As an American 'Do you like American Sovereignty' ?

As an American 'Do you like American Sovereignty' ?

Like your American Sovereignty ?

Prepare to kiss it all goodbye if the Big O & his Band of Brothers have their way.

The U.S. Supreme Court will no longer be the Highest Court of the Land, nor the last Court of Appeal.

S.1346 The Crimes Against Humanity Act of 2009 ..... Check it out.

Do you think it's all part of a 'Grand Plan', or just some obvious misunderstanding we have nothing to be worried about ?

This bill does not erode American Sovereignty. US citizens should be as culpable for crimes against humanity as those of any other nationality are.

Just finished reading the bill, I can't see anything in there that could possibly be objectionable to you. What is your complaint?

Originally posted by Redem:

Just finished reading the bill, I can't see anything in there that could possibly be objectionable to you. What is your complaint?

In the end, regardless of any laws or courts governing anywhere in the world that any alleged crime(s)may have taken place, the laws governing any citizen(s) of the United States of America must take precedent, & supersede all other courts & laws to be solely determined by the Supreme Court of the United States of America, based upon United States Law governing similar offenses allegedly committed by any Citizen(s)s of the United States of America, & not subject to any law or jurisdiction of any other world court or any court of any other land regarding laws relating to such offenses.

If found guilty of any offenses mentioned above a Citizen of the United States of America will be subject solely to penalties prescribed by a Court of the United States of America, & of no other world court or any court of any other land regarding laws relating to such offenses. If the courts of the United States of America finds that the defendant(s) are not guilty of a crime, the case is closed & the defendant(s) are free.

Now, just as long as it is crystal clear that a Citizen of the United States of Americas is solely answerable in a Court of the United States of America, & to the Laws of the same, under the protections of the United States Constitution,period, then all's well, good, & acceptable by me.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Now, just as long as it is crystal clear that a Citizen of the United States of Americas is solely answerable in a Court of the United States of America, & to the Laws of the same, under the protections of the United States Constitution,period, then all's well, good, & acceptable by me.

This is not how the world works. Commit a crime in France, you are subject to French law.

Moreover, this bill merely lays claim to extra-territorial jurisdiction for the purpose of crimes against humanity. They would be tried in a US court under US law for their crimes in other parts of the world.

Originally posted by Redem:

This is not how the world works. Commit a crime in France, you are subject to French law.

Subject to the claim of French Law, but if the claimed offense carries no such standing of law in the United States, then no offense is deemed committed, & there will be no trial in the United States. The previous stipulates that the accused is presently located in the United States, or on United States Soil----Military Outpost.

That how the laws are administered in the United States.

Now if he is being held in a French jail, by the French, that's another story altogether, & you are correct.

In that case the best that could be hoped for is an acceptance of extradition to the United States. Unless it's a country we would be willing to go to war with over the incident.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Do you think the Obama Administration would stoop so low as to allowing American Citizens to be subject to International Law rather than the U.S. Constitution?

You were subject to international law the moment you were born. The US of A was subject to international law from its inception. The USA is signatory to a huge swathe of treaties, as can be seen in the voluminous Treaties in Force, A List of Treaties and Other International Agreements of the United States in Force on January 1, 2010.

If you were to plan a genocide, exterminate all French-speakers in the US, say, whatever your like-minded Supreme Court might opine, you would be in trouble. Why? Because the US is a signatory, indeed an instigator, to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide of 1948, long before Obama's birth certificate was written.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

In that case the best that could be hoped for is an acceptance of extradition to the United States. Unless it's a country we would be willing to go to war with over the incident.

Like this?

I think all matters should be turned over to the UN Human rights people. ....The MFer bastards.. Then we could go in and get rid of them...We can handle the unemployment.... Utterlly stupid twits...

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Subject to the claim of French Law, but if the claimed offense carries no such standing of law in the United States, then no offense is deemed committed, & there will be no trial in the United States. The previous stipulates that the accused is presently located in the United States, or on United States Soil----Military Outpost.

