including many other ethnicities) were important influences. The preservation of knowledge from the ancients is one thing, the application of that knowledge is another thing.

The mathematical history owns an allegiance as much to the Persians (and the Indians) as to the Arabs. Algebra is an Arabic word, but the algebraic structures were a shop-keeper's algebra. The abstract algebra we know today is a far later construction, what we associate with mathematics is just two or three centuries of age. That said the aforementioned shop-keeper's algebra caused a cultural revolution.

Well, it was dark enough for my taste, and I'm including the systematic destruction oh heretic knowledge just as "another" reason. Yes, in a sense the western culture as we know it now was a direct result of the Renaissance that was possible thanks to a combination of the rediscovery of the ancient greek culture, the knowledge preserved or developed by Arabs (amongst others) back then and a general weakening in the grasp of the church in society thanks to the plague (yes, thats way off-topic I know).