The Euro Fund

The Euro Fund

The silence here on Europe's "Problem" is deafening. My guess is that the "Problem" may have been over-hyped here. Is that the case, or are our posters simply immune to press-panic (or however you'd put it)?

I'd go with overhyped on this side of the atlantic. What german news I've been reading still has to get anywhere near panic.

Do you have a good source in English. My German is almost like my Tibetan.
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One wag recently put the Greek situation as follows:

This isn't the way we (Greeks) do things in this country. We deliberate in private, then tell the Greek people what we are going to do. And they can like or lump it. What is all this public accountability nonsense? In Greece, we pay people to vote for us, either with real bribes or with the prospect of a job for life.

Naturally, the writer wasn't even a Greek!

i surely will start to get uneasy as soon as other PII(G)S start to get in serious trouble ... there's already a discussion about cutting some subsidies in DE

Originally posted by Jaybro:

My German is almost like my Tibetan.

Try this http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tagesschau.de%2Finland%2Fkabinetteuro100.html&sl=auto&tl=en

Also: http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2542107.ece/Merkel_now_has_to_prove_her_worth_as_crisis_manager and http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2541608.ece/Crisis_coerces_EU_members_into_ever_closer_union

Originally posted by NoobSaibot:

i surely will start to get uneasy as soon as other PII(G)S start to get in serious trouble ... there's already a discussion about cutting some subsidies in DE

There's been talk about cutting subsidies one way or another since forever.
Let's cut <whatever> but wait till after the next election so moron voters won't vote against us!

usually there's talk about taxes and whether they want to

1. lower or
2. raise them, or
3. to reform the system yet again

there was no discussion about cutting subsidies in the recent past that i'd be aware of; however, chances are that i simply missed it

agriculture subsidies was the last that i remember.

There are a number of semi-related issues. The Greek financial crisis, the In Euro We Trust issue, and how the State of Europe can be (ab)used in US domestic politics.

The Greek thing has a separate thread, the Greek economy is a small part of the Eurozone, but the consistent worry is of contagion and, what should be familiar enough in this crisis, what if everyone jumps off a cliff, and particularly the worry that everyone will jump off a cliff precisely because we worry about whether we will do it? The temporal solution, as you Americans should be familiar with, is to build a wall of money so tall that nobody should be able to jump over it into the abyss.

This particular wall of money consists of money already allocated (that too should be familiar) plus another cool 440,000,000,000€ in loans and guarantees, with the IMF adding something in the neighbourhood of 250,000,000,000€. China was reportedly relieved by the news, the stock market is jittery but not suicidal, and nary a bank has been run down the last week, and there is plenty of self-righteousness everywhere with the question echoing "Why do we have to pay for this?"

For German news in English, try Spiegel Online International. You will find that the Germans are just as self-absorbed as everyone else.

Originally posted by NoobSaibot:

usually there's talk about taxes and whether they want to

1. lower or
2. raise them, or
3. to reform the system yet again

Every new government in the past 30 or so years ( probably more ) set out to simplify and 'reform' the tax code and ended up doing the opposite

Originally posted by NoobSaibot:

there was no discussion about cutting subsidies in the recent past that i'd be aware of; however, chances are that i simply missed it

agriculture subsidies was the last that i remember.

That's been up for ages, same with coal subsidies ( which they finally managed to kill just a few years ago IIRC )

Originally posted by jax:

For German news in English, try Spiegel Online International. You will find that the Germans are just as self-absorbed as everyone else.

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And here I thought it was only us!
(Thanks for the link.)

Originally posted by Jaybro:

Originally posted by jax:

For German news in English, try Spiegel Online International. You will find that the Germans are just as self-absorbed as everyone else.

.........................................
And here I thought it was only us!
(Thanks for the link.)

That's domestic news for you. On the other hand, putting international news there makes little sense - foreigners would read that particular site (mostly) for german issues. The german site is quite a bit more international.
But otherwise - yeah, german media in general aren't that different from all the rest. Big surprise, isn't it?

Originally posted by Macallan:

On the other hand, putting international news there makes little sense - foreigners would read that particular site (mostly) for german issues. The german site is quite a bit more international.

But then this Greek tragedy is a German domestic issue. I think for instance the Spiegel's How German Companies Bribed Their Way to Greek Deals is good reading materal for Non-Germans and Non-Greeks alike.

Originally posted by jax:

But then this Greek tragedy is a German domestic issue. I think for instance the Spiegel's How German Companies Bribed Their Way to Greek Deals is good reading materal for Non-Germans and Non-Greeks alike.

A relative who works for Siemens, and who I am sure hasn't a clue of what's going on, will love this.

That trading balance sheet is a tipoff that something is wrong. At any rate, I wouldn't want to be in the Greek government at the moment. Where is Socrates when you need him.

There should be a growth market in hemlock.

