Opera 7 for the Mac

Opera 7 for the Mac

Come on guys look at the figures. Windows users compared to Mac users. There's your answer for the delay, if it ever appears at all. Panther comes with a decent browser and email client, give it a try. At least the mail client deals with spam, something Opera never did despite the claims and the Mac software is stable ...............

Opera does deal with spam, actually, and you may notice that Opera 7.50 for Windows is not yet out as a final version either...

So we'll see Opera 7.5 for Mac at the same time as 7.5 for Windows?

Interesting...

Let's not jump to conclusions here

Originally posted by haavard


Let's not jump to conclusions here

Means we Mac users are on hold again...

It means that we are not going to comment either way.

Let's face it. Since the release of Safari we haven't seen any Opera for Mac.

I'd say that opera can't compete with safari, so why bother?

Please tell me where Opera's interface can be found in Safari, and I might think Safari can compete with Opera.

Safari is just... Not as good. :-\ Sure, it's a nice web browser, certainly better than MSIE... But it's not good enough for a longtime Opera user.

I believe that the attitudes which shine through this thread could be read by a blind man. By by Opera.

If you read through these forums carefully you'll see that Opera developers confirm that they are working on MacOpera. They just want to deliver a stable and feature rich program right from the start. I know it is frustrating just to wait and have no real official deadline, but then it has always been Operas policy not to announce when what version will be out and what features it might have. If you now say bye bye to Opera you might miss a very good program. So let's be patient and give them the time to develop the best browsing experience for the mac.

Originally posted by yew13
Let's face it. Since the release of Safari we haven't seen any Opera for Mac.

Face what?

I'd say that opera can't compete with safari, so why bother?

I'd say that Safari can't compete with Opera, so why does Apple bother?

Zzz...

Originally posted by snowprick
I believe that the attitudes which shine through this thread could be read by a blind man. By by Opera.

I believe that you are talking nonsense, and that you should stop trolling.

Ok people are getting a little short tempered here and making silly comments, so let all kick back a little. I mean Safari is nice and everything but better than Opera (for Windows)?! I think not.

However, there is no question that the introduction of Safari has had a significant detrimental effect on the development plans for Opera 7.x on the Mac. Opera representatives have not been shy about expressing their displeasure with Apple over this issue. They even made noises threatening to halt development on the Mac version at one stage [url]http://news.com.com/2100-1001-982314.html?tag=nl

It is obvious that the Mac platform commands a lower priority now at Opera. This may be a perfectly legitimate business decision; only Opera know how much revenue the Mac version has generated and only they can predict how much revenue a new version facing better competition (from Safari) will likely generate. It probably makes sense that Opera use their resources on development of more profitable versions.

But let’s not beat about the bush here; you don’t have to be intimately familiar with the Opera 7 source code to know that an application such as this (particularly one which has been designed specifically to be highly portable) would not take more than a year to port to the Mac. The problem is that instead of being straightforward about their priorities, Opera have chosen to give the impression that there’s been a whole bunch of people working on the Mac version from the day it came out and they have been slaving away all this time working on the Mac port.

What is needed is for Opera to stop being economical with the facts and say “look we’ve been busy on higher priority work and we haven’t been able to give as much attention to the Mac version as we would have liked”.

I don’t unfortunately expect this situation to change anytime soon.

Originally posted by TennesseeStiff
you don’t have to be intimately familiar with the Opera 7 source code to know that an application such as this (particularly one which has been designed specifically to be highly portable) would not take more than a year to port to the Mac.

"Opera 7" is a moving target because of regular updates, and there is considerable platform specific coding to be done for a decent Mac port. And this means as a real Mac application, not just a Windows application ported to the Mac.

The problem is that instead of being straightforward about their priorities, Opera have chosen to give the impression that there’s been a whole bunch of people working on the Mac version from the day it came out and they have been slaving away all this time working on the Mac port.

You may be referring to speculation from the community, but please do not hold unofficial statements from other forum users as the truth or promises from us. I don't think we have given any impressions beyond the fact that there is a dedicated Mac team, and this team has been working on Opera for Mac all along.

