Theism v. non-theism: Why I am not an atheist....

Theism v. non-theism: Why I am not an atheist....

...and why I suggest many of you who are so-labeled are not, either.

I don't drink root beer. I don't eat licorice. Spiders make me nervous, even the "safe" ones. I don't believe in Bigfoot. I don't believe that there is a god of any description that I've run across.
.........................................
That doesn't make me an aroot beerist, an alicoricist, an aspiderist, or an aBigfootist. Finally, I'm not an atheist!

If I took a formal, named position on all of the things I don't like or don't believe in, I'd have precious little time for much else.

I'll leave it to others to figure out why I'm genuinely not an atheist.

All explanations are welcome.

What are you trying to say? That you're an abeliever in labels?

I have no bone to pick with labels, self-assigned. What I intended was that there's nothing special about god identifications. If somebody wants to label himself or herself an atheist, who am I to object? On the other hand, there seems to be a pejorative attached to the notion of atheism, as least as used by theists. There is so much trash attached to the word that it is poorly descriptive of anything. It's certainly nothing like being blue.

Abeliever? God-awful word, ain't it? A- screws up many otherwise fine words, Agary.

Usually it never really comes up.

It does come up here, but that's to be expected.

In my life it never comes up either.

I used to help a local kid (seventeen years old, I think) with her computer. She started to send me chatty emails and one day asked me if I was a Catholic. I said no, and she asked me if I were "at least" a Christian. I said no, and she dropped me dead.

As would I. What religion do you aboriginals adhere to? Dreamtimer?

Economists put their faith in money. They worship the golden calf, do you? The worlds largest false religion is a belief that the economy is god and you must borrow and pay interest to repay debt.

Originally posted by Jaybro:

As would I. What religion do you aboriginals adhere to? Dreamtimer?

Acalvinist.

Jaybro, I've got a question. How would you go about being an atheist when, as demonstrated in another thread on this system, you believe you ARE God???? That would be, uh, not believing in yourself?!?

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Jaybro, I've got a question. How would you go about being an atheist when, as demonstrated in another thread on this system, you believe you ARE God???? That would be, uh, not believing in yourself?!?

He'd hardly be the only one who doesn't believe in himself

All men are created as images of God. We can't be the exact replica of Him. Jaybro is Geniune Optimistic Dude. So what?

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Jaybro, I've got a question. How would you go about being an atheist when, as demonstrated in another thread on this system, you believe you ARE God???? That would be, uh, not believing in yourself?!?

It's on everybody who's God's mind.

Originally posted by Bloodhound Gang:

So vote for me for Savior and you'll go to Heaven
Your lame duck Lord is like Kevin Spacey in "Seven"
With creepy threats of H-E-Double-Hockey-Stick
You just can't teach an old God new tricks
But would I be a good Messiah with my low self-esteem?
If I don't believe in myself would that be blasphemy?
Just sport some crummy "holier than thou" facade
Yeah that's what I would do if I were God

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Jaybro, I've got a question. How would you go about being an atheist when, as demonstrated in another thread on this system, you believe you ARE God???? That would be, uh, not believing in yourself?!?

A man can't have a beer talk?

Originally posted by Thabotizz:

All men are created as images of God.

Of course, we all resemble Jaybro. Now good luck proving that wrong

Originally posted by Jaybro:

On the other hand, there seems to be a pejorative attached to the notion of atheism, as least as used by theists.

Well, the same pejorative works with words like "theist", "believer", "Christian", "holy roller", "Bible-thumper" and a whole host of others when used by atheists. Maybe you could use the terms "brights" or "Übermenschen".

Originally posted by Macallan:

Of course, we all resemble Jaybro. Now good luck proving that wrong

Man. I wonder how the word "atheist" ever got such a negative vibe? Could it be that constant references to, I dunno, the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Pink Unicorns and flying teapots isn't winning friends and influencing people? Maybe.

What would be a better way to polish the atheist image? I have no studies to point to, but there may be a lesson in the “brights” episode. I suspect that what atheists really need is for people to believe that they're likeable, and not so different from everybody else. So perhaps future atheist message crusaders should describe themselves and their brethren as humble, rather than angry or sneering or super smart. In addition, perhaps atheists should associate themselves more with universal human feelings of sympathy, joy, and even vulnerability, rather than cold rationality and relentless inquisitiveness. I'm not sure, but I do know one thing — something that we all learned in high school. The “bright” kids aren’t always the ones with the most friends, and nobody — nobody — likes a smart ass.

Source. There ya go. That's how that "trash" got attached to the word, Jaybro.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

Jaybro, I've got a question. How would you go about being an atheist when, as demonstrated in another thread on this system, you believe you ARE God???? That would be, uh, not believing in yourself?!?

A quandary if there ever was one. But have you never heard of a diffident god?

Originally posted by jivelissie:

A man can't have a beer talk?

It's palm wine or nothing!

Originally posted by Macallan:

Of course, we all resemble Jaybro.

You poor bastards!

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Maybe you could use the terms "brights" or "Übermenschen".

Ja, ich bin ein Übermensch.
Some of you might enjoy my new co-authored book...

Originally posted by Jaybro:

You poor bastard![/qoute]

Well done Jaybro.

