Who's god?

Who's god?

God died for d world?

Originally posted by trout0211:

Humans who deny God simply have no relationship or experience with God.

In other words, people who refuse to brainwash themselves into religious delusion.

Originally posted by trout0211:

God is always your Highest Thought, your Clearest Word, your Grandest Feeling. Anything less is from another source. Highest contains Joy. Clearest words truth and Grandest is Love. Joy Truth and Love simple......

Sounds like what you get from cocaine. Or so I heard

Originally posted by trout0211:

Humans who deny God simply have no relationship or experience with God. God is always your Highest Thought, your Clearest Word, your Grandest Feeling. Anything less is from another source. Highest contains Joy. Clearest words truth and Grandest is Love. Joy Truth and Love simple......

and that's just an idealistic dream.
So what is it when you're sad cause someone you love lied to you? the devil? complicated?

Uh... I'm not entirely convinced that you're being serious posting this unintelligible sort of mumbo-jumbo or simply stirring the pot...

Originally posted by trout0211:

Humans who deny God simply have no relationship or experience with God. God is always your Highest Thought, your Clearest Word, your Grandest Feeling. Anything less is from another source. Highest contains Joy. Clearest words truth and Grandest is Love. Joy Truth and Love simple......

None of these words has any meaning in a rational, empirical sense. In fact, your whole premise is based on what amounts to a classic "begging the question" scenario, as well as using a lot of typical religionist non sequiturs.

You're presupposing the existence of the supernatural entity that you call god, and then basing ALL your arguments to support those beliefs on that easily, demonstrably incorrect presupposition. It's one of the oldest traps that people without any substantive proof of their theories fall back on; and it's not something new — it's been used by all sorts of people for centuries.

I've actually not seen with my own eyes that out planet is spherical, but I understand absolutely that it is so. My inherent powers of logic confirm this too. As does scientific evidence that's been presented by learned men for my consideration. I also can't present any alternative hypotheses of my own, and which is factually supported, that would suggest a flat Earth. According to your reasoning, because I have no experience or relationship with your hypothetical god, I cannot comment on its existence — or otherwise. This is patently illogical, as by extension of the same reasoning, I'd still believe that the Earth was flat — as did our ancestors 2000 years ago.

You're also making the very common error that all religionists make about we atheists: On the contrary we don't deny the existence of your hypothetical god. I know it's difficult — if not impossible — for you to comprehend that we atheists do not accept any hypothesis regarding the existence of a supernatural being, any more than we'd accept and/or seriously investigate the hypotheses of fairies or ghosts or leprechauns. To make it clearer, it's the hypothesis that atheists don't believe in, and not the entity itself you call god. In other words, mostly we don't waste our productive time by attempting to "disprove" the existence of something that simply... um... isn't there!

Obviously, I can't "disprove" the existence of fairies per se, but it seems that you're suggesting that in the case of your "god" I should somehow, magically and mindlessly "accept" its existence? Do you personally believe in fairies? And if not why not? Could you use that similar logic in determining whether fairies exist or not, and apply that same reasoning to the existence or non-existence of your hypothetical "god"?

Put simply; what's the difference between god and fairies (in your opinion)?

—Cheers, Geoff.

Originally posted by ensbb3:

Originally posted by trout0211:

Humans who deny God simply have no relationship or experience with God. God is always your Highest Thought, your Clearest Word, your Grandest Feeling. Anything less is from another source. Highest contains Joy. Clearest words truth and Grandest is Love. Joy Truth and Love simple......

and that's just an idealistic dream.
So what is it when you're sad cause someone you love lied to you? the devil? complicated?

Basic christianity - if something happens which you like it's Praise Gawd! But if something happens which you don't like it's either your own fault or satan's. That's how we know god is good

Originally posted by Macallan:

Basic christianity - if something happens which you like it's Praise Gawd! But if something happens which you don't like it's either your own fault or satan's. That's how we know god is good

yeah, I was trying to get him to realize that crazy logic... But your right, he wouldn't of.

Originally posted by Macallan:

.....Basic christianity - if something happens which you like it's Praise Gawd! But if something happens which you don't like it's either your own fault or satan's. That's how we know god is good.

The news from Branquinha, Brazil on 25 June read: "Nearly the entire population of a small village of ceramic artisans and descendants of runaway slaves survived a massive flooding by clinging to two jack fruit trees and praying through a rainy night, officials said Thursday."

“It was a true miracle,” said Adriano de Araujo Jorge, president of the Alagoas state environmental agency. Then, as if driven by an unnatural urge to tell the truth, he added: “The jack fruit trees are strong — most of the surrounding trees had fallen." This was no fake or false miracle, to be sure. Was it a true miracle? Sure, in the sense that most people use the word these days: it was an apparently good thing in the midst of a disaster. If you can't find the miracle in a disaster, you're not looking hard enough!

The villagers got to spend 18 hours from their perches looking at their homes washing away with the flotsam. The news that the floods killed 25 people and destroyed the homes of 120,000 others may or may not have cheered up the villagers as they climbed down to the sound of a marching band and priests hurling benedictions, urging the surviving artisans to look at the bright side: "God helps them that help themselves, and all the rest of that stuff."

To the believers who telepathically inform us that the invisible guy in the sky designed the universe so that just those trees would be in just that place at just that time to save just these people I ask: what solace do you take in the methodical killing and rampaging by flood? Well, you might say, at least the saved villagers could nibble on a tasty jack fruit snack while they watched their homes float away. That's not much comfort to those who were just a tree away from salvation when disaster struck however.

—Over to the religionists.....

God is the only creator of the universe, and the judge of humankind. He is unique and inherently one, all-merciful, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent."

God is the only creator of the universe, and the judge of humankind. He is unique and inherently one, all-merciful, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent."

Unfortunately for very strong believers like you and someone who believes but questions things like myself, these forums are full of atheists.

In fact they argue so much against the existence of God that I think they want to be disproved. I cannot disprove or prove for them the existence of God. I can merely advise that no one person has the answer. Throughout my life I can only say that i have seen pretty strong evidence that the forces of darkness exist, and so do forces of good. There is good and evil whether people like it or not.

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

There is good and evil whether people like it or not.

And the good and evil is us.

Anyway, of course I want to be proven wrong if I'm wrong. You don't?

And the good and evil is us. Anyway, of course I want to be proven wrong if I'm wrong. You don't?

I don't really need to be proven wrong, because I think to myself that really, there is a God, though I'm not sure about organised religion.
To never question things and to have blind faith, well thats not me. Maybe i would like to have an unwavering faith. Would probably make life easier.
As far as the good and evil thing goes. Thats really complex but i don't think its just a matter of of braincells. I think people can be consumed be evil, where once they were good. Sorry, sounds medieval, but thats my opinion. Seen too much weird shit and weird people.

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

Unfortunately for very strong believers like you and someone who believes but questions things like myself, these forums are full of atheists.

Why is that unfortunate? Granted, some of them can be very annoying, but the same goes for the other side of the theist-atheist divide.

Originally posted by Zotlan:

Why is that unfortunate? Granted, some of them can be very annoying, but the same goes for the other side of the theist-atheist divide.

Let's just say that some people can be annoying.

Why is that unfortunate? Granted, some of them can be very annoying, but the same goes for the other side of the theist-atheist divide.

Danbuzu said:

God is the only creator of the universe, and the judge of humankind. He is unique and inherently one, all-merciful, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent."

So, it is unfortunate for Danbuzu with regards to his plight, because many people on here hold view which conflict sharply with his own.

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

So, it is unfortunate for Danbuzu with regards to his plight, because many people on here hold view which conflict sharply with his own.

There is nothing unfortunate about that, we'd never get anywhere if everyone agreed the whole time. It is only unfortunate that some people are intollerant of other people's opinions. If he does not like it when people do not believe in god (mind you, i'm not saying that he is like that) that is his problem.

There is nothing unfortunate about that, we'd never get anywhere if everyone agreed the whole time. It is only unfortunate that some people are intollerant of other people's opinions. If he does not like it when people do not believe in god (mind you, i'm not saying that he is like that) that is his problem.

Er.. so you're arguing with yourself. I was saying that a bold religious statement like the one he made was a waste of time bearing in mind the people who would read it. A bit like a man shouting in a deserted forest. A big forest as well.
F::: sake, we could be here all day.

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

Unfortunately for very strong believers like you and someone who believes but questions things like myself, these forums are full of atheists.

How is that unfortunate? Is Danbuzu's faith so weak that he cannot defend his faith in the event of a question put to him by one of us.
For my part, I like thinking. I like to make others think as well.
How else will anyone learn anything if they don't think?

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

In fact they argue so much against the existence of God that I think they want to be disproved.

If I am wrong, yes. Thus far, I see no reason as to why I am wrong.

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

Throughout my life I can only say that i have seen pretty strong evidence that the forces of darkness exist, and so do forces of good.

If you don't mind sharing (and it isn't too personal) what evidence did you see?

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

There is good and evil whether people like it or not.

According to you and your ilk, yes.

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

I don't really need to be proven wrong, because I think to myself that really, there is a God

Why do you think that?

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

So, it is unfortunate for Danbuzu with regards to his plight, because many people on here hold view which conflict sharply with his own.

I still don't see why that is unfortunate. It is quite healthy to think and learn.
Albeit Danbuzu's particular brand of holy book states that the holy book isn't to be questioned..., but I digress.

I think the Question is how would you think God is,how can you combine Love,Justice,Rightouesness,Wisdom,Being Just,Perfect,Pure,The Truth,Omnipowerfull,omnipresent,The Judge,The Balancer(I think Truth proves this),everlasting,Being Worthy of Praise and Worship,Owner,God of Order,have many names as to His Character,how can you tell God is female or male(this is really ilogical and senseless...Originator,Source of Everything,Beginning and End(which solves the time and space wonderings),Intelligence,Understanding,and What just and rational and logical Truth exerted title is God Holy,Holy,Holy,also that His Spiritual Weight(meaning how Heavy is God's Truth or Truth of God in physical form) and pressure is Stating God's being,how timeless is God's Speed over Creation or Existence,He Knows the Future and makes the future.
Good,Goodness.
What logical all Worthy Name for God's default state,and changing characterictics,would God Godly deserve,as the Head of Time,the Ancient of Days,The Creator,other than the only senseful one 'I am what I am'.
Also names must be words of meaning,not proper names,but names in our ancient perfect lenguage are words of meaning,like titles.
God has said My name is Jelousy,Anger,and many others.
So Names are Titles,words with meanings,living words,action words,like Jesus.
Jesus's name Jesus is not Jesus,His name is God is Salvation.
The Word of God.
God said,I will send you my Word,the Word that Created you to save thee,when He becomes of the seed of you flesh...
God also stating to comfort Adam of his suffering,I will suffer too ike you when I come for you.

Remember Emmanuel,that is Jesus's name which is God with us.

How can we connect all of these,with sin infringing on the side?

We should take this part by part,digest it,and see why each is why is that makes God.
I think the origin of the knowledge of good of evil should appear in one of this.

Remember God said when Adam and Eve ate the fruit,that they have become like us.

God's Attributes and Titles show the other side of the Coin.
Remember God is The Father of Lights in whom there is no shadow of variance,even though God made the darkness,space and anything alike.
God's Truthfullness has stated the morals,terms,goodness,right,uprightness,justice,righteousness,Love,and more.

The Apostle said,that God's holy spiritual laws(Truth) reveal sin to be sin and sinful,yet without invalidating God.

Remember God does not tempt with evil,that is sin,invalidating God,and God's Attributes,neither is God tempted.

Every good and perfect gift comes from above,from the Father of Lights.
Also the Wisdom that is from above is Pure,easily entreated,humble...and more.

You can tell how Wisdom,Love,Righteousness,Justice,and more of God's attributes,being God them are all the same,and related.

Love is Holy.
Justice too.
Righteousness.
Wisdom.
And more.

In Proverbs Wisdom speaks for Herself how God made her and where she dwells and with who,and how God used her.
And is awesome.

But The Bible isn't empty.
Just try to put all these things together,and it will come more senseful.

So just by our intelligent reasoning even if you don't believe try to prove these even with educated knowledge,try to connect how can there be sin,judgment and love,with The Bible's claimed statements l,just go bits by bits and I think regressive intelligence will get close even with conventional science,physics,etc...

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

In fact they argue so much against the existence of God that I think they want to be disproved.

Well, you guys keep claiming that you can but so far none of you got even close to delivering.

Well, you guys keep claiming that you can but so far none of you got even close to delivering.