All of the crimes in question are crimes under US law.

Crimes against humanity have a habit of being crimes under US law, last time I checked. That's one reason why our nutbag extreme right wing groups haven't run wild yet, if they did they'd get busted, tried, convicted and punished long before it ever got to a world court.

I do like American Sovereignty, but no nation--- including the United States--- must place its own sovereign status above the good of all. Look what happened when Nazi Germany tried that stunt. Does anybody in their right mind want to live through that again?

It's amazing how the Tea people use the same tactics (fearmongering and whoring bills out in their own mistinterpretations of them) as the Repubs do, yet the Tea people claim to be independent from the GOP.
Such is life:

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

extreme right wing groups haven't run wild yet,

In my life time only the left ran wild.....Who you, kiddn.You have a short memory or are in denial.

When a Citizen of the United States of America does wrong, & the law stipulates punishment, & the injured seek justice, I see no problem with a Citizen being tried fairly by a jury of his peers in an American Court.

As I see it, I believe that a United States Citizen, while living in the United States of America, a citizen should be protected by the United States Constitution, & subject to Laws of the United States as interpreted by the Justices of United States Supreme Court--and that court ONLY.

When the day comes, if it ever does, that International Law supersedes the Law of the Land--The United States Constiturtion---and the American Courts jurisdiction & laws becomes irrelevant, then them sweet sister Europeans better come totin' big because I will be, & I won't be goin' down without them experiencing most grievous injury first. Oh, and know this, I won't be alone---you can take that to the bank.

Rest assured International Law ends at my property line!

As not an US citizen do i get any say? lol

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

As not an US citizen do i get any say? lol

Yes, of course you do Troy, I'd be listening attentively---but first please check yer guns at the front door. Properly sheathed Knives under 14 inches is ok

I'm too timid to comment.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I'm too timid to comment.

RJ....Worry not......I don't bite,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,unless bitten first

From all I read, yer harmless--sometimes misguided, but harmless nonetheless...just good fer a snakey lick here & then, so have at it!

Originally posted by Denny77:

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

extreme right wing groups haven't run wild yet,

In my life time only the left ran wild.....Who you, kiddn.You have a short memory or are in denial.

Check your history. We've got an alphabet soup of nutcase groups on both sides, perhaps the ones on the right have quieted down somewhat but don't count them out yet. The various "militias", the guys who run around in bedsheets with pointy hats and the guys who want to bring all the "glories" of the late not-so-lamented Third Reich to America all tend toward extreme right wing views, and they should by no means be counted out yet when it comes to violating other people's rights. Both extremes seem to want to take away rights by government force, so it can be hard to tell which would be worse.

Originally posted by mjmsprt40:

We've got an alphabet soup of nutcase groups on both sides

more to the point...the rest is gobbly gook so I did not quote.

The last time I ran into something on this order was Swift's "A Modest Proposal," a small portion of which follows:
.........................................

I have already computed the charge of nursing a beggar's child (in which
list I reckon all cottagers, labourers, and four-fifths of the farmers)
to be about two shillings per annum, rags included; and I believe no
gentleman would repine to give ten shillings for the carcass of a good
fat child, which, as I have said, will make four dishes of excellent
nutritive meat, when he hath only some particular friend, or his
own family to dine with him. Thus the squire will learn to be a good
landlord, and grow popular among his tenants, the mother will have eight
shillings neat profit, and be fit for work till she produces another
child.

Smileyfaze, I do occasionally like to venture into controversy being normally such a quiet, shy, inoffensive bloke......

Originally posted by Jaybro:

Good news: "Between 1 percent and 4 percent of genes in people from Europe and Asia trace back to Neanderthals."

I wonder which tail of the distribution that is. Does this mean that if my DNA shows up will I be on the same end as the Asians.....we all know about their superior intellect. Thank you Jab bo. I wondered how I obtained my present status in the world.

The one thing that is holding America together is 'our common bond'. It is very fragile, but we can keep it strong if we stay vigilant. Today, we still all join together to protect each other from invaders & threats from abroad, but there is a more dangerous evil upon us though. It's the evil from within. Home Grown Terrorists, yes, but not as you have been taught to know them or have seen them.