However, we do not have unlimited resources, and those who have followed the Linux version will know that it lagged behind Windows, until the code bases were finally aligned, and they could be released at the same time.

Originally posted by haavard
However, we do not have unlimited resources, and those who have followed the Linux version will know that it lagged behind Windows, until the code bases were finally aligned, and they could be released at the same time.

Will that happen to the Mac version too when it first comes, so that all updates from then on will be released at the same time as windows? Or is Mac too different?

I'm planning to switch to Mac, but I would love to be able to take Opera with me..

I cannot guarantee anything since I'm not a programmer myself, but I would expect versions on those three platforms to be released around the same time, once Mac catches up. Then again, there may be things that come in the way for some reason, so it's difficult to say right now.

As I’ve said before….the if and when of an OSX port is up to Opera. Being an opera fan, I certainly wouldn’t want them to spend time and resources on something that wouldn’t be beneficial to them as a company. My problem is that they’ve been, not dishonest but rather disingenuous about the status of O7.x development.

Ever since O7.x immerged people have been asking about a Mac version and the standard answer has been, “Mac team working on it,....making it Mac like”. Well I am sorry, but it doesn’t take a year to port an already portable application to OSX however and Mac like if a team of people have been working on this starting at the time these answers were first given. The real answer should have been, “Mac team working on it....making it Mac like.....in between working on other versions such as Linux, BSD, embedded ext. which have a higher priority”

Since it is now more than a year since Opera 7 for windows emerged, with no sign of a Mac version, we can safely conclude that:

a) The Mac team is probably largely the same people as the Linux/BSD/Solaris team

and/or

b) Work on the Mac version did not start or did not start seriously until much later than was hinted at by Opera (and I do mean Opera)

I’ve spoken to a chap I know who is a seniors developer at a company which develops a couple of applications available on Unix, Mac and Windows. Now this guy is an Opera user (I converted him:)!) and knows that I post on this forum. The relevant part of the conversation went something like this:

TS: “So how long do you think it would take to port Opera 7 to MacOSX?”

Developer : “well given that they have it running on a couple of Unix’s already and...... are you going to mention this on the Opera forum?”

TS: “Erhemmm, maybe....why?”

Developer: (laughs) “ok then lets just say .... It would normally not take a year!” (more laughs)

It’s got to be some Masonic thing with programs.

Your conclusions are interesting, but fortunately wrong, and I also addressed them in my previous reply. I am telling you this straight out, again, and hope that you will read it and understand it this time: The Mac team is a completely separate team, and our Mac developers do not do work on other platforms. And Opera 7 for Mac has indeed been in development from day one. But as I have mentioned earlier, "Opera 7" is a moving target, and with 7.50, we are seeing a major redesign of the user interface, which means that there is more work for the Mac team to adapt it to the Mac.

As for your friend's comments, Opera for Mac is not a Unix port, so it is not simply a matter of changing a couple of things and recompiling. Until your friend has actually seen Opera's code base and knows exactly what needs to be done, he cannot really accurately predict how long a port till take.

It is a significant undertaking to create a real Mac application from a Windows foundation. Mac users expect software which acts consistently like Mac software, and which follows the guidelines for Mac OS. We take this very seriously, and that is why we are not going to release Opera 7 for Mac until it is ready.

Thank you for the very clear and unambiguous statement. We certainly have a lot more information. I certainly find this rather disheartening. If these guys (Opera Apple Team) are having a problem ‘catching-up’ with O7.x' ‘moving target’.......well.... I’m afraid the target doesn’t seem to show any indications of sitting down for a rest anytime soon.

Originally posted by haavard
As for your friend's comments, Opera for Mac is not a Unix port, so it is not simply a matter of changing a couple of things and recompiling. Until your friend has actually seen Opera's code base and knows exactly what needs to be done, he cannot really accurately predict how long a port till take.