This is Jaybro at one of his loose ends and mumbles to himself so why not share it amongst those not going through occasional woolly phases when thing are quiet here. Too much time on the hands to fill methinks.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

This is Jaybro at one of his loose ends and mumbles to himself so why not share it amongst those not going through occasional woolly phases when thing are quiet here. Too much time on the hands to fill methinks.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Man. I wonder how the word "atheist" ever got such a negative vibe? Could it be that constant references to, I dunno, the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Pink Unicorns and flying teapots isn't winning friends and influencing people? Maybe.

Those postdate the negative vibe associated with atheism. The actual reason is simply that disagreement is not tolerated in Christianity. Every non-believer undermines the unquestioning faith of the flock. They ask annoying questions, when faced with demands for repentance, and that's just plain annoying for those who prefer not to put thought into things.
What's worse, the consequences of non-belief? Nothing whatsoever, except for the punishments of the faithful. The stereotypes, insults and hatred throw at atheists are a form of emotional blackmail, no one wants to be ostracised from their family and friends, from their community. If you lose your faith, that is what awaits you. If god will not punish the non-believers, the faithful will.

Moreover, the examples you chose are all intentionally ludicrous to make a simple point even more obvious, that these nonsensical ideas are as well supported by most apologist handwaveing as Christianity itself is.
They're not insults, even when treated as such.

I agree with you, Redem, in general that's what really happens, but like every generalization there are always exceptions and some Religious people truly respect agnostic/atheist people (and vice-versa). I mean, if two people respect each other's religious views,their morals and principals are equal (at least in major pillars), neither of them has the right to 'blackmail' the other. It's really just about respecting each other.

I just wanted to add that, cos I happen to know a few cases where there's truly mutual respect

Originally posted by OnetimePoster:

I used to help a local kid (seventeen years old, I think) with her computer. She started to send me chatty emails and one day asked me if I was a Catholic. I said no, and she asked me if I were "at least" a Christian. I said no, and she dropped me dead.

I come from a society of a thousand and one religions, i have friends across a lot of religions and the one thing i have learned is that only the individual matters and not wat he/she believes in

Originally posted by Redem:

What's worse, the consequences of non-belief? Nothing whatsoever, except for the punishments of the faithful. The stereotypes, insults and hatred throw at atheists are a form of emotional blackmail, no one wants to be ostracised from their family and friends, from their community. If you lose your faith, that is what awaits you. If god will not punish the non-believers, the faithful will.

Is that a personal statement? (I don't actually expect an answer.)

That hasn't happened to me in the least. In my life it is simply a non-issue. Perhaps that is the fate of some, but not me.

I'm on holiday, but I can't resist this so....

Not being a theist or an atheist but a dunnotheist, I think "respect" (whatever that means) should go along how funny the belief is; for example the Spaghetti religion is very funny and deserves a great deal of respect; I heard a joke once in a catholic church so that deserves some respect; other religions I could mention, but will not, are less funny and even dour and don't deserve much in the way of adoration; some regions are downright miserable (like the "taliban" religion) so struggle for even an audience. As for atheism which is not a religion, funnyness is according to the individual.

... and Jaybro - well he is funny, so a lot of respect there. God is, by the way, merely his pseudonym, a Jaybro derivative so to speak, so all you theists out there, be more espectful of Him or you may get zapped.

I shall now comit this to the God of dial up and maybe sometime, somewhere, it may get posted. Don't wait up.

Originally posted by string:

I shall now comit this to the God of dial up

And Lady Dial Up was merciful.

Originally posted by Jaybro:

I don't believe that there is a god of any description that I've run across.
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Finally, I'm not an atheist!

Ejem, those alternatives are not mutually exclusive, you can either be a good ol' deist or a closet solipsist. As for the bad vibes associated to the term atheist, I think those come from people who don't know the difference between atheism and antitheism, I'm sure a merciful God as yourself can forgive ignorance (at least in reasonable quantities).

For me non-theism is plain and simple atheism, just not believing the claim that a god or god exists, nothing more and nothing less. The word of choice for the concept may be unfortunate but is a logic choice. Just think about it: atheism is a word invented by theists scholars, picture in your mind an standard theist rant: cursing non-believers for their lack of faith, predicting the hellish afterlife and all the usual crap. Every time our ranting friend says the word non-theist, he must make a small pause in the non- part, and that alone can spoil the best of rants, so they simply picked a different prefix with more or less the same meaning.

Originally posted by Immanis:

atheism is a word invented by theists scholars

Nay, nay. "...the word "atheist" was first used by pagans to describe Christians
because they denied the very existence of the gods and goddesses whom
the pagans so revered." A.B. Drachmann
.........................................

Originally posted by string:

I shall now comit this to the God of dial up and maybe sometime, somewhere, it may get posted. Don't wait up.

(I hereby turn this man's dial-up into a high speed NASA connection...so it is done!)

Originally posted by string:

Not being a theist or an atheist but a dunnotheist...

I suspect that you just don't care. A don'tcarist, so to speak. Me, too. What I am certain of, however, is that a step-back view of any religion...somebody else's, of course...is a headshaker. Only one's own religion makes perfect sense.
.........................................
Ora pro nobody.