You guys!!
lol. I'm scared now thinking about which religious group I have been affiliated with.

This guy seems quite 'on the level'.

I am God.

However, for My believers I should point out: I'd Really Rather You Didn't Act Like A Sanctimonious Holier-Than-Thou Ass When Describing My Noodly Goodness. If Some People Don't Believe In Me, That's Okay. Really, I'm Not That Vain. Besides, This Isn't About Them So Don't Change The Subject.

just a friendly comment,we don't do we are holier than you speech,we just like you to know by experience the testimony we have,if we judge you than is our fault,since it is Christ's good news,but because the bad news still there,judgment.
Since we know and Jesus has called us sick,the message is believe,show the first step of faith before God in a deed that God honors,sees acceptable,and considers you that you truly believe in His message.
And the commandment is,believe in the Son.
I'm speaking like this since you know the word.

I'm God!! WOOOOOOOOOO!!!! BOW DOWN!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA


*cough* Ahem.


The FSM is God

Originally posted by MuhammadDanish:

hi .GOD who create all the world.in ths world every thing ned a creater then think how the world z create.
that iz God ALLAH the most merciful and mighty.md

Alhamdulillah, at last i found a muslim. You guy agree or disagree but the truth is Allah has created us, the universe. Read The Quran, how It displays the light of knowledge before 1400 years ago. Visit> http://harunyahya.com

Originally posted by Munna09:

Originally posted by MuhammadDanish:

hi .GOD who create all the world.in ths world every thing ned a creater then think how the world z create.
that iz God ALLAH the most merciful and mighty.md

Alhamdulillah, at last i found a muslim. You guy agree or disagree but the truth is Allah has created us, the universe. Read The Quran, how It displays the light of knowledge before 1400 years ago. Visit> http://harunyahya.com

Prove it. Prove your God created the universe with logic, common sense, or reason, and I'll believe you.

Yup. Of course. First of all, i have to prove if the Quran is realy the book of God? Ok? Then , u must agree with me that Allah is our God as in Quran everywhere it is written that only Allah is our only One True God.

Ummm... no. Just because something is said doesn't make it true.

Originally posted by Munna09:

Originally posted by MuhammadDanish:

hi .GOD who create all the world.in ths world every thing ned a creater then think how the world z create.
that iz God ALLAH the most merciful and mighty.md

Alhamdulillah, at last i found a muslim. You guy agree or disagree but the truth is Allah has created us, the universe. Read The Quran, how It displays the light of knowledge before 1400 years ago. Visit> http://harunyahya.com

And you link to the muslim equivalent of Kent Hovind? The clown who can't tell the difference between a bug and a fishing lure?!

It's sad how people of faith tend (I'm not getting caught on the generalisation way out ) to have absolutely no idea that they can be wrong. Unfortunately, most atheists are the same Seems not many people have open minds anymore

Originally posted by MConor:

Seems not many people have open minds anymore

many do... Debating on this subject is more like warfare tho... attack and defense.
it's an emotional subject for many and emotions have a way of overruling reasoning.

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

...In fact they argue so much against the existence of God that I think they want to be disproved.

Why is it that every Sunday one can see thousands and thousands of people gathering in big rooms called churches to glorify their imaginary god, and mutually reinforce their collective belief in its existence?

Why is it that you never see thousands of atheists gathered together every week loudly proclaiming their denial of the existence of this god?

Simply because the former group (as individuals) aren't really, really sure of their god's existence, and need the trappings and the props to reinforce their illusion, whereas the latter group know that it doesn't exist, and don't have any need for mass hysteria. (...was that a pun there?)

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

In fact they argue so much against the existence of God that I think they want to be disproved

The majority of what I see on here is not atheists wanting to disprove the existence of a god, or proposing proof that one doesn't exist, but of atheists and agnostics pointing out the multiple errors contained in the various religions that are 'promoted' on here.

The arguments are against specific gods and the accounts offered in support of those gods, and are not arguments against the unknown.

Your own position seems cloudy, especially given this sentence:

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

because I think to myself that really, there is a God, though I'm not sure about organised religion.

Your own position seems cloudy, especially given this sentence:

Having faith in God is difficult sometimes. Peoples moods change. Bad things happen.
I don't view my belief as a logical thing, i'm just convinced there is someone who created me, an overseer, occasionally giving me 'signs' in life.
I'm convinced there is a God.
Even parts of the bible I can't get my head round, belief in God is not black and white. Spirituality is a bit like sexuality methinks. You just feel, how you feel.

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

because I think to myself that really, there is a God, though I'm not sure about organised religion.

[/quote]

+1, only I'm definitely not sure about organised religion

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

Spirituality is a bit like sexuality methinks. You just feel, how you feel.

I disagree. 3-4 years ago I was a Christian at ease with the world.
About a year and a half ago I did something that ruined that ease...... I read the whole Bible and applied my critical thinking skills that I have developed in college to what I read in the Bible in it's entirety. The result? Me as I am today. A liberated person of sorts.
I had always thought of a burning bush as strange, but that along with the poor civilizations who dared irritate old YHWH and the poor woman who wanted to look back at Soddam and Gomorrah....

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

I read the whole Bible and applied my critical thinking skills that I have developed in college to what I read in the Bible in it's entirety.

Well done, you would be familiar with the scripture " and war broke out in heaven.....And satan was hurled down to earth".I would suggest this may
support my hypothesis that Hell exists on earth and further the scriptures were inspired by wicked and evil men together with good men, good vs evil being promulgated by the reader. Many non believers emphasise the cruel and evil entries as from Good(pun) when in fact they were inspired by Satan. Cheers.

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by Munna09:

Originally posted by MuhammadDanish:

hi .GOD who create all the world.in ths world every thing ned a creater then think how the world z create.
that iz God ALLAH the most merciful and mighty.md

Alhamdulillah, at last i found a muslim. You guy agree or disagree but the truth is Allah has created us, the universe. Read The Quran, how It displays the light of knowledge before 1400 years ago. Visit> http://harunyahya.com

And you link to the muslim equivalent of Kent Hovind? The clown who can't tell the difference between a bug and a fishing lure?!

oops! Monkey lover atheists
dont argue here, read the name of this topic "WHO IS GOD" not Where is God?!

So, we will be happy if u go with ur inappropiate gibberish towards ur same topic. Ok.
Be logical man! .

who's god? maybe it all human mind. man is god (in some way) and everything's energy at last

Originally posted by Munna09:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by Munna09:

Originally posted by MuhammadDanish:

hi .GOD who create all the world.in ths world every thing ned a creater then think how the world z create.
that iz God ALLAH the most merciful and mighty.md

Alhamdulillah, at last i found a muslim. You guy agree or disagree but the truth is Allah has created us, the universe. Read The Quran, how It displays the light of knowledge before 1400 years ago. Visit> http://harunyahya.com

And you link to the muslim equivalent of Kent Hovind? The clown who can't tell the difference between a bug and a fishing lure?!

oops! Monkey lover atheists
dont argue here, read the name of this topic "WHO IS GOD" not Where is God?!

Maybe you should actually read what you're 'responding' to - maybe then you'll sound a little less like a deranged fool.

Originally posted by Munna09:

So, we will be happy if u go with ur inappropiate gibberish towards ur same topic. Ok.

Alright, which part of my post did you have trouble understanding? Do I need to type slower? Use shorter words and simpler sentences? Bigger fonts?

Originally posted by Munna09:

Be logical man! .

I am logical. You apparently wouldn't know logic if it bit you in the arse. So why exactly should we accept a known fraud, a pathological liar and convicted criminal as an authority on this particular topic?
Oh, crap, too may big words again. Too damn bad.

Originally posted by leftwing:

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

I read the whole Bible and applied my critical thinking skills that I have developed in college to what I read in the Bible in it's entirety.

Well done, you would be familiar with the scripture " and war broke out in heaven.....And satan was hurled down to earth".

The King James Version has no such verse. Actually, Satan is only mentioned a few times in the old testament at all, the vast majority of them in the book of Job. Once in Chronicles, once in Psalms, twice in Zechariah. None of them mention anything about satan getting the boot.
The new testament mentions him a little more often, most of it - surprise, surprise - in Revelations. Still no satan being kicked out.

Originally posted by Jaybro:

My god created your god.

Some bearded man with a white robe in the sky playing "The sims 5000" in a Play Station 9000 right on top of a cloud, and using cheats.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Originally posted by OnetimePoster:

I created Jaybro's god, and further than that I will not reveal.

Not even under Inquisitorial torture? Are you sure?
Yes, you will. They all do.

Oh, I do love torture! Bring on the cat-o'-nine and the dancing girls!

I am the way, the means and the blight.

BTW, God held down the gas pedal on Tiger Woods' car.

Payback's a bitch.

Hell is not a exact term or title,but truthfully there is Hades.
Hades is a place where people partially are being punished waiting the final judgment where once done Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire.
For me the lake of fire is the latter term called hell.
Hades is different.
though there are degrees of punishment,at the end ot the times,it will be the lake of fire.
personally I think satan is constantly criticizing us and judging us before God.
until his due time.
remember it says an angel or the Lord gives us a warning that Satan is unto us now since now that he is hurled unto earth.
and the third host of heaven he has brought down,meaning he has succesfully convinced that ratio of God's angels(don't get it fancy they are messengers,beings with a greater duties than ours).
and that hasn't happened yet.
and this doesn't mean it all happened at once,angels are listening to Satan whose name is enemy or enemist,the tempter,liar,thief,hater,oppose to everything Godly(just pointing out his titles),
and this just happens in the go flow of time-slow.
you can call it it happens rarely.
that doesn't mean he is in heaven,but he can go to heaven God allowed,and it doesn't say this happened at the time of the garden of Eden,so Satan has some ground in heaven where he could bring down a angel to forsake God,or make an angel do stuffs where God forsakes this certain angel.

People have misused the term hell with Hades,either they think is the same for them or they haven't heard of Hades.
but biblicly there is a place of torture called Hades and the lake of fire.
I call the lake of fire,hell.
Since it is used as the term of the place where you are done for after judgment day.

Hades is the place of degrees before judgment day.


I know the Roman Catholic church has made some stuffs unchristians which I'm against,and Protestant denomination have hipocrisy with them.
But if you knew the Word wouldn't you just honestly follow it even when people make all of these contradictions.

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

Hell is not a exact term or title,....
For me the lake of fire is ...
personally I think ....
don't get it fancy they are ...
you can call it ...
People have misused the term hell ...
I call the lake of fire,hell.

Go on, admit it, you're making this all up to scare yourself.

String I was responding to dawgfan.
Hades is the place of punishment with degrees but only partial,then Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire,hell.
Dawgfan knows hell is a latter term.
I said personally,because of what most people believe,that misused that term hell and Hades.
and which I believe is right and I teach it,but some don't believe.
which is that the title hell is used as the final term of punishment where someone is to spend eternally.
that's why I call the lake of fire hell.

maybe miswrote things.

the way it reads,it says that there isn't much time,which means if Satan is cast out,which by place he is he didn't bring the third of hosts,he brought some hosts but not the amount described,but when he is truly cast out,no place(ground on anything to accuse or judge) in heaven then there is not time for him and for us.
Which makes sense

Originally posted by string:

Go on, admit it, you're making this all up to scare yourself.

(would that it were so)

I wasn't trying to scare,just that why would these terms pointed out be fancy,or fairylish.
doesn't go like that for me.

For the uninitiated, fairylish is the language spoken by...you guessed it!...Fairies!

All fairies in the whole wide world speak the same language?

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

Which makes sense

*raises eyebrow* Really?
Does all of that rubbish really make sense?

just at jaybro.
do you want me to circumscribe the semántics Of my saying,and rereplerppliate the insuerurcy Of the sactics Of my rythms.
Inconfiantly i myself reprudectly couldnt say if said Per say the unlooseusliness Of this repertoir,which i unscribeslessly and profientliless have abide to come to say-unreleaved,which the manner Of my secantes and cosecantes have untangebly become iresourceful deriving the underived derived deritible pro-susurre prosecant Of my known unknowns legitibly,why would i speakeshly eloquently wished surtry my words pro-grammarly state them in a unbounded bias lawless says Of the suite fresa fruites Of latin

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

just at jaybro.

geez, learn to quote

God aint allaah!! Allaah is the devil

just joking

but honestly dawgfan I'm on to you

but ll be out might be for a while

don't get me wrong

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

but honestly dawgfan I'm on to you

Ok.

