Iraqistan: What's the Local Consensus

Iraqistan: What's the Local Consensus

If you're from a country with troops stationed in the Iraq or Afghanistan, I'd like to get a first hand sense of the level of public opposition to their presence.
.........................................
As an aside, yesterday I met somebody who had three of her children posted in Afghanistan recently! She registered no dismay or opposition. Since I didn't really know her, I was reluctant to pry into her personal life.

We're pulling out, so I suppose there's quite a bit of opposition to it; at least in the sense that PvdA (Labor) hopes to win votes by causing it. Considering the (lack of) stability in the region I don't think that's a good thing.

But that stemmed from a party decision, didn't it? I notice that polling data suggests a split among the public. You're not in country at the moment, are you.

Well yeah, but would they do have done it if they hadn't thought it could win them votes? That said, I don't really know any people who were opposed to the mission in Afghanistan.

As for not being in the country - I guess I haven't been in any Dutch pubs lately, but the subject hardly came up there anyway, although I suppose it would've around the time of the government falling. I'd say it's more a thing for Internet forums (such as this one), blogs, newspapers and the like and my consumption of those is not really different than what it used to be. Plus I'm about as close as one can be, haha. The Dutch border isn't far off.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

We're pulling out, so I suppose there's quite a bit of opposition to it

I wish we were pulling out.
Pulling out is seemingly un-American though. (No pun intended. )

Declare victory and come home.

Originally posted by OnetimePoster:

Declare victory and come home.

We made that one safe for democracy.

Seems to me that the Iraq war debacle instilled a far wider and deeper feeling against the thing than the present Afghanistan foray. I do suspect that many were led to believe this was a more moral affair but increasingly being questioned if in a more moderate way than the mass public marches on Iraq.

Personally i thing we are in danger of being stuck in that Afghan hell hole for a terribly long time and with some basis for saying "the point?". From what I can ascertain and recently German police trainers have expressed the worry is that the 90,000 plus police force is almost a dangerous joke. It is riddled with corruption, people with links to terrorists and many cannot even damn well read or write as well as being trigger happy. They have been fighting each other over there for hundreds of years so I don't see how we are going to change their cave man attitudes. If they want to live in a prehistoric religious nightmare then let them have the choice and we can save our troops our money and accept reality

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,687416,00.html

A functioning police force is seen as a prerequisite for a Western withdrawal from Afghanistan. German trainers, however, paint a disastrous picture of the quality of Afghan security forces. Too many police, they say, can't read or write, can't shoot straight or take bribes.

Yes, pull out! Declare victory! Or are you looking for total annihilation???

The Iraq debacle is very unpopular in the UK. More and more people were wanting to know the truth about the war and why it occurred but now that we have pulled out, the usual apathy is taking it's place.

Most Britons cannot say why we are in Afghanistan and there is a growing belief that we were conned into that war too. The good side is that the lot of our young servicemen and women is now being scrutinized. Sadly, too many have been killed or maimed before this happened.

The longer we stay there the more conflict we will cause. By staying there we are doing more harm than good long term so yes we need to pull out.

Originally posted by Thabotizz:

Or are you looking for total annihilation???

We were actually thinking about invading South Africa next.

I wish we were pulling out.
Unfortunately it won't happen soon. Only very recently our government admitted that our soldiers are at war there.
Till now I thought it was just about humanitarian shooting and bombing exercises.

Originally posted by Krake:

Till now I thought it was just about humanitarian shooting and bombing exercises.

Indeed.
I wonder how they explain away "at war" when a state cannot declare war on an ideology.
(I'm still waiting on the White House to explain that.)

Originally posted by rjhowie:

They have been fighting each other over there for hundreds of years so I don't see how we are going to change their cave man attitudes.

They had almost 200 years of relative autonomy, but somebody always managed to interfere. Even when the Brits tried to "help"in the 18th century, the skeptical Afghans didn't trust them. Now everybody is in the game. Both India and Pakistan have been meddling because of their own problems.

Does anybody support simply pulling out over a period of six months or a year? Of course I realize that's not in anybody's agenda. I think that the UK has experienced more Middle Eastern terrorist attacks than we have, although with fewer deaths. Would getting out of the region improve matters?

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

I wish we were pulling out.

Pulling out is seemingly un-American though.

