Bride price..

Bride price..

Honestly,i dont know about europe,or the rest of the continents but in africa it's still very strong part of our culture for a man to pay bride price(dowry) before marrying a woman.
In some cases of violance btn married couples in africa,when a man is asked why he beat his wife up,he says "he's got the right to do watever he pleases,after all he paid for her".I'll give example of my tribe which is "Sukuma" it's one of the big tribe in my country Tanzania, in this tribe one has to pay bride price not with money but with real standing cows e.g 50cows(atleast nowdays one can use money)when a woman is brown,u pay even more cows.
Here comes the question..
Is it necessary for african men to countinue paying bride price,(dowry)?if ur answer is yes or no.pls explain,why?
I need ur views,pls.

NB:Bride price has existed for generations in africa,it's our culture and a symbol of appreciation and respect to the female's parents.But it's not there to mean the woman has been sold.

It's a fair question browneyes. Dowry's existed in Britain for many years, and still do to some extent though it's not a formal contract anymore.
At one time, a man's wife was part of his chattel, women were not treat as equals to men. Now that we strive for gender equality a woman belongs to herself and continue to belong to herself and not to her husband during marriage. (Wow, that was longwinded)

So it's like what was once a sale is now a lease. You still pay for your wife, but you've got to keep her in no worse condition than you received her in.

Wcharlie in india it's the opposite,women pays for men,how r we suppose to call that.??Groom price.

Originally posted by browneyes97:

in india it's the opposite,women pays for men,how r we suppose to call that.??

At Europe that was the costume at medieval ages. The family of the bride has an obligation to offer so the bride could ascend to a more elevated social class. Than that have changed and it become the family of the man to offer to the bride.

Anyway no one was buying nothing regarding persons. That's only a way how societies level different social classes unions.

My opinion is its because the bride price in many african societies is used as a capital to the parents of the married daughter, so the man must miss use tht woman whn smthng wrng done by a woman in their marriage life, I comment tht a bride price should be thr bt under condition of the man to be given a decision to choose anythng to give to the woman whm he loves jst to value his love to her and nt the parents to decide wht a man to pay as a bride price!

Violence to women is wrong full stop. Buying people to marry you make it sound like prostitution. Marriage is about love and wanting to be with each other not money. Sorry if I have offended anyone.

Originally posted by browneyes97:

Wcharlie in india it's the opposite,women pays for men,how r we suppose to call that.??Groom price.

No, that's dowry. It used to be common in Europe during medieval times.

dude09, perhaps you have not heard of Catholic annulment. It also comes with an annulment fee.

Violence to women is wrong full stop. Buying people to marry you make it sound like prostitution. Marriage is about love and wanting to be with each other not money. Sorry if I have offended anyone.

Yeah. I can't get my head round this one either.

I'm just saying there's nothing particularly worse about Islam there.

Originally posted by Museatlantis:

Sorry if I have offended anyone.

For the record, I would not be.

Payment of dowry is still very much in existence in Nig although its fading very fast. The amount defers from region to region and other factor like if the bride is a virgin, the level of education e.t.c
The south-south region is the most expensive, as in backbreaking expensive that does not even include the traditional wedding expenses.the southwest region is much friendlier.
The main idea behind the payment of brideprice is to show respect for the bride's parent for their effort on the bride. Some greedy parent use this as a source of revenue, to them a female child is a goldmine.
As regard violence, its very rare (atleast where i live).

Originally posted by jivelissie:

The main idea behind the payment of brideprice is to show respect for the bride's parent for their effort on the bride. Some greedy parent use this as a source of revenue, to them a female child is a goldmine.

It is interesting how different this is from a country like China where boys are seen as so much more important.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by jivelissie:

The main idea behind the payment of brideprice is to show respect for the bride's parent for their effort on the bride. Some greedy parent use this as a source of revenue, to them a female child is a goldmine.

It is interesting how different this is from a country like China where boys are seen as so much more important.

Boys are also very important(to carry on the family name). A woman that does not have one, should be prepared for a 2nd rival. Male children are like insurance for the widows in some part of the country, you get nothing of your husband inheritance(popular among the semi-illitrates).

I lived in Thailand for a long time. They have sin sot, same thing as a dowry. The money is given to the the bride's parents, mostly as show. It is customary for the parents to secretly return the money to the bride (not you, the bride ) after the wedding. I eventually married a Thai. She was divorced (from a Thai), 37 years old, with a 13 year old kid. From what I've seen in Thailand, she was considered "damaged goods", even though I'm American, nobody asked me for a penny. After we were married, I did have a nice house built for Mom. That was of my own free will, which is the way it should be, not a condition of marriage...