So what is your point? That when they ported from Linux to OSX that it was “simply a matter of changing a couple of things and recompiling”? (*) Since I’m pretty sure you don’t know, then I’d suggest that you should assume that others take the same care and pride in their work as Opera do and face the same difficulties. Of course he has not seen your code and nor have you his. However the experience certainly dos qualify him to comment, which is what he did as apposed to making a prediction which he did not do as you have wrongly sugested.

Originally posted by haavard
It is a significant undertaking to create a real Mac application from a Windows foundation. Mac users expect software which acts consistently like Mac software, and which follows the guidelines for Mac OS. We take this very seriously, and that is why we are not going to release Opera 7 for Mac until it is ready.

What dos that mean? That (these other) guys didn’t develop a product that was well integrated with MacOS? If so how do you know? If you don’t know, then I'm left wondering what your point is? Are you suggesting that Opera’s attempts at producing a well integrated program puts you in a unique catagory? That this disqualifies others developers from making a valid observation?

Opera dos not have a monopoly on producing (cross platform) program consistent with the ‘Mac Experience’. I don’t want to labour the point but Opera’s record in this regard (on the Mac) has been less than enviable.

Other developers do have experience of porting applications; Other developers do have experience of making applications consistant with the Mac look and feel. This does make them qualified to comment on the subject. If making a real Mac application is a "significant undertaking", then other developers have demonstrated that such an undertaking can be completed with significantly better reasults and significantly more quickly than Opera have.

Now whether there is something uniquely difficult about O7.x which makes it difficult to port to the Mac, or whether the ‘Mac Team’ has an issue or whatever else is not directly relevant to this discussion. The relevant point is that given the time and resources (as per your statment) this port IS taking too long.

* For reference, the application(s) in question are not note taking applets or little image viewers. The applications they work on are designed for mechanical and thermal engineering work.

I was responding to his comment about Unix, since Unix is not relevant for the Mac version.

I think the conclusion here must be that speculating on what the cause may be or how long it should have taken is not very useful, since only our developers have the source code in the first place. My comment was an answer the question about why we haven't released Opera 7 for Mac yet.

I can't comment on your friend's application, so what I am talking about is Opera - getting things right for Mac.

The relevant point is that given the time and resources (as per your statment) this port IS taking too long.

We certainly would like to have released it sooner, but I don't think there is any point on speculating on how long it should have taken, or how long is too long. Without access to the actual code base, I would say that this is impossible to make an educated guess.

This thread has a mean subject line,
I think my mind has set a new record for going from "Glee!" to "Darn..."

One thing to kep in mind that we are a small company with limited resources, and our Mac team has actually released maintenance versions of Opera 6 for Mac when Opera 7 for Windows was already out there. So we basically had to work on two versions simultaneously.

At the same time, Opera for Mac was the first version of Opera to make the engine available as a separate library for use in other applications. This enabled us to partner with Macromedia and Adobe, to embed Opera's engine in their applications. This took some time to achieve, but it made the Mac platform even more interesting for us.

Well, good luck to the dev team. Just tried messing with the settings for Firefox and some extensions for mouse gestures and proper MDI tabbing, but... Damn. It just sucks.

11 days from today I'll only have access to a Mac. I'll have to live without Opera 7 until the Mac version is released.

Really, the main reason I still use my Windows computer much at all is Opera 7. I even considered installing Linux PPC just to use Opera...

Well, hopefully you won't have to wait for too long. We are working hard to finally be able to show you Opera 7 for Mac

I am glad to hear that your Mac team is working diligently on Opera 7. However, as you may be able to tell from the tone of these discussions, you clearly have a credibility problem.

Let me tell you why I have trouble accepting your claims at face value. More than two months ago, I posted the message below asking for help with a Java applet that was not working in Opera 6 under MacOS 9. I received ONE -- count 'em, ONE -- reply, and that just from someone telling me that it worked in Opera 6 under MacOS X.

If this is Opera's idea of taking care of its Mac-using customers, maybe you can understand why I am not the only one who is just a wee bit incredulous that you have been working oh so hard on porting Opera 7 to the Mac.