Well Jaybro the damn place seems to have been built on having constant conflict. They only seem to work together in past times when someone else came in -the British - Russians - American money helping the Taliban and so on. The country is not worth a single one of our great soldiers and we should get out or we will be stuck there for decades. Let them fight amongst themselves it is the only thing they seem consistent at.

As a postcript to Iraq. That country once had a Constitutional Monarchy and just look what happened when they murdered the King and Crown Prince (and the General who was Minister of Defence) and the nuts took over. If a country wants to be a dictatorship or live like prehistoric man then that is up to them and should leave them to their own devices.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

We're pulling out, so I suppose there's quite a bit of opposition to it

I wish we were pulling out.
Pulling out is seemingly un-American though. (No pun intended. )

Afghanus Interruptus.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Well Jaybro the damn place seems to have been built on having constant conflict. They only seem to work together in past times when someone else came in -the British - Russians - American money helping the Taliban and so on. The country is not worth a single one of our great soldiers and we should get out or we will be stuck there for decades. Let them fight amongst themselves it is the only thing they seem consistent at.

The place did okay as part of Persia and part of India during old times. The West screwed it up.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

As a postcript to Iraq. That country once had a Constitutional Monarchy and just look what happened when they murdered the King and Crown Prince (and the General who was Minister of Defence) and the nuts took over. If a country wants to be a dictatorship or live like prehistoric man then that is up to them and should leave them to their own devices.

Except the nuts were again smuggled to power by the West.

***
Local consensus in my location is always against the government, who chose to take part in the wars. But even before the government had decided anything, the consensus was against the wars. Maybe narrowly in case of Afghanistan, but very overwhelmingly so in case of Iraq.

"A 55-percent majority of people who live in rural areas now support the war, up 14 points since the fall. That's the biggest increase in support for the war among major demographic categories. Some 58 percent of city residents and 52 percent of suburbanites oppose the war," says Holland.

And then I read this: "Perhaps most revealing, the poll highlights the public’s disgust at Washington, with the number trusting government at its lowest level in 12 years and with nearly half of Americans favoring the creation of a new political party."

We don't trust you, but go get those Afghan terrorists.

Oh, well, McCain wanted permanent bases in Afghanistan. Who knows? He may yet get his wish.

This is a couple of years old, but you get the idea.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

As a postcript to Iraq. That country once had a Constitutional Monarchy and just look what happened when they murdered the King and Crown Prince (and the General who was Minister of Defence) and the nuts took over. If a country wants to be a dictatorship or live like prehistoric man then that is up to them and should leave them to their own devices.

The secret seems to be in having a monarchy then. No monarchy = nuts. (Don't tell the French)

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Well Jaybro the damn place seems to have been built on having constant conflict. They only seem to work together in past times when someone else came in -the British - Russians - American money helping the Taliban and so on. The country is not worth a single one of our great soldiers and we should get out or we will be stuck there for decades. Let them fight amongst themselves it is the only thing they seem consistent at.

You should research the subject some more. It's almost as if you know nothing of its history, which 'surprises' me....

Originally posted by Jaybro:

If you're from a country with troops stationed in the Iraq or Afghanistan, I'd like to get a first hand sense of the level of public opposition to their presence.

I'm living in a country that made up the Coalition of the Unwilling. I feel discriminated against señor!

Originally posted by garydenness:

Originally posted by Jaybro:

If you're from a country with troops stationed in the Iraq or Afghanistan, I'd like to get a first hand sense of the level of public opposition to their presence.

I'm living in a country that made up the Coalition of the Unwilling. I feel discriminated against señor!

Well, tell them to get in line or we're going to buy even more drugs from their country!

I'm discriminated against, too....and I live here!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Seems to me that the Iraq war debacle instilled a far wider and deeper feeling against the thing than the present Afghanistan foray. I do suspect that many were led to believe this was a more moral affair but increasingly being questioned if in a more moderate way than the mas

Iraq and Afghanistan are quickly becoming non issues, Foreign combat troops will be out of Iraq by August 2010.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

They only seem to work together in past times when someone else came in -the British - Russians - American money helping the Taliban and so on.

This time it is done right. The Russians took the dissenters out back for a bullet in the head. The smart way is to bribe the native Leaders for chump change.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

The country is not worth a single one of our great soldiers and we should get out or we will be stuck there for decades. Let them fight amongst themselves it is the only thing they seem consistent at.