Originally posted by Frenzie:

It is interesting how different this is from a country like China where boys are seen as so much more important.

This greatly depends on which part of China you are referring to, especially countryside vs urban Chinese. The more hillbilly regions of China must be pretty hellish to be a young woman. I have a pet theory I hope to test soon, that the flow to the textile factories in the South-East is of course economic migration but also a little bit of woman's lib, that even as cogs in a factory wheel they have more self-determination.

Uneducated migrants from the countryside are treated by the city dwellers much like Mexican migrants in the US, still they are better off.

Chinese from the North-East (Manchuria for the historically minded) are reported to behave "like Russians", no feminist ideal either. By contrast in Shanghai it is the women who are supposed to run the show.

Nigeria is urbanising very rapidly as well. I imagine that has as a major impact on cultural mores there.

Originally posted by jax:

This greatly depends on which part of China you are referring to, especially countryside vs urban Chinese.

Fine, add "traditionally" to my quote.

Could you clarify what behaving like Russians means?

The men do the drinking, the women do the working, and spend their money on their looks. Cultural stereotype, but there you are. It's kind of the rust belt of China.

The men do the drinking, the women do the working, and spend their money on their looks.

Where do i sign up?

Maybe WastedCharlie could enlighten as to the view that dowry matters still exist here in GB? It was a thing in Victorian times but died out. If it exists at all it will be in minority imported cultures certainly not in the indigenous. I would imagine that in places like Africa it must be a bit of a strain trying to maintain that as cost in money or goods would not be easy?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Maybe WastedCharlie could enlighten as to the view that dowry matters still exist here in GB? It was a thing in Victorian times but died out. If it exists at all it will be in minority imported cultures certainly not in the indigenous. I would imagine that in places like Africa it must be a bit of a strain trying to maintain that as cost in money or goods would not be easy?

Now,that pictures mr.howie trying to divert the thread.completely going against the flow.thinking out of a self-perceived world.hush

There is nothing called ‘Dowry’ in Islam. On the contrary, Islam enjoins the groom to give a ‘Bridal-Gift’ or ‘Dower’ as a token of love and assurance to his would be wife at the time of marriage. In fact without payment of this sum, the marriage cannot get solemnized.
The Holy Qur’an instructs the
believers
"And give the women (whom you
marry) their dower (obligatory
bridal gift) happily" (4:4)
The practice of dowry among
ignorant Muslims is a result of the
influence of the evil practices of the
society they live in. Islam does not
put any financial burden on the
father of the girl.

There is nothing called ‘Dowry’ in Islam. On the contrary, Islam enjoins the groom to give a ‘Bridal-Gift’ or ‘Dower’ as a token of love and assurance to his would be wife at the time of marriage. In fact without payment of this sum, the marriage cannot get solemnized.
The Holy Qur’an instructs the
believers
"And give the women (whom you
marry) their dower (obligatory
bridal gift) happily" (4:4)
The practice of dowry among
ignorant Muslims is a result of the
influence of the evil practices of the
society they live in. Islam does not
put any financial burden on the
father of the girl.

Is it open day on the funny farm over there keloda? What utter balderdash is that last comment. My contribution was on the thread as it happens if you try reading it with your eyes open you will see that. A contributor also mentioned dowries having once existed here and i have commented on such. What the devil are you on about? Or having not understood my reply to the thread you just feel inclined to talk nonsense?

Ah,what was that?Anger?frustration? Hmmm,mr.howie needs a day off work

Originally posted by keloda:

Ah,what was that?Anger?frustration? Hmmm,mr.howie needs a day off work

why always you attack people?!

No I don't let Africans faze me and you mistake or choose to misunderstand me. It is keloda who wrote something on my contribution that didn't make sense as I was talking about t THIS thread which seems to be beyond him. He accused me of wandering off when it is patently obvious I hadn't. Did school come out too early or what? Oh, it would suit you to fall back on that sillyiness DANBUZ. You too have completely missed the point as well of me giving an answer to the discussion at hand. Are we just going to get the eccentrics here on the recent African invasion of the Forum or the more sensible elements there? If people come on here and cannot take the heat in the kitchen they know what they can do otherwise grin and do try to bear it!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

No I don't let Africans faze me and you mistake or choose to misunderstand me. It is keloda who wrote something on my contribution that didn't make sense as I was talking about t THIS thread which seems to be beyond him. He accused me of wandering off when it is patently obvious I hadn't. Did school come out too early or what? Oh, it would suit you to fall back on that sillyiness DANBUZ. You too have completely missed the point as well of me giving an answer to the discussion at hand. Are we just going to get the eccentrics here on the recent African invasion of the Forum or the more sensible elements there? If people come on here and cannot take the heat in the kitchen they know what they can do otherwise grin and do try to bear it!

