What is the way forward in Palestine?

What is the way forward in Palestine?

A short post this time!
I am always very unhappy with the situation in the Middle East. Is the continuous conflict religious or political?
I suggest we we identify the problems and solution, so as to design an everlasting peace between the children of Father Abraham -- The Ishmaelites (Arabs) and the Israelites.

Its a complete and utter time you doing this post ,why because many are Pro Israel .

Not me boy. Once we have bombed Greece it can be next. Neat. Those left can be taken in by the USA and save them billions. Problem solved!

Not sure but I think he is inferring none of the above.

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

What is the way forward in Palestine?

Quite simple.
Firstly, until the majority of the US citizenry gets their respective heads out of ancient books of literature (bible), the situation will never be fully resolved. The US single-handedly props us the most damnable gov't the world has ever seen since 1933-1945. (Which, in itself, is quite ironic)
The Zionist gov't of Israel commits murder, discrimination, segregation on a level that could even surpass nazi Germany.
We, the US, supply the thugs who run Israel's gov't. Most people look at me like I have lost my mind when I say I do not support Israel's gov't.

Secondly, seeing as how the numerous fundies in the US have dug their respective holes for their heads for the foreseeable future, Europe must take the lead and challenge the US's unquestionable support of Israel. They should send in covert people to record the atrocities that the Israeli gov't condones and encourages.

I will ponder on the issue a bit more and post more later on....

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

The Zionist gov't of Israel commits murder, discrimination, segregation on a level that could even surpass nazi Germany.

Not even close - has anyone seen any death camps pop up in the desert yet? Industrial style, organized extermination?
If at all it's probably comparable to apartheit South Africa, to some degree.

Also, the other side isn't any better these days - dominated by Hamas and Hizbollah, both fundamentalist islamic organizations supported by foreign powers. They don't know what they lost with that ex-terrorist turned moderate Arafat.

Originally posted by Macallan:

Industrial style, organized extermination?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2663394274574391248#

Originally posted by Macallan:

has anyone seen any death camps pop up in the desert yet?

Times have changed, and so have the methods.

Originally posted by Macallan:

If at all it's probably comparable to apartheit South Africa, to some degree.

Does that make it any less damnable?

Originally posted by Macallan:

Also, the other side isn't any better these days - dominated by Hamas and Hizbollah, both fundamentalist islamic organizations supported by foreign powers.

Quite true. However, Israeli power compared to Palestinian power is like comparing a volcano to a toothpick.
I mean after all, the Berlin falls and the Wall in Israel goes up (well, it went up before then, but...).
Security checkpoints disappear in Berlin only for them to pop up in Israel.

Originally posted by Macallan:

They don't know what they lost with that ex-terrorist turned moderate Arafat.

Indeed. Still, I do wonder why Israel put in the PM post, our equivalent to George W. Bush?

It's a country with a lot of bitter internal situations and very split.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Not me boy. Once we have bombed Greece it can be next. Neat. Those left can be taken in by the USA and save them billions. Problem solved!

do you think your be there when it happens .

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

What is the way forward in Palestine?

Quite simple.
Firstly, until the majority of the US citizenry gets their respective heads out of ancient books of literature (bible), the situation will never be fully resolved. The US single-handedly props us the most damnable gov't the world has ever seen since 1933-1945. (Which, in itself, is quite ironic)
The Zionist gov't of Israel commits murder, discrimination, segregation on a level that could even surpass nazi Germany.
We, the US, supply the thugs who run Israel's gov't. Most people look at me like I have lost my mind when I say I do not support Israel's gov't.

Secondly, seeing as how the numerous fundies in the US have dug their respective holes for their heads for the foreseeable future, Europe must take the lead and challenge the US's unquestionable support of Israel. They should send in covert people to record the atrocities that the Israeli gov't condones and encourages.

I will ponder on the issue a bit more and post more later on....

Nice one ,
so true so true .

Today we commemorate al nakba, declaration of Israeli State.
Over 200 villages were ethnically cleansed in the six months before 14 May 1948.
Today 7 million of the 11 million Palestinians around the world are refugees or displaced people. 530 villages and towns destroyed, over the past 9 years alone 10,000 homes were destroyed in West Bank,Gaza& Negev.
END THE OCCUPATION OF PALESTINE
how you move forward ???

On Nakba Day, tell the government to take action now:
Free Palestine!

Saturday 15 May, 12-2pm

Opposite 10 Downing Street, London SW1 (nearest tube Westminster)

We demand the government:

End Israel's violations of international law, including ending its illegal occupation and building of settlements
End the siege on Gaza
Support bringing Israeli war criminals to justice - no attack on universal jurisdiction
Ban settlement goods
Suspend the EU-Israel Association Agreement
End the arms trade with Israel
Organised by: Palestine Solidarity Campaign, British Muslim Initiative, Stop the War Coalition, CND and the Palestinian Forum in Britain.

Supported by: Association of the Palestinian Community UK, Friends of Lebanon, the Green Party, ICAHD UK, Jews for Justice for Palestinians, Liberal Democrats Friends of Palestine, Pax Christi, Public and Commercial Services Union, UNISON, UNITE the Union, Zaytoun.

UK Wide events

Saturday 15 May around the UK - National Nakba Day of Action

AberPSC is marking Nakba Day at the Morlan Centre in Aberystwyth, with a screening, readings of first-hand accounts from 1948, songs by Cor Gobaith anda stall. Mark Williams (LibDem), sitting MP for Ceredigion, will be guest of honour. The event will begin at 7.00 pm. During the day: leafleting about the Nakba

Birmingham: Sunday 16 May 2-4pm Remember the millions of Palestinian refugees - End Israeli Occupation and oppression. 62 years ago the formation of the Israeli state through the means of ethnic cleansing created the largest and longest lasting refugee situation in the world. Join in Birmingham's part of the international commemoration of this event where we will be leafleting and petitioning for a boycott and sanctions on Israel until it obeys international law, respects Palestinian rights and dismantles its apartheid structures. Organised by West Midlands Palestine Solidarity Campaign. Venue : New Street (Victoria Square end) Birmingham.

Bradford: join us at the United4Palestine stall this Saturday, 1pm-3pm, Darley Street (junction with Kirkgate) to mark this day. Please join us for 20,30,40 or even 62 minutes to raise awareness of this ongoing Nakbah and to inform people about how to break the siege.

Brighton: street theatre and leafleting on Saturday 2:30pm outside Theatre Royal, New Road

Bristol PSC: Peace vigil in the town centre and action focusing on the Co-op.

Cambridge 62 years since the creation of the State of Israel - 43 years of military occupation - As Israel plans 50,000 new housing units in East Jerusalem* (*Haaretz.com 11.03.10). Please join us for some or all of the time In solidarity with the Palestinian people. Market Square, Saturday 15th May. Silent Vigil: 1.30 - 2.30 // Words and Music: 2.30 - 3.30. Your participation welcomed. Organised by Cambridge Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Supported by Cambridge Stop the War

Exeter: WATAN - Commemorating PALESTINIAN NAKBA on 15 May 2010 From 7pm-9pm - St.Sidwell's Community Centre, St. Sidwell's Street, Exeter. Come with a friend to light a candle and to listen to testimonies from Gaza- Palestinians from over all Palestine will be there to share their experiences

Halifax Friends of Palestine Nakba Commemoration. 14th - 16th May 2010 "Dreams of Home" an exhibition of photographs by children of Aida Refugee Camp, Bethlehem at the Arts Festival Office, Albert Street, Hebden Bridge. The exhibition ends on Sunday 16th May at 1.30pm with a talk by Karen Abi-ezzi of Bradford University entitled "The Palestinian Nakba : Reasons to Remember".

Leeds: Nakba Day - Boycott Israel Flash Mob across city centre shops from 1.30pm - Email for details: leedspsc@googlemail.com

Leicester PSC stall and rally on Saturday 15th. May at 1-2p.m. at the Clock tower in the City Centre.

Liverpool Friends of Palestine: mass leafleting in the city centre between 12-2pm - meeting-point is the BBC Big Screen between the central Tesco and the Clayton Square shopping centre.

Manchester PSC: stall/mass leaflet in the middle of Market Street (outside Tesco) on Saturday 15th May at 12 Noon. Please come and support our action in Manchester - any further details contact Chris Roberts at chris.roberts@manchester.ac.uk

Norwich PSC: Nakba stall in the Norwich Forum to draw attention to Nakba Day

Oxford: Oxford PSC will hold a stall marking Nakba Day, at the Levellers' Day event in Burford, Oxfordshire (see: www.levellers.org.uk for details of the day and how to get there)
+ Supermarket picket organised by students - leafleting to raise awareness of illegal settlement goods sold in British supermarkets. Place: Waitrose, 9-11 Old High Street, Headington OX3 9JT; Time: 2pm
+ Nakba Vigil organised by Oxford PSC with students - Candle-lit vigil and public reading of the names of villages destroyed in 1948 Place: Cornmarket Street,Oxford, adjacent to St. Michael's Church Time: 6pm

Portsmouth and South Downs PSC: May 15th, which is Conscientious Objectors Day as well as Nakba Day, SE Hants Peace Council are holding a meeting in the Havant United Reformed Church, North St, Havant, PO9 1PP, at 7pm With 2 shministim as speakers, Or Ben David & Yuval Auron. PSDPSC is supporting this meeting.