How can we protect America from those that desire to destroy us from within? Here is something that me help you understand more about protecting 'Our Common Bond'.



What do you think about this message?

Do you understand that once America abdicates it's Sovereignty to become homogeneous with the rest of the world, they have won & America is no more?

We don't need to be part of their One World United, under One Government, do we?

And, if you are not American, look inward to your own 'common bonds'. Are they under attack? Are there forces that seek to destroy your National Pride & Sovereignty?

If it hasn't happened yet, protect what you hold dear today---for it may be gone tomorrow!

SF, are you a Tea Party activist leader?

I know there is controversy over this Tea Party thingy going on over there but I didn't think this clip was too over the top. There may have been a couple of points I could query but I thought much of it was kind of middle of the road in a sense. I would ask another direct question. Is it true that only 60% pay tax? If so why is this please?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Is it true that only 60% pay tax? If so why is this please?

If you mean federal income tax then that's probably true. People with low income get a negative tax rate, as in they get more 'back' on tax day than they paid over the year. That does not mean they're not paying any other taxes though.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Is it true that only 60% pay tax? If so why is this please?

RJ...yep, it's true approximately 45% don't pay Federal Income Tax. Some countries discount the first so many thousands of income before the income is subject to income tax. Think of it as something like that, so if taxpayer Z earns less than the threshold in reportable income they don't pay any Federal Income Tax. As Mac said though, they will pay other taxes on things they buy etc..etc..

Originally posted by thedawgfan:

SF, are you a Tea Party activist leader?

Nope, I'm just a spoke in a wheel------just a spoke

I found this from a Arizona resident.

"Southern Arizona weekends

1. Chopping more firewood to replace what gets stolen.
2. Cleaning your property of dropped garbage, clothes, etc.
3. Your sleep is disturbed from the sounds of people walking past your house at night, cigarette smoke wafting in to your house through open windows (I'm not joking!) and border patrol helicopters over-head with their search lights."

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Is it true that only 60% pay tax? If so why is this please?

RJ...yep, it's true approximately 45% don't pay Federal Income Tax.

If this is the case, complaining about your tax burden is a lost cause. You better find arguments that this is not the case.

It is the case because both major parties have supported it.

The trend began way back in 1975, when the Ford Administration introduced the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC), which entitled low-paid workers to a rebate. Since then, Presidents from both parties have expanded the program, which is politically popular because it encourages people to work. The EITC now costs more than fifty billion dollars a year, making it by far the biggest welfare program. Under its terms, individual families with children can receive as much as $5,600 a year from the federal government. In recent years, Presidents Bush and Obama, as part of economic stimulus programs, have both introduced new tax rebates for low and middle income families. As a result of all these measures, more and more households have been removed from the income tax rolls.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/2010/04/who-pays-federal-income-tax.html

It is misleading to say that a high percentage of the population pay no taxes. There are other taxes than FITs.

Originally posted by ersi:

If this is the case, complaining about your tax burden is a lost cause. You better find arguments that this is not the case

egads

Wow, this was a good read. I especially enjoyed that video Smileyfaze.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

The U.S. Supreme Court will no longer be the Highest Court of the Land, nor the last Court of Appeal.

I only skimmed through the act, but where was the part about the Supreme Court deferring to another court? About the closest I saw was on "Arbitrary Detention" which I interpreted to mean that foreign jurisdictions have the ability to detain persons according to their own procedures. I.e. Italian Police can pop you in a cell in a manner that is a breach of your liberty in the US, but not a breach of your liberty in Italy. That's no threat to US sovereignty.

Originally posted by Redem:

This bill does not erode American Sovereignty. US citizens should be as culpable for crimes against humanity as those of any other nationality are.