Originally posted by Macallan:

Every new government in the past 30 or so years ( probably more ) set out to simplify and 'reform' the tax code and ended up doing the opposite

You can say a lot of bad things about Hitler, but he did actually do that in Germany and all the occupied areas.

I guess you need a dictator to get something that isn't horribly complex due to all the compromises.

Oh well. It's a small price to pay for freedom.

Originally posted by Macallan:

But otherwise - yeah, german media in general aren't that different from all the rest. Big surprise, isn't it?

Aside from the dubbing of every foreigner that appears on the news I like the ARD better than anything else. Although lately they've been a bit Germany-obsessed with the whole Greece thing. Then again, so have all the other media. The only thing that's different is which politicians and political crises they pay the most attention to.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I guess you need a dictator to get something that isn't horribly complex due to all the compromises.

The tax code was greatly simplified in Norway well over a decade ago, by a cross-parliamentary compromise. The trick I think was to make all parties agree on the major issues and forego the squiggly little ones. The code may have grown a little cruft since, but still not on the level of the pre-compromise code.

Simple tax codes, if well crafted, make most everyone win, and a powerful tool against tax dodging.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

You can say a lot of bad things about Hitler, but...

My normal reaction to that opening would be to cringe, but since I trust you, I read to the end of your statement.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

You can say a lot of bad things about Hitler, but he did actually do that in Germany and all the occupied areas.

I guess you need a dictator to get something that isn't horribly complex due to all the compromises.

Oh well. It's a small price to pay for freedom.
[

Don't forget Mussolini. He got the trains running on time.

You can probably replace Hitler with any dictator who doesn't have excrements for brains. Perhaps Napoleon would've been a less loaded one, though I'm not sure what his tax laws were.

Originally posted by OnetimePoster:

Don't forget Mussolini. He got the trains running on time.

For some reason I now have that Blame It On The Boys song by Mika in my head now, except with "blame it on the trains"

Originally posted by jax:

Originally posted by Macallan:

On the other hand, putting international news there makes little sense - foreigners would read that particular site (mostly) for german issues. The german site is quite a bit more international.

But then this Greek tragedy is a German domestic issue.

Obviously, since Germany will have to pay a substantial part of the bailout.

Originally posted by jax:

I think for instance the Spiegel's How German Companies Bribed Their Way to Greek Deals is good reading materal for Non-Germans and Non-Greeks alike.

Of course. As I said - german issues made accessible to foreigners.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Every new government in the past 30 or so years ( probably more ) set out to simplify and 'reform' the tax code and ended up doing the opposite

You can say a lot of bad things about Hitler, but he did actually do that in Germany and all the occupied areas.

Godwin!

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I guess you need a dictator to get something that isn't horribly complex due to all the compromises.

The problem, as far as I can tell, isn't so much the complexity but what causes the complexity - over the years the tax code got more and more convoluted with privileges, exemptions and whatnot for lots and lots of groups which all vote and of course don't want to lose theirs. So instead of getting rid of everything and starting over every new government ended up adjusting some tax privileges and then adding some more and trying to sell that as 'reform'.

For Greece: -1billion + 1billion borrowed @?% interest= 1billion borrowed @?% debt. They should nationalise everything and bring in 50% tax, see Danish tax system.

BTW I played outside left(11) for a provincial team that went undefeated in the 50's

Come on now folks. Admit capitalism is a failed system,as was communism , dhu.

Originally posted by leftwing:

Come on now folks. Admit capitalism is a failed system,as was communism , dhu.

When did capitalism fail, I can't recall any market failure EVER, sounds like a pretty impressive track record. When the invisible hand of the market seems to fail is is always the all to visible hand of government interfering in the markets that cause the failure. Free markets never fail.

Originally posted by arghwashier:

When did capitalism fail, I can't recall any market failure EVER, sounds like a pretty impressive track record.

I'm not on board with leftwing or anything, but isn't that kind of what happened in 1929?

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by arghwashier:

When did capitalism fail, I can't recall any market failure EVER, sounds like a pretty impressive track record.

I'm not on board with leftwing or anything, but isn't that kind of what happened in 1929?

Nope, it was Federal Reserve credit expansion which caused the stock market bubble to grow. The 1929 crash and subsequent foolish policies bt Hoover and even more so by FDR is what caused the great depression.

To understand why this happens you need to first know what money really is and what it isn't, you also need to see it created I guess before you can really understand it, watch this video it is an excellent video on (central) banking and money creation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYZM58dulPE

Saw it long ago. I'm fairly sure it's available on Google Video in higher quality. But anyway, then communism didn't fail either. That was just the Soviet Union's ridiculous planned economy.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Saw it long ago. But anyway, then communism didn't fail either. That was just the Soviet Union's ridiculous planned economy.

Well what else could they do but make half baked plans? To each according to his needs and to each according to his capabilities would have created an absolute chaos immediately. Without money available and a free market pricing mechanism there would be no way to know which goods and services were in demand(in a free market economy the price will go down, production will go down free resources for other more needed goods) and which were overproduced (in a free market economy the price will go up, production will go up and more resources will be used). So planners had to step in and try and figure this out and of course they failed miserably.