Originally posted by Jaybro:

Is that a personal statement? (I don't actually expect an answer.)

No, an observation of the general attitude of the faithful, throughout history and today. Especially the "true believers".

It must be the case that I'm such an enjoyable person that believers just let me be. Lucky me.

Originally posted by Jaybro:

Nay, nay. "...the word "atheist" was first used by pagans to describe Christians
because they denied the very existence of the gods and goddesses whom
the pagans so revered." A.B. Drachmann

Nay, nay, it is true that the so called pagans (i.e. everyone else) called atheists the Christians because the Christians denied the existence of their own Gods, but I won't go as far as to say that this was the first use ever of the term "atheist". In any case, my point stands. I never mentioned "christian theist ranting" I pretty much doubt your average drunkard Tyrian sailor would come with the word in absence of a better insult

Originally posted by Immanis:

I won't go as far as to say that this was the first use ever of the term "atheist".

Nor would I...you and I and Drachmann weren't there to hear it. The best we can do is see where it first appears in print, and that predates the pagans he mentions by centuries. I guess it's a matter of focus.

"I don't believe that there is a god of any description that I've run across. "

The god of roadkill?
.........................................

Originally posted by Redem:

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Man. I wonder how the word "atheist" ever got such a negative vibe? Could it be that constant references to, I dunno, the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Pink Unicorns and flying teapots isn't winning friends and influencing people? Maybe.

Those postdate the negative vibe associated with atheism. ...

The gist predates those specific modern examples.

Originally posted by Redem:

They ask annoying questions, when faced with demands for repentance, and that's just plain annoying for those who prefer not to put thought into things.

Right...like trolling religion threads. Anyway those who are constantly demanding secular "repentance" (those who direct some sort of religious energy into political platforms) are every bit as damn annoying. And those "sermons" are stated with pretty much the same lack of thought and rational debate. It's all...self-evident!!!!

Originally posted by Redem:

The stereotypes, insults and hatred throw at atheists are a form of emotional blackmail, no one wants to be ostracised from their family and friends, from their community.

Awwwww, poor babies. You folks seem to give as good as you get in that department. That was the point of the excerpt I quoted.

We give far better than we get, we're simply ignored, marginalised and patronised for it. Trolling religion threads is a modern phenomenon, and a reaction against the converse, the evangelical attempts to infiltrate everything and brainwash other people's kids.

Originally posted by Redem:

We give far better than we get, we're simply ignored, marginalised and patronised for it. Trolling religion threads is a modern phenomenon, and a reaction against the converse, the evangelical attempts to infiltrate everything and brainwash other people's kids.

Theres no brainwashing, I think on my own, so do many I know. You all troll more than any of the christians do, I don't like to force my beliefs on people, I just tell what I know.

There is no word for the efforts of preachers to reach out to children better than brainwashing. Especially those engaged in "fire and brimstone" style preaching. Well, maybe emotional blackmail is a better term.

Originally posted by Redem:

We give far better than we get, we're simply ignored, marginalised and patronised for it. Trolling religion threads is a modern phenomenon, and a reaction against the converse, the evangelical attempts to infiltrate everything and brainwash other people's kids.

Paranoid much? My, my...I've heard evangelicals say the same thing about atheists. Go figure.

Paranoid? No. They've never stopped trying. See the Dover trials for evidence if you need it. Or the earlier legal skirmishes over creationism in public schools. That they've failed time and again is simply because it's illegal, but that's not deterring them.

Originally posted by Redem:

There is no word for the efforts of preachers to reach out to children better than brainwashing. Especially those engaged in "fire and brimstone" style preaching. Well, maybe emotional blackmail is a better term.

Some do go a little to far and using the "scaring into faith"method, but normally God's love is preached. We learn about the really serious stuff when we get to our mid teens.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

Originally posted by Redem:

We give far better than we get, we're simply ignored, marginalised and patronised for it. Trolling religion threads is a modern phenomenon, and a reaction against the converse, the evangelical attempts to infiltrate everything and brainwash other people's kids.

Paranoid much? My, my...I've heard evangelicals say the same thing about atheists. Go figure.

I agree.

Originally posted by Redem:

Paranoid? No. They've never stopped trying. See the Dover trials for evidence if you need it. Or the earlier legal skirmishes over creationism in public schools. That they've failed time and again is simply because it's illegal, but that's not deterring them.

Its also illegal to take away someones ability of free speech.

Originally posted by RekaG:

Originally posted by Redem:

Paranoid? No. They've never stopped trying. See the Dover trials for evidence if you need it. Or the earlier legal skirmishes over creationism in public schools. That they've failed time and again is simply because it's illegal, but that's not deterring them.

Its also illegal to take away someones ability of free speech.

And what has that to do with teaching creationist nonsense in public schools?

Originally posted by RekaG:

Its also illegal to take away someones ability of free speech.

What free speech has to do with education? Does your science teacher taught you about astrology, tea leaves reading, flat earth theory and similar stuff? No. You know why? Because everyone is free to say whatever they want, but science is not about freedom of speech, science is the tyranny of evidence and under its rule all ideas are not worth the same. You can dislike this fact and throw a tantrum if you want, but if an idea is not backed with evidence is not worth a *** and don't deserve to be taught in science class.