It doesn't erode US sovereignty, and it makes US citizens more culpable than they already are. Any trial of a US citizen for crimes against humanity would currently be made by an international court under the US' obligations according to whatever treaties they've ratified rather than through the US' own legal system.
It appears to do little more than incorporate into US law those offences that the likes of ICC would seek jurisdiction over. If anything I'd argue that this is a strengthening of US sovereignty because, under this act, the trying of an offence against humanity (as defined by US law) committed by a US citizen or on US turf would be in the jurisdiction of the US Supreme Court and not an international court.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I'm too timid to comment.

Come now Howie! I've never known you to be timid here!

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Do you understand that once America abdicates it's Sovereignty to become homogeneous with the rest of the world, they have won & America is no more?

But do you understand this bill doens't erode American sovereignity? Where does erode American sovereignity at all?

Originally posted by Sanguinemoon:

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Do you understand that once America abdicates it's Sovereignty to become homogeneous with the rest of the world, they have won & America is no more?

But do you understand this bill doens't erode American sovereignity? Where does erode American sovereignity at all?

Obama supports it ( or so they think ) - that's enough for your average teabagger.

Sovereignty is vastly overrated. I'd much rather be slavishly ruled by Salma Hayek. And I don't care what O'bama thinks of of it---damned Irishman!

Originally posted by Jaybro:

It is misleading to say that a high percentage of the population pay no taxes. There are other taxes than FITs.

As in most cases Jaybro, you're right on target. Some pay State Income Taxes, State Sales Taxes, City Income Taxes, City Sales Taxes, Real Estate Taxes, & a multitude of usage & admission fees (which are actually taxes)---the list goes on & on & on. It sometime seems that everyone has their hands in your back pocket, & surprisingly there is something left when you go to it for something you want.

There is a tax coming down the pike. It's called Cap & Trade. I won't discuss that here (I'll open a new thread for that as soon as it hits the news on a daily basis), but it can be---if allowed to become law---it can be the GrandPappy of all obscene taxes ever levied on the American Peoples.

Thanks for the explanation about the Federal tax. I was basing my query on the man in the video link. So if I get this right because of low income (?) they are out of Federal Tax? I know about sales taxes from my visits there. They confused me at first when i seen an item at a good price then found there was tax to be added!. Are there State taxes. local city taxes as well that these folk will get some allowance for too?

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Thanks for the explanation about the Federal tax. I was basing my query on the man in the video link. So if I get this right because of low income (?) they are out of Federal Tax?

Pretty much. In fact it's the single biggest federal welfare program in terms of dollars spent since lots of people get money instead of paying.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

I know about sales taxes from my visits there. They confused me at first when i seen an item at a good price then found there was tax to be added!. Are there State taxes.

Sales taxes differ from state to state, and in many states there are different taxes rates for different products, usually it's lower for groceries.
There is no federal sales tax although occasionally there's talk about it.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

local city taxes as well that these folk will get some allowance for too?

They get property taxes and such, I'm not sure if counties can take additional sales taxes. They can also collect taxes on vehicles ( makes sense since they maintain the roads ) and a couple other things.

There are State INCOME Taxes, as well as State Sales Taxes. There are City INCOME Taxes, as well as City Sales Taxes, & County Property (Real Estate) Taxes. There are places on Long Island, New York where Real Estate Taxes alone are over $15,000 a year. The house may only cost you $150,000, but the property taxes are out of this world. Another benefit is that if you sell your house, & make an ample profit above what you paid, as long as you buy another house for one cent more than your profit, you avoid having to pay any capitol gains whatsoever on owner occupied home sales. Now if you can hold off until your 65 years old by doing this, there are no Federal Real Estate Capital Gains Taxes for people over 65 years of age regarding owner occupied home sales--as long as it's under $1,000,000 profit that is. Anything over $1,000,000 profit is fully taxable Federally. Also, the interest paid on your mortgage is 100% deductible off your Federal Income Tax, as is any State & Local taxes you may have to pay---100% deductible on the Federal Income Tax return. I don't know of any County Sales Tax, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.