Now, would someone from Opera care to help me with my below-mentioned OS 9 problem?

Originally posted by bobgr
I'm trying to use Opera 6.03 on MacOS 9.1. I went to this page:

[url]http://epoch.chem.uky.edu/marvin.html

but the applet won't display at all. (It displays just fine in Netscape, and it does not try to shut out other browsers.) I have enabled Java and Javascript, and I am accepting all cookies. I even went to the Sun Java tester, and the applet there worked OK. The Java console selection in the Opera menu is faded, so I can't see if there's anything weird there.

Any ideas?

Most of us are upset and even angry because we love Opera so much.

And I'm sorry to say but to this day Opera has not released an acceptable version of Opera for MacOS. Not only has it always been behind the PC version, it's also been slow, buggy, and ugly. A far cry, from what many of us have experienced with the PC version which provides a smooth near orgiastic internet experience.

Personally, I've given up. While Safari is too simplistic and limited for my internet needs, OmniWeb 5 is shaping up to fill up what spot Opera would have gotten from me. It has many great features that Opera on any platform is missing (Media Browser) and the interface is far more consistent with the Aqua UI Guidelines than I would expect Opera for Mac would be considering the previous versions that appear to be ports from the PC version.

I just got tired of waiting for you guys to deliver on the Mac version you've been promising for too long.

PC Opera was the best $40 I've ever spent, and I am very disapointed at how you've showed to support a platform which I believe has a far greater chance of providing growth for Opera than Windows where most of it's users use IE because it's already there.

Originally posted by bobgr
Let me tell you why I have trouble accepting your claims at face value. More than two months ago, I posted the message below asking for help with a Java applet that was not working in Opera 6 under MacOS 9. I received ONE -- count 'em, ONE -- reply, and that just from someone telling me that it worked in Opera 6 under MacOS X.

If this is Opera's idea of taking care of its Mac-using customers, maybe you can understand why I am not the only one who is just a wee bit incredulous that you have been working oh so hard on porting Opera 7 to the Mac.

bobgr, you have to remember that this forum is mostly a peer to peer support forum. Opera does have real customer service for users on every desktop platform: [url]https://support.opera.com/bin/customer/

Originally posted by Elektran 014
bobgr, you have to remember that this forum is mostly a peer to peer support forum. Opera does have real customer service for users on every desktop platform: [url]https://support.opera.com/bin/customer/

Yes, I understand that, Elektran. But I can't use the regular support forum because I haven't paid for Opera 6. I might pay for it if someone from Opera would help me get it to work, but no one from Opera has bothered to help me. If Opera expects me to pay for a product that seems to me to be dysfunctional just so I can have the privilege of hearing directly from them whether it is, they are sorely mistaken. And their lack of response to an honest query from a potential customer shows both disregard for a potential sale and an astonishing lack of pride in their product.

You still don't get it do you?

This is a USER SUPPORT FORUM where USERS HELP USERS. They have no obligation to give you a reply to anything. This is how it works in the software industry. If you aren't willing to pay, you aren't going to get personal support.

That's just the way it is. Accept it and move on.

I joined the Opera Community just so I could make this comment in this thread, and I don't mean to flame or make anybody mad.

Unlike bobgr, I did buy Opera 6, and I've had it for a long time, though it isn't useful. I use Opera on my Windows computer, and I actually like Opera 6 better than 7 on that platform. I've been using Opera for a long, long time.

But Opera for Mac isn't a good browser, never has been. I'd use it if it were. As it is, $40 isn't a big sum for me, but there have been times in my life when it was, and I'd have been very resentful of the company's mealy-mouthed behavior. The comments of the "customer service" guy sound like a political spinmeister, not a customer service guy. To be fair, he's in a difficult position!

The fact is, I didn't pay the $40 to buy a clunky, not-ready-for-prime-time browser. I paid to support the Opera company and its development of the browser. It must mean something that I've never even HEARD of some of the OS's that have Opera v7.