I'm not quite sure why you need to be "on to" me, when all I am trying to do is get you to use that which you think YHWH gave you. (Your brain)

God is the one who has sent down miracles, revelations and messengers to give clear proofs He exists and more important, what we should do once we come to this realization. God has sent prophets and messengers with many proofs throughout the ages for people to be able to clearly see with their own eyes and to be able to use their own senses the miracles and proofs pointing to the fact, God does in fact, exist.
Miracles of prophets and messengers of God have come to people through the ages. Moses (peace be upon him) showed many miracles to pharaoh and to the children of Israel. Plagues, locusts, water turning to blood, his stick becoming a snake, the voice in the burning bush and the parting of the Red Sea are clear miracles for the people of Moses time.
Again, God sent Jesus, the son of Mary (peace be upon him) with clear miracles for the people of his time. Speaking from the cradle while still a new born infant, creating birds from clay, curing the sick, giving sight to the blind and even bringing a dead man back to life, were all clear signs to the people to know Jesus (peace be upon him) was a messenger of God as was Moses before him. Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the last and final messenger of Allah, and he was sent to all of mankind. Allah sent him with a number of miracles, not the least of which was the Quran. The predictions and prophecies of Muhammad (peace be upon him) have come true even in this century and the Quran has been used to convince even scientists of the existence of God.

The Quran is the best of proofs for the existence of God and today over one and half billion people memorize and recite from the exact text, in the exact same language it was revealed in; Arabic. More than 10 million Muslims have completely memorized the entire Quran from cover to cover, and can recite it from memory without looking at it.
No one sees or hears God, not even the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Nor are we able to use our senses to make some kind of contact with Him. However, we are encouraged in Islam to use our senses and our common sense to recognize this entire universe could not possibly come into existence on its own.
Something had to design it all and then put it into motion. This is beyond our ability to do, yet it is something we can understand. We know from the teachings of Muhammad (peace be upon him) the proofs for the existence of God (Allah) are most obvious to us in our everyday surroundings. Anyone with understanding would quickly acknowledge His existence provided they are not so stubborn as to ignore the obvious evidences right in front of us.
We don't have to see an artist to recognize a painting, correct? So, if we see paintings without seeing artists painting them, in the same way, we can believe Allah created everything without having to see Him (or touch, or hear, etc.).

Originally posted by MuhammadDanish:

hi .GOD who create all the world.in ths world every thing ned a creater then think how the world z create.
that iz God ALLAH the most merciful and mighty.md

Hail oh holy one :clown:

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Originally posted by lindiwekantulu:

GOD DID NOT DIE FOR THE WORLD JESUS DID.

Do feel free to prove it at any time.

He did not die did he or did he nah he didnt cause MyOpera is running

Originally posted by Luxor:

Originally posted by handsomekhan:

God create the earth and sky within 7 days

Prove it.... whoops! you can't.

ok prove you cannot .

Originally posted by curtjamie:

God aint allaah!! Allaah is the devil

Go shovel your remains .!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

God is the one who has sent down miracles, revelations and messengers to give clear proofs He exists and more important, what we should do once we come to this realization. God has sent prophets and messengers with many proofs throughout the ages for people to be able to clearly see with their own eyes and to be able to use their own senses the miracles and proofs pointing to the fact, God does in fact, exist.
Miracles of prophets and messengers of God have come to people through the ages. Moses (peace be upon him) showed many miracles to pharaoh and to the children of Israel. Plagues, locusts, water turning to blood, his stick becoming a snake, the voice in the burning bush and the parting of the Red Sea are clear miracles for the people of Moses time.
Again, God sent Jesus, the son of Mary (peace be upon him) with clear miracles for the people of his time. Speaking from the cradle while still a new born infant, creating birds from clay, curing the sick, giving sight to the blind and even bringing a dead man back to life, were all clear signs to the people to know Jesus (peace be upon him) was a messenger of God as was Moses before him. Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the last and final messenger of Allah, and he was sent to all of mankind. Allah sent him with a number of miracles, not the least of which was the Quran. The predictions and prophecies of Muhammad (peace be upon him) have come true even in this century and the Quran has been used to convince even scientists of the existence of God.

The Quran is the best of proofs for the existence of God and today over one and half billion people memorize and recite from the exact text, in the exact same language it was revealed in; Arabic. More than 10 million Muslims have completely memorized the entire Quran from cover to cover, and can recite it from memory without looking at it.
No one sees or hears God, not even the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Nor are we able to use our senses to make some kind of contact with Him. However, we are encouraged in Islam to use our senses and our common sense to recognize this entire universe could not possibly come into existence on its own.
Something had to design it all and then put it into motion. This is beyond our ability to do, yet it is something we can understand. We know from the teachings of Muhammad (peace be upon him) the proofs for the existence of God (Allah) are most obvious to us in our everyday surroundings. Anyone with understanding would quickly acknowledge His existence provided they are not so stubborn as to ignore the obvious evidences right in front of us.
We don't have to see an artist to recognize a painting, correct? So, if we see paintings without seeing artists painting them, in the same way, we can believe Allah created everything without having to see Him (or touch, or hear, etc.).

I am thinking of leaving Juggalo life to Islam any tips please welcoming i be another added flock im serious

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

God is the one who has sent down miracles, revelations and messengers to give clear proofs He exists and more important, what we should do once we come to this realization. God has sent prophets and messengers with many proofs throughout the ages for people to be able to clearly see with their own eyes and to be able to use their own senses the miracles and proofs pointing to the fact, God does in fact, exist.

i guess we should then take all the people that say aliens have abducted them at their word and just accept aliens visit us too. Of course they could be delusional. but then delusions aren't exclusive to alien abductions either, are they?

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

Miracles of prophets and messengers of God have come to people through the ages. Moses (peace be upon him) showed many miracles to pharaoh and to the children of Israel. Plagues, locusts, water turning to blood, his stick becoming a snake, the voice in the burning bush and the parting of the Red Sea are clear miracles for the people of Moses time.
Again, God sent Jesus, the son of Mary (peace be upon him) with clear miracles for the people of his time. Speaking from the cradle while still a new born infant, creating birds from clay, curing the sick, giving sight to the blind and even bringing a dead man back to life, were all clear signs to the people to know Jesus (peace be upon him) was a messenger of God as was Moses before him. Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the last and final messenger of Allah, and he was sent to all of mankind. Allah sent him with a number of miracles, not the least of which was the Quran.

Just stories, from a simpler time with no evidence to back it up. Why did the messages via burning bush, angles and profits stop? Maybe if some delusional person seeking "fame" runs up and says he just talked to god back then people just took it as fact. jesus wasn't much more than a evangelist. all his miraculous deeds are handed down by his trained disciples. guess it wouldn't be surprising they embellished the stories some, and that can explain why their stories vary too.

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

. The predictions and prophecies of Muhammad (peace be upon him) have come true even in this century and the Quran has been used to convince even scientists of the existence of God.

Edgar Casey, Nostradamus, Isac Newton, "Mother Shipton" and many other "seers" have made predictions that seem to have come true. now do we take all their predictions to be divine? how many scientist are gonna say prophesies are provable?

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

The Quran is the best of proofs for the existence of God and today over one and half billion people memorize and recite from the exact text, in the exact same language it was revealed in; Arabic. More than 10 million Muslims have completely memorized the entire Quran from cover to cover, and can recite it from memory without looking at it.
No one sees or hears God, not even the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Nor are we able to use our senses to make some kind of contact with Him. However, we are encouraged in Islam to use our senses and our common sense to recognize this entire universe could not possibly come into existence on its own.

How many people have been duped into believing something doesn't add credibility. Many people once believed the earth was flat and at the center of the "universe" despite the fact the knowledge had been available for centuries that that wasn't true.
none of this is proof of anything.

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

Something had to design it all and then put it into motion. This is beyond our ability to do, yet it is something we can understand. We know from the teachings of Muhammad (peace be upon him) the proofs for the existence of God (Allah) are most obvious to us in our everyday surroundings. Anyone with understanding would quickly acknowledge His existence provided they are not so stubborn as to ignore the obvious evidences right in front of us.
We don't have to see an artist to recognize a painting, correct? So, if we see paintings without seeing artists painting them, in the same way, we can believe Allah created everything without having to see Him (or touch, or hear, etc.).

there's no proof of that or that the ability is unattainable even if far off. after all who said if someone created all this it had to be your god... what was wrong with the old ones or advanced aliens... my pet dragon is still very suspect too.

Good to see you post as always DANBUZU.

The Quran unveils the mystery of man, creation and the universe



The Qur’an is the embodiment of Muhammad in words or Muhammad is the embodiment of the Qur’an in belief and conduct




The Qur’an contains at least the principles of all the branches of knowledge either in summary or detail and not even a single piece of the knowledge it contains has ever been contradicted.



“As time passes, the Qur’an grows ever younger.”



The Qur’an addresses and legislates for all in all times





There is no god but God-the Necessarily Existent One, the One, the Single-the necessity of Whose existence in His Oneness the Quran of miraculous exposition decisively proves, which is accepted and sought for by the species of angels, human beings and jinn; all of whose verses are recited in every minute with perfect respect by the tongues of millions of human beings; whose sacred rule in the regions of the earth and the realms of space and on the faces of ages and time; whose enlightened spiritual dominion has prevailed with perfect splendor over half of the globe and a fifth of humankind for fourteen centuries... Likewise, with the consensus of its heavenly and sacred suras, and the agreement of its luminous Divine verses, and the correspondence of its mysteries and lights, and the concord of its truths, and results, it manifestly attests, and is a clear proof of, this same truth.

believing any of that propaganda doesn't make it true either.

I am starting a new one up JUGGALETTE MUSLIMINAH sounds call what you think or should i do Muslim Juggalo4lifey

just rephrasing.......aha dawgfan eh.....whistle...I see....continuing


okay.

If you compare all of Christ Jesus's-the prophesied Immanuel,God with us,the one David called my Lord said unto my Lord,who said I and the Father are one,who always called our God Father,and prayed,Father my name have I given unto them and revealed them your name,keep from the world,and I will sanctify myself so that they may be also sanctified through the truth.

I say Jesus(God is our Salvaltion) has the greatest Glory than any man and angel,and His Words doesn't sound like a mere hayday prophet which you'll find contradicting the quran

As Jesus said

Father,the hour is come;glorify thy Son,that thy Son also may glorify thee;

As thou hast given Him power over all flesh,that He should give Eternal life to as many as thou hast given Him.

And this is life eternal,that they might know thee the only true God,and Jesus Christ,whom thou hast sent.

I have glorified thee on the earth:I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

And Now, o Father,glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest out of the world:thine they were,and thou gavest them me;and they have kept thy word.

Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou has given are of thee

For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me;and they have received them,and have known surely that I came out from thee,and they have believe that thou didst sens me

I pray for them:I pray not for the world,but for them which thou hast given; for they are thine.

And all mine are thine,and thine are mine;and I am glorified in them

And now I'm no more in the world,but these are in the world,and I come to thee. Holy Father,keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me,that they may be one,as we are.

.......
and more of Christ's words along do go against the quran

For the Father himself loveth you,because ye have loved me,and have believed that I came out from God.

I came forth front the Father,and am come into the world:again,I leave the world,and go to the Father.

I thank thee,O Father,Lord of Heaven and Earth,that thou Hastings hid these from the wise and prudent,and Hastings revealed them unto babes:even so,Father;for it seemed good in thy sight.
All things are delivered to me of my Father:and no man knoweth who the Son is but he Father; and who the Father is,but the Son,and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

For The Father loveth The Son,and sheweth Him all things...

That all men should honor the Son,even as they honor the Father.He that honoreth not the Son honoureth not the Father which has sent him

And this is the will of Him that sent me,that everyone which seeth the Son,and believeth on him,may have everlasting life:and I will raise him out at the last day.

Also Jesus the Son of God,said I am the bread of life,the Truth,the way,the life.

quoting out of a made up manipulated book isn't even giving the appearance of trying to make a point. pondering the meaning of made up stories is only speculating on fantasy. any "omni being" wouldn't leave such a confusing mess of a explanation to represent it's will. Knowing your message will be misunderstood do you give it anyway? why then? to test people, is a ridiculous act for a omni to participate in. to find the true believers, is pointless if you give an omni-derived point to your existence then no one would doubt. so what is the evidence that (other than it says so) god even created the bible or any other text? wouldn't they all fit perfectly given their origins form "perfection"? since they don't doesn't that mean they are not from god... more over there is no god due to the fact an omnipowerful being can't be responsible for such an omni-load-of-shit while still calling it's self perfect and if it didn't even create it's own message isn't it more likely it never even existed or created anything.