Hmn...!

Well hhm is an excellent off the hook alternative.

Originally posted by jax:

Uneducated migrants from the countryside are treated by the city dwellers much like Mexican migrants in the US, still they are better off.

And how is that Jax? I treat everybody well who treats me well. The default is courteously. Nothing like overgeneralizing.

Originally posted by browneyes97:

NB:Bride price has existed for generations in africa,it's our culture and a symbol of appreciation and respect to the female's parents.But it's not there to mean the woman has been sold.

Isn't bride price a payment for the woman's loss to the family? She was, after all, a family asset.

Originally posted by Jaybro:

And how is that Jax? I treat everybody well who treats me well. The default is courteously. Nothing like overgeneralizing.

On the scale of hundreds of millions individs we would be governed by overgenerals, the individual stories would be drowned out. This wasn't as much an overgeneralisation as an analogy, and analogies have limits of their own.

The migrations from countryside to the cities in Africa, in India, in China, the migration in the Americas, or from Northern Africa to Europe, they all have something in common but they all are different. Subdividing them into smaller streams until you get down to the personal level, some natives will be courteous, others will be downright hostile.

Originally posted by dude09:

Well, Muslim marriages are even worst, they got a refund policy!

If the husband or his family member deem the bride doesn't qualify as a good wife, he can either exchange her with another girl (her sister), or request a refund + a hefty fine from the bride's family... I think this is even more insulting than wife beating, because the bride is literally being treated as "goods" you bought from Walmart, which can be exchange with a replacement or refund (regardless of the condition of the returned goods) if you're not satisfied with "it" after the sales.

where you hear that .show me the link ? if a woman demands a divorce she is not entitled to anything of the dowry that was given in marriage because she is the one asking of the islamic courts .if the husband asks or pursues or even has another wife with out the first wife knowing then she is allowed a divorce and her dowry to what was given .In my friends case sod all he married her for a 10ner all she got back was a 10ner:D i use it for toilet roll ,anyway the truth in Islam the woman gets plenty but with cultures putting themselves before Islam then it sucks .
Still like that Link from the Quran if you have it thankyou i like to study that ,thinking on the grounds of a strict juggalo peace wedding .

Why are you so fascinated by Islam?

Originally posted by WastedCharlie:

At one time, a man's wife was part of his chattel, women were not treat as equals to men. Now that we strive for gender equality a woman belongs to herself and continue to belong to herself and not to her husband during marriage. (Wow, that was longwinded)

Now Prenuptial contracts are the norm.

I remember seeing a documentary on bride burning in India and I believe one of the primary causes of that was because the women would refuse to pay additional dowry to their husbands.

Unbelievable ~

Yeah and India is a democracy.......

Men will soon dab into the brothels.bride price is equal to paying for sex not an institute for mutual love and respect!!

Originally posted by jax:

On the scale of hundreds of millions individs we would be governed by overgenerals, the individual stories would be drowned out.

And therein lies the rub. How do you get to generalizations but for an accumulation of individual cases? I'm going to take a wild guess that the worst problems occur when illegals penetrate the job market. And I don't mean just tidying up lawns and washing cars. That seems to be the case in Arizona, which has a very large illegal population, and Mississippi, which has a small population. I lived in Mississippi for a very short time when my Black colleagues were unwelcome in nearby communities, a time when Blacks were generally comfortable in Michigan. That's not to say that Blacks in Michigan have always been untroubled. I actually remember the below events because the older brother of a friend was stabbed...my recollection of the family is that it was no big surprise, since he went looking for trouble. They were recent migrants from the deep South.