Alright, fair enough.

Very wrong Frenzie generally Communism has failed. It is amazing how open minds want to whitewash and sanitise history. Odd.

I consider the Soviet Union a horrible nightmare. That doesn't' change that it took them almost a century to fail economically. The really scary thing right now is a nation like China imo.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

The really scary thing right now is a nation like China imo.

You mean where capitalism meets central "?
http://video.pbs.org/video/1218530801/

Originally posted by Jaybro:

You mean where capitalism meets central "?

http://video.pbs.org/video/1218530801/

I can't watch that video due to region-based rights restrictions, but I mean how it's a technologically modern society (at least in most of the cities) that still lives under heavy government censorship and control. In some ways it's just like 1984.

Try this, Frenzie.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1223747/Ghost-mall-The-worlds-largest-loneliest-shopping-centre.html

Wow, that's pretty crazy. Personally I prefer our European shopping streets over American malls. A place like Woodfield is certainly worth a visit, but I have a sense of missing something while I'm in it. Interestingly there did seem to be some birds living in all malls I visited.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

It is amazing how open minds want to whitewash and sanitise history. Odd.

Quite true Mr. Howie.
You remind me of this fact every time you post.
(Which about 70% of the time is "Damn those ex-colonists, they are the epitome of newfangeledry bumboozlement!")

Originally posted by arghwashier:

you need to first know what money really is and what it isn't,

Paper money is a fairly new invention. Paper money is called fiat money. All fiat money becomes worthless sooner or later and it all depends on when the consensus changes in the assumption that paper money is worth something. When there is no longer an agreement that fiat currencies are worth something, they are no longer valuable beyond the paper they are printed on. Paper money is an illusion.

Originally posted by leftwing:

Paper money is a fairly new invention. Paper money is called fiat money. All fiat money becomes worthless sooner or later and it all depends on when the consensus changes in the assumption that paper money is worth something. When there is no longer an agreement that fiat currencies are worth something, they are no longer valuable beyond the paper they are printed on. Paper money is an illusion.

Yup and now that the ECB has decided it will monetize debt (ie. print new money to buy government bonds) I think the moment the euro becomes worthless will come sooner rather than later.


It is unbelievable how even the presidents of the ECB or IMF really understand economics. Welcome to Weimar-Europe.....Solving the crisis is so easy: deregulate the markets, cut government spending and cut taxes, let go bankrupt what the markets say should be bankrupt, there is no such entity too big too fail

Interest rates are at a usury level, money is not supposed to be a commodity. Visa?

Originally posted by jax:

There are a number of semi-related issues. The Greek financial crisis, the In Euro We Trust issue, and how the State of Europe can be (ab)used in US domestic politics.

And this one:

Originally posted by wikipedia:

Vladimir Konstantinovich Bukovsky is a notable former Soviet political dissident, author and political activist. Bukovsky was one of the first to expose the use of psychiatric imprisonment against political prisoners in the Soviet Union. He spent a total of twelve years in Soviet prisons, labor camps and in psikhushkas, forced-treatment psychiatric hospitals used by the government as special prisons.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/budget/7806064/Euro-will-be-dead-in-five-years.html

Euro 'will be dead in five years'

'telegraph.co.uk' The Telegraph is hardly the best source on the €. That paper has declered it dead in five years or less for about a decade now.

Originally posted by jax:

'telegraph.co.uk' The Telegraph is hardly the best source on the €.

*Shrugs shoulders*

Originally posted by jax:

That paper has declered it dead in five years or less for about a decade now.

True, but it also didn't have to contend with the possibility of Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain defaulting in 2000.
Personally, I like the fact that the Euro's value continues to drop against the $.
More than once I have reconsidered my choice of exchange school because of the strengthening of the greenback vs the euro.
Has the Euro's value ever been so low that for $1.19 you could buy a Euro?
(Yeah, I didn't keep up with trading values back in 1999.)

Both currencies are racing each other to the bottom, I would own real money (gold or silver) to protect myself against euro devaluation not dollars.

You should be more concerned about the £ and the $ if coming to GB thedawgfan.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Personally, I like the fact that the Euro's value continues to drop against the $.
More than once I have reconsidered my choice of exchange school because of the strengthening of the greenback vs the euro.
Has the Euro's value ever been so low that for $1.19 you could buy a Euro?
(Yeah, I didn't keep up with trading values back in 1999.)

A relative strengthening is good for tourism of course. But really over longer time an exchange rate is just a number. It is changes in exchange rates that matter.

The EUR/USD rate was at USD 1.19 back in 2006, at the lowest it was USD 0.83, and at start it was pretty much like it is today, before falling further relative to the dollar. This was a sweet spot for lazy exchange calculation, with the relationship euro:dollar:yen 1:1:100.