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

God is the one who has sent down miracles, revelations and messengers to give clear proofs He exists and more important, what we should do once we come to this realization.

And where is this 'proof' you keep rambling about? A babbling messenger proves nothing, neither does an old book of fairy tales.

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

God has sent prophets and messengers with many proofs throughout the ages for people to be able to clearly see with their own eyes and to be able to use their own senses the miracles and proofs pointing to the fact, God does in fact, exist.

Yet all we have is this old book of fairytales again. Where are the prophets and the miracles? Oh, wait, they exist in your head only.

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

Miracles of prophets and messengers of God have come to people through the ages. Moses (peace be upon him) showed many miracles to pharaoh and to the children of Israel. Plagues, locusts, water turning to blood, his stick becoming a snake, the voice in the burning bush and the parting of the Red Sea are clear miracles for the people of Moses time.

Yet he left nothing behind, not a trace of him outside that book of fairytales again.

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

The Quran is the best of proofs for the existence of God

Well, if that's supposed to be your 'proof' we can stop right here - an old book of fairytales proves nothing at all. Got any independent account that confirms any of those 'miracles'? Of course you don't since they didn't happen.

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

and today over one and half billion people memorize and recite from the exact text, in the exact same language it was revealed in; Arabic. More than 10 million Muslims have completely memorized the entire Quran from cover to cover, and can recite it from memory without looking at it.

Which is entirely irrelevant. Lots of people read Harry Potter books and can bore you to tears with quotes. Does that somehow make the stories less fictional?

Originally posted by Juggalo1:

The Quran unveils the mystery of man, creation and the universe

Oh dear, cocoa's playing copy&paste artist again. You can tell by the use of sentences, punctuation and general coherency.

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

and today over one and half billion people memorize and recite from the exact text, in the exact same language it was revealed in; Arabic. More than 10 million Muslims have completely memorized the entire Quran from cover to cover, and can recite it from memory without looking at it.

Which is entirely irrelevant. Lots of people read Harry Potter books and can bore you to tears with quotes. Does that somehow make the stories less fictional?

According to some Christians and Muslims, it does.

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by Juggalo1:

The Quran unveils the mystery of man, creation and the universe

Oh dear, cocoa's playing copy&paste artist again. You can tell by the use of sentences, punctuation and general coherency.

I doubt it's cocoa, she was always very clear about her rights as a woman and Sharia Law would not have sat well with her.

Besides, while her posts were unusual in terms of syntax sometimes and she defended a Muslim Point of view, she did so with passion and did not resort to quoting mindless slogans.



@Juggalo1 - what is your opinion of al queda - do they do Allah's work?

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

and today over one and half billion people memorize and recite from the exact text, in the exact same language it was revealed in; Arabic. More than 10 million Muslims have completely memorized the entire Quran from cover to cover, and can recite it from memory without looking at it.

Which is entirely irrelevant. Lots of people read Harry Potter books and can bore you to tears with quotes. Does that somehow make the stories less fictional?

According to some Christians and Muslims, it does.

We better get us some broomsticks then

Originally posted by string:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by Juggalo1:

The Quran unveils the mystery of man, creation and the universe

Oh dear, cocoa's playing copy&paste artist again. You can tell by the use of sentences, punctuation and general coherency.

I doubt it's cocoa, she was always very clear about her rights as a woman and Sharia Law would not have sat well with her.

Besides, while her posts were unusual in terms of syntax sometimes and she defended a Muslim Point of view, she did so with passion and did not resort to quoting mindless slogans.

She did it before, as cocoa_butter and all her later incarnations. And about mindless slogans - remember what she was originally banned for?

Originally posted by Juggalo1:

The Qur’an addresses and legislates for all in all times

Hence the overbearing problem.

People in 2010, in some countries, are being forced to live like it's 7th century Arabia.


On a side note, it is a tad amusing that there are now competing religions posting in this thread.
Tony preaching away at what he has been taught to think and Juggalo1 preaching away at what it/he/she has apparently embraced of late.

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

God is the one who has sent down miracles, revelations and messengers to give clear proofs He exists and more important, what we should do once we come to this realization. God has sent prophets and messengers with many proofs throughout the ages for people to be able to clearly see with their own eyes and to be able to use their own senses the miracles and proofs pointing to the fact, God does in fact, exist.
Miracles of prophets and messengers of God have come to people through the ages. Moses (peace be upon him) showed many miracles to pharaoh and to the children of Israel. Plagues, locusts, water turning to blood, his stick becoming a snake, the voice in the burning bush and the parting of the Red Sea are clear miracles for the people of Moses time.
Again, God sent Jesus, the son of Mary (peace be upon him) with clear miracles for the people of his time. Speaking from the cradle while still a new born infant, creating birds from clay, curing the sick, giving sight to the blind and even bringing a dead man back to life, were all clear signs to the people to know Jesus (peace be upon him) was a messenger of God as was Moses before him. Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the last and final messenger of Allah, and he was sent to all of mankind. Allah sent him with a number of miracles, not the least of which was the Quran. The predictions and prophecies of Muhammad (peace be upon him) have come true even in this century and the Quran has been used to convince even scientists of the existence of God.

The Quran is the best of proofs for the existence of God and today over one and half billion people memorize and recite from the exact text, in the exact same language it was revealed in; Arabic. More than 10 million Muslims have completely memorized the entire Quran from cover to cover, and can recite it from memory without looking at it.
No one sees or hears God, not even the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Nor are we able to use our senses to make some kind of contact with Him. However, we are encouraged in Islam to use our senses and our common sense to recognize this entire universe could not possibly come into existence on its own.
Something had to design it all and then put it into motion. This is beyond our ability to do, yet it is something we can understand. We know from the teachings of Muhammad (peace be upon him) the proofs for the existence of God (Allah) are most obvious to us in our everyday surroundings. Anyone with understanding would quickly acknowledge His existence provided they are not so stubborn as to ignore the obvious evidences right in front of us.
We don't have to see an artist to recognize a painting, correct? So, if we see paintings without seeing artists painting them, in the same way, we can believe Allah created everything without having to see Him (or touch, or hear, etc.).

What an excellent copy and paste job, Danbuzu.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

On a side note, it is a tad amusing that there are now competing religions posting in this thread.

Only two religions and both abrahamic, so not much of a competition there. Perhaps some of us should represent some of the others to make things more interesting?

Originally posted by Buddha:

Do not believe in anything because you have heard it.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
Do not believe in anything because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything (simply) because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
But after observation and analysis when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conductive to the good and benefit of one and all then accept it and live up to it.

Originally posted by Buddha:

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.

THATS some scripture I can follow

wow, here i've been a follower of buddha all this time and never knew it.

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

This god?

where and how did you find my unicorn ??!! (s)he/it whas suppose to be hidden!!

Originally posted by Immanis:

Only two religions and both abrahamic, so not much of a competition there.

True....
Still, in all the time I've been here, I've never seen the two preach at the same time in the same thread.

Originally posted by Immanis:

Perhaps some of us should represent some of the others to make things more interesting?

Agreed.

God is a lie and all religion is mind control.

Originally posted by laladarkly:

God is a lie

How did you prove that negative?

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

Originally posted by laladarkly:

God is a lie

How did you prove that negative?

Depends what he's talking about - the biblical god can easily shown to be logically inconsistent, proving that particular example wrong is trivial. Proving that there is no all-powerful entity that doesn't want to be found is a completely different story, but good luck hooking such a hypothetical creature to the old testament.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

Originally posted by laladarkly:

God is a lie

How did you prove that negative?

Is there any proof that he/she/it isn't a lie?

Wait, "knowing" there is a God is based on faith, not facts.

So no, I haven't proven that negative. I just "know" he/she/it is a man made concept originally created to explain the inexplicable. Now that we have science to do that "God" is mostly used as a tool to keep the huddled masses ignorant and therefore more easy to control.

@Macallan, you say that it is shown to be logically inconsistent, but that does not prove it is not there, considering the Bible could easily be a fabrication of the deity.

But hey, whenever I chat in this forum about such things I always learn something new. So...

Originally posted by Macallan:

the biblical god can easily shown to be logically inconsistent

Example?
(Due note, this is a point of inquiry. For I am not trying to debate you, and stop you in your tracks.)

Originally posted by laladarkly:

Is there any proof that he/she/it isn't a lie?

I was not making an assertion of proof.

Originally posted by laladarkly:

Wait, "knowing" there is a God

I never said I know there is a God.

Originally posted by laladarkly:

I just "know" he/she/it is a man made concept

When say "know", do you mean "I think"?

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

@Macallan, you say that it is shown to be logically inconsistent, but that does not prove it is not there, considering the Bible could easily be a fabrication of the deity.

It shows that this particular description can't be right so if there is one it's different.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

But hey, whenever I chat in this forum about such things I always learn something new. So...

Splitting hairs is an art as any theologian will tell you

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

Originally posted by Macallan:

the biblical god can easily shown to be logically inconsistent

Example?
(Due note, this is a point of inquiry. For I am not trying to debate you, and stop you in your tracks.)

Well, read Genesis 1 - the god described there is clearly not omniscient and it's clearly not some sort of spirit that's everywhere.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

Example?
(Due note, this is a point of inquiry. For I am not trying to debate you, and stop you in your tracks.)

How many do you want?

1. Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send
peace, but a sword.
- Matthew 10:34

... all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
- Matthew 26:52

2. For wrath killeth the foolish man...
- Job 5:2

... let not the sun go down on your wrath.
- Ephesians 4:26

3. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, even the Son of man which
is in heaven.
- John 3:13

... and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
- 2 Kings 2:11

4. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
- John 5:31

I am one that bear witness of myself...
- John 8:18
[Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes]

5. A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children...
- Proverbs 13:22

Sell that ye have and give alms...
- Luke 12:33

6. Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord... Wealth and riches
shall be in his house...
- Psalms 112:1-3

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
- Matthew 19:24

7. I and my father are one.
- John 10:30

... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
- John 14:28
[Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes]

8. Thou shalt not kill
- Exodus 20:13

Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his
side... and slay every man his brother...
- Exodus 32:27

9. For by grace are ye saved through faith... not of works.
- Ephesians 2:8-9

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by
faith only.
- James 2:24

10. ... the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall
hear his voice, and come forth...
- John 5:28-29

As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth
down to the grave shall come up no more.
- Job 7:9

11. Honor thy father and mother.
- Exodus 20:12

If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and
wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own
life also, he cannot be my disciple.
- Luke 14:26

12. Lay not up for yourself treasures upon the earth...
- Matthew 6:19

In the house of the righteous is much treasure...
- Proverbs 15:6

13. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.
- Ezekiel 18:20

... I the lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of
the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth
generation.
- Exodus 20:5

*14. Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
- Matthew 5:22

[Jesus said] Ye fools and blind.
- Matthew 23:17

15. With God all things are possible.
- Matthew 29:26

And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of
the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the
valley, because they had chariots of iron.
- Judges 1:19


*= A favorite of mine. Hypocrisy at it's worst.

dawgfan
I say it would be nice if we would chat personally
you just got it all wrong
of all those thing you wrote just the one that says the son bears the iniquity of the father,and the son shouldn't bear iniquity of the father would be one you got right
Ill read about this

but the rest you got them all. wrong

that's why it would be nice to chat along

maybe pm me,or let's do a private research

just keep these list so I can share what I know


about buddah,just me,you guys believed his message when he said don't believe any message

good sense

but is just as regular as watching a movie listening to script writers' own philosophy on morals.
like one of Clint Eastwood's movie's sayings
or Pirate of the Carabians Jack sparrow's sayings

But if you say,'this is different'
then you are praising the teachings of man whose been considered a religion

I was not making an assertion of proof.

I never said I know there is a God.

When say "know", do you mean "I think"?

I was not attacking you, or anyone really, personally. I truly hope that is not the way I came across.

I suppose my tone comes from the fact that while, if one (not necessarily you) says they believe in God it is often left at that. But if one (me, for instance) says they don't believe we are then expected to justify or "prove" our non-belief.

When you asked if I had "proven" the negative that God is a lie I thought that's what you expected me to attempt to do. I can't of course, just as others can't prove that he/she/it isn't a lie. Hence the words knowing and know in quotation marks. Everyone thinks they "know" the truth but someone has to be wrong, right?

While it is entirely possible that that someone could be me isn't it just as possible that it could be the person that is convinced that their God and/or religion is the one and only true one?