The summer of 1941 saw an epidemic of street corner fights involving blacks and Polish youths who were terrorizing black neighborhoods in Detroit and Hamtramck.
.........................................
Early in June 1943, 25,000 Packard plant workers, who produced engines for bombers and PT boats, stopped work in protest of the promotion of three blacks. A handful of agitators whipped up animosity against the promotions. During the strike a voice outside the plant reportedly shouted, "I'd rather see Hitler and Hirohito win than work beside a nigger on the assembly line."
http://apps.detnews.com/apps/history/index.php?id=185

Take a look at
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26410407/
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/06/us/06immig.html
.........................................
Illegals have been arrested in Grand Rapids in job-related "raids," yet I don't sense any smoldering animosity toward Mexican "immigrants". At any rate, the numbers are relatively small. It may be there somewhere, but I have not seen it in action.

A town where I lived some years back has large apple orchards. Nobody in the local population wants to pick apples, so the migrants have free reign while in town. The small number that have stayed seem to have no large problems; that is, so far as I know. For a couple of years I gave time to a local agglomoration of charitable outreaches which serviced some in that community. Were they accepted into the community? Hell, I don't know, but guess that they weren't "integrated." Nor was I. Like most folks I live on somebody's perifery. I love it that way.

Equal numbers of illegal Swedes would hardly raise an eyebrow. If they took "our" jobs, there would be shit to pay.

Honestly d bride price is pride 2 my opposite sex(females), bcos its mkes dem very rspectble,great, honour & cheerish dere freedom every coner dey find demself, even though nowadys its costly, but i'll go wit dat, even ma islam supprt d 'dowery' as bride price.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Why are you so fascinated by Islam?

and why are you as well .

O_o WOW.....Did not know that philosophy.

Its actually ridiculous, husbands and wives are supposed to serve eachother.

2 RekaG, i love your signature..
It sounds awesome

Originally posted by maswib:

2 RekaG, i love your signature..
It sounds awesome

Thank you, I guess.

hi guy's i wanna make a comment in this topic..

As a of muslim women in our religion bride price is not the correct term. The women in islam has to have her dowry or mahar as part of the marriage. It is an obligatory act of the groom. As a gift for the women,. Its not that you buying your future wife or pricing the women,.

Originally posted by Hadilfrancisco:

hi guy's i wanna make a comment in this topic..

As a of muslim women in our religion bride price is not the correct term. The women in islam has to have her dowry or mahar as part of the marriage. It is an obligatory act of the groom. As a gift for the women,. Its not that you buying your future wife or pricing the women,.

Yes agreed but if your a foriegn woman marrying a the man from that country he gives just a tenner which in yours would be calculated into dollers .What i am saying how much the foriegn woman is so gullable has not got a clue of of ISLAMIC marriage .

hi juggalo in second tough you might be right but as long the man has a great respect and believe in his religion he will do the same thing . A real example my friend got married before one year than time she's still ignorance about islam. But her husband treat and do the same thing. Its not the amount its the intention of the man alot of people missed understand the tradition. But one thing, its not the price..

hi, hadil,,, you are right.... if we study all the religions, every religion give respect to woman.... there is no single word about woman in any religion for the dowry.... in many cultures... people do their own will... we should discourage these concepts about bride price....

Originally posted by handsomekhan:

every religion give respect to woman

Did you ever read any of the so-called holy texts? But perhaps it's easier to start with some historically relevant feminist texts if you have trouble making out the subjugation of women in the Torah, the Qur'an, etc.

BTW, my wife paid $11.95 for me and is still complaining about over-paying. It stings!

He may have kept the $11.95.

Originally posted by jessheartsben:

I remember seeing a documentary on bride burning in India and I believe one of the primary causes of that was because the women would refuse to pay additional dowry to their husbands.

Unbelievable ~

Dowry system developed a culture of savings in India
Otherwise they will waste the money to eat drink and merry

Originally posted by krispymatt:

Originally posted by jessheartsben:

I remember seeing a documentary on bride burning in India and I believe one of the primary causes of that was because the women would refuse to pay additional dowry to their husbands.

Unbelievable ~

Dowry system developed a culture of savings in India
Otherwise they will waste the money to eat drink and merry

You mean, otherwise they would be rich, but now they are saving instead? Kinda makes sense.

***
Dowry system is women buying men for themselves. What a horror how cheap Western men are!

in my country, Indonesia, we, as a man, when going to marry a w0man, it's m0ment call "akad nikah" we are to pay "mas kawin" that depends 0n men's n his wife will be agreement, such as a 2 or 3 grams gol ring or cash n0t m0re than 500.000 rupiah (50 US$) cuz we're taught n0t to be royal
or a c0mplete praying tools + holy Qur'an (that's the m0st men do), or a h0me c0mpletely with it's tools for a rich men