Originally posted by Immanis:

Originally posted by RekaG:

Its also illegal to take away someones ability of free speech.

What free speech has to do with education? Does your science teacher taught you about astrology, tea leaves reading, flat earth theory and similar stuff? No. You know why? Because everyone is free to say whatever they want, but science is not about freedom of speech, science is the tyranny of evidence and under its rule all ideas are not worth the same. You can dislike this fact and throw a tantrum if you want, but if an idea is not backed with evidence is not worth a *** and don't deserve to be taught in science class.

Some the science is outdated, not every theory has been proven. I love science, but I know for a fact not everthing is right.

I have a uncle and aunt in the science field, even they don't believe believe we evolved from animals.

Originally posted by RekaG:

Originally posted by Immanis:

Originally posted by RekaG:

Its also illegal to take away someones ability of free speech.

What free speech has to do with education? Does your science teacher taught you about astrology, tea leaves reading, flat earth theory and similar stuff? No. You know why? Because everyone is free to say whatever they want, but science is not about freedom of speech, science is the tyranny of evidence and under its rule all ideas are not worth the same. You can dislike this fact and throw a tantrum if you want, but if an idea is not backed with evidence is not worth a *** and don't deserve to be taught in science class.

Some the science is outdated, not every theory has been proven. I love science, but I know for a fact not everthing is right.

Oh, and that's supposed to justify teaching blatant mythological nonsense as 'science'?

Originally posted by RekaG:

I have a uncle and aunt in the science field, even they don't believe believe we evolved from animals.

What on earth is 'the science field'? As long as they're not biologists that's not really a problem.

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

Originally posted by Immanis:

Originally posted by RekaG:

Its also illegal to take away someones ability of free speech.

What free speech has to do with education? Does your science teacher taught you about astrology, tea leaves reading, flat earth theory and similar stuff? No. You know why? Because everyone is free to say whatever they want, but science is not about freedom of speech, science is the tyranny of evidence and under its rule all ideas are not worth the same. You can dislike this fact and throw a tantrum if you want, but if an idea is not backed with evidence is not worth a *** and don't deserve to be taught in science class.

Some the science is outdated, not every theory has been proven. I love science, but I know for a fact not everthing is right.

Oh, and that's supposed to justify teaching blatant mythological nonsense as 'science'?

Originally posted by RekaG:

I have a uncle and aunt in the science field, even they don't believe believe we evolved from animals.

What on earth is 'the science field'? As long as they're not biologists that's not really a problem.

Biological Chemistry and Organic Chemistry.

"field" often used to describe a industry.

Originally posted by Redem:

If you lose your faith, that is what awaits you.

True, though I have been a bit fortunate in that aspect in avoiding some of the events you listed.

Originally posted by Redem:

If god will not punish the non-believers, the faithful will.

Damn right, especially the fundies. (Well, they try, but fail.)

Originally posted by Redem:

We give far better than we get, we're simply ignored, marginalised and patronised for it.

Well hell man, at least you all in the UK have numbers.
I would daresay that the number of nonbelievers in Mississippi is under 75.
(If that many.)

Originally posted by RekaG:

I don't like to force my beliefs on people, I just tell what I know.

And for the most part, I have no beef with Christians like myself.
Out of curiosity, what part of the country do you hail from?

Originally posted by RekaG:

Its also illegal to take away someones ability of free speech.

And it is also illegal to pray in school. Tough cheese.
Keep pseudo-scientific theories in the philosophy or history department and out of the science classrooms.

Originally posted by RekaG:

I love science, but I know for a fact not everthing is right.

Ah but that lovable deity in the Old Testament, who just so happens to also be the hippy "love thy neighbour" schizophrenic other half of Yahweh, is quite right, eh? Is he infallible?

Originally posted by RekaG:

Some the science is outdated, not every theory has been proven.

Do feel free at any time to support your Creationist nonsense with solid, scientific, verifiable facts.
Many have asserted the same as you have and have failed.
I look forward to your response(s).

Originally posted by RekaG:

I have a uncle and aunt in the science field, even they don't believe believe we evolved from animals.

In which case they either:
1. Enjoy the social aspect of church.
2. They don't want to face the music.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Well hell man, at least you all in the UK have numbers.

I would daresay that the number of nonbelievers in Mississippi is under 75.

(If that many.)

Aye, but for that very reason people here do not then to organise. We only seem to bother when under pressure from the fundies and their allies, as a defence.

The term "atheist" only has meaning as long as theism is a factor.

I'm not a coward, but this is a endless discussion, no one is going to win.

I'm a follower of God, I have my own views, you have yours. I get tired of people trying to be persuasive, trying to make me believe in "your god= science" . I love the beauty of science, if I actually would of done well in my schooling, I would be majoring botanic science or physics by now.(be a real teacher if you decide to homeschool your children, no matter how old they are, except for college age)

We don't know everything. If you believe your views are right, why do you hard, to defend them?

People are misdiagnosed, some diagnoses are actually a guess, when they can't figure out what it is and it resembles something else.