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

you just got it all wrong
of all those thing you wrote just the one that says the son bears the iniquity of the father,and the son shouldn't bear iniquity of the father would be one you got right

Oh? How did I get the rest wrong?

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

but the rest you got them all. wrong

Ok, why and how?

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

but is just as regular as watching a movie listening to script writers' own philosophy on morals.
like one of Clint Eastwood's movie's sayings
or Pirate of the Carabians Jack sparrow's sayings

you were on to something here maybe... sounds like religion in general.

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

But if you say,'this is different'
then you are praising the teachings of a delusional man whose been considered-ing a religion
oops looks like you added the wrong words here...

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

dawgfan
I say it would be nice if we would chat personally
you just got it all wrong
of all those thing you wrote just the one that says the son bears the iniquity of the father,and the son shouldn't bear iniquity of the father would be one you got right
Ill read about this

but the rest you got them all. wrong

that's why it would be nice to chat along

maybe pm me,or let's do a private research

just keep these list so I can share what I know

Hmm, lots of yapping and babbling and you-got-it-all-wrong but nothing remotely resembling an actual argument.

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

about buddah,just me,you guys believed his message when he said don't believe any message

And you babble about context in the other thread?
Read the whole thing, not just one line. And then read the whole line. Nowhere does it say don't believe any message ( that would be discordian, not buddhist by the way )
All it says is don't believe stuff for the wrong reasons ( because it's written, because newtonyic says so, etc. ), instead examine the claims carefully and make up your own mind. You should try it some day.

I don't have enough time right now
don't have internet,cable to get it or dish
I wasn't saying a quote but what he said on suggestions about believe not message regardles
which i understood by reading his advice sillogisticaly

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

about buddah,just me,you guys believed his message when he said don't believe any message

Exactly, thats the least I expect from an omnipotent God that created everything: don't believe what others say of me, even if said in my name, look for the truth and you will find me. The schizophrenic control freak of the old testament reeks of insecurity and pettiness a mile away. And notice that Buddha is just a man, not a god of sorts.

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

Ill read about this
but the rest you got them all. wrong
that's why it would be nice to chat along

Don't you see the irony of the two arguments? You need to find excuses and justify the actions of your God to put a resemblance of justice, love and even consistency to his words. Pretty mediocre for a deity.

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

I wasn't saying a quote but what he said on suggestions about believe not message regardles which i understood by reading his advice sillogisticaly

Is pretty straightforward: don't believe anything regardless the source unless it agrees with your own reason and common sense. Here, read it again, this time all the way to the end:

Originally posted by Buddha:

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.

@laladarkly
I agree with your post.

Originally posted by Macallan:

the god described there is clearly not omniscient and it's clearly not some sort of spirit that's everywhere.

Where does it say he is omniscient, maybe omniscient of the present, though.

@dawgfan, I will look at the Old Testament quotes because that is what the discussion between Macallan and myself is about. (It will make it easier on myself, too )

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

6. Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord... Wealth and riches
shall be in his house...
- Psalms 112:1-3

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
- Matthew 19:24

Changes in what is acceptable and what is not change dramatically with Jesus. Even if the two did not change, in Psalms, when they say house they could be referring to heaven.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

8. Thou shalt not kill
- Exodus 20:13

Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his
side... and slay every man his brother...
- Exodus 32:27

There are exceptions to the commandments, lying, telling the Nazis no Jews were present in the house. Killing, War. Adultery, Abraham and the servant. Of course, that is my own thought.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

1. Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send
peace, but a sword.
- Matthew 10:34

... all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
- Matthew 26:52

2. For wrath killeth the foolish man...
- Job 5:2

... let not the sun go down on your wrath.
- Ephesians 4:26

That was a guide to humans, Jesus can do whatever. Parents do have to listen to the framework of rules set for the children, because it was set for children, not them.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

12. Lay not up for yourself treasures upon the earth...
- Matthew 6:19

In the house of the righteous is much treasure...
- Proverbs 15:6

Heaven.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

15. With God all things are possible.
- Matthew 29:26

And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of
the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the
valley, because they had chariots of iron.
- Judges 1:19

Change between the rules (that he adhered) from the Old to New Testament.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

10. ... the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall
hear his voice, and come forth...
- John 5:28-29

As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth
down to the grave shall come up no more.
- Job 7:9

For Job, grave could mean those who go to the state of Hell will not come up.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

9. For by grace are ye saved through faith... not of works.
- Ephesians 2:8-9

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by
faith only.
- James 2:24

Remember, Paul wrote this, he stated his opinions from time to time. There are parts of the Bible I do not accept.

I replied in an extremely sloppy, way if there are some I missed, sorry. lol

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

Changes in what is acceptable and what is not change dramatically with Jesus. Even if the two did not change, in Psalms, when they say house they could be referring to heaven.

It is highly doubtful they were speaking of heaven, but I concur that it is a possibility.
It does remain a contradiction though. It's saying " Serve me and you may get a reward" and then it goes to say that "Those who have gotten a reward (riches) stand no chance at heaven". That's not even mentioning the huge contradiction between the whole free will vs predestination argument.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

There are exceptions to the commandments, lying, telling the Nazis no Jews were present in the house. Killing, War. Adultery, Abraham and the servant. Of course, that is my own thought.

An interesting thought, but why did YHWH allow his "chosen" people to suffer so greatly in the first place? Did his amusment from wiping out civilizations in the OT run out or something? It' kind of bad when the ringleader of the whole religion commits such blatant hypocrisy.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

That was a guide to humans, Jesus can do whatever.

Why? He was a man, was he not? Or are you saying he was no man, and was a god-man? Then, if he was a god-man, he could not die, right?
But yet it is said that he died, which obviously he cannot do being as how we have inadvertently arrived at the conclusion that Jesus was a god-man.
Also, by that those writings, Jesus should have died as a result of being stabbed by a sword. (Not mentioning the fact that we are still at the conclusion that god-men cannot die.) After all, it is his user manual anyway.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

Change between the rules (that he adhered) from the Old to New Testament.

Nonsense.
The logic put forth by christians is that YHWH is Jesus and Jesus is YHWH. It is also written that YHWH (and his hippy-half, JC) are unchanging and eternal, so this "change" you assert is impossible.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

For Job, grave could mean those who go to the state of Hell will not come up.

Nonsense again.
So basically what you are stating is that YHWH did his act in the OT, and after he got done with his misogyny, homophobia, racism, and genocide, he got bored and wanted to send his other half who wasn't quite so vindictive to change what he, being eternal and unchanging, has already set or predestined?

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

There are parts of the Bible I do not accept.

Like the entire OT?

DanielHendrycks]@laladarkly
I agree with your post.


Thank you. Even if you disagreed it's still quite refreshing to be able to discuss this with people who aren't automatically on the defensive.

I haven't come to my non-belief lightly. When I finally began to question what I'd always been taught the "answers" I found left much to be desired. The more I read, see, and experience the less I can just accept the "truth" as it's been presented to me. Yet I can respect those that have come to their belief in God/The Bible in a similar way.

I can't respect, however, those that believe what that do simply because they have been taught to and refuse to question any part of it. And they don't want anyone else to question it either.

Everyone has their own truth that allows them to get through this life so please don't insist that you know something is true when you simply cannot. We humans may never know the ultimate truth about how or why we are here. Can't we just enjoy the quest for these answers instead of accusing each other of looking in the wrong places?

Originally posted by laladarkly:

Can't we just enjoy the quest for these answers instead of accusing each other of looking in the wrong places?

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? " -Douglas Adams

I love Douglas Adams. Thanks for giving me another quote to add to my growing collection.

all i can say you guys got it all wrong
and all I can say is just believe in Christ's words and it all come clearer.
I can see where each saying belongs to.

is like saying God is omnipresent,and yet Moses saw The Lord's body


I thought I heard that mathematically,a fact,that dimensions higher than 3D objects,the 4D vision can grasp all 3D dimensions to the full,and a 4D entity writing or drawing wouldn't be 'supposely in 2D slightly touching it' in 2D(flat plane) but actually drawing 3D,a tangeable drawing.
also that 4D is got connections with time,where 4D objects you could considered timeless or eternal
and our three dimensional world is just shadows of greater dimensions(thus hypercubes,thesarons)

wouldn't you say that seems God is Eternal,timeless,the Head of Time,Ancient of days,the Creator and architech,lives in the highest realm,and has a perfect body that we have a image and likeness of, and that we can't grasp God,hence God's worthy truthfull glory submits the rest unto Him,because He is more than what we can grasp
and it alsi say that when judgment day comes,when God is in the white throne,it says the heaven and earth flee from the presence if His face and that there wasn't a place found for them
or when God trans through into this world,doesn't it say that elements burn
so God being omnipresent and steping in this world doesn't seem graspable
is just that we don't understand well enough God's perfection,or what is the perfection of God's body if He is everywhere.

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

all i can say you guys got it all wrong
and all I can say is just believe in Christ's words and it all come clearer.

Rubbish. Your lack of an arguing position is amusing.
Yelling (or in this case, typing) "Y'all have it all wrong!!!" is hardly a stance to take.

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

is like saying God is omnipresent,and yet Moses saw The Lord's body

YHWH's description is hardly omnipresent.Food for thought for ya, Tony:
"Can omniscient God ,who knows the future, find the omnipotence to change his future mind?"
It hasn't escaped logicians and myself that omniscience and omnipotence are mutually incompatible. If your god YHWH is omniscient, he must already know how he is going to intervene to change the course of history using his omnipotence. But that means he can't change his mind about his intervention, which means that he is not omnipotent.
(Yeah, I figured I might as well head off your omnipotent argument before it got started. )

@NewTonylc

I respect your efforts to explain but I fear you'll just end up chasing your existential tail.

Have you considered that the reason the God concept is so hard to grasp by some is be because there really isn't anything to hold on to?

I don't know but you've been getting me wrong,I wasn't yelling.

the reason we can't grasp from being omnipresent,omniscient,everything is preordained,or how really Time has been circumscribed or intertwined is because we don't know,but I believe regressive progressive science is getting there,as long as the algorithms are being refined
and it will be awesome.
that's why I gave you a research to link and prove each statement in God"s word mathematically,scientifically,
where you seem it contradicts.
also the soul is important. how is a soul made.
just remember your thesis got to connect hope,faith,believe,trust,love,humility,patience,the will,thoughts, feelings,the soul and senses,the soul complexed with the body,free will,bound bias will,wrath,defenses,morals,purity,wrath,jelousy,opinions,advice,teaching,etc...
I know you can,just try sometimes
with our known knowledge.
scientists have tried and say,'is this what the soul is?'
also since if we make sofware with electrons,electronic gates,if our hardware shatters,its a bye bye for the sofware
but if we have timeless(eternal),not an earthly format(not these world's limited laws and dimensions),where we get our welling life from God,our soul is made,then we don't disintigrate and shatter and no longer exist(our earthly interpretation of death),even if a nuclear or theorized antimatter bomb disintegrate us,our spirit and soul lives.
don't we say the higher the frequency the less objects are bound by massive matter
doesn't the theory of sofware slantly presents a virtual conveying in our perception and it is brought like that from the beginning
what about for 3D virtualism,or 4D virtualism,where what's been portrayed and conveyed have welling life
where the Lord calls his power pearls,pills which are physical but are spiritual objects for the good of us
but we don't believe in fancy spiritual worlds
I'm not saying you can't make a soul,if you tried how it is made you'll find God wasn't wrong

you got to say,okay these Scriptures contradicts,but something is wrong,there's got to be a way,and you look for the other ones.
if you are a mathmatecian,a physicist,and a computer scientist,both computer ingineerer and a programmer you can find these.

but we do can mess or treat our body and the status of soul with medicines

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

the reason we can't grasp from being omnipresent,omniscient,everything is preordained,or how really Time has been circumscribed or intertwined is because we don't know,but I believe regressive progressive science is getting there,as long as the algorithms are being refined
and it will be awesome.
that's why I gave you a research to link and prove each statement in God"s word mathematically,scientifically,
where you seem it contradicts.
also the soul is important. how is a soul made.
just remember your thesis got to connect hope,faith,believe,trust,love,humility,patience,the will,thoughts, feelings,the soul and senses,the soul complexed with the body,free will,bound bias....

You are stonewalling. Why must christians always do this when confronted with facts?
For all your typing, it all boils down to about two sentences:
1. "This is god we are talking about and he can do anything, facts and logic be damned."
2. "Even though in my mind I realize that your argument is well-thought out and quite logical, I'll just stick my fingers in my ears (or in this case, close your mind) and hum La la la la la la ....."

