Attitudes to prostitution..

Attitudes to prostitution..

Currently in Britain, prostitution is not legal. However for about 100 quid you can use the services of an 'Escort' for an hour, or visit a 'Sauna'.

The recent 'Crossbow Cannibal' case has once again highlighted the dangers these women face and caused a discussion in the media here about the whole prostitution 'thing'.

Is it better that prostitution is legal rather than being an underground activity?

Thoughts please..........

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

Currently in Britain, prostitution is not legal. However for about 100 quid you can use the services of an 'Escort' for an hour, or visit a 'Sauna'.

The recent 'Crossbow Cannibal' case has once again highlighted the dangers these women face and caused a discussion in the media here about the whole prostitution 'thing'.

Is it better that prostitution is legal rather than being an underground activity?

Thoughts please..........

I think it is better that prostitution is legal rather then being an underground activity!!!

Getting paid money for something you would do for free. I don't see a problem with that

Is it really illegal? Soliciting in public is. Living off immoral earnings (pimping) is. Causing or inciting prostitution for gain is. Engaging the services of a prostitute is. But is the prostitute committing an offence where the solicitation is in private? I can't say that she is. But since the above offences effectively outlaw the practice, let's say that it is illegal.

Overall I'd like to see it legalised. It's one of those activities that will go on no matter how well policed and considering the potential risk to public health, it's probably better off being regulated than hidden underground.

However... I'm in two minds about it because legalising a trade will lead to corporatising that trade. Imagine if you will the McQuickie. A drive-thru service for the horny man in a hurry. Is that what you want? 'Cos that's what'll happen. With that in mind, If it were legalised I'd want there to remain offences of Controlling prostitution for gain. How that would be done profitably, I don't know. Communes of pro's perhaps?

During Steve Wright's little escapade back in '06 there was a chap and his wife in Ipswich who publicly announced that they wanted to offer their place as a brothel and more importantly a safe-haven, at least until the perpetrator (unidentified at that time) was caught, (I couldn't find a source for this but I recall him being on BBC R4). Ipswich Council were wholly unimpressed. They'd rather their hookers were found in ditches in pieces than have them conduct their business in safe premesis.

However... I'm in two minds about it because legalising a trade will lead to corporatising that trade. Imagine if you will the McQuickie.

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

However... I'm in two minds about it because legalising a trade will lead to corporatising that trade. Imagine if you will the McQuickie.

Is there some sort of anti-feminist symbolism somewhere in there?!

Of course Prostitution should be legal world wide.

The US Debt could be paid off in 5 years just from the tax it would bring in if Obama would sign the Executive Order legalizing it in the USA!

Michelle would prolly castrate him, but then again that would be an improvement anyway!

Yeah, legalize it in Britain for starters....lord knows they always had the sweetest streetwalkers in the world----ugliest, but still the sweetest!

Today Britain, then it's onward to Chicago.

Hmmmmm, maybe we should call it <uhhummp> 'User Fees' rather than taxes though --- I'll leave that up to the Politico's, it's a subject near & dear to their sweet lil hearts-------------the whores they are!

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

Is it better that prostitution is legal rather than being an underground activity?

Yes, it's going to happen one way or another, legal or not. The main reason Germany legalized it ( even with conservative support ) was to extend workers rights ( like medical care, legal recourse against mistreatment etc. ) to them.

Originally posted by Macallan:

Yes, it's going to happen one way or another, legal or not. The main reason Germany legalized it ( even with conservative support ) was to extend workers rights ( like medical care, legal recourse against mistreatment etc. ) to them.

yeah, ya gotta love that German Logic!

Originally posted by WastedCharlie:

Imagine if you will the McQuickie. A drive-thru service for the horny man in a hurry. Is that what you want? 'Cos that's what'll happen.

And it would be really awkward if you accidentally pick-up your own daughter, niece, or sister from McQuickie...
If you could meet someone you know in McDonald, then you might meet 'em in McQuickie too.

Originally posted by WastedCharlie:

With that in mind, If it were legalised I'd want there to remain offences of Controlling prostitution for gain. How that would be done profitably, I don't know. Communes of pro's perhaps?

Here is an interesting situation, definition of pimp: "A pimp is an agent for prostitutes who lives off their earnings."
So, if a government legalized prostitution & collecting service fee taxes from prostitutes...
What makes the government? The biggest pimp of all?