(Whats with all the typos, O_o is it me or a glitch)

Originally posted by Jaybro:

Originally posted by rjhowie:

This is Jaybro at one of his loose ends and mumbles to himself so why not share it amongst those not going through occasional woolly phases when thing are quiet here. Too much time on the hands to fill methinks.

@RekaG:


I bet you will find interesting all the videos of that C0nc0rdance fellow.

Originally posted by RekaG:

I love science, but I know for a fact not everthing is right.

But how do you know that for a fact?

Originally posted by RekaG:

I get tired of people trying to be persuasive, trying to make me believe in "your god= science".

Now that would be the same rubbish with a different label slapped on. Who exactly did anything like that here?

Originally posted by RekaG:

We don't know everything. If you believe your views are right, why do you hard, to defend them?

I don't know about the others but I'm allergic to bullshit presented as fact. Mythology pretending to be science is just one of the more annoying subsets of that.

Originally posted by RekaG:

People are misdiagnosed, some diagnoses are actually a guess, when they can't figure out what it is and it resembles something else.

So what you're getting at is that we don't know everything therefore totally unfounded nonsense has to be considered? Is that what you're trying to say?

Originally posted by RekaG:

(Whats with all the typos, O_o is it me or a glitch)

We're all fluent in typo

Originally posted by Macallan:

I don't know about the others but I'm allergic to bullshit presented as fact.

Yup, same here. By itself that might not even be the worst thing (though I certainly wouldn't like it), but it leads to things like homeopathy being covered by my insurance. It's better to go for the core than to try to cut the symptoms imo.

Ugh, yes. Homoeopathy, and other claims of a similar nature, irritate me deeply. The religion of most normal people less so, it's the fundies that annoy me.

Originally posted by Redem:

it's the fundies that annoy me.

I am not a fundie but I would like to figure out a way to annoy you.

Promote homoeopathy! =D

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

I get tired of people trying to be persuasive, trying to make me believe in "your god= science".

Now that would be the same rubbish with a different label slapped on. Who exactly did anything like that here?

Originally posted by RekaG:

We don't know everything. If you believe your views are right, why do you hard, to defend them?

I don't know about the others but I'm allergic to bullshit presented as fact. Mythology pretending to be science is just one of the more annoying subsets of that.

Originally posted by RekaG:

People are misdiagnosed, some diagnoses are actually a guess, when they can't figure out what it is and it resembles something else.

So what you're getting at is that we don't know everything therefore totally unfounded nonsense has to be considered? Is that what you're trying to say?

Originally posted by RekaG:

(Whats with all the typos, O_o is it me or a glitch)

We're all fluent in typo

Oh....But I make a incredible amount of typos.

Anything you let dominate your life anything you work and strive for, is your god. Like money, science, art and entertainment.

Science doesn't have to be in the least like my God to be a god, to you. Science doesn't have to claim/be a living entity, science just has to dominate you. Athiest contradict themselves in this manner. All you have to do is free yourself of everything, including addiction. To not be a hypocracy.

Originally posted by RekaG:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

(Whats with all the typos, O_o is it me or a glitch)

We're all fluent in typo

Oh....But I make a incredible amount of typos.

That's what inline spell checkers are for

Originally posted by RekaG:

Anything you let dominate your life anything you work and strive for, is your god. Like money, science, art and entertainment.

Now that's a definition of 'god' I never heard before. Pretty much everyone will think of some 'god' as some sort of person with attached cult etc.

Originally posted by RekaG:

Science doesn't have to be in the least my God to be a god, to you. Science doesn't have to claim/be a living entity, science just has to dominate you. Athiest contradict themselves in this manner.

Oh dear, so you redefine 'god' to make up some sort of contradiction here. Bantay would be proud of you
Sorry, there is no contradiction since your made-up definition of 'god' has nothing to do with the actual meaning of the word.

Originally posted by RekaG:

All you have to do is free yourself of everything, including addiction. To not be a hypocracy.

Then why don't you go ahead as a good example and free yourself from your addiction to that biblical monstrosity? To not be a hypocrite yourself

I didn't make this up, its a proved theory by a scientist thats trying to figure out God.

Like you won't abandon science, I won't abandon God.

Originally posted by RekaG:

I didn't make this up, its a proved theory by a scientist thats trying to figure out God.

Now that's just plain nonsense. A redefinition of a word is not a theory ( did they redefine 'theory' too? ) and I'd like to see what mental contortions that person had to go through to 'prove' it. Probably redefined 'proof' too, probably as "whatever I really, really want to be true". Hey, that way I can prove absolutely anything, including the non-existence of your god!

Originally posted by RekaG:

Like you won't abandon science, I won't abandon God.

Well, that makes you an arch-hypocrite by your own definition.

Originally posted by Redem:

Promote homoeopathy! =D

Several of my friends swear by the stuff. I could only guess at the true worth..

http://abchomeopathy.com/forum2.php/140862/

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

I didn't make this up, its a proved theory by a scientist thats trying to figure out God.

Now that's just plain nonsense. A redefinition of a word is not a theory ( did they redefine 'theory' too? ) and I'd like to see what mental contortions that person had to go through to 'prove' it. Probably redefined 'proof' too, probably as "whatever I really, really want to be true". Hey, that way I can prove absolutely anything, including the non-existence of your god!