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

you got to say,okay these Scriptures contradicts,but something is wrong,there's got to be a way,and you look for the other ones.

More contradictions???

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

all i can say you guys got it all wrong
and all I can say is just believe in Christ's words and it all come clearer.

Thats not an argument, you need to explain exactly why he got it wrong, he will check your claim and if it is sound, he will acknowledge he got it wrong and move forward in the argument. "Because I say so" is only a partially valid argument until kindergarten, so please avoid it in D&D.

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

the reason we can't grasp from being omnipresent,omniscient,everything is preordained,or how really Time has been circumscribed or intertwined is because we don't know,but I believe regressive progressive science is getting there,as long as the algorithms are being refined

Regressive progressive science? That translates to null science aka theology. Aren't you a bit confused here?

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

that's why I gave you a research to link and prove each statement in God"s word mathematically,scientifically,
where you seem it contradicts.

The existence or not of god in mathematics would be an axiom, and as far as I can tell completely useless for the any mathematical discipline. To show you something equivalent, it has the same relevance as the existence of the Loch Ness monster: none, so they ignore the axiom completely because is completely irrelevant for what they do. And that is coming from the guys that can draw a triangle whose inner angles sum 0 degrees and can see transformations in spaces with arbitrary dimensions.

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

also the soul is important. how is a soul made.

Again you are running ahead of yourself. We can't establish the importance of the soul unless we establish it existence. That comes first and so far I never have seen a valid argument for the soul; in the very end all comes to wishful thinking and thats not a valid argument.

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

just remember your thesis got to connect hope,faith,believe,trust,love,humility,patience,the will,thoughts, feelings,the soul and senses,the soul complexed with the body,free will,bound bias will,wrath,defenses,morals,purity,wrath,jelousy,opinions,advice,teaching,etc...

And I can show you how chemical and physical interactions affects all those feelings, meaning that the soul is not something divorced from your brain process and there is no evidence of its survival after the brain dies.

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

if you are a mathmatecian,a physicist,and a computer scientist,both computer ingineerer and a programmer you can find these.

I am, and I'm not aware of such thing.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Like the entire OT?

Up until recently, I did not accept it in it's entirety.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

hat's not even mentioning the huge contradiction between the whole free will vs predestination argument.

That is quite irrelevant.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

It's saying " Serve me and you may get a reward" and then it goes to say that "Those who have gotten a reward (riches) stand no chance at heaven".

Serve me and you may get a reward... in heaven, a holy gift. The second quote you made is tuned by you to make it contradict, if you presuppose it is an earthly gift. It should be: Those that are rich on earth (I assume greedy) have a small chance of getting into heaven.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

It' kind of bad when the ringleader of the whole religion commits such blatant hypocrisy.

From a naturalist view, on what basis can you make that value judgment?

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Or are you saying he was no man, and was a god-man?

He was a hybrid, but you are saying he was either a mortal man or he was all powerful, immortal, etc. His spirit was God but he was human. He could be killed, but his guide was to normal human souls, thanks for catching me on that

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Also, by that those writings, Jesus should have died as a result of being stabbed by a sword.

While he was on the cross. (As you can see, I have not read much lol)

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

It is also written that YHWH (and his hippy-half, JC) are unchanging and eternal, so this "change" you assert is impossible.

They are unchanged, but their rules are not. Please don't spout "nonsense", it makes me feel as if you are attacking me personally.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

has already set or predestined?

I (currently) say God is omniscient of the present, by what verse do you say God is all knowing of everything?

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

So basically what you are stating is that YHWH did his act in the OT, and after he got done with his misogyny, homophobia, racism, and genocide, he got bored and wanted to send his other half who wasn't quite so vindictive to change what he, being eternal and unchanging, has already set or predestined?

That statement is quite incoherent with what the verse was, if you could, please tell me what this "other half" is. Thanks

Originally posted by laladarkly:

I can't respect, however, those that believe what that do simply because they have been taught to and refuse to question any part of it.

Ditto.

never mind
logics be damned
wouldn't think so
Wisdom say I am understanding intelligence,peace,prudence,the right straight way,and God made me before anything and used me at the beginning of foundations
logic,laws,codes,hypertexts,logic gates,contants,algorithms,formulas,trascendant constants,ratios,rational numbers,irrational numbers,odd,even,prime,etc..
God is God,hence God's name God.
and Wisdom is a tool
don't we use technology on everything
why would God crush it,unless you use it for something He doesn't like
also God being tired,it means being tired of the wrong ways of a man that's constantly trampling on God
But tired of power,wouldn't make sense
Also if the situation is different God has considered anoher way and change strategies.
But how is God who is Justice,righteousness,and love together.
God's matters are heavier than ours,He is sitted in His Holy(pressure of God's matter) throne(the term of His place) trascendentantly reighning
In His Holy Wisdom
Do we see God reighning no,but The Father is always constantly speaking to creation,subsisting it

I did say you can mess,tweek,it treat the body and the status of the soul(feelings) with medicines

also scientists have tried making live robots,and when they gotten far they acknowledged the soul

also my advice was for you to start it and prove it bits by bits I know you can,regardless of anxioms,there is a reason

One of my favourite subjects. I am not religious in any way but I have thought about it a lot most religions are run by men and the scriptures are written by men although they are supposed to be gods word.
The best way I found to think about it was like this, If there is a god he would never show himself as that would be the end of the human race, I mean what would be the point of us doing anything if we knew for certain in everlasting life.
The conditions for life on earth to flourish are pretty unique even down to the magnetosphere the ozone layer, The asteroid belt which stops us getting hit by meteorites etc etc. if all that was not enough we have day and night, the seasons, Tides which keep our oceans fresh and vibrant and then a very complicated atmosphere ideal for life to flourish.
Ok it is a very complicated system and I would like to think that some one created it all

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

It is highly doubtful they were speaking of heaven

Why is that?

I believe God does not intervene in this common era. So I would not accept that verse if it were speaking of the physical world.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord... Wealth and riches
shall be in his house...
- Psalms 112:1-3

If they were talking about a person being rich in the physical world, then why would they include "in his house", why wouldn't they just say "Wealth and riches shall be upon him". House sounds like heaven to me, in this context.

Originally posted by DanielHendryck:

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Like the entire OT?

Up until recently, I did not accept it in it's entirety.

Now you do?

Originally posted by DanielHendryck:

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

hat's not even mentioning the huge contradiction between the whole free will vs predestination argument.

That is quite irrelevant.

How is it irrelevant? If you're predestined to mess up then nothing you can do will change that, yet you're being punished for... what, exercising your non-existent free will?

Originally posted by DanielHendryck:

Serve me and you may get a reward... in heaven, a holy gift. The second quote you made is tuned by you to make it contradict, if you presuppose it is an earthly gift. It should be: Those that are rich on earth (I assume greedy) have a small chance of getting into heaven.

Whether you get a reward on earth or in heaven, it's still a contradiction. Why should riches and greed be okay in heaven all of a sudden?

Originally posted by DanielHendryck:

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

It' kind of bad when the ringleader of the whole religion commits such blatant hypocrisy.

From a naturalist view, on what basis can you make that value judgment?

Hypocrisy isn't a value judgment. Usually hypocrisy is bad - now that is a value judgment. Anyway, lying is wrong. You think it would be more or less wrong depending on the existence of a god? I sure hope not.

Originally posted by DanielHendryck:

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

It is also written that YHWH (and his hippy-half, JC) are unchanging and eternal, so this "change" you assert is impossible.

They are unchanged, but their rules are not. Please don't spout "nonsense", it makes me feel as if you are attacking me personally.

Jesus explicitly said he didn't come to change the old rules and I've been slapped with this around my ears by Christians when I suggested the OT was to be ignored almost completely. Also, if the rules changed, then they changed. They must've gotten new insights or something, otherwise they wouldn't change the rules. Alternatively, they're just jerks who indeed didn't change.

Originally posted by DanielHendryck:

I (currently) say God is omniscient of the present, by what verse do you say God is all knowing of everything?

Psalm 139:2-6 (New International Version)

2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.

3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.

4 Before a word is on my tongue <- knowledge about the future, hear, hear
you know it completely, O LORD.

5 You hem me in—behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

Isaiah 40:13-14 (New International Version)

13 Who has understood the mind [a] of the LORD,
or instructed him as his counselor?

14 Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him,
and who taught him the right way?
Who was it that taught him knowledge
or showed him the path of understanding?

Originally posted by DanielHendryck:

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

So basically what you are stating is that YHWH did his act in the OT, and after he got done with his misogyny, homophobia, racism, and genocide, he got bored and wanted to send his other half who wasn't quite so vindictive to change what he, being eternal and unchanging, has already set or predestined?

That statement is quite incoherent with what the verse was, if you could, please tell me what this "other half" is. Thanks

Jesus.

Originally posted by DanielHendryck:

I believe God does not intervene in this common era. So I would not accept that verse if it were speaking of the physical world.

So, you're sort of a deist.

Originally posted by DanielHendryck:

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord... Wealth and riches
shall be in his house...
- Psalms 112:1-3

If they were talking about a person being rich in the physical world, then why would they include "in his house", why wouldn't they just say "Wealth and riches shall be upon him". House sounds like heaven to me, in this context.

The Bible says tons of things where you wonder "why wouldn't they just say X"

At any rate, feel free to explain all these away as well.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

I believe God does not intervene in this common era. So I would not accept that verse if it were speaking of the physical world.

But you believe that he is just, right? Where is the justice in not intervening anymore? The jews in the times of Jesus witnessed the miracles, so they don't needed faith to believe in God. Not doing the same to us and punishing for not believing seems pretty unfair, to said the least.

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

I wasn't saying a quote but what he said on suggestions about believe not message regardles
which i understood by reading his advice sillogisticaly

Could you repeat that in english please?

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

Originally posted by Macallan:

the god described there is clearly not omniscient and it's clearly not some sort of spirit that's everywhere.

Where does it say he is omniscient, maybe omniscient of the present, though.

There are plenty of verses which say he sees everything, knows future, present and past etc. - shouldn't be hard to dig them up. They were probably written much later than genesis and that's another problem - the god of the OT evolves from an old man in a garden to a babylonian thunder god that's still kind of anthropomorphic and finally ends up as some sort of omnipresent spirit. He also gets more and more civilized yet he's supposed to be somehow unchanging, eternal etc.

Originally posted by Immanis:

And that is coming from the guys that can draw a triangle whose inner angles sum 0 degrees and can see transformations in spaces with arbitrary dimensions.

Ah, topology
We also have square circles and there is no real difference between a coffee cup and a donut.

Originally posted by Immanis:

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

if you are a mathmatecian,a physicist,and a computer scientist,both computer ingineerer and a programmer you can find these.

I am, and I'm not aware of such thing.

I don't think he knows anything about programming. Or maths, physics etc. for that matter.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

hat's not even mentioning the huge contradiction between the whole free will vs predestination argument.

That is quite irrelevant.

Well, if all your decisions can be determined in advance there is no free will.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

I believe God does not intervene in this common era. So I would not accept that verse if it were speaking of the physical world.

Ah, so you have your beliefs and then cherry-pick the bible to suit them.

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

I believe God does not intervene in this common era. So I would not accept that verse if it were speaking of the physical world.

Ah, so you have your beliefs and then cherry-pick the bible to suit them.

I do think that's a lot better than actually following the Bible (at least in regard to most people), though it's still sticking your head in the sand.

okay on riches
You know the story on the man who asked the Lord 'what to do to obtain eternal life',Jesus said follow the commands,the man said 'i did from childhood',I think the Lord was glad
but Jesus said if you want to be perfect 'leave your comforts give what you gave away and come follow me'
I think the man tutned away
'What is the man if he gained the world but didn't grow rich with God?'
'dont make riches on the world where things eat of it,but rather make riches in heaven's
there are houses in Heaven,streets,people,gold,trees,grass,air,flowers,etc....
but in heaven nothing is eaten by crits,God's perfect will is there.
that's why nothing unholy enters it.

there is being rich with God,and God giving you riches
two seperate things but true
Jesus said,seek ye the kingdom of God first and all of these things shall be added unto you
your desires,wishes,likings being fulfilled

Jesus was referring to not be covetous,idolotrying,impentience,given unto this things way out of hand
That's why he mentioned to love your life than the world
to care for your soul
and he said the manner of degree how given one is on riches,that he mentions how hard it is for a rich man to enter life,imposible for man,but for God there is nothing imposible,also that God has sent His Son now things that couldn't be done through sheep's and goats

you say why doesn't God do it if He's all powerful,because God does in righteousness,if there isn't a way then there isn't, but since there is,God provides
if a man does find ways to control the human morals to a full extension,there is not other sin than this callled witchcraft,sorcery,etc...
science is good when it goes clean,but it can get twisted

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

I believe God does not intervene in this common era. So I would not accept that verse if it were speaking of the physical world.