Yes those countries are not worth one single western life. For awhile both Iraq and Afghanistan decided to go and start trouble with other countries. They now understand the rules and will limit themselves to intra country mayhem Allah willing.

Well ersi shows how much you know never mind the know-it-all in Me-hee-co. That midden about the West screwing it up. The place was fighting internally for as long as anyone has known the name Afghanistan. It was great place to be a warrior, clan or want to stay in the dark ages. We didn't create the mayhem it has always been a way of life killing each other and creating permanent poverty. Self infliction is the name of the game..As for that added nonsense from the teacher out in the Central American backwater. You may be king of the hill there but you talk nonsense here. I dare say they think you are wonderful and it has gone to your head a wee bit all those youngsters out there hanging on your words as a clever foreigner. Your opinion when it gets round to be such and not just a put down would be more acceptable if you were not so far up yourself. Do get one of those bit sombreros and keep the sun off you!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

You may be king of the hill there but you talk nonsense here. I dare say they think you are wonderful and it has gone to your head a wee bit all those youngsters out there hanging on your words as a clever foreigner. Your opinion when it gets round to be such and not just a put down would be more acceptable if you were not so far up yourself. Do get one of those bit sombreros and keep the sun off you!

Do wipe the froth from your mouth before going out this evening Mr Howie

Originally posted by garydenness:

Do wipe the froth from your mouth before going out this evening Mr Howie

Sorry, but that was funny, Mr Howie. I can't resist a good joke.

Originally posted by grysmn:

Allah willing.

The Arabic word for that is inshallah.

No, it's not. Two words. Insh Allah

Originally posted by Belfrager:

No, it's not. Two words. Insh Allah

A Muslim (Cocoa_butter) told me that either way is acceptable. (Inshallah, Insh Allah,though your way is perfectly acceptable as well)
Edit: Wiki concurs as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inshallah_(disambiguation)

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

A Muslim (Cocoa_butter) told me that either way is acceptable. (Inshallah, Insh Allah,though your way is perfectly acceptable as well)

Edit: Wiki concurs as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inshallah_(disambiguation)

Allah means God. You know that.
Insh means It will be.
Insh Allah means It will be Allah. In erudite languages as this one, it's used as "It will be Allah's desire".
You can use it as Insh thedawgfan.
Ok, you want to insist that saying Inshthedawgfan it's correct.
As far as I know they use something as Insh'Allah. As so many laguages uses.

I don't give a damn for your references. Either "a Muslim", Wikipedia, or your ignorance.
I've told you already. Learn instead of keeping trying to show yourself as a smart one. I also don't like to get advices from others but it's the best thing I can say to an intelligent person.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

A Muslim (Cocoa_butter) told me that either way is acceptable. (Inshallah, Insh Allah,though your way is perfectly acceptable as well)

Edit: Wiki concurs as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inshallah_(disambiguation)

Allah means God. You know that.
Insh means It will be.
Insh Allah means It will be Allah. In erudite languages as this one, it's used as "It will be Allah's desire".
You can use it as Insh thedawgfan.
Ok, you want to insist that saying Inshthedawgfan it's correct.
As far as I know they use something as Insh'Allah. As so many laguages uses.

I don't give a damn for your references. Either "a Muslim", Wikipedia, or your ignorance.
I've told you already. Learn instead of keeping trying to show yourself as a smart one. I also don't like to get advices from others but it's the best thing I can say to an intelligent person.

Ah, another argument from Belfrager says so, as usual without any support for anything and handwaving instead of arguments.
Please take your own advice and learn something, you might look like a smart one some day.

Originally posted by Macallan:

Ah, another argument from Belfrager says so, as usual without any support for anything and handwaving instead of arguments.

Please take your own advice and learn something, you might look like a smart one some day.

Not some day. I'm already one.
Only the Germans and their cultural orbit aren't. Everyone knows that and with scientific support.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

I don't give a damn for your references.

Yeah, facts to tend to piss people off.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Either "a Muslim", Wikipedia, or your ignorance.

Yep, Muslims who speak the language are definitely not a good reference.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

I've told you already.

Yes, it was ever so kind of you to post that.
Why you are getting your knickers in a twist over me agreeing with you and pointing out that it is also used as inshallah is a mystery...
Let's look at the phrase and also compare what you have posted and what I have posted thus far:

Originally posted by grysmn:

Allah willing

Originally posted by Belfrager:

No, it's not. Two words. Insh Allah

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

The Arabic word for that is inshallah.