Originally posted by RekaG:

Like you won't abandon science, I won't abandon God.

Well, that makes you an arch-hypocrite by your own definition.

I'm not a hypocrite, for being into science. I'm not anti-science, I just don't let it rule me. Although christians do have a habit of falling away and without knowing it, worshiping something else. I strive not to be like that, although its very hard.

The theory that everybody worship something, is actually proved in the Bible and so is the "Big Bang Theory".

The Bible speaks of a meteor, call Wormwood. Well that isn't so far from the truth. A meteor was discovered and the people named it Wormwood.

Originally posted by RekaG:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

I didn't make this up, its a proved theory by a scientist thats trying to figure out God.

Now that's just plain nonsense. A redefinition of a word is not a theory ( did they redefine 'theory' too? ) and I'd like to see what mental contortions that person had to go through to 'prove' it. Probably redefined 'proof' too, probably as "whatever I really, really want to be true". Hey, that way I can prove absolutely anything, including the non-existence of your god!

Originally posted by RekaG:

Like you won't abandon science, I won't abandon God.

Well, that makes you an arch-hypocrite by your own definition.

I'm not a hypocrite, for being into science.

That is not what I said.

Originally posted by RekaG:

I'm not anti-science, I just don't let it rule me.

Instead you let your god rule you. Yet you tell me I need to abandon what you call 'god'. There's the hypocrisy.

Originally posted by RekaG:

The theory that everybody worship something, is actually proved in the Bible and so is the "Big Bang Theory".

Show me the verses which you believe to prove any of that. I've read the damn book and I call bullshit.
Either way, this claim only works if you redefine 'worship' to something so vague that it doesn't mean anything anymore and anyone with the intelligence of at least your average doorknob should see the flaws in that approach by now.

Originally posted by RekaG:

The Bible speaks of a meteor, call Wormwood. Well that isn't so far from the truth. A meteor was discovered and the people named it Wormwood.

What on earth are you talking about?

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

I didn't make this up, its a proved theory by a scientist thats trying to figure out God.

Now that's just plain nonsense. A redefinition of a word is not a theory ( did they redefine 'theory' too? ) and I'd like to see what mental contortions that person had to go through to 'prove' it. Probably redefined 'proof' too, probably as "whatever I really, really want to be true". Hey, that way I can prove absolutely anything, including the non-existence of your god!

Originally posted by RekaG:

Like you won't abandon science, I won't abandon God.

Well, that makes you an arch-hypocrite by your own definition.

I'm not a hypocrite, for being into science.

That is not what I said.

Originally posted by RekaG:

I'm not anti-science, I just don't let it rule me.

Instead you let your god rule you. Yet you tell me I need to abandon what you call 'god'. There's the hypocrisy.

Originally posted by RekaG:

The theory that everybody worship something, is actually proved in the Bible and so is the "Big Bang Theory".

Show me the verses which you believe to prove any of that. I've read the damn book and I call bullshit.
Either way, this claim only works if you redefine 'worship' to something so vague that it doesn't mean anything anymore and anyone with the intelligence of at least your average doorknob should see the flaws in that approach by now.

Originally posted by RekaG:

The Bible speaks of a meteor, call Wormwood. Well that isn't so far from the truth. A meteor was discovered and the people named it Wormwood.

What on earth are you talking about?

Google it....

Originally posted by RekaG:

Google it....

You make a claim, you back it up. I'm not going to do your homework.
Otherwise we'll have to assume that you can't back it up and just made up some nonsense.

Originally posted by Redem:

Paranoid? No. They've never stopped trying. See the Dover trials for evidence if you need it. Or the earlier legal skirmishes over creationism in public schools. That they've failed time and again is simply because it's illegal, but that's not deterring them.

They fail time and time again, and yet they earn your hatred.

Fundies at both ends of the spectrum never stop trying, and they both annoy the hell out of me.

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

Google it....

You make a claim, you back it up. I'm not going to do your homework.
Otherwise we'll have to assume that you can't back it up and just made up some nonsense.

I already did, I'm on my DSi which means I'm limited right now.

Originally posted by RekaG:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

Google it....

You make a claim, you back it up. I'm not going to do your homework.
Otherwise we'll have to assume that you can't back it up and just made up some nonsense.

I already did

You did no such thing. All you did was a bunch of claims with no backup whatsoever. Where are those 'proofs' you claim to be in the bible again?

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

Google it....

You make a claim, you back it up. I'm not going to do your homework.
Otherwise we'll have to assume that you can't back it up and just made up some nonsense.

I already did

You did no such thing. All you did was a bunch of claims with no backup whatsoever. Where are those 'proofs' you claim to be in the bible again?

Go to NASA's website search: "Wormwood"

Originally posted by RekaG:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

Google it....

You make a claim, you back it up. I'm not going to do your homework.
Otherwise we'll have to assume that you can't back it up and just made up some nonsense.

I already did

You did no such thing. All you did was a bunch of claims with no backup whatsoever. Where are those 'proofs' you claim to be in the bible again?

Go to NASA's website search: "Wormwood"

Again - where are those 'proofs' you claim to be in the bible again?