Unlike some other smaller Countries though, the Automobile Registration Fee in the United States (a tax) is collected by the individual States & is quite small. About $45 to $75 a year on the average sub-compact. I've heard of Countries where the yearly Automobile Registration charge is in excess of $500.00! Yeee Gaddds!!

SF, now that you have proven in a nice detailed manner that there are no taxes in America, please explain again what the "no taxes" slogan is about.

Edit
Are you looking forward to French taxation system?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_States

something many people are not aware of is there are people being held in federal institutions that have not had trials. particularly those that have filed ucc sovereignty. approximately 50 cases where those people have completely disappeared. yea right here. good ole USA

Hhhm a plot thickens. Where are the patriots to take this on?

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

What do you think about this message?

Forum policy prevents me from saying it.

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Also, the interest paid on your mortgage is 100% deductible off your Federal Income Tax, as is any State & Local taxes you may have to pay---100% deductible on the Federal Income Tax return. I don't know of any County Sales Tax, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.

Unlike some other smaller Countries though, the Automobile Registration Fee in the United States (a tax) is collected by the individual States & is quite small. About $45 to $75 a year on the average sub-compact. I've heard of Countries where the yearly Automobile Registration charge is in excess of $500.00! Yeee Gaddds!!

Actually no. The Federal tax deduction decreases when you income goes over a certain level.

Depending on locality, vehicles are assessed a local yearly property tax in place of or in addition to the yearly registration fee. The yearly vehicle property can easily surpass $500.00.
http://www.arlingtonva.us/Departments/CommissionerOfRevenue/CommissionerOfRevenueVTFAQsQA.aspx

You're such a fount of misleading information.

Originally posted by ronsmith1956:

something many people are not aware of is there are people being held in federal institutions that have not had trials. particularly those that have filed ucc sovereignty. approximately 50 cases where those people have completely disappeared. yea right here. good ole USA

Just misplaced, they gotta be around here somewhere.

The average American gives up between 42% and 55% of his or her income in the form of taxes.
There Are Two Income Tax Systems In This Country:
One For The Educated And One For The Uneducated.
Decades ago, a Supreme Court Justice named Learned Hand made the following observation: To paraphrase, he said “there are two income tax systems in this country: one for the educated and one for the uneducated.” I want to give you the opportunity to become one of the educated and accumulate wealth instead of giving all your hard-earned dollars to Uncle Sam.

The following two diagrams hold the secret to tilting the tax laws in your favor. The first one illustrates the tax system for the UN-educated: “Earn, Pay Taxes, Spend.” The second illustrates the tax system for the Educated: “Earn, Spend, Pay Taxes.” Both systems start, of course, with earning income. However, in the UN-educated tax system, your taxes are immediately deducted from your paycheck, BEFORE you ever see it. Then, you have to live on what is left over.

http://taxsavings.wordpress.com/2007/05/09/the-average-american-gives-up-42-to-55-in-taxes/

Remember....Stupid (Earn, Pay Taxes, Spend.)
Learn................. (Earn, Spend, Pay Taxes.)


Declare a lot of deductions and Itemize your returns. I go through a ream for paper returns and it's a write off.
Entertainment is a good one while traveling............

Now there's a revelation as I always took the USA to be a land of lesser taxes.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Now there's a revelation as I always took the USA to be a land of lesser taxes.

Our gross national debt is approximately $14 trillion this year.
Yours? £2.2 trillion. Not bad for an island!

UK population is a little one side or the other of 63,000,000.

The US population is about 310,000,000, or just under 5x that of the UK.

At today's exchange rate that 1 GBP = 1.5175 USD, £2.2 trillion would equal about $USD 3.34 Trillion.

Now take 3.34 Trillion & multiply it by 4.92 which would equal to about $USD 16,433,000,000

US DEBT in USD = 14 Trillion vs. UK DEBT in USD = 16.4 Trillion (£10.81 Trillion)


The UK therefore is in essence deeper in debt overall than the US is when figured on a per capita basis.

But hey, bigger here is not better.

Being in debt is actually a National Disgrace teetering upon the precipice of being obscene in many countries around the world!