Ah, so you have your beliefs and then cherry-pick the bible to suit them.

I've found that most people who say they believe in the bible do exactly that. The Good Book is subject to so many interpretations that it's no wonder it keeps even the most well-intentioned folks at each others throats even on the most trivial of details.

How can something that causes so much anger and plain old hatred be the standard by which we all should live?

As for God intervening when he feels like it...I guess if you're good enough, smart enough and doggone it He likes you, your prayers get answered. If not then, oh well, it was God's will. Sounds like quite a crap shoot, emphasis on the crap, to me.

Originally posted by laladarkly:

As for God intervening when he feels like it...I guess if you're good enough, smart enough and doggone it He likes you, your prayers get answered.

god helps he who help himself. basically means do it yourself and give god the credit.

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

science is good when it goes clean,but it can get twisted

this is the problem with the bible and newtoyic's little story only shows that it conditions you to think a certain way. closing your mind to free thinking and practice turning hypocritical judgment on others. of course then there is a whole line of stories designed to make the believer think that that isn't what they are doing as long as it's against those people. blah!

it's not out of the way to ask to prove the validity of the bibles stories before using them as proof... anyone would ask me to do the same if i sited a questionable source.

sorry...when a cop tells you that you are being too prudent, what does that mean?

Originally posted by Macallan:

Ah, topology
We also have square circles and there is no real difference between a coffee cup and a donut.

Nope, I was thinking on hyperbolic geometry, in particular in a ideal hyperbolic triangle. Topology is only for the true initiate and mentioning its dark arcane in a public forum is akin to teaching the parable of the mustard seed in the midst of the Sahara.

Originally posted by ensbb3:

it's not out of the way to ask to prove the validity of the bibles stories before using them as proof... anyone would ask me to do the same if i sited a questionable source.

I totally agree. But one may as well try to validate Grimm's fairy tales to prove that trolls live under bridges.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

I believe God does not intervene in this common era. So I would not accept that verse if it were speaking of the physical world.

Ah, so you have your beliefs and then cherry-pick the bible to suit them.

I do think that's a lot better than actually following the Bible (at least in regard to most people), though it's still sticking your head in the sand.

Yeah, actually following it could end rather nasty.

Originally posted by ensbb3:

Originally posted by laladarkly:

As for God intervening when he feels like it...I guess if you're good enough, smart enough and doggone it He likes you, your prayers get answered.

god helps he who help himself. basically means do it yourself and give god the credit.

Exactly. If things go well it's Praise Gawd, if not it's your own fault.

Originally posted by ensbb3:

it's not out of the way to ask to prove the validity of the bibles stories before using them as proof...

My guess is that most people doing that know little or nothing about the history of the book.

Originally posted by Immanis:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Ah, topology
We also have square circles and there is no real difference between a coffee cup and a donut.

Nope, I was thinking on hyperbolic geometry, in particular in a ideal hyperbolic triangle. Topology is only for the true initiate and mentioning its dark arcane in a public forum is akin to teaching the parable of the mustard seed in the midst of the Sahara.

Well, under the right conditions the sum of a triangle's angles can be pretty much anything
But yeah, it's kind of mathematics' kabbalah, at least to the uninitiated

Originally posted by Macallan:

Well, under the right conditions the sum of a triangle's angles can be pretty much anything

The funny thing is that the geometry in the universe is not euclidean, so those "right conditions" are the rule rather than a exception. Not so funny is the fact that in the topologist hell the stale beer is served in Klein's bottles and the STD girls are all Moebius strippers and only show you their back side

did anyone mention his noodlyness?

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Now you do?

No, but I will not discuss that because I am changing that view rapidly.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.

3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.

4 Before a word is on my tongue <- knowledge about the future, hear, hear
you know it completely, O LORD.

5 You hem me in—behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

They are poems, compiled by people, I do not accept this as a valid book to base one's beliefs.

Originally posted by Macallan:

Well, if all your decisions can be determined in advance there is no free will.

It was irrelevant to what the quote was, he was going on an incoherent (with what was said) rant.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

So, you're sort of a deist.

Yes, I describe myself as a partial-deist. I once was a Deist for a short time (recently). I would never be an Atheist, I have considered agnosticism, nonreligious-ness or a deism, the reason I could not be an atheist is because of it's definition: "‘Atheism’ means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God." http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/ I would then be making a claim that God does not exist, and as James Randi said (I watched this video yesterday), "You cannot prove a negative." (I'll be seeing him at Skepticon, when I go )

Originally posted by dawgfan:

and after he got done with his misogyny, homophobia, racism, and genocide

I see you like Dawkins, I do, too. But not in theology or philosophy.

Originally posted by dawgfan:

So basically what you are stating is that YHWH did his act in the OT, and after he got done with his misogyny, homophobia, racism, and genocide, he got bored and wanted to send his other half who wasn't quite so vindictive to change what he, being eternal and unchanging, has already set or predestined?

(Thank you, Frenzie) I never said he got bored, he is unchanging, like you said. I guess the main question is: "is this what you think?" I, of course do not accept this, I do not think he sent Jesus because he was bored, or something silly like that.

Originally posted by laladarkly:

As for God intervening when he feels like it...I guess if you're good enough, smart enough and doggone it He likes you, your prayers get answered. If not then, oh well, it was God's will. Sounds like quite a crap shoot, emphasis on the crap, to me.

No, I do not think he intervines to anyone whom(?) is holy, the last intervention was the time of Jesus, the rest: superstition.

Originally posted by Macallan:

Ah, so you have your beliefs and then cherry-pick the bible to suit them.

No, I cherry-picking I do is going on now, If I stumble upon something that I find good enough to keep, I will keep it, and change my beliefs to be around it.

Originally posted by Macallan:

Well, if all your decisions can be determined in advance there is no free will.

Of course, but I do not see something in the Bible said by God that he is omniscient of the future. Remember, when Avola was active? I thought he did know the future, and he showed me how pants-on-head re-tarted I was.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

though it's still sticking your head in the sand.

Originally posted by Macallan:

There are plenty of verses which say he sees everything, knows future, present and past etc. - shouldn't be hard to dig them up.

I will Google it

Originally posted by Immanis:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Well, under the right conditions the sum of a triangle's angles can be pretty much anything

The funny thing is that the geometry in the universe is not euclidean, so those "right conditions" are the rule rather than a exception. Not so funny is the fact that in the topologist hell the stale beer is served in Klein's bottles and the STD girls are all Moebius strippers and only show you their back side

Moebius strippers have only back sides
Even worse is the Cantor pizza they have there - an infinite number of toppings which cover nothing.

Originally posted by DanielHendryck:

I would never be an Atheist

Never say never. It's not a choice, really.

Originally posted by DanielHendryck:

I have considered agnosticism, nonreligious-ness or a deism, the reason I could not be an atheist is because of it's definition: "‘Atheism’ means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God." http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/ I would then be making a claim that God does not exist, and as James Randi said (I watched this video yesterday), "You cannot prove a negative." (I'll be seeing him at Skepticon, when I go )

Three things:

1. Deism, agnosticism, and such are no different from atheism in practice. Whether you live your life assuming there is no god, that you can't know what god wants even if there were one, or like god has little interest in our (part of the) universe anymore, the result is the same. I think that in the case of those who claim to know the will of their god, it's usually suspiciously similar to their own opinions.
2. The deist god is very much a god of the gaps. The more we figure out about how the universe works, the smaller god becomes, unless perhaps if you take the natural world as god. Anyway, few atheists will say there necessarily can't be a god of some sort.
3. If you apply the same reasoning regarding negatives to fairies, Santa Claus, or the Bugatti Veyron EB 16.4 that Volkswagen is going to gift you tomorrow, you'll quickly find that you have no problem denying any of those. In fact, if you don't have a Bugatti Veyron EB 16.4 the day after tomorrow, you'll have proven a negative. The problem with proving the negative is thus not that you can't do it, but that the nature of the assertion is so vague and untestable (cf. the IPU) that it can't be done. For me there is no difference between gnomes, the IPU, Russel's teapot, and any of the vaguer, more deist-like definitions of god.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

The deist god is very much a god of the gaps. The more we figure out about how the universe works, the smaller god becomes

But then there would be no meaning to your life, it would be absurd without a God.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Deism, agnosticism, and such are no different from atheism in practice.

I am just saying I would not be one because I would have a burden of evidence against a God.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

but that the nature of the assertion is so vague and untestable

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWJTUAezxAI

Originally posted by Daniel:

But then there would be no meaning to your life, it would be absurd without a God.[\QUOTE]
I put this last because you possibly already formed a response to my "life would be absurd", I assume the response was "Serving an evil God is meaningful?" I assume it was this response because I have seen it a few times, e.g. Christopher Hitchens. (<-- Love that guy) The problem with it is: 1. You can't say God is evil, that is subjective if you are a naturalist
2. You are only attacking the idea to make it more minuscule, but in the end your negation would not provide a better answer or even an answer

whether or not a non existent being is evil isn't really the point.

God does not provide meaning to life... that's just were you are looking for it. I find meaning in my life without god just fine.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

The deist god is very much a god of the gaps. The more we figure out about how the universe works, the smaller god becomes

But then there would be no meaning to your life, it would be absurd without a God.

What's even more absurd is to look for a fictional deity to attach meaning to your life instead of doing it yourself.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Deism, agnosticism, and such are no different from atheism in practice.

I am just saying I would not be one because I would have a burden of evidence against a God.

You reject a whole lot of other mythical beings with the same lack of evidence against them. Why do you make an exception?

macallan
don't we live on axioms using the conveying appoach that axioms seek to accomplish,like approaching perfection,slant touch of planes,infinity
isn't limit calculus an example,also any particle/quantum,or atomic physics
we refine our formulas by learning more,though theoretically.
an example is the limit of perfect sides of polygons,the more sides the closer to the 'circle',you can call it theorem,it reaches

be out for a while on d&d

also,true science is science
nothing wrong with science,we use it,we live by it,etc...

But what happens when a man uses science for wrong reasons,example would be bioweapons,terroristic manipulation,evil scientists,etc...

also one version of the Bible, calls the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,the tree of science of good and evil.


also macallan I'm not judging,even if I said God doesn't like sins,and sinners judges it,wasn't judging.
God has provided the wisdom to turn away,His laws,and precepts.
also God has provided the help to love Him,and obey His laws through Jesus.
but had left it to receive it by faith,that is believe Christ and His commands to be saved.
I like math and physics,and since you are a mathmatecian and a physicist,would like to hear your thoughts.

ill stick out for a while.

I'm sorry, New Tonylc, but God and science can't be in the same room together, let alone the same argument because, while science is based on fact and logic, religion is based on faith and fairy tales.

I think of it this way:

Logic is a square peg and religion is a round hole. If you pound at the peg long enough eventually you may wear down the sharp edges a bit to get it at least partway into the hole. But you'll never get it to fit perfectly because it just doesn't belong there.

Basically, no matter how hard you try, it's not possible to apply logic to something as illogical as a person's faith.

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by Juggalo1:

The Quran unveils the mystery of man, creation and the universe

Oh dear, cocoa's playing copy&paste artist again. You can tell by the use of sentences, punctuation and general coherency.

your a copy and paste yourself a broken unicorn with a horn in its head .. did i not tell you i is not a muzzerlin

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

He was a hybrid, but you are saying he was either a mortal man or he was all powerful, immortal, etc. His spirit was God but he was human. He could be killed, but his guide was to normal human souls, thanks for catching me on that

No problem.
Still, you are going to great lengths to maintain even your deistic view, are you not? What you have posted about is ever so convenient.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Jesus.

Exactly.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

No, but I will not discuss that because I am changing that view rapidly.

Best of luck to you on that, whichever way you choose to go.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

It was irrelevant to what the quote was, he was going on an incoherent (with what was said) rant.