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

Google it....

You make a claim, you back it up. I'm not going to do your homework.
Otherwise we'll have to assume that you can't back it up and just made up some nonsense.

I already did

You did no such thing. All you did was a bunch of claims with no backup whatsoever. Where are those 'proofs' you claim to be in the bible again?

Go to NASA's website search: "Wormwood"

Again - where are those 'proofs' you claim to be in the bible again?

*knock*knock*knock* Since you have seemed to know a lot, so I thought you knew.

♪I'm-tal-kin'-a-bout-"Revolation"♪

Originally posted by RekaG:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Originally posted by RekaG:

Google it....

You make a claim, you back it up. I'm not going to do your homework.
Otherwise we'll have to assume that you can't back it up and just made up some nonsense.

I already did

You did no such thing. All you did was a bunch of claims with no backup whatsoever. Where are those 'proofs' you claim to be in the bible again?

Go to NASA's website search: "Wormwood"

Again - where are those 'proofs' you claim to be in the bible again?

*knock*knock*knock* Since you have seemed to know a lot, so I thought you knew.

♪I'm-tal-kin'-a-bout-"Revolation"♪

Well, if it's so obvious why can't you tell me WHERE EXACTLY the bible 'proves' any of this:

Originally posted by RekaG:

The theory that everybody worship something, is actually proved in the Bible and so is the "Big Bang Theory".

Besides, I just had a look at nasa.gov and if you actually search for 'wormwood' it takes you here:

Originally posted by nasa.gov:

Stories about the fictional planet Nibiru and predictions of doomsday in December 2012 have blossomed on the Internet. There are now (June 2009) more than 175 books listed on Amazon.com dealing with the 2012 doomsday. As this hoax spreads, many more disaster scenarios are being suggested. “Ask an Astrobiologist” has received nearly a thousand questions about Nibiru and 2012, with more than 200 answers posted. Many new questions are similar to those already answered.

I suggest you try your suggestions yourself before shooting yourself in the foot again.

Originally posted by RekaG:

Like you won't abandon science, I won't abandon God.

What on earth are you talking about?
No one is lives according to science like they do the 3 ancient books of literature of the 3 Abrahamic religions.

Originally posted by RekaG:

Like you won't abandon science, I won't abandon God.

Read in an online forum, that's pretty ironic!

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Like you won't abandon science, I won't abandon God.

You are implying that a man of God can't be a man of science?

Originally posted by fanfaron:

They fail time and time again, and yet they earn your hatred.

Disdain, I would have said.
They are still trying, after Dover there were the "academic freedom" laws, trying to make teachers who brought creationist propaganda into schools immune to prosecution. And most recently, the Texan school standards, they loaded the board with people willing to slide in alterations across the entire thing to make the standards conform to evangelical revisionist history.
Eternal vigilance is required, it would seem.

Originally posted by Denny77:

Several of my friends swear by the stuff. I could only guess at the true worth..

The best that can be said of the stuff, at least it's just water. It won't actually actively harm you (except in your wallet)

Originally posted by Redem:

Originally posted by fanfaron:

They fail time and time again, and yet they earn your hatred.

Disdain, I would have said.
They are still trying, after Dover there were the "academic freedom" laws, trying to make teachers who brought creationist propaganda into schools immune to prosecution. And most recently, the Texan school standards, they loaded the board with people willing to slide in alterations across the entire thing to make the standards conform to evangelical revisionist history.
Eternal vigilance is required, it would seem.

Sure, but there's a difference between "evangelical" and "fundamentalist". And after all, a lot of both evangelicals and fundamentalists get the feeling that political agendas are also being shoved on their kids, and not only in the area of science. Both sides have some legitimate gripes, I think.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

And after all, a lot of both evangelicals and fundamentalists get the feeling that political agendas are also being shoved on their kids, and not only in the area of science. Both sides have some legitimate gripes, I think.

I have the feeling that those evangelicals and fundamentalists will change their minds once they realize that by pushing the introduction of their own religion in class they are opening the door to ALL religions. If the current situation is bad for them, the sh*t will hit the fan when they learn that a wiccan priestess taught the kids the basics of witchcraft, or that junior wants to convert to Islam.

In general, the problem with nutters is that they usually just think in the immediate situation -skool is tishin unhoolly scinze to the kydos- and usually never bother to analyze the ramifications of their actions.

Originally posted by Immanis:

Originally posted by fanfaron:

And after all, a lot of both evangelicals and fundamentalists get the feeling that political agendas are also being shoved on their kids, and not only in the area of science. Both sides have some legitimate gripes, I think.

I have the feeling that those evangelicals and fundamentalists will change their minds once they realize that by pushing the introduction of their own religion in class they are opening the door to ALL religions. If the current situation is bad for them, the sh*t will hit the fan when they learn that a wiccan priestess taught the kids the basics of witchcraft, or that junior wants to convert to Islam.

A lot of them are opting out of public education entirely, which generally leaves public education worse off.

Originally posted by fanfaron:

A lot of them are opting out of public education entirely, which generally leaves public education worse off.

smart ones anyway.

Originally posted by Immanis:

they are opening the door to ALL religions.