Sheffield PSC Saturday 15th May: Nakba day; Assemble at Sheffield town Hall at 11 a.m. Calling for an end to the occupation and we'll be handing out boycott leaflets round the city centre.

Open to anyone ...if interested ...

If you mean a period of time Juggalo1 I cannot answer that!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

If you mean a period of time Juggalo1 I cannot answer that!

shame i would have liked your imput .

Imput! Imput! Imput!

Input! input! input?....would that not be better??

Arab/Israeli monopoly, Pass Go...suicide...go straight to Paradise.

solve a lot of problems.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Input! input! input?....would that not be better??

Hmmm! something caught my ... it's a impostor! Seize him!

I have never been a fan of Israel and have said this very strongly here and I am not surprised that thedawgfan gets incredulous looks from his fellow Ex-Colonists. They are hidebound by Biblical interpretations and have repeatedly said so in some kind of roundabout looking after the poor Jew.

Israel has also used history, emotion and any old thing to justify everything they do so that means we are supposed to let them get on with it. Their spokesmen have indicated on tv that they don't car a damn what the rest of the world says or thinks they will stomp, shoot, burn out any opposition. They blitzkrieg with great gusto although their last foray in Lebanon seen the IDF scuttle back with their tail between their legs. That the US taxpayer is paying big bucks for this ME almost fascist style approach is a millstone around their neck and doing their cred internationally as much good as old red socks coming to Glasgow (!). War and death in any scenario are tragic but in hindsight I wish to Hell they had lost the 6 Day War all those years ago.

Originally posted by leftwing:

Arab/Israeli monopoly, Pass Go...suicide...go straight to Paradise.

says the man who

That the World Trade Center was destroyed by Israeli agents

Originally posted by rjhowie:

They are hidebound by Biblical interpretations and have repeatedly said so in some kind of roundabout looking after the poor Jew.

Strangely enough, seeing as how you have made it very clear that you are a staunch Presbyterian, how did you not wind up doing the same thing?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Israel has also used history, emotion and any old thing to justify everything they do so that means we are supposed to let them get on with it.

I don't support Israel I would cut off all military aid, and let Europe deal with it, They caused it.
Americas policy has been to prevent the, "The Sampson Option."

How Israel became a nuclear power.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel

French Aid

The French decision to help Israel build a nuclear reactor was not without precedent; in September 1955 Canada publicly announced that it would help the Indian government build a heavy-water research reactor for "peaceful purposes."[16] When Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal, France asked Israel to cross the Sinai in order to justify its and Britain's invasion of Egypt (see Suez Crisis), and Shimon Peres, sensing the opportunity on the nuclear reactor, accepted. On 17 September 1956, Peres and Bergmann reached a tentative agreement in Paris for the CEA to sell Israel a small research reactor. This was reaffirmed by Peres at the Protocol of Sèvres conference in late October for the sale of a reactor to be built near Dimona and for a supply of uranium fuel.[17] After the Suez Crisis led to the threat of Soviet intervention and the British and French were being forced to withdraw under pressure from the US, Ben-Gurion sent Peres and Golda Meir to France. During their discussions the groundwork was laid for France to build a larger nuclear reactor and chemical reprocessing plant, and French Prime Minister Guy Mollet, ashamed at having abandoned his commitment to fellow socialists in Israel, supposedly told an aide, "I owe the bomb to them."[18]
This deal was finalized on 3 October 1957 in two agreements: one political that declared the project to be for peaceful purposes and specified other legal obligations, and one technical that described a 24 megawatt EL-102 reactor. The one to actually be built was to be two to three times as large[19] and be able to produce 22 kilograms of plutonium a year.[20]
French Prime Minister Guy Mollet "I owe the bomb to them."

British Aid

Top secret British documents[25][26] obtained by BBC Newsnight show that Britain made hundreds of secret shipments of restricted materials to Israel in the 1950s and 1960s. These included specialist chemicals for reprocessing and samples of fissile material—uranium-235 in 1959, and plutonium in 1966, as well as highly enriched lithium-6 which is used to boost fission bombs and fuel hydrogen bombs.[27] The investigation also showed that Britain shipped 20 tons of heavy water directly to Israel in 1959 and 1960 to start up the Dimona reactor.[28] The transaction was made through a Norwegian front company called Noratom which took a 2% commission on the transaction. Britain was challenged about the heavy water deal at the International Atomic Energy Agency after it was exposed on Newsnight in 2005. British Foreign Minister Kim Howells claimed this was a sale to Norway. But a former British intelligence officer who investigated the deal at the time confirmed that this was really a sale to Israel and the Noratom contract was just a charade.[29] The Foreign Office finally admitted in March 2006 that Britain knew the destination was Israel all along.[30] Israel admits running the Dimona reactor with Norway's heavy water since 1963. French engineers who helped build Dimona say the Israelis were expert operators, so only a relatively small portion of the water were lost during the years past since the first operation of the reactor.[31]


http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/farr.htm

The two nations collaborated, with the United Kingdom, in planning and staging the Suez Canal-Sinai operation against Egypt in October 1956. The Suez Crisis became the real genesis of Israel's nuclear weapons production program. With the Czech-Egyptian arms agreement in 1955, Israel became worried. When absorbed, the Soviet-bloc equipment would triple Egyptian military strength. After Egypt's President Nasser closed the Straits of Tiran in 1953, Israeli Prime Minister Ben-Gurion ordered the development of chemical munitions and other unconventional munitions, including nuclear.[13] Six weeks before the Suez Canal operation, Israel felt the time was right to approach France for assistance in building a nuclear reactor. Canada had set a precedent a year earlier when it had agreed to build a 40-megawatt CIRUS reactor in India. Shimon Peres, the Director-General of the Defense Ministry and aide to Prime Minister (and Defense Minister) David Ben-Gurion, and Bergmann met with members of the CEA (France's Atomic Energy Commission). During September 1956, they reached an initial understanding to provide a research reactor. The two countries concluded final agreements at a secret meeting outside Paris where they also finalized details of the Suez Canal operation.[14]

For the United Kingdom and France, the Suez operation, launched on October 29, 1956, was a total disaster. Israel's part was a military success, allowing it to occupy the entire Sinai Peninsula by 4 November, but the French and British canal invasion on 6 November was a political failure. Their attempt to advance south along the Suez Canal stopped due to a cease-fire under fierce Soviet and U.S. pressure. Both nations pulled out, leaving Israel to face the pressure from the two superpowers alone. Soviet Premier Bulganin and President Khrushchev issued an implicit threat of nuclear attack if Israel did not withdraw from the Sinai.

On 7 November 1956, a secret meeting was held between Israeli foreign minister Golda Meir, Shimon Peres, and French foreign and defense ministers Christian Pineau and Maurice Bourges-Manoury. The French, embarrassed by their failure to support their ally in the operation, found the Israelis deeply concerned about a Soviet threat. In this meeting, they substantially modified the initial understanding beyond a research reactor. Peres secured an agreement from France to assist Israel in developing a nuclear deterrent. After further months of negotiation, agreement was reached for an 18-megawatt (thermal) research reactor of the EL-3 type, along with plutonium separation technology. France and Israel signed the agreement in October 1957.[15] Later the reactor was officially upgraded to 24 megawatts, but the actual specifications issued to engineers provided for core cooling ducts sufficient for up to three times this power level, along with a plutonium plant of similar capacity. Data from insider reports revealed in 1986 would estimate the power level at 125-150 megawatts.[16] The reactor, not connected to turbines for power production, needed this increase in size only to increase its plutonium production. How this upgrade came about remains unknown, but Bourges-Maunoury, replacing Mollet as French prime minister, may have contributed to it.[17] Shimon Peres, the guiding hand in the Israeli nuclear program, had a close relationship with Bourges-Maunoury and probably helped him politically.[18]

The Samson Option states that Moshe Dayan gave the go-ahead for starting weapon production in early 1968.
Having the bomb meant articulating, even if secretly, a use doctrine. In addition to the “Samson Option” of last resort, other triggers for nuclear use may have included successful Arab penetration of populated areas, destruction of the Israeli Air Force, massive air strikes or chemical/biological strikes on Israeli cities, and Arab use of nuclear weapons.[56]

On the afternoon of 6 October 1973, Egypt and Syria attacked Israel in a coordinated surprise attack, beginning the Yom Kippur War. Caught with only regular forces on duty, augmented by reservists with a low readiness level, Israeli front lines crumbled. By early afternoon on 7 October, no effective forces were in the southern Golan Heights and Syrian forces had reached the edge of the plateau, overlooking the Jordan River. This crisis brought Israel to its second nuclear alert.

Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, obviously not at his best at a press briefing, was, according to Time magazine, rattled enough to later tell the prime minister that “this is the end of the third temple,” referring to an impending collapse of the state of Israel. “Temple” was also the code word for nuclear weapons. Prime Minister Golda Meir and her “kitchen cabinet” made the decision on the night of 8 October. The Israelis assembled 13 twenty-kiloton atomic bombs. The number and in fact the entire story was later leaked by the Israelis as a great psychological warfare tool. Although most probably plutonium devices, one source reports they were enriched uranium bombs. The Jericho missiles at Hirbat Zachariah and the nuclear strike F-4s at Tel Nof were armed and prepared for action against Syrian and Egyptian targets. They also targeted Damascus with nuclear capable long-range artillery although it is not certain they had nuclear artillery shells.[62]

On 11 October, a counterattack on the Golan broke the back of Syria's offensive, and on 15 and 16 October, Israel launched a surprise crossing of the Suez Canal into Africa. Soon the Israelis encircled the Egyptian Third Army and it was faced with annihilation on the east bank of the Suez Canal, with no protective forces remaining between the Israeli Army and Cairo. The first U.S. flights arrived on 14 October.[63] Israeli commandos flew to Fort Benning, Georgia to train with the new American TOW anti-tank missiles and return with a C-130 Hercules aircraft full of them in time for the decisive Golan battle. American commanders in Germany depleted their stocks of missiles, at that time only shared with the British and West Germans, and sent them forward to Israel.[64]

Thus started the subtle, opaque use of the Israeli bomb to ensure that the United States kept its pledge to maintain Israel's conventional weapons edge over its foes.[65] There is significant anecdotal evidence that Henry Kissinger told President of Egypt, Anwar Sadat, that the reason for the U.S. airlift was that the Israelis were close to “going nuclear.”[66]


THUS STARTED AMERICAS INVOLVEMENT.

*gets the : popcorn: and ready for the coming vehement disagreement between Maxxthrust and Mr. Howie*

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

*gets the : popcorn: and " width="15" height="15"> ready for the coming vehement disagreement between Maxxthrust and Mr. Howie*

hell he can start without me..

Originally posted by Juggalo1:

says the man who

That the World Trade Center was destroyed by Israeli agents

Not my quote.

American was quite unilateral about it's political and money support for Israel because as i said the preoccupation with Biblical history. I am not going to be sidetracked by the book written above which is convoluted and randomly wandering. The reason for us thedawgfan not being so fanatical hung up as your fundamentalist wing is that that constituency does not hold any sway here. The tradition of the National Churches ensured a more stable, less emotional and sensible state of things.

America could bring Israel to heel in hours but instead is humiliated by Tel Aviv and the gauliter who is Prime Minister doing what he likes. That clown knows only too well that US fundies and hoodwinked by emotional history DC will continue to pump dollars in. It makes Israel apologists look like idiots always going on about sovereignty. The damn place couldn't last weeks if the US used it's profligate financial support as a lever.

Originally posted by MAXXTHRUST:

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Israel has also used history, emotion and any old thing to justify everything they do so that means we are supposed to let them get on with it.

I don't support Israel I would cut off all military aid, and let Europe deal with it, They caused it.
Americas policy has been to prevent the, "The Sampson Option."

How Israel became a nuclear power.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel

French Aid

The French decision to help Israel build a nuclear reactor was not without precedent; in September 1955 Canada publicly announced that it would help the Indian government build a heavy-water research reactor for "peaceful purposes."[16] When Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal, France asked Israel to cross the Sinai in order to justify its and Britain's invasion of Egypt (see Suez Crisis), and Shimon Peres, sensing the opportunity on the nuclear reactor, accepted. On 17 September 1956, Peres and Bergmann reached a tentative agreement in Paris for the CEA to sell Israel a small research reactor. This was reaffirmed by Peres at the Protocol of Sèvres conference in late October for the sale of a reactor to be built near Dimona and for a supply of uranium fuel.[17] After the Suez Crisis led to the threat of Soviet intervention and the British and French were being forced to withdraw under pressure from the US, Ben-Gurion sent Peres and Golda Meir to France. During their discussions the groundwork was laid for France to build a larger nuclear reactor and chemical reprocessing plant, and French Prime Minister Guy Mollet, ashamed at having abandoned his commitment to fellow socialists in Israel, supposedly told an aide, "I owe the bomb to them."[18]
This deal was finalized on 3 October 1957 in two agreements: one political that declared the project to be for peaceful purposes and specified other legal obligations, and one technical that described a 24 megawatt EL-102 reactor. The one to actually be built was to be two to three times as large[19] and be able to produce 22 kilograms of plutonium a year.[20]
French Prime Minister Guy Mollet "I owe the bomb to them."

British Aid

Top secret British documents[25][26] obtained by BBC Newsnight show that Britain made hundreds of secret shipments of restricted materials to Israel in the 1950s and 1960s. These included specialist chemicals for reprocessing and samples of fissile material—uranium-235 in 1959, and plutonium in 1966, as well as highly enriched lithium-6 which is used to boost fission bombs and fuel hydrogen bombs.[27] The investigation also showed that Britain shipped 20 tons of heavy water directly to Israel in 1959 and 1960 to start up the Dimona reactor.[28] The transaction was made through a Norwegian front company called Noratom which took a 2% commission on the transaction. Britain was challenged about the heavy water deal at the International Atomic Energy Agency after it was exposed on Newsnight in 2005. British Foreign Minister Kim Howells claimed this was a sale to Norway. But a former British intelligence officer who investigated the deal at the time confirmed that this was really a sale to Israel and the Noratom contract was just a charade.[29] The Foreign Office finally admitted in March 2006 that Britain knew the destination was Israel all along.[30] Israel admits running the Dimona reactor with Norway's heavy water since 1963. French engineers who helped build Dimona say the Israelis were expert operators, so only a relatively small portion of the water were lost during the years past since the first operation of the reactor.[31]


http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/farr.htm

The two nations collaborated, with the United Kingdom, in planning and staging the Suez Canal-Sinai operation against Egypt in October 1956. The Suez Crisis became the real genesis of Israel's nuclear weapons production program. With the Czech-Egyptian arms agreement in 1955, Israel became worried. When absorbed, the Soviet-bloc equipment would triple Egyptian military strength. After Egypt's President Nasser closed the Straits of Tiran in 1953, Israeli Prime Minister Ben-Gurion ordered the development of chemical munitions and other unconventional munitions, including nuclear.[13] Six weeks before the Suez Canal operation, Israel felt the time was right to approach France for assistance in building a nuclear reactor. Canada had set a precedent a year earlier when it had agreed to build a 40-megawatt CIRUS reactor in India. Shimon Peres, the Director-General of the Defense Ministry and aide to Prime Minister (and Defense Minister) David Ben-Gurion, and Bergmann met with members of the CEA (France's Atomic Energy Commission). During September 1956, they reached an initial understanding to provide a research reactor. The two countries concluded final agreements at a secret meeting outside Paris where they also finalized details of the Suez Canal operation.[14]

For the United Kingdom and France, the Suez operation, launched on October 29, 1956, was a total disaster. Israel's part was a military success, allowing it to occupy the entire Sinai Peninsula by 4 November, but the French and British canal invasion on 6 November was a political failure. Their attempt to advance south along the Suez Canal stopped due to a cease-fire under fierce Soviet and U.S. pressure. Both nations pulled out, leaving Israel to face the pressure from the two superpowers alone. Soviet Premier Bulganin and President Khrushchev issued an implicit threat of nuclear attack if Israel did not withdraw from the Sinai.

On 7 November 1956, a secret meeting was held between Israeli foreign minister Golda Meir, Shimon Peres, and French foreign and defense ministers Christian Pineau and Maurice Bourges-Manoury. The French, embarrassed by their failure to support their ally in the operation, found the Israelis deeply concerned about a Soviet threat. In this meeting, they substantially modified the initial understanding beyond a research reactor. Peres secured an agreement from France to assist Israel in developing a nuclear deterrent. After further months of negotiation, agreement was reached for an 18-megawatt (thermal) research reactor of the EL-3 type, along with plutonium separation technology. France and Israel signed the agreement in October 1957.[15] Later the reactor was officially upgraded to 24 megawatts, but the actual specifications issued to engineers provided for core cooling ducts sufficient for up to three times this power level, along with a plutonium plant of similar capacity. Data from insider reports revealed in 1986 would estimate the power level at 125-150 megawatts.[16] The reactor, not connected to turbines for power production, needed this increase in size only to increase its plutonium production. How this upgrade came about remains unknown, but Bourges-Maunoury, replacing Mollet as French prime minister, may have contributed to it.[17] Shimon Peres, the guiding hand in the Israeli nuclear program, had a close relationship with Bourges-Maunoury and probably helped him politically.[18]

The Samson Option states that Moshe Dayan gave the go-ahead for starting weapon production in early 1968.
Having the bomb meant articulating, even if secretly, a use doctrine. In addition to the “Samson Option” of last resort, other triggers for nuclear use may have included successful Arab penetration of populated areas, destruction of the Israeli Air Force, massive air strikes or chemical/biological strikes on Israeli cities, and Arab use of nuclear weapons.[56]

On the afternoon of 6 October 1973, Egypt and Syria attacked Israel in a coordinated surprise attack, beginning the Yom Kippur War. Caught with only regular forces on duty, augmented by reservists with a low readiness level, Israeli front lines crumbled. By early afternoon on 7 October, no effective forces were in the southern Golan Heights and Syrian forces had reached the edge of the plateau, overlooking the Jordan River. This crisis brought Israel to its second nuclear alert.

Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, obviously not at his best at a press briefing, was, according to Time magazine, rattled enough to later tell the prime minister that “this is the end of the third temple,” referring to an impending collapse of the state of Israel. “Temple” was also the code word for nuclear weapons. Prime Minister Golda Meir and her “kitchen cabinet” made the decision on the night of 8 October. The Israelis assembled 13 twenty-kiloton atomic bombs. The number and in fact the entire story was later leaked by the Israelis as a great psychological warfare tool. Although most probably plutonium devices, one source reports they were enriched uranium bombs. The Jericho missiles at Hirbat Zachariah and the nuclear strike F-4s at Tel Nof were armed and prepared for action against Syrian and Egyptian targets. They also targeted Damascus with nuclear capable long-range artillery although it is not certain they had nuclear artillery shells.[62]

On 11 October, a counterattack on the Golan broke the back of Syria's offensive, and on 15 and 16 October, Israel launched a surprise crossing of the Suez Canal into Africa. Soon the Israelis encircled the Egyptian Third Army and it was faced with annihilation on the east bank of the Suez Canal, with no protective forces remaining between the Israeli Army and Cairo. The first U.S. flights arrived on 14 October.[63] Israeli commandos flew to Fort Benning, Georgia to train with the new American TOW anti-tank missiles and return with a C-130 Hercules aircraft full of them in time for the decisive Golan battle. American commanders in Germany depleted their stocks of missiles, at that time only shared with the British and West Germans, and sent them forward to Israel.[64]

Thus started the subtle, opaque use of the Israeli bomb to ensure that the United States kept its pledge to maintain Israel's conventional weapons edge over its foes.[65] There is significant anecdotal evidence that Henry Kissinger told President of Egypt, Anwar Sadat, that the reason for the U.S. airlift was that the Israelis were close to “going nuclear.”[66]


THUS STARTED AMERICAS INVOLVEMENT.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I am not going to be sidetracked by....

...facts, alternative opinions or reality.

We know.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

America could bring Israel to heel in hours

No it couldn't. You're deluding yourself.

http://www.americantaskforce.org/in_media/pr/2010/01/26/1264482000

Originally posted by rjhowie:

The reason for us thedawgfan not being so fanatical hung up as your fundamentalist wing is that that constituency does not hold any sway here. The tradition of the National Churches ensured a more stable, less emotional and sensible state of things.

I see.

Oh yes it could garydenness. It give billions every year not just for the military but keeps the place open an fine you know it. If America was to say for example stop the money they would come to heel. Alternatively the storm troopers couldn't be paid nor many others for that and goodbye the sovereign State. Itt wouldn't happen in practicality but Tel Aviv just cannot exist without dollars keeping it afloat and you know that too.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Oh yes it could garydenness. It give billions every year not just for the military but keeps the place open an fine you know it. If America was to say for example stop the money they would come to heel. Alternatively the storm troopers couldn't be paid nor many others for that and goodbye the sovereign State. Itt wouldn't happen in practicality but Tel Aviv just cannot exist without dollars keeping it afloat and you know that too.

http://videopalestine.blogspot.com/2010/05/idf-nazi-style-dog-attack-on-99-year.html
no they have DOGS

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Originally posted by rjhowie:

The reason for us thedawgfan not being so fanatical hung up as your fundamentalist wing is that that constituency does not hold any sway here. The tradition of the National Churches ensured a more stable, less emotional and sensible state of things.

I see.

I wonder who is in charge....

Originally posted by Denny77:

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Originally posted by rjhowie:

The reason for us thedawgfan not being so fanatical hung up as your fundamentalist wing is that that constituency does not hold any sway here. The tradition of the National Churches ensured a more stable, less emotional and sensible state of things.

I see.

I wonder who is in charge....

Islam .

Trouble began before 1948
When Zionists founded the Israeli state
Zionism called for a Jewish homeland
But they picked Palestine as a land with no man
One major flaw with all of this:
They forgot the indigenous populace!
Native Arab Muslims and Christians
Didn’t they notice that something is missing?
They left native Arabs all out of their view
Zionism’s goals were heavily skewed
Newcomers settled up in the country-side
In separation just like Apartheid
Jewish roads, schools, and hospitals
But also paramilitary patrols

These are the seeds of 48’
From colonial control to the Jewish state
It’s not a mistake, though
It’s not a mistake, no
Life in exile, is that our fate?
Life in exile, that’s our fate?
Life in exile, that’s our fate?



They exiled us and stole our homes
Now all we have are old keys and new poems
They turned us into refugees
And uprooted us like our olive trees
…olive trees.



In 1917 the British gave away our nation
With Lord Balfour’s stupid declaration
They had no right to give it away
But guess what?
They did it anyway!
And once again the natives had no say
You know the British acted like they ruled the earth
And the Israelis think they got it by birth
Yeah right man!
Who lived on the land?
And who had to use force with their hand?
I’m surprised by this, they should know better
Then to move on our land as a settler
I mean that word says it all
Some say it’s not their choice, that it’s God’s call
But to me that’s called manifest destiny
I thought that went out of style in the last century
Now we’re held captive to their public opinion
As a Palestinian I feel more like an Indian
Driven into reservations
Living under occupation
As a shattered nation
A western creation



Last time, I went jogging in the park
But now we can’t go outside
Cuz we’ll get shot
Or as Benjamin Netanyahu might like to put it:
we jumped in front of that Israeli bullet.
But who can believe what that sucka say
He gotta be the biggest yoohoo alive today
So I searched yahoo for who’s the most sinister
It came back with Israel’s current prime minister
Ariel Sharon, a real cabron
I’d like to meet him in a dark alley and it’s on
He’d be the Penguin and I’d be Batman
My flurry of fists would sink that fat man
Like the Titanic
it’s time to panic
I can’t stand it
cuz’ we’re heading for the bottom of the Atlantic
Israel and America’s a sinking ship, if we don’t change it soon we’re going down with it.
I am jUGGALLAH JUGGOLO

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Oh yes it could garydenness. It give billions every year not just for the military but keeps the place open an fine you know it. If America was to say for example stop the money they would come to heel.

Rj, you should do a little research on these things before you post them. How much military aid per year? The numbers are out there. Other than such aid, there is no non-military aid to Israel, but there are loan guarantees, which are paid back on time.

What in the world does "open an fine" mean?

Largely, military aid to Israel is aid to U.S. military manufacturers and suppliers. "In FY 2007, the Department of State authorized the export of defense articles and services valued at $2,637,497,209." Guess who benefited most from that largess?

And,
"Aid is central to Washington's relationship with Cairo. The US has provided Egypt with $1.3 billion a year in military aid since 1979, and an average of $815 million a year in economic assistance. All told, Egypt has received over $50 billion in US largesse since 1975."

My humble assessment is that this has gone on for much too long and stems from our foolish, unwarranted involvement in Europe from the early '40s through the Soviet era. That kind of intrusiveness can become habitual, as you have observed. Had we just let matters take their course, there would be no Israel to mollycoddle. So we're more in agreement than otherwise, Rj.

Originally posted by Jaybro:

The numbers are out there.

Jaybro, you know that numbers and facts don't matter to him.

Originally posted by Jaybro:

What in the world does "open an fine" mean?

I wondered that myself.

I was hoping there was a translator here. Scots to English.

Originally posted by Juggalo1:

Islam

Mr Howie will be overjoyed to hear that.. Thank God I don't live on that Island.

i didn't read all of the ping pong here, but this is worth watching it, i think. vid

Bypassing the boy from the Mississippi always looking for support and I stick to adults- Denny77 you may be right about this wee island the way things are going. We don't have to worry about Israeli's taking over it's "them". By the end of this century we will be well Islamified. Jaybro you sidetrack and must remember that it is your country's vast largess that keeps Israel open. It follows that even to an elementary mind that armies have to be paid and shells produced or bought so not-picking is pointless waffling away from the kernel.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Oh yes it could garydenness.

On no it couldnt Howie. If you switch off the anti semitism button (behind your left ear....just keep pressing) and bother to investigate the facts, figures, political considerations, Israeli industry etc etc.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

taking over it's "them"

Who´s them, RJ? I smell prejudice.....

Originally posted by rjhowie:

t follows that even to an elementary mind that armies have to be paid and shells produced or bought so not-picking is pointless waffling away from the kernel.

Guess what Howie. You´re wrong. Again.

Originally posted by Denny77:

Originally posted by Juggalo1:

Islam

Mr Howie will be overjoyed to hear that.. Thank God I don't live on that Island.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Bypassing the boy from the Mississippi always looking for support and I stick to adults- Denny77 you may be right about this wee island the way things are going. We don't have to worry about Israeli's taking over it's "them". By the end of this century we will be well Islamified. Jaybro you sidetrack and must remember that it is your country's vast largess that keeps Israel open. It follows that even to an elementary mind that armies have to be paid and shells produced or bought so not-picking is pointless waffling away from the kernel.

you will not be around so dont stress ..