I disagree that "it's better than IE." It's not. Apart from that the only obvious difference between IE for the Mac and Opera for the Mac is that MS tells you when the next version of IE is coming out.

When you think about it, "never" is a good, solid answer an honest company would give. So is "July 29th." So is, "by the end of 2003."

"At an undisclosable time in the near or far indefinite future due to complexities involved in the implementation of v7.5 for Windows blah blah blah"--isn't.

Originally posted by Binoculous
You still don't get it do you?

This is a USER SUPPORT FORUM where USERS HELP USERS. They have no obligation to give you a reply to anything. This is how it works in the software industry. If you aren't willing to pay, you aren't going to get personal support.

That's just the way it is. Accept it and move on.

First of all, let me make it clear, I am not upset about the users not helping me, I am upset about the company Opera not helping me.

Second, you did not read what I said. I would pay for Opera if I was sure that it would work with the applets I need it to work with. But I am not going to pay for a product that does not function properly, with no one at the company willing to tell me whether I am doing something wrong or whether it is a flaw in the product. Would you buy a car that didn't start on the hope that once you bought it, someone would tell you how to make it start, although they refused to tell you before you forked over the money? I didn't think so.

Many companies have both free and paid versions of their software. Most have less customer support for the free version, but many do have support for it nevertheless. They have support for the free version because they understand that users who have a good experience with the free version will often choose to pay for the full version later, and they understand that users who don't have a good experience, certainly won't. That's just good business practice. A company that alienates potential customers sure as heck ain't gonna stay in business very long.

Just read the posts on this forum -- not the ones from me, but from others, including many longtime users of Opera on other platforms. Read what they say about the quality of Opera 6 for Mac and how they are losing interest in Opera 7 for Mac. Is this any way to run a business?

Originally posted by jose4
It must mean something that I've never even HEARD of some of the OS's that have Opera v7.

Yes. It means that you are ignorant.

I disagree that "it's better than IE." It's not.

It is. But considering your apparent ignorance, one can forgive you such uninformed opinions.

When you think about it, "never" is a good, solid answer an honest company would give. So is "July 29th." So is, "by the end of 2003."

"At an undisclosable time in the near or far indefinite future due to complexities involved in the implementation of v7.5 for Windows blah blah blah"--isn't.

Of course it is. It is your kind who returns and starts complaining about how the company "lied" to you if they don't deliver as planned. I know your kind. I've seen it before.

So it is better, and more logical, to simply not say anything. Because even if you hint at a release date - if you miss it, people like you will start talking about how the company "lied" to you etc.

Originally posted by bobgr
First of all, let me make it clear, I am not upset about the users not helping me, I am upset about the company Opera not helping me.

You still don't get it do you?

This is a USER SUPPORT FORUM where USERS HELP USERS. They (Opera) have no obligation to give you a reply to anything. This is how it works in the software industry. If you aren't willing to pay, you aren't going to get personal support.

That's just the way it is. Accept it and move on.

But I am not going to pay for a product that does not function properly, with no one at the company willing to tell me whether I am doing something wrong or whether it is a flaw in the product. Would you buy a car that didn't start on the hope that once you bought it, someone would tell you how to make it start, although they refused to tell you before you forked over the money? I didn't think so.

You still don't get it do you?

This is a USER SUPPORT FORUM where USERS HELP USERS. They (Opera) have no obligation to give you a reply to anything. This is how it works in the software industry. If you aren't willing to pay, you aren't going to get personal support.

That's just the way it is. Accept it and move on.

Many companies have both free and paid versions of their software. Most have less customer support for the free version, but many do have support for it nevertheless. They have support for the free version because they understand that users who have a good experience with the free version will often choose to pay for the full version later, and they understand that users who don't have a good experience, certainly won't. That's just good business practice. A company that alienates potential customers sure as heck ain't gonna stay in business very long.

Opera has been in business for nearly a decade.

Just read the posts on this forum -- not the ones from me, but from others, including many longtime users of Opera on other platforms. Read what they say about the quality of Opera 6 for Mac and how they are losing interest in Opera 7 for Mac. Is this any way to run a business?