I can't wait til 7 minutes of class are dedicated to Flying Spaghetti Monsterism.
That should go well with Cantheism!

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Originally posted by Immanis:

they are opening the door to ALL religions.

I can't wait til 7 minutes of class are dedicated to Flying Spaghetti Monsterism.
That should go well with Cantheism!

Apparently they don't discriminate....

Originally posted by Immanis:

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Like you won't abandon science, I won't abandon God.

You are implying that a man of God can't be a man of science?

No....

Originally posted by Immanis:

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Like you won't abandon science, I won't abandon God.

You are implying that a man of God can't be a man of science?

I did not say that, Immanis.

My bad, I tried to fix the post but it was too old.

No problem.
I just thought I might point that out.

Originally posted by RekaG:

Originally posted by Immanis:

You are implying that a man of God can't be a man of science?

No....

Tell that to Isaac Newton. Or Gregor Mendel.

Ok, tell me now guys. My Indian friend tells me they have different gods eg Shiva, Datta, Maruti and others. There are family deities and area dieties. When you pray to one diety, you don't put the other diety down! You respect other dieties.

This is what I undestand (Book of Exodus)when YHWH said thou shalt not pray other gods but me, for I'm a jealous God. There are other gods.

Originally posted by Thabotizz:

This is what I undestand (Book of Exodus)when YHWH said thou shalt not pray other gods but me, for I'm a jealous God. There are other gods.

Early judaism wasn't really monotheistic - they followed a more or less mesopotamian model where gods were associated with places ( like cities - every city had its own patron deity, complete with temple and everything ) or tribes. Grumpy Old Yahweh started out as the hebrew tribal god and of course they would only pray to their own god, just like (almost) everyone else, hence the numerous diatribes against other gods in the old testament. Over time things evolved from wrong gods to false gods to no other gods. Or from only one god that matters to only one god. Some traces of this can still be found in the early books of the old testament.

I agree with you 100% on that! Well, the muslim part of there are no gods, but Allah statement confuses most people. While in some Christian sects, Jesus is God. But I fail to understand whey Jesus went to pray with Peter and James before his passion! Then unto whom did He pray? The Father? Well it just gets to show you how many misinterpretations there are!

Anyway, I'm still Christian! But there are some misiterpretations which mislead people and some people are using their influence in church for selfish reasons.

Originally posted by Thabotizz:

Well, the muslim part of there are no gods, but Allah statement confuses most people.

Research tends to eliminate confusion.

Originally posted by Thabotizz:

But I fail to understand whey Jesus went to pray with Peter and James before his passion! Then unto whom did He pray? The Father?

Read this when you have a chance: http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas/summa/sum016.htm

Originally posted by Thabotizz:

But I fail to understand whey Jesus went to pray with Peter and James before his passion! Then unto whom did He pray? The Father? Well it just gets to show you how many misinterpretations there are!

Or perhaps contradictions?
In all my born days I have never seen such an illogical concept as the Trinity.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

In all my born days I have never seen such an illogical concept as the Trinity.

There are trinities which make a little more sense

Which trinity? Moses, Elijah (Mohammed) and Jesus? Is that why Peter wanted to make tents?

Originally posted by Thabotizz:

Which trinity? Moses, Elijah (Mohammed) and Jesus? Is that why Peter wanted to make tents?

god (father), jesus (son) and the holy ghost? or were you kidding?

Oh! That trinity.

@thedawgfan: is that Father mentioned above Yahweh? Or someone else?

yeah, that one ... the one which appears not to be obvious to a religious fellow in a theistic debate

Now, the phrase of like father like son? Any proof that Jesus is indeed Yahweh's son?

Sometimes I wonder, how some conversations start. O_o (I can explain, how a conversation about Pokémon, ended up in a "Rarity of Tetris DS" topic, but I can't explain all)

Originally posted by Thabotizz:

Which trinity?

You have got to be joking?
I am talking about Yahweh, JC, and the Holy Ghost.

Originally posted by Thabotizz:

@thedawgfan: is that Father mentioned above Yahweh?

Yahweh is the father.
For some strange reason, the term "God" is how people know Yahweh. I believe in calling things by their correct name, and the Judeo-Christian god's name is Yahweh. From my understanding and study of the Trinity, Yahweh is One and Yahweh is Three. All are seperate, yet all are equal.
(Hence my above comment about the most irrational thing I've ever come across.)

Originally posted by Thabotizz:

Any proof that Jesus is indeed Yahweh's son?

Dear me, Thabotizz, you haven't ever opened a bible, have you?
Jesus is Yahweh. (in human form according to Aquinas and numerous others)
That is why I am consistently amused at how all the locals and how some of the christians on here are quick to skip over the god described in the Old Testament, yet the hippie-Jesus described in the NT is thought to be the epitome of good. (Read the gospel of Thomas and compare that to the NT.)

The big bad Yahweh came into the world and redeemed himself by healing the sick and raising the dead? To top it off he dies for whoever's sin and raised himself from the dead

Originally posted by Thabotizz:

The big bad Yahweh came into the world and redeemed himself by healing the sick and raising the dead? To top it off he dies for whoever's sin and raised himself from the dead

Quite the sadistical bugger, isn't he?

that's cool! He is the man!