>Originally posted by >R.SOLE
<blockquote class="bbquote"><p>says the man who <blockquote class="bbquote"><p>That the World Trade Center was destroyed by Israeli agents</p></p></blockquote>[/quote]

Originally posted by leftwing:

>Originally posted by >R.SOLE

says the man who

That the World Trade Center was destroyed by Israeli agents

[/quote] true blue true blue

Sharon and the other Israeli leaders aspire to fulfil what the goals of the political Zionist movement have been since its origin a century ago: to turn all of historic Palestine into an exclusively Jewish state. A central tenet of the Zionist ideology is expressed in the racist slogan, "A land without people for a people without a land." (38)
The implication of Palestinians in the 9/11 attacks would have handed Zionists a golden opportunity to achieve the above because all Palestinians would have been labelled terrorists.
On the day of the 9-11 attacks, former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was asked what the attacks would mean for US-Israeli relations. His quick reply was: "It's very good…….Well, it's not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy (for Israel)

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Bypassing the boy from the Mississippi always looking for support

What a load of crap!
I need no support at all.
Hell, if me needing support was the case, do you think I would stand alone in about 4 neighboring counties in calling for the formation of a Palestinian state?

I think the USA should save money by closing down Israel and then moving the population over to the good ole' US of A. Reckon the Ex-Colonies could save money if they were all nearer?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I think the USA should save money by closing down Israel and then moving the population over to the good ole' US of A. Reckon the Ex-Colonies could save money if they were all nearer?

I'd rather they finish taking the Scots. They did 90% of the job, and then seem to have left the dregs behind, to pollute my island. Enough is enough!

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Bypassing the boy from the Mississippi always looking for support

What a load of crap!
I need no support at all.

tell him dawg! You could swear if he is not trolling, he does that!

Originally posted by garydenness:

I'd rather they finish taking the Scots.

Not no, but hell no!

Originally posted by garydenness:

They did 90% of the job, and then seem to have left the dregs behind, to pollute my island. Enough is enough!

Well, I suppose we could take the Scots from Edinburgh, the UK must keep Glasgow and Gordon Brown though, deal?

Originally posted by Thabotizz:

tell him dawg! You could swear if he is not trolling, he does that!

Irony is always amusing, is it not?

And now the SA acolyte is an expert on trolling now as well? That's another simple guy looking up to you whether you want the awe or not?

What is confounding me ... how the terrorist have the level of sophistication to take over the controls of a sophisticated airliner jet plane to be able to fly accurately into targets like hitting dead center into the Pentagon which is a low building?"If many of them had never flown a jet of that size before ,we all know it can take pilots years to perfect this .But we do know a computer controlled is always on accurate for to proceede with this .
Off topic but then not off topic .

Thank you for a compliment, rj.

Originally posted by Jaybro:

My humble assessment is that this has gone on for much too long and stems from our foolish, unwarranted involvement in Europe from the early '40s through the Soviet era. That kind of intrusiveness can become habitual, as you have observed. Had we just let matters take their course, there would be no Israel to mollycoddle. So we're more in agreement than otherwise, Rj.

If America would only stop involvement overseas and deal with our own problems.... IF IF IF

Originally posted by garydenness:

I'd rather they finish taking the Scots. They did 90% of the job, and then seem to have left the dregs behind, to pollute my island. Enough is enough!

Israel will continue to be the niggle boy of the ME because it exists and shouldn't. Unfortunately it is a fact of life therefor with much effort I have to say it is entitled having been around for so long. Now if only their benefactors would take them in. Maybe Arizona Would boost the economy of that State? I nearly said Michigan but Jaybro is entitled now to a quiet life away from the mundanes of existence?

Ten dead as Israel storms aid ships, sparking outcry
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE64T21120100531

I say the world puts forth a world-wide blockade on the State of Israel.
(Insert deity name of your choice)damn you Israel!
Have you no respect for human life? (Even your own citizens, some of whom are on board the ships!)

(Needless to say, I utterly condemn this attack.)

The White House response:

WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN WILLIAM BURTON The United States deeply regrets the loss of life and injuries sustained, and is currently working to understand the circumstances surrounding this tragedy.

or as is commonly known:

After Israel tell how us to play this, we'll spin a response to the U.N.

Boarding ships and killing people in international waters is not going to win Israel many friends. Even the Somali pirates have only have two known deaths (one of heart attack, and one Taiwanese murdered). I have already seen the comparison with the North Korean torpedo.

let's see what'll happen. source

Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy, a development with unpredictable consequences.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Israel will continue to be the niggle boy of the ME because it exists and shouldn't. Unfortunately it is a fact of life therefor with much effort I have to say it is entitled having been around for so long. Now if only their benefactors would take them in. Maybe Arizona Would boost the economy of that State? I nearly said Michigan but Jaybro is entitled now to a quiet life away from the mundanes of existence?

If it shouldn't, we have the League of Nations to blame, and, I suppose, the British who administered the Mandate for over twenty-five years.

John Kennedy was the primary initiator of unbridled support for Israel. Pullback is now grossly overdue.

But as a Michigander, I appreciate your keeping us out of it.

I keep thinking of male geese whenever I hear that.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I keep thinking of male geese whenever I hear that.

I try not to think of it at all. Actually, I prefer Michiganian, but it is less commonly used.

I can't say I've heard the latter.

So long as your memory works, you'll never be able to say that again.

Technically, I've only read it yet.

(yes, that wasn't what I meant when I said "heard" earlier - sue me )

You mean it could be written Michiganian but pronunced Michigander?

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Technically, I've only read it yet.

(yes, that wasn't what I meant when I said "heard" earlier - sue me )

Hmmmm....

I most certainly do wish to keep you out of the loop Jaybro. You have been tramping about the ex-Colonies and now settled in one place and I sure as H don't want to land several million Israelis onto your peace n' quiet. I wouldn't even do it to an Edinburgherer (?) so a Michigander, Michiganian - ehrm, harmless man from the State in question deserves the consideration too.

Originally posted by jax:

You mean it could be written Michiganian but pronunced Michigander?

That's certainly a possibility.

Originally posted by jax:

You mean it could be written Michiganian but pronunced Michigander?

That wouldn't even register on the Linguistic Insanity In The US scale

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I most certainly do wish to keep you out of the loop Jaybro. You have been tramping about the ex-Colonies and now settled in one place and I sure as H don't want to land several million Israelis onto your peace n' quiet. I wouldn't even do it to an Edinburgherer (?) so a Michigander, Michiganian - ehrm, harmless man from the State in question deserves the consideration too.

It might work, though, Rj. We have very few Palestinians here. Hell, I would grow sidelocks if it would make my new friends happy...that is, if I had anything left to grow them with. And I love matzos with peanut butter.

I would then become a Michigoyer. Lord, forgive me for these and all my other many transgressions.

flotilla Turkish Navy to Escort More Ships to Gaza
In a late-breaking development, Turkey has announced that they will send more ships to aid Gaza, and that this time they'll be accompanied by the Turkish Navy. This is a provocative and dangerous move, and one that is sure to raise tensions in the region.

The implications of Turkey's threat are unknown at this time. Avi Trengo, a columnist at an Israeli news site, implies (before Turkey's announcement) that in a showdown between the two countries, Israel is likely to cave first.
http://talkingskull.com/tag/user-tags/flotilla

Well the Turkish Navy has as much right as the IDF I reckon. The Israelis didn't wait until near the shore but made their blundering attack in international waters like pirates. They created the precedent and Israeli got away with it so why not the Turks this time. This will be a more interesting situation and I do hope the Turks use sizable escorts. What makes it worse for Tel Aviv is that Turkey was a country they had goodly relations with and business too - now the Turks say they can kiss goodbye to such.

Well, the Turks are muslims, so of course it's utterly different for them, lacking powerful allies that are willing to turn a blind eye to atrocities!
The EU are nominally allied, but won't ignore crimes for the Turks, as they do for the Israelis.

Still, they gained a lot of sympathy from this incident, and the Israelis lost it, among the EU. This may work out for them as it is.

Personally, I support their efforts to break the blockade.

It is a useless exercise to play GOD and attempt to determine who is right and who started what. The only realistic solution to end the violence is to separate the combatants. A wall seems to do the job extremely well. As for the blockade, Hamas is launching very few missiles into Israel nowadays.

Which is nice for Israel, but it comes at a huge humanitarian cost to the Palestinians.

A wall will not work, as both sides will not agree on borders. I am half convinced that the only viable option is to make Jerusalem an "international city", governed separately from both Israel and Palestine. A three state solution, if you will. A city state that allows both ready access to their holy sites, as well as Christians, and keeps the peace to the detriment of all else. The city would end up being impossible to create a proper business in, but it should remove some of the tensions.

Originally posted by grysmn:

It is a useless exercise to play GOD and attempt to determine who is right and who started what. The only realistic solution to end the violence is to separate the combatants.

A wall seems to do the job extremely well.

As for the blockade, Hamas is launching very few missiles into Israel nowadays.

A wall seems to do the job extremely well.

care to exsplain more

Originally posted by Redem:

Which is nice for Israel, but it comes at a huge humanitarian cost to the Palestinians.