What do you know about running a business?

Nothing.

Originally posted by haavard
At the same time, Opera for Mac was the first version of Opera to make the engine available as a separate library for use in other applications. This enabled us to partner with Macromedia and Adobe, to embed Opera's engine in their applications. This took some time to achieve, but it made the Mac platform even more interesting for us.

I can verify this. I went to an Adobe conference where they were showing us the latest and greatest in Adobe products, and when they got to the GoLive section they mentioned specifically that they were using "Opera's advanced rendering engine" on the Mac version (sadly, they were using IE's rendering(?) engine on Windows). So despite everyone's comments to the contrary, Opera 7.x for Mac will happen ... it's just a question of when.

Basically, if the rendering engine is up to speed, this means that Haavard is right, and the Mac team is just working on getting the user interface to be a proper Mac program with a proper Mac UI. As a recent PC to Mac convert, I can't wait to get my favorite piece of software back in my greedy little hands.

Watch closely, something new in Opera for Mac-land might be appearing soon.....

Argh, Junyor, you are cruel!
What means "soon"? Days? Weeks? Months?

*big eyes like a little child under christmas tree*

...soon = sooner than you might think... Without saying too much, I wouldn't go to sleep just yet if I were you...

Let's see - I had almost 1 hour of sleep last night.
So I'll probably fall asleep on my keyboard while awaitening the "something new"
and wake up in the middle of the night, not believing my eyes when they claim to see .... ? on the screen.

Anyway, I'm very curious now!

Check this out!!

[url]http://people.opera.com/tim/screenshots/o750p3mac.jpg

Moderator note: updated to non-temp URL

wow! the first picture! or did you ever see any of o7mac before?
It's neither saying P3 nor beta in the titlebar.
Are we maybe observing - "live" - the presentation of O7.50final, for FIVE different OSs ???


*incredible suspense here*

Well, going directly for final wouldn't be too wise, but this is the first screenshot ever of MacOpera 7.50 Preview 3.

Originally posted by eiriks
...soon = sooner than you might think... Without saying too much, I wouldn't go to sleep just yet if I were you...

I really hope we get Opera 7 for Mac this time. Mozilla.org is gearing up for Moz 1.7 Beta, and Safari has been updated. Opera must deliver quickly or lose the Mac market.

Originally posted by Adaxl
I really hope we get Opera 7 for Mac this time. Mozilla.org is gearing up for Moz 1.7 Beta, and Safari has been updated. Opera must deliver quickly or lose the Mac market.

Opera will deliver very very soon.... Judging the hints given by some opera people I think you can expect a Preview version for opera 7.5 for mac very very soon.

Originally posted by Adaxl
I really hope we get Opera 7 for Mac this time. Mozilla.org is gearing up for Moz 1.7 Beta, and Safari has been updated. Opera must deliver quickly or lose the Mac market.

Mozilla is a very good browser, but just too ugly for the Mac - sorry.
And Safari is pretty, but too simple.
If the design of O7 is as coherent with OSX as OmniWeb, for example, it will be clear No.1 for me again!

I wonder if Mac users will be able to share setups with Windows users. If I have a setup for Win, will it work for Mac, too? Or do Mac have toys we don't and vice versa?

M.

Originally posted by Moose
I wonder if Mac users will be able to share setups with Windows users. If I have a setup for Win, will it work for Mac, too? Or do Mac have toys we don't and vice versa?

M.

I guess you will just have to wait a little longer and find out. I cant say about this feature, so you will just have to try it for yourself when it comes out.

You'll just have to wait and see...

I will never have a Mac, so I will never be able to see for myself. I just wondered if the upcoming Mac version is "compatible" with all others...

M.

Moose: I'm using [url]http://www.literarymoose.info/=/opera/toolbar/moose-toolbar-75.ini right now.

IT'S HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[url]http://snapshot.opera.com/mac/m750p3.html

I didn't think it would be that soon