I then proceeded to post a link backing up my claims. You obviously couldn't be arsed to do so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insha%27Allah (Yours)
"In šāʾ Allāh (إن شاء الله) is an Arabic term to indicate hope for an aforementioned event to occur in the future. The phrase translates into English as "God willing" or "If it is God's will"
Now let's look at what I posted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inshallah_(disambiguation)
"The word Inshallah, also spelt in various other ways, ("Inshalla"; "Inshala"; "Inshaa'Allaah"), is a transliteration of the Arabic phrase إن شاء الله, "God willing"."
As you can see, both of us are right and wrong at the same time.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Learn instead of keeping trying to show yourself as a smart one.

Yes General Papish Secretary Belfrager!!!!! *salutes* ( )
I'm always learning. I've learned quite a lot from you in particular. I hope to learn more.
(My favourite lesson so far has been your q.e.d. explanation and subsequently, not admitting Macallan was right.)

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Ah, another argument from Belfrager says so, as usual without any support for anything and handwaving instead of arguments.

Please take your own advice and learn something, you might look like a smart one some day.

Not some day. I'm already one.

Prove it

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Only the Germans and their cultural orbit aren't. Everyone knows that and with scientific support.

Really. Now please show us this scientific support you just pulled out of your arse ( like much of the other stuff you post here ). I'm not holding my breath. Or maybe I should, considering where your response is going to come from

Na na na
Handwaving, nothing more.
Anny support.
.....................................
My dear friend ( and also the other friend of yours), unlike you, I belong to a Country where Islam heritage it's everywhere.
Unlike your (both) ignorance, the first thing we learn at school it about Islam Civilization.
Unlike you (both) I have Islamic Countries just outside my frontiers.
Besides calling me Papish Secretary do you have (both) something to say? Nope.. I don't think so.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Na na na
Handwaving, nothing more.
Anny support.

Please do yourself a favour - get a dictionary and look up terms you evidently don't understand.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

My dear friend ( and also the other friend of yours), unlike you, I belong to a Country where Islam heritage it's everywhere.
Unlike your (both) ignorance, the first thing we learn at school it about Islam Civilization.
Unlike you (both) I have Islamic Countries just outside my frontiers.

And that makes you the sole authority on arabic transliteration and colloquial use, enough to handwave real life examples out of the way?

Originally posted by Macallan:

Please do yourself a favour - get a dictionary and look up terms you evidently don't understand.

Originally posted by Macallan:

And that makes you the sole authority on arabic transliteration and colloquial use, enough to handwave real life examples out of the way? " width="17" height="22">

Nope. It's more than enough to show the value of arabic specialists made in wikipedia.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Originally posted by Macallan:

And that makes you the sole authority on arabic transliteration and colloquial use, enough to handwave real life examples out of the way? " width="17" height="22">

Nope. It's more than enough to show the value of arabic specialists made in wikipedia.

Well, then why don't you go ahead and fix the article?
Or is there another conspiracy running a campaign against your authority on arabic hiding in wikipedia?

Oh, btw. I used live in the middle of a mostly muslim community, and I bet you're not going to like the way they transliterate arabic

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Unlike your (both) ignorance, the first thing we learn at school it about Islam Civilization.

And after May 5th, I will have taken 2 college level courses on it.
I've already learned it's history in great detail (from Islamic calender 570- 1100's) and now am finishing up on it's latter (from our present calender 1700-present) history and tradition.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Unlike you (both) I have Islamic Countries just outside my frontiers.

Fair enough.
Still, you have amply demonstrated that your Latin is lacking (strangely enough, seeing as how you are a Catholic) and that you cannot stand that we are both right on this particular issue. You don't like Wiki, fine, I'll provide other sources.
(You see, I argue with facts and present a case with proof to back up what I post)
http://www.islamic-dictionary.com/index.php?word=inshallah
http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/key_term.htm#INSHA

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Fair enough.