A wall will not work, as both sides will not agree on borders. I am half convinced that the only viable option is to make Jerusalem an "international city", governed separately from both Israel and Palestine. A three state solution, if you will. A city state that allows both ready access to their holy sites, as well as Christians, and keeps the peace to the detriment of all else. The city would end up being impossible to create a proper business in, but it should remove some of the tensions.

As i feel nice answer this frankly will not happen .

In a military showdown/standoff between Israel and Turkey, which country is likely to back down first?

Turkey doesn't benefit from a military showdown/standoff with Israel, and neither would Israel.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

What makes it worse for Tel Aviv is that Turkey was a country they had goodly relations with and business too - now the Turks say they can kiss goodbye to such.

Over the long haul, I doubt it. Friends? No. Business partners? Yes.

Originally posted by jax:

Turkey doesn't benefit from a military showdown/standoff with Israel, and neither would Israel.

All i can say is Shame .

The Man Who Controls Access to President Obama is a Mossad Agent?
The President's Chief of Staff is the man who controls access to the President. For that reason, the Chief of Staff has been called "the second-most powerful man in Washington next to the president."2 Why, then, did President Obama appoint to that position Rahm Emanuel, son of a Zionist terrorist, himself a War on Terror enthusiast who has served with the Israeli Defense Forces and who may be, according to intelligence sources, an agent of the Israeli Mossad?3
And has never served in the U.S military

Well a show down between the Turkish Navy and the IDF would certainly be to the IDF's disadvantage as the Israeli lot is really a collection of gunboats whilst the Turks have frigates.It is that age old Israeli arrogance that they have every right for their protection. So it is to be unique about a State being allowed piracy in international waters? The country is a political wart in the ME and as I have oft stated only kept afloat by the gullible USA taxpayer shelling out tens of millions of dollars every single day to keep these arrogant, military gung ho people in their blitkreig mentality and stomping boots.

This "democracy" in the ME locks up Gaza and leaves people without homes, ruined hospitals, infrastructure and vets anything coming in by land. This includes cement for house building, chocolate (?), pasta (?), toys (?). Must be really clever the Gaza lot that they have discovered how to kill Jews with chocolate, pasta toys. Vastly underestimated people?!

Suicidal religious fanatics, no matter where, have lost any human rights claims.

The religious fanatics can be found amongst a proportion in the West Bank and also in Tel Aviv they know no bounds.

If you don't get on with your neighbours, what do you do, kill them? Come on, thats insane. How do we treat insanity?

Originally posted by leftwing:

Suicidal religious fanatics, no matter where, have lost any human rights claims.

What most people fail to recognize is that the Jews and Arabs have a common ancestor - Abraham. That is where the problem started. This is a family feud and all others are well advised to keep their nose out of it.

Originally posted by OldGuey:

What most people fail to recognize is that the Jews and Arabs have a common ancestor - Abraham. That is where the problem started. This is a family feud and all others are well advised to keep their nose out of it.

Hello, Poe.

US reporter Helen Thomas quits over Israel comments

Veteran US White House reporter Helen Thomas has retired after making controversial remarks about Israel.

In an interview on 27 May, she said that Israelis should get "the hell out of Palestine" and suggested they went to Germany, Poland or the US. White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said her comments were "offensive and reprehensible". She has since apologised. Thomas, 89, was the longest-serving reporter in the White House.

This was an unexpected casualty of the incident at sea.

Originally posted by OldGuey:

This is a family feud and all others are well advised to keep their nose out of it.

When the both of them kill, it is humanity's business to step in and try to stop the killings.

Originally posted by jax:

US reporter Helen Thomas quits over Israel comments

Yeah, it's a pity to. I always got a good laugh from her.

This proves that Freedom of Speech is deteriorating in the US; if you don't back Israel's US-condoned state terrorism, you are forced out. (of whatever position you are in)

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

A short post this time!
I am always very unhappy with the situation in the Middle East. Is the continuous conflict religious or political?
I suggest we we identify the problems and solution, so as to design an everlasting peace between the children of Father Abraham -- The Ishmaelites (Arabs) and the Israelites.

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

When the both of them kill, it is humanity's business to step in and try to stop the killings.

For "humanity's", read America's. You've fallen into the trap, thedawgfan.
.........................................

For the first time in history, a free patriotic live-action show will come to Grand Rapids, Mich. The U.S. Army Military District of Washington presents the Spirit of America at Van Andel Arena on Friday and Saturday.
http://www.lanthorn.com/index.php/article/2010/09/spirit_of_america_to_retell_war_history_in_free_show

Free, my sainted ass!

Originally posted by Jaybro:

You've fallen into the trap, thedawgfan.

Such is life.

Originally posted by Jaybro:

Free, my sainted ass!

Interesting.
Grand Rapids is quite the random spot to choose for the re-enactments.
I'll be expecting a report on how the actors for the Confederacy did in their re-enactments.
(YouTube clip would be preferable)

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

Grand Rapids is quite the random spot to choose for the re-enactments.

If it ended there, it would be random, indeed. But this group travels around the country putting on free shows. The thing that bothers me most about it is that it feeds the monster that is the overemphasis of military solutions to world problems, an overemphasis that finds a comfortable home here.

Clean-cut young men, paragons of the best that America has to offer. Horse pucky. Do we need a military? I think so, but we don't need over 700 military facilities, large and small, around the globe. We have almost an identical number of major facilities that the British Empire had at its zenith. What does that tell you?

Originally posted by Jaybro:

We have almost an identical number of major facilities that the British Empire had at its zenith. What does that tell you?

Shut the bases down, bring our troops home, and let the world rot.
Focus on America, but offer a hand in diplomacy when needed.
(Without secret military operations going on behind the scene. )

Wordsworth wrote "THE world is too much with us; late and soon,
Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers".

I think we're too much with the world.

Does anybody need 26 bases in Germany? Even the Germans! Obscene.

Fill in the blanks:

We need _____ bases in Germany to protect ourselves from ___________. (Use space below if you can't fit them in the small space I provided.)




....

Those three lines from thedawgfan encapsulate things well. There has always been rot somewhere in the world as it happens and that includes inside America too. It would be better spending more of it's money before the Chinese snaffle it all by looking after their own people a bit more and before things get any worse.

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

I am always very unhappy with the situation in the Middle East. Is the continuous conflict religious or political?

Yes I doubt anyone is happy with the situation. It appears that the Zionists have the Arabs strategy in check. Hind sight is 20-20. If the Arabs would have never attacked Israel things would be much better for them. looking at the deal of where Arafat could have negotiated most of the 1967 border is the best deal that the Arabs could have gotten. As for the future Israel will keep building new settlements and grabbing more land. The Arabs will be ever violent playing right into Israels strategy.

We need 2,000 bases in Germany to protect ourselves from illegal space aliens.

The reason for the continued presence of American forces in Europe is the caveat "If it works do not fix it". Since 1945 Europe has been largely at peace. This peace extending sixty five plus years is unheard of in European history. For sixty five years Europeans have not gone around killing each other. There is a tendency not to chance by change, something that works. Some balances are better changed carefully and slowly. European institutions are maturing. European nations are developing non violent means to solve their disputes.

Originally posted by grysmn:

The reason for the continued presence of American forces in Europe is the caveat "If it works do not fix it". Since 1945 Europe has been largely at peace. This peace extending sixty five plus years is unheard of in European history. For sixty five years Europeans have not gone around killing each other. There is a tendency not to chance by change, something that works. Some balances are better changed carefully and slowly. European institutions are maturing. European nations are developing non violent means to solve their disputes.

Oh I do love the way you invent mad ideas and pretend you sincerely believe them!

Originally posted by grysmn:

European institutions are maturing. European nations are developing non violent means to solve their disputes.

And the 26 American bases in Germany have led to this happy state?

Don't drink any more of that Kool-Aid.
.........................................
Which entity will deliver the next nuclear explosion? Please identify the victim. (Soon to be released as a new thread)

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I think the USA should save money by closing down Israel and then moving the population over to the good ole' US of A. Reckon the Ex-Colonies could save money if they were all nearer?

Thanks for the repeat and still appropriate.

Now, this is my first post here---probably my last. I admit that I have just glanced through the preceding posts & have not read most of them.

Why?

Because, I have read most of what the 'Usual Posters' have posted in the past, & they are mostly highly predictable.

So, here is my predictable answer to the question posed by the OP.

Q. What is the way forward in Palestine?

A. What ever path the Palestinians & the Israelis deem fit to follow.

We all have meddled in their affairs to no avail, & it's about time all the 'Nannys' back the &@*# off, & let them figure it out for themselves.

If they want peace, then it must be their peace. If they want war, then it must be their war. All parties other than the two (2) parties directly involved should put their aprons away, & back the &@*# off!

Who cares who was the first, second, or last to meddle in their disputes.

Everyone outside of the Palestinians & the Israelis just need to back the &@*# off!

Whoever came up with the quote "We are our brothers keeper" is a total bloody ashole! --- I only hope they/he/she/it was a Christian so all the 'Usual Posters' here can have a field day disputing it's/their/his/her shortcomings!

Leave them to their own demise or survival -- whatever their choice might eventually be---mutual destruction wouldn't see me having sleepless nights.