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

Is it better that prostitution is legal rather than being an underground activity?

Are you OK for your children to prostitute their body for money? Or is it OK for you to forfeit your rights to protect your children from prostitution? What stop bad parents from prostitute their children if prostitution become a legal business? How do you prevent someone from being tricked into prostitution or save 'em from it, when prostitution is a legal business?

Once prostitution become a legal business you won't be able to forbid anyone from prostitute their body, that included your children, friends, & relatives (as long as they're consider "adult" by law). They can even sue you for interfering/sabotaging their "business" when you try to stop 'em. Worst situation is when someone being tricked into prostitution, they have no way out because prostitution have become legal business & protected by legal loopholes. Let's face it, there are always legal loopholes that some crooks can abuse, & they will do so to keep control of their assets & gain enormous wealth, enough to bribe the government to turn a blind eye of their business.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_by_country#Europe

I doubt that most prostitutes want to be legalized. At least in several countries.
And it seems a strange concept. They will pass receives? It's tax deductible for clients? Maybe it can be considered as a therapy I suppose..
Legalizing prostitution it's just another step for state control about everything in life.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

I doubt that most prostitutes want to be legalized. At least in several countries.

Why, are they illegal immigrants?

Originally posted by Belfrager:

They will pass receives?

Of course.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

It's tax deductible for clients?

It could be for some.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Legalizing prostitution it's just another step for state control about everything in life.

How is that?

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Why, are they illegal immigrants?

Some are, others are nationals. But all of them needs to get the most money in a relatively short time since a woman can't live from prostitution after a certain age. And they age fast. So, paying taxes it's not what they want.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

How is that?

What has the state to do with what people agree regarding sex?
Maybe legalize it's not the right word. In that wikipedia map it uses the "legalized" therm when, in fact, it's nothing but tolerated. Legalizing will suppose the same state regulation than any other profession has.
Prostitution it's not a profession but an activity witch it's a different thing.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Prostitution it's not a profession but an activity witch it's a different thing.

why is it a different thing? sports is an activity as well, and you can't do professional sports that long either*. but it is still a profession.

* of course it depends on the kind of the sport

Originally posted by NoobSaibot:

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Prostitution it's not a profession but an activity witch it's a different thing.

why is it a different thing? sports is an activity as well, and you can't do professional sports that long either*. but it is still a profession.

* of course it depends on the kind of the sport

Sport, as professions, is regulated (Federations, Rules, Infra structures, Courts, Competitions, Academies etc). Prostitution it's not.

so profession is defined by those things being present? academies? give me a break. prostitution, as macallan said, is regulated and is considered a profession (in some countries). you try to claim otherwise by saying that it is not a profession. doesn't work.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Some are, others are nationals. But all of them needs to get the most money in a relatively short time since a woman can't live from prostitution after a certain age. And they age fast. So, paying taxes it's not what they want.

So I'd take it you'd rather run an illegal business yourself? Or do you enjoy paying taxes? I can't say I see your point. Besides, what you say sounds like it'd increase chances of human trafficking.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

What has the state to do with what people agree regarding sex?

What has the state to do with what people to agree regarding anything? This is a business transaction, plain and simple. It comes with certain health norms, for instance, and all the police support that legitimate business owners get. Heck, you fund that by paying taxes, for that matter.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Maybe legalize it's not the right word. In that wikipedia map it uses the "legalized" therm when, in fact, it's nothing but tolerated. Legalizing will suppose the same state regulation than any other profession has.

As the page says, it's also about the type of prostitution (street, brothel, etc.). In the Netherlands it's a business like any other, which includes things like advertising. I'm pretty sure it's the same in Germany.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Sport, as professions, is regulated (Federations, Rules, Infra structures, Courts, Competitions, Academies etc). Prostitution it's not.

Prostitution is regulated, it has unions, etc. You're spreading falsehoods.

Here's a random union: http://vakbondvakwerk.nl/
Here's an organization that defends the rights of prostitutes (i.e. similar to a union, but not quite a union): http://www.rodedraad.nl/

There are more.

And yes, there's also official infrastructure (for street prostitution) etc.