In regard to you, maybe. In regard to Macallan, I don't think so. I lived in the middle of the Muslim community of Utrecht last year and from what Macallan posted, he did something similar in Germany. I believe they mostly write it as insha'Allah or ensha'Allah, but sometimes also with a space or as one. I don't have any sources for that though. At any rate they're three words, so one may as well get their panties up in a bunch about writing "insha" as one word.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

At any rate they're three words, so one may as well get their panties up in a bunch about writing "insha" as one word.

Exactly. The transliterations I've seen in actual use by actual muslims either use three words to preserve the arabic spelling to some degree or one word to match the pronunciation, sometimes with an apostrophe marking the stop but mostly without.

( now let's find a muslim to lecture Belfrager on church latin )

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

And after May 5th, I will have taken 2 college level courses on it.

I've already learned it's history in great detail (from Islamic calender 570- 1100's) and now am finishing up on it's latter (from our present calender 1700-present) history and tradition.

I don't have the minimum doubt about it.

Originally posted by Macallan:

( now let's find a muslim to lecture Belfrager on church latin )

Ok.

to y'all, particularly our Mississippi Baptist friend.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Allah means God. You know that.

Actually it varies by region and by period. Presently there is a movement by Christians in areas under Muslim control to associate Allah with the generic term for GOD. You can't be convicted in a Shari'a court for praying to "Allah". Jehovah or Yahweh is different from Allah or Baal

Origionally Allah was the moon god who had three daughters, "... At the time of Muhammad, the Ka'abah was OFFICIALLY DEDICATED to the god Hubal, a deity who had been imported into Arabia from the Nabateans in what is now Jordan. "Among the gods worshiped by the Quraysh, the greatest was Hubal ... Quaraysh is the clan into which muhammad was born.
"Khuza 'ah thus shared the guilt of Jurhum. They were also to blame in other respects: a chieftain of theirs, on his way back from a journey to SYRIA, had asked the MOABITES to give him ONE OF THEIR IDOLS. They gave him HUBAL, which he brought back to the Sanctuary, setting it up within the Ka'bah itself; and it became THE CHIEF IDOL OF MECCA."
In other words Allah is Baal.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

I don't have the minimum doubt about it.

Originally posted by Jaybro:

to y'all, particularly our Mississippi Baptist friend.

I can never understand why a Muslim would refuse to be open about his beliefs and pretend to be something else. I am sort of suspecting that we are dealing with a jail house convert to Islam rather than a college student. And again there are college extension courses taught to convicts in prison, that is when they are not out on the chain gang.

Originally posted by grysmn:

I can never understand why a Muslim would refuse to be open about his beliefs and pretend to be something else. I am sort of suspecting that we are dealing with a jail house convert to Islam rather than a college student.

He's not a Muslim of course, but....oh wait. You're just being silly!

Sorry for interrupting....do carry on.

Originally posted by grysmn:

Origionally Allah was the moon god who had three daughters

How many more times are you going to regurgitate this nonsense?

Originally posted by grysmn:

In other words Allah is Baal.

Baal means Lord. In other words, Jesus is Baal. Does that make you a muslim?

(As Supreme Pontiff of D&D, it is my duty to respond in Latin from hence forth.)

Originally posted by grysmn:

I am sort of suspecting that we are dealing with a jail house convert to Islam rather than a college student. And again there are college extension courses taught to convicts in prison, that is when they are not out on the chain gang.

Ut usitas , vos es res ridiculum. Qua in terra operor vos sumo vestri runco? (Latin)

Originally posted by grysmn:

I can never understand why a Muslim would refuse to be open about his beliefs and pretend to be something else.

EGO sum haud Muslim. EGO iustus contingo have magis scientia super lemma quam vos operor quod is pisses vos off.

Originally posted by garydenness:

He's not a Muslim of course, but....oh wait. You're just being silly!

Ut usitas.
(As usual.)

Originally posted by Jaybro:

to y'all, particularly our Mississippi Baptist friend.

:rofl:
Pacis exsisto super vos meus Yankee amicus.

Originally posted by Macallan:

Baal means Lord. In other words, Jesus is Baal. Does that make you a muslim?

No it only makes you a Muslim. Congratulation on your coming out!

Originally posted by grysmn:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Baal means Lord. In other words, Jesus is Baal. Does that make you a muslim?

No it only makes you a Muslim. Congratulation on your coming out!

Please get a dictionary and look up words you don't understand.

Would that make atheists Baal busters?

Now you got this into my head http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4uxIo4t7xM

I ain't afraid of no Baal.