If peace breaks out in the Middle East tonight, please don't wake me, I need my sleep, & don't give a royal rats ass!

Period, full stop, amen, end of rant.

Diplomacy will not work in this particular situation. The idea of imposing a solution on people who cannot agree on anything is unproductive. The mere thought that there is a non violent solution other than a walled partition is insanity. The latest initiative to freeze Israeli settlement building for a few months was a non starter. The Palestinians would not negotiate on anything except extending the settlement freeze. That conflict is a situation where anyone from the outside getting involved is a waste of their time and resources.

Leave them alone and it's either they destroy themselves or they'd find a bit of peace where one colonizes the other. But then the world wouldn't let them be, so everything is based on assumption! That the difference between reality and fairy tales. there isn't a sign of peaceful co-existence

The way forward in ancient Israel/Palestine/Modern Israel is simple enough.
They need to throw off the albatrosses around their necks that are their religions, and they need to embrace Pastafarianism.

RAmen

But let her (Jeruselem) live at peace because of her holiness in the sight of Lord God. By the way it is where gather for final judgement in the here after

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I have never been a fan of Israel and have said this very strongly here and I am not surprised that thedawgfan gets incredulous looks from his fellow Ex-Colonists. They are hidebound by Biblical interpretations and have repeatedly said so in some kind of roundabout looking after the poor Jew.

Israel has also used history, emotion and any old thing to justify everything they do so that means we are supposed to let them get on with it. Their spokesmen have indicated on tv that they don't car a damn what the rest of the world says or thinks they will stomp, shoot, burn out any opposition. They blitzkrieg with great gusto although their last foray in Lebanon seen the IDF scuttle back with their tail between their legs. That the US taxpayer is paying big bucks for this ME almost fascist style approach is a millstone around their neck and doing their cred internationally as much good as old red socks coming to Glasgow (!). War and death in any scenario are tragic but in hindsight I wish to Hell they had lost the 6 Day War all those years ago.

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

But let her (Jeruselem) live at peace because of her holiness in the sight of Lord God. By the way it is where gather for final judgement in the here after

where did that come from?

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

But let her (Jeruselem) live at peace because of her holiness in the sight of Lord God. By the way it is where gather for final judgement in the here after

where did that come from?

Originally posted by Chiyembekezo25:

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I have never been a fan of Israel and have said this very strongly here and I am not surprised that thedawgfan gets incredulous looks from his fellow Ex-Colonists. They are hidebound by Biblical interpretations and have repeatedly said so in some kind of roundabout looking after the poor Jew.

Israel has also used history, emotion and any old thing to justify everything they do so that means we are supposed to let them get on with it. Their spokesmen have indicated on tv that they don't car a damn what the rest of the world says or thinks they will stomp, shoot, burn out any opposition. They blitzkrieg with great gusto although their last foray in Lebanon seen the IDF scuttle back with their tail between their legs. That the US taxpayer is paying big bucks for this ME almost fascist style approach is a millstone around their neck and doing their cred internationally as much good as old red socks coming to Glasgow (!). War and death in any scenario are tragic but in hindsight I wish to Hell they had lost the 6 Day War all those years ago.

wishes made to hell rarely come through

One thing about Israel it is a bulwark against Islamic expansionism. And as the any Muslim will tell that nothing happens outside of Allah's will, it is Allah's will that Israel tweaks the Islamic nose. As for Lebanon the next time Hezboolah starts something Israel will not use restraint in its reaction, Hezbollah is now a part of the Lebanese government.

We will get the other old hoary one about it's democratic credentials next. There is much inside Israel of a non-democratic nature going on. It is the old US policy mentality of supporting anyone who is against the US's enemies of folk who won't succumb to Washington rule. Every fascist government for yonks was supported because they were anti-Communist so that touch is still alive in the ME. I said in a previous discussion a year or two back that the trouble with the US being so far up Israel is due to spiritual influence. The Bible, strong religious blocks in America that fall back on the Chosen Peole and Biblical reference. The USA will never solve the ME as they are Israel are dancing partners. As for the Israelis the more immigrant Jews they take in the more belligerent that lot are. They have stolen land and continue to build where they damn well like. Even recently ignoring President Obama who funds them. For such a wonderful place that Israel is (looking from the pond), the place wouldn't last a week trying to stand on it's own two feet. It should never have been allowed to do it's own thing. Jewish arrogance knows no bounds. It is okay for them to take unilateral action and create a State, ethnic cleanse, build walls (wish I had trumpets!) and they have a say in whether others who have lived there for hundreds of years should have their State? It is a country of themseives and military blitkreig mentality and got away with it bemoaning about their history and the softies in the West took it all in. Their are a hard nosed and dangerous lot in Israel.

Yeah we can all dream johnogaziechi. Now if only there were Moon settlements I would willingly donate handsomely to the Tel Aviv mob transplanting. ME crisis? Gone!

Justice?! When?

Justice doesn't come into much with the Jews DANBUZO. They are a law all to themselves.

Is that adjustable?

Nope they have the good ole US of A to keep them afloat with dollars and bullets. Never mind blackmailing us with history. We can see how rogue N. Korea is but the situation in the ME has another that folk don't tend to see.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I said in a previous discussion a year or two back that the trouble with the US being so far up Israel is due to spiritual influence.

Exactly.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

They have stolen land and continue to build where they damn well like. Even recently ignoring President Obama who funds them.

Quite the arrogant lot aren't they?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Jewish arrogance knows no bounds.

incorrect here, Mr. Howie. Your own personal bigotry here clouds your vision.
It is Zionist arrogance that knows no bounds, not Jewishness.
You should educate yourself on the difference, as it is a big one.

And Zionists are Jews.

They also have a massive support in the State of Israel so maybe you should take lessons about US bigotry. We all jumped into bed with the world's worst tyrant and rogue State with Stalin/USSR to push back another lot in Germany so one can almost see whether thedawgfan's convoluted idea comes from re Islam. Wasn't it the US that also used fundamental Islamic terrorism in Afghanistan and we have an American on here lecturing us about morality?!

Much of the immigration into Israel is by people with Zionist tendencies hence their power. America is a flawed interfere in the ME with it's had so far up the puppet in Tel Aviv. Those Zionists are also very wrapped up in their religion and the very Jewishness mentioned. When it comes to bigotry the land of the free is rife with it and certainly at the moment so look around your own corner before taking the high ground. The "Jewishness" obby in the USA is a mighty animal. Well organised, funded and Presidents and politicians almost fawn at it. As for Israel being the example of freedom, democracy and light in the Middle East that is almost laughable. A sovereign, "independent State" that wouldn't last the week without the USA keeping it financially afloat! But pulling the plug on that one is a no-no due to the lobby back home. Why not just beatle off and stop paying the place to exist falsely. I have little time for Islamic terror but neither do i have it for the stomping attitude of the big boots in Israel. Zionism is rife in that country and you can see it in the politics. Look at some of the minorities in Israel including Christians and se how many are treated. Americans do need to get about more. Their country is so big they haven't much of a clue where anything is on the map and just absorb any old tripe their media and masters in DC throw at them. The biggest threat to peace is the very existence of israel. Unfortunately I have to accept it as in existence and not much I can do about that but save me the inexperienced view of the young and visioned.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

And Zionists are Jews.

And all jews are zionists?
This is beyond mere idiocy.

Originally posted by Macallan:

This is beyond mere idiocy.

I think I'll write to Mr. Howie's local MP and ask that they remove all of the sand from Glasgow.
That way, he can finally face facts.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

We all jumped into bed with the world's worst tyrant and rogue State with Stalin/USSR to push back another lot in Germany so one can almost see whether thedawgfan's convoluted idea comes from re Islam.

What the hell does Stalin's USSR have to do with Zionists and Israel?
(Seriously, lay off the Irn Bru when posting.)

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Wasn't it the US that also used fundamental Islamic terrorism in Afghanistan and we have an American on here lecturing us about morality?!

Who is lecturing on morality? You made the mistake of lumping Zionists with the indigenious Jewish people/religion.
I know you don't want to hear this, as it will 'eff up' your set-in-stone mindset, but they are not one and the same.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

America is a flawed interfere in the ME with it's had so far up the puppet in Tel Aviv.

We can thank you lot for that, as when your Empire fell, it was a critical stage in the Palestinian/Israeli situation and someone had to restore order.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Their country is so big they haven't much of a clue where anything is on the map

Do you really want to go back to this old whore of an argument?
GaryDenness and others have already engaged you in this particular type of discussion and as usual, you were a wiltering tulip about it all, as you cowered away from the debate.
The proverbial ball is in your court, Mr. Howie.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

And Zionists are Jews.

Are they really? Are you sure it is not possible to have a non Jewish Zionist? This is debatable.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

. When it comes to bigotry the land of the free is rife with it

You'd feel very much at home then.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Americans do need to get about more.

As do certain Glaswegians. However, I do understand that you are afraid of travelling beyond the familiar. Travelphobic, if you like. A little cowardly in my opinion. Man up, old chap!!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Their country is so big they haven't much of a clue where anything is on the map

This old chestnut again?! Mr Howie, is Northern Ireland part of Great Britain? Yes or no? This is basic geography concerning your own country. If you can't answer correctly, then perhaps you ought cease criticising what others may or may not know of lands beyond their border.