I was on no rant and it certainly was not incoherent. What I said was:

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

It's saying " Serve me and you may get a reward" and then it goes to say that "Those who have gotten a reward (riches) stand no chance at heaven". That's not even mentioning the huge contradiction between the whole free will vs predestination argument.

and I was saying it to:

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

15. With God all things are possible.
- Matthew 29:26

And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of
the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the
valley, because they had chariots of iron.
- Judges 1:19

Originally posted by DanielHendtyks:

Changes in what is acceptable and what is not change dramatically with Jesus. Even if the two did not change, in Psalms, when they say house they could be referring to heaven.

So you see, when YHWH says " I can do all things" and when his apparent book specifically states that YHWH was unable to do all things, it is a massive contradiction. It totally blows the whole Omniscience and Omnipresent bit out of the water. That in turn renders the whole free will vs predestination argument totally pointless.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

I would never be an Atheist

Why? Social repercussions? Family dis-ownment?
I have quite enjoyed it all. Everyone assumes everyone in this state is a christian, and I quite enjoy bursting their bubble, and in time their arguments. Heck, I was even able to rid myself of an annoying Great Aunt, who is a big-time Baptist bible-thumper.
We simply think the odds are against a god.
I understand why you wouldn't consider the Atheist label at your age.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

I see you like Dawkins, I do, too. But not in theology or philosophy.

Nonsense. The man is brilliant in his arguments and his labelling of YHWH in the OT is spot on.
Where you think he argues in philosophy is a mystery to me.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

I do not think he sent Jesus because he was bored, or something silly like that.

Alright then, so why did he do what he specifically tells his adherants not to do? Why is it ok for YHWH to commit suicide to himself?
Why did he will (predestination) his little pieces of amusement (Pontious Pilate namely, seeing as how he condemned the hippy-half of YHWH to death) to kill his other half, which is still himself?

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Never say never. It's not a choice, really.

Quite true.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

But then there would be no meaning to your life, it would be absurd without a God.

Excuse me, I have quite a lot of meaning to my life, and I have no deity in it.
It seems absurd now, but let your critical thinking skills continue to develop......
Critical thinking is religion's worst enemy.

Originally posted by DanielHendrycks:

I am just saying I would not be one because I would have a burden of evidence against a God.

Actually no you would not.
In time, you will find that religious people will always try to convert you to their deity at the most random times in your life.
In their attempts to convert you, they assume the existence of a god. You do not, you think that the probability of a god is low. To whom does the burden of proof lie?
Atheism is divided into Weak and Strong Atheism:
http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/atheism.htm

Originally posted by Macallan:

What's even more absurd is to look for a fictional deity to attach meaning to your life instead of doing it yourself.

Quite right.

Originally posted by Macallan:

You reject a whole lot of other mythical beings with the same lack of evidence against them. Why do you make an exception?

Indeed.
Why is Odin not your One True God? Zeus? Mithra? Krishna?

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

also God has provided the help to love Him,and obey His laws through Jesus.

So he provide help to love him by sending himself to help you love himself?
Brilliant logic there.
I think you summed it up quite nicely for yourself earlier:

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

logics be damned

@Daniel: Sorry if I didn't get to all of your responses. There were quite a few that have happened in a day's time and this is a hellaciously long post as it is.

Originally posted by Juggalo1:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by Juggalo1:

The Quran unveils the mystery of man, creation and the universe

Oh dear, cocoa's playing copy&paste artist again. You can tell by the use of sentences, punctuation and general coherency.

your a copy and paste yourself a broken unicorn with a horn in its head .. did i not tell you i is not a muzzerlin

Thanks for proving my point by posting your signature brand of jumbled up nonsense

Originally posted by NewTonyIc:

macallan
don't we live on axioms using the conveying appoach that axioms seek to accomplish,like approaching perfection,slant touch of planes,infinity
isn't limit calculus an example,also any particle/quantum,or atomic physics
we refine our formulas by learning more,though theoretically.
an example is the limit of perfect sides of polygons,the more sides the closer to the 'circle',you can call it theorem,it reaches

You may want to look up what these words mean so you can use them in a way that makes sense.

Originally posted by laladarkly:

Logic is a square peg and religion is a round hole. If you pound at the peg long enough eventually you may wear down the sharp edges a bit to get it at least partway into the hole. But you'll never get it to fit perfectly because it just doesn't belong there.

Actually, a square is some sort of circle. It only depends on how you measure distance.

( Sorry, couldn't resist. Blame Immanis for putting me into maths joke mode )

Originally posted by Macallan:

( Sorry, couldn't resist. Blame Immanis for putting me into maths joke mode )

No worries. And here I thought I was opening myself up for jokes about pounding things into holes. My mind might be too dirty for this thread.

dawgfan
you know Jesus is the Son of God,He's got Gods attributes,and work as One,is the Word and Amen of God,but Christ's spirit is definitely seperate than the Father's
also I didn't say 'logics be damned',I was quoting someone else's words that didn't like logic.
is there logic for axioms....yes,we use it,roundabout and circumscribe them and apply it in close degrees to relate to our world
if you know the Word you shouldn't worry for what people say.
Christ will reign for 1000 year,and the Father will come and judge all,after that God will be with us in the new city,and the Son always be with the Father.
I'm gonna put a Scripture...
And I saw no temple therein:for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.(another discripture of God's body)
And the city had no need of the sun,neither of the moon,to shine in it:for the glory of God did lighten it,and the Lamb is the light thereof.

its one point that relates Christ with the Father.
and another one is,that the Son has authority to forgive sins as the Father.
The words on Jesus show how God is related with the Lord.
He's honored as the Father is honored,He has what the Father has,like the seven spirits of God,and gives free.His loving Spirit.
These is just how what's of God is of Christ,and what's of Christ is of God.
also how Christ and the Father are from the beginning that they are the alpha and the omega.
How God created everything through Him.
if you know these shouldn't fight with people.
Christ is the embodiment of the Father,and the Godhead.
'Who being the brightness of His glory,and the express image of His person,and upholding all things by the word of His power...'
Christ and the Father are one.

what would you call someone with God's fullness and heavyness?

Originally posted by DanielHendryck:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

The deist god is very much a god of the gaps. The more we figure out about how the universe works, the smaller god becomes

But then there would be no meaning to your life, it would be absurd without a God.

I don't feel like my life has no meaning. In fact, I feel that my life has far more meaning than it would have if some god gave me a purpose. A god which is almost certainly fictional, no less. Maybe some people like to be followers. I don't. Also, it sounds a tad offensive if someone claims your life has no meaning.

Originally posted by DanielHendryck:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Deism, agnosticism, and such are no different from atheism in practice.

I am just saying I would not be one because I would have a burden of evidence against a God.

I don't say "there can't be a god." I say "I haven't seen anything that makes the existence of a god the least bit plausible and many gods clearly sprung from ignorance. The only thing that's logically left is a rather disengaged form of god, which in practice makes no difference regardless. Besides, if god is anything like the majority of gods described in human mythologies, I'd spit those gods in the face if they did exist." To return to the Bugatti Veyron EB 16.4, you won't have any burden of proof. I'd have the burden of proof by actually making a Bugatti Veyron EB 16.4 show up in front of your house.

Originally posted by DanielHendryck:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

but that the nature of the assertion is so vague and untestable

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWJTUAezxAI

Okay, so what do you call it when the Bugatti Veyron EB 16.4 doesn't show up at your house? How is it then not proven that Volkswagen hasn't given you a Bugatti Veyron EB 16.4 tomorrow? I suppose your point is that you don't necessarily need to have a super-vague hypothesis in order not to be able to prove it indisputably wrong, but the point remains that your god is by definition unfalsifiable. The flying reindeer example is different in that it's not possible for us now or perhaps ever, but a situation is conceivable where it could be done. It's practically impossible, but not theoretically. Disproving your god is theoretically impossible. I'm not sure how subtle or non-subtle a difference it is, but it's an important difference nonetheless.

Originally posted by DanielHendryck:

I put this last because you possibly already formed a response to my "life would be absurd", I assume the response was "Serving an evil God is meaningful?" I assume it was this response because I have seen it a few times, e.g. Christopher Hitchens. (<-- Love that guy) The problem with it is: 1. You can't say God is evil, that is subjective if you are a naturalist

A. Killing people for trivial reasons is evil. B. God kills people for trivial reasons. A, B => God is evil.

To claim that such reasoning would be any more or less subjective if you believe in some god is absurd. I think morality can certainly be seen as a sort of scientific pragmatism. Of course you need to make some basic assumptions (that people being happy is good and people being unhappy is bad, for example), but the rest follows from trying to apply the golden rule and seeing how that affects things precisely.

Originally posted by DanielHendryck:

2. You are only attacking the idea to make it more minuscule, but in the end your negation would not provide a better answer or even an answer

So? If I turn on the light and someone asks me "how does that work?" and I say "because there's a fairy in there that lit a contained candle" then it seems pretty obvious to me that I'd better just say "I don't know." Having an explanation isn't better than having no explanation.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

[

Originally posted by DanielHendryck:

I put this last because you possibly already formed a response to my "life would be absurd", I assume the response was "Serving an evil God is meaningful?" I assume it was this response because I have seen it a few times, e.g. Christopher Hitchens. (<-- Love that guy) The problem with it is: 1. You can't say God is evil, that is subjective if you are a naturalist

A. Killing people for trivial reasons is evil. B. God kills people for trivial reasons. A, B => God is evil.

To claim that such reasoning would be any more or less subjective if you believe in some god is absurd. I think morality can certainly be seen as a sort of scientific pragmatism. Of course you need to make some basic assumptions (that people being happy is good and people being unhappy is bad, for example), but the rest follows from trying to apply the golden rule and seeing how that affects things precisely.

No need to even go there. Humans are herd animals to some degree, where the survival and well-being of the individual depends on survival and well-being of the group ( these days not much less than 5000 years ago but probably not quite as immediate ). For the group to work there have to be rules - people who harm (members of) the group have to be discouraged or, if that doesn't work, neutralized. Helping each other has to be encouraged and so on. Reasonable definitions of 'good', 'evil' etc. follow from this.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by DanielHendryck:

2. You are only attacking the idea to make it more minuscule, but in the end your negation would not provide a better answer or even an answer

So? If I turn on the light and someone asks me "how does that work?" and I say "because there's a fairy in there that lit a contained candle" then it seems pretty obvious to me that I'd better just say "I don't know." Having an explanation isn't better than having no explanation.

Yeah, that's what I don't get about the religious types - why on earth should a demonstrably useless or nonsensical explanation be favoured over no explanation?

Originally posted by Macallan:

No need to even go there. Humans are herd animals to some degree, where the survival and well-being of the individual depends on survival and well-being of the group ( these days not much less than 5000 years ago but probably not quite as immediate ). For the group to work there have to be rules - people who harm (members of) the group have to be discouraged or, if that doesn't work, neutralized. Helping each other has to be encouraged and so on. Reasonable definitions of 'good', 'evil' etc. follow from this.

Good point. Perhaps it then follows that morals are species-dependent. Ironically, the species jehova sapiens could then have different morals than the species homo sapiens sapiens, which could make the killing of humans alright in a manner similar to how we kill mosquitoes that bite us as a reflex. Of course at this point I'm putting god more as some kind of giant, powerful alien life form than as some kind of perfect spirit, which is more or less unrelated to religious claims.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by Macallan:

No need to even go there. Humans are herd animals to some degree, where the survival and well-being of the individual depends on survival and well-being of the group ( these days not much less than 5000 years ago but probably not quite as immediate ). For the group to work there have to be rules - people who harm (members of) the group have to be discouraged or, if that doesn't work, neutralized. Helping each other has to be encouraged and so on. Reasonable definitions of 'good', 'evil' etc. follow from this.

Good point. Perhaps it then follows that morals are species-dependent.

Probably, I'd expect sentient ants to have a quite different attitude than humans ( much larger group rendering individuals more or less disposable, then there's the queen )

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Ironically, the species jehova sapiens could then have different morals than the species homo sapiens sapiens, which could make the killing of humans alright in a manner similar to how we kill mosquitoes that bite us as a reflex. Of course at this point I'm putting god more as some kind of giant, powerful alien life form than as some kind of perfect spirit, which is more or less unrelated to religious claims.

Well, the claim of 'moral perfection' is dubious at best. On the other hand, if he existed he'd probably be 'perfect' in his own set of morals for lack of competition alone.
Now that gives a whole different meaning to 'allah the most righteous'

Originally posted by Macallan:

Well, the claim of 'moral perfection' is dubious at best. On the other hand, if he existed he'd probably be 'perfect' in his own set of morals for lack of competition alone.
Now that gives a whole different meaning to 'allah the most righteous'

Most righteous and least righteous all in one!