Which continent is Mexico in? There are only two American continents. You've already had two guesses. Two choices and two guesses, and yet, unbelievably, you've yet to get this question right!!!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

The biggest threat to peace is the very existence of israel.

You'd get on well with the Iranian president. Two like minded people, so you are.

Do remember to wipe the spittle and dribble off your chin before you go out of the house today Mr Howie.

For all your daft ranting thedawgfan you have totally missed the whole list of points.

Firstly for smart ass Macallan he neatly contorts what i said. I said that Zionists were Jews and that is a simple Jewish fact but he sneeringly tries to change that to all Jews. A point was being made but beyond him. As for the rest of thedawgfan's ramble small wonder he, Macallan and garydenness make the 3 Stooges here. Indeed interesting that thedawgfan needs to include the arch smart alex to bolster his argument. Israel exists because the USA ensures it does. The place cannot stand on it's own two feet. We should have kept away from the whole historical debacle but the USA was the rising Empire and determined to replace us with theirs. It interferes everywhere is a semi-military dictatorship in a sense and creates wars to keep the big gun industry happy. With the tradition of fundies in the US and their attitude to Israel, the lobby system that is massive thedawgfan falls into the same old psyche of Americans regarding Israel. They don't like that country being criticised or indeed threatened and just look at what happens here when you do - they go bananas!

Rather ironic about the spittle considering your usual American tripe on your Israeli puppets. Maybe if there is ever another ME war you could send your marines at least there would be a touch of fun!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Firstly for smart ass Macallan he neatly contorts what i said. I said that Zionists were Jews and that is a simple Jewish fact but he sneeringly tries to change that to all Jews.

Now you're really talking out of your rear end, even by your own standards.
Last time I checked

• you ranted about 'the jews' here
• and then tried to justify it here "And Zionists are Jews."

... after which I asked you if all jews are zionists - anyone with the logical prowess exceeding that of an amoeba can see why and anyone with basic reading comprehension can see that I didn't contort anything whatsoever - it's just your usual brainless babble.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Firstly for smart ass Macallan he neatly contorts what i said.

No he didn't. He made his point based on your comments in a literate manner in plain English. Oh, I think I see the problem. Literate. English.

Anyway Mr Howie, you too are a Zionist supporter. You've admitted that quite explicitly in the past.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

For all your daft ranting thedawgfan you have totally missed the whole list of points.

No, I've not missed any point. I've been reading what you've posted.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I said that Zionists were Jews and that is a simple Jewish fact

No, it's not. In your rush to get in a go at the US and to condemn all Jews, you overlook the fact that non-Jews can be Zionists.
(Watch this now Old Hat) Heck, look in the US, lots of Prots are Zionists.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

As for the rest of thedawgfan's ramble small wonder he, Macallan and garydenness make the 3 Stooges here.

Yes, 'tis difficult always having to face the facts we provide you, right?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Indeed interesting that thedawgfan needs to include the arch smart alex to bolster his argument.

I Included Gary into that because you are the one who wanted to open it again for the umpteenth time.
(And you've still not answered him yet. )

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Israel exists because the USA ensures it does.

Yep, just as was the British plan when they were the world superpower.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

With the tradition of fundies in the US and their attitude to Israel, the lobby system that is massive thedawgfan falls into the same old psyche of Americans regarding Israel. They don't like that country being criticised or indeed threatened and just look at what happens here when you do - they go bananas!

You seriously need to lay off the Diet Irn Bru when posting.
Had you done so, you would read that I am all for criticism for the state-sanctioned terrorism that Israel condones.
What I am not for is mistaking facts with lies.

...and the band played on...

Originally posted by jbrothernew:

...and the band played on...

....and on. And on. And on.

Ha, ha. That comes from a master of repetition there in Me-he-co. hoots all round.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Ha, ha. That comes from a master of repetition there in Me-he-co. hoots all round.

In Spanish, the advert runs.....Ariston, y zion, y zion....

You'd like it. Being a Zionist supporter yourself!

Originally posted by rjhowie:

With the tradition of fundies in the US and their attitude to Israel, the lobby system that is massive thedawgfan falls into the same old psyche of Americans regarding Israel. They don't like that country being criticised or indeed threatened and just look at what happens here when you do - they go bananas!

Rj come on We just don't want things escalating there.. The Sampson option is available by the help of UK and Europe.

I personally would give each side like amounts of food, conventional ammo / weapons and let them go for it.. And I'll make book in Vegas.

No we wouldn't want that MAXXTHRUST. Imagine me daring to challenge the would-be club of the Three Stooges! However that seems a good idea of giving each other the stuff and letting them get on with it but whether the paymasters in DC have the gumption I doubt it! You could enjoy Vegas whilst i am perambulating the beauty of St Petersburg and can watch the USA on tv rescuing their subsidised junkies in Tel Aviv. Poor old brainwashed thedawgfan and him so young too. Jaybro can play in the band if he wants this is too real for him. Amazing how thedawgfan ends up unintentionally in with his fundie pals over there who go ga-ga over Israel. Brilliant stuff, ha, ha.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Imagine me daring to challenge the would-be club of the Three Stooges!

It's not the daring, so much as the intellectual capability that is unimaginable.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Poor old brainwashed thedawgfan and him so young too. Jaybro can play in the band if he wants this is too real for him. Amazing how thedawgfan ends up unintentionally in with his fundie pals over there who go ga-ga over Israel. Brilliant stuff, ha, ha.

What's even more brilliant are your responses when you cannot argue with facts, old chap!

Everyone is quick to blame Israel for the Palestinian problem. In reality it is an Arab cultural problem. No Arab country at this time is capable of delivering a stable non corrupt government that provides opportunity for all of it's citizens. http://apnews.myway.com/article/20110119/D9KRCORG1.html

You Yanks and sub-Yanks are so brainwashed about poor Israel for the reasons I have oft mentioned here, You grow up with it si understandable thedawgfan.

I agree grysmn about corruption and allied matters in much of the Arab world but doesn't let the Tel Aviv mob off the hook. It has had it's share of dodgy people including a President if I recall. Then throw in the increasing number of Zionists (always helped by more of that ilk who constantly immigrate there and make up the new settlers), stealing land which is hardly moral, pretending it hasn't dabbled in nuclear amongst it's traits. Oh and don't froget it has it's own Gestapo politely named Mossad. An organisation that has several times stolen passports including from your allies and willy-pnilly takes out people. This attempt to constantly portray Israel as Snow White is so much bunkum.

I have always accepted that Israel is if albeit sadly a fact of life. It's moral two-facedness and corruption may be neatly explained away as not as crude as the Arab States. Israel is a nation that has blackmailed the world and used history at every turn. The place only exists because of America a country which practices immoral policies and corruption when it suits. Even in the war with Egypt in the 70's it was deceitful. When a ceasefire was agreed Israel continued it's military action. Basically the damn place cannot be trusted and it is a society split down the middle both politically and between religious Zionist fanatics and the more secular and sensible Jews. Hardly the beacon of light in the ME but Americans have been so drawn into the Biblical thing and know nothing much of outside their Borders. The US has helped to create a scar in the ME.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Then throw in the increasing number of Zionists

Are these Jewish Zionists today, or non Jewish Zionists today?

Have you accepted that you are also a self proclaimed Zionist yet?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

stealing land which is hardly moral

But it is moral when the British do it, one assumes. Can you spell hypocrisy?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

ven in the war with Egypt in the 70's it was deceitful.

Do you have no opinion of their war with Egypt in 1956? You know, when they attacked with British and French support. No opinion? Nothing?

Originally posted by garydenness:

Originally posted by rjhowie:

stealing land which is hardly moral

But it is moral when the British do it, one assumes. Can you spell hypocrisy?

It's fine if you bring Commerce & Civilization. Someone please invade Glasgow now

Originally posted by Macallan:

Someone please invade Glasgow now

*Puts that on the to-do list*

Originally posted by rjhowie:

You grow up with it si understandable thedawgfan.

In no way am I brainwashed Mr. Howie. I am well aware of the state-sanctioned terrorism condoned by the Israeli Gov't in response to terrorism put forth by Palestinian militants. You've still got your knickers in a twist because I corrected you in your error that not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists are Jews.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

America a country which practices immoral policies and corruption when it suits.

We learned it all from our former Motherland. Are you proud of this, Mr. Howie?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Americans have been so drawn into the Biblical thing and know nothing much of outside their Borders.

Yet...

Originally posted by garydenness:

Mr Howie, is Northern Ireland part of Great Britain? Yes or no? This is basic geography concerning your own country. If you can't answer correctly, then perhaps you ought cease criticising what others may or may not know of lands beyond their border.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

You Yanks and sub-Yanks are so brainwashed about poor Israel for the reasons

But you missed this reason....

Arabs are tough when they are beating their wives, the are quick to run when a Western Army challenges them. Arabs do not put their faith in their god Allah's will, instead now they cry and plead their case before foreign journalists. Now even the Women of the IDF are kicking Arab butt!