There aren't any internal courts (and most people actually use the justice system last time I checked, rather than trying to circumvent it...), and as far as I know there are no competitions, but there is a prostitution academy in Amsterdam afaik. But there's plenty of jobs that don't come with an academy at any rate, so I really don't see any relevance in that either.

Are you OK for your children to prostitute their body for money? Or is it OK for you to forfeit your rights to protect your children from prostitution? What stop bad parents from prostitute their children if prostitution become a legal business? How do you prevent someone from being tricked into prostitution or save 'em from it, when prostitution is a legal business?
Once prostitution become a legal business you won't be able to forbid anyone from prostitute their body, that included your children, friends, & relatives (as long as they're consider "adult" by law). They can even sue you for interfering/sabotaging their "business" when you try to stop 'em. Worst situation is when someone being tricked into prostitution, they have no way out because prostitution have become legal business & protected by legal loopholes. Let's face it, there are always legal loopholes that some crooks can abuse, & they will do so to keep control of their assets & gain enormous wealth, enough to bribe the government to turn a blind eye of their business.

Hmm. You've made several good points there. However, I used to live near (well not near), in an area where i would regularly get asked by various ladies if 'i wanted business'. One even used to wave at me every night when i was driving home.lol Theres something just not great about the whole thing. If it is going to happen anyway, whats wrong with making it safer?

Then again i suppose some of the girls involved have got other problems as well, like drug addiction, where they're just working to get money for drugs. Its a big subject, but as other countries have made it legal then maybe the UK needs to look at them as models, to see whats happened. There was a drama documentary on the TV recently about Steve Wright, who murdered several prostitutes a few years ago. Then a couple of weeks later it was happening again for real. Surely it can't keep happening.
David Cameron said that he would be clamping down on kerb crawlers. SIgh... I just wonder if these people have ever lived in the real world at all.-

Originally posted by Smileyfaze:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Yes, it's going to happen one way or another, legal or not. The main reason Germany legalized it ( even with conservative support ) was to extend workers rights ( like medical care, legal recourse against mistreatment etc. ) to them.

yeah, ya gotta love that German Logic!

Well, a popular opinion among cynics like myself was of course that the conservatives only supported it because it would provide for safer conditions for their customers as well ( think periodic checks for STDs and such )

Originally posted by Macallan:

Well, a popular opinion among cynics like myself was of course that the conservatives only supported it because it would provide for safer conditions for their customers as well ( think periodic checks for STDs and such )

When you say conservatives, do you mean CDU?

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by Macallan:

Well, a popular opinion among cynics like myself was of course that the conservatives only supported it because it would provide for safer conditions for their customers as well ( think periodic checks for STDs and such )

When you say conservatives, do you mean CDU?

Them, and especially the CSU.
Of course, by US standards neither is particularly 'conservative'

Legalise it!

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

If it is going to happen anyway, whats wrong with making it safer?

Legalize prostitution make it safer? That doesn't stop serial prostitute killer from killing more prostitutes, & they are still not 100% protected from STD even with condom. The safest method is don't prostitute your body to various strangers, but even so if your customer have multiple sexual partners before, you're still expose to risk. There are many crime we can't stop, but that doesn't means we should legalize 'em... We can't stop murder, rape, & human trafficking, should we legalize all of 'em so that the victim might not suffer as much?

Legalized prostitution not only will grant freedom to individual to sell their body openly, but it also withhold the authorities (parents, guardians, educators, government) from preventing ignorant youth from participate such tempting practice hidden with dire consequences. In Asia, there is a "Compensated Dating" trend (paid to date someone) spreading amongst the young girls, & often it will lead to prostitution when the customer offering expensive gift or huge amount of money. It's hard to resist such offers, especially teenagers & youth who know no better other than short-term advantage. Legalized prostitution will set a dangerous precedent, because then it's acceptable to prostitute body for money, pride & dignity can be replace with bling bling, & self-respect is just a fairytale for little kid. Can you imagine a nation filled with whores & gigolos?

Conservative or Liberal, can you honestly say you won't forbid your daughter & son prostitute their body? If prostitution is legal, then you don't have to worry about it because you can't to stop them from practicing prostitution once they reach the age of majority (18 in EU). 18 years old can fetch very high price in the prostitution business, do you think your 18 years old can resist such temptation?

The safest method is don't prostitute your body to various strangers, but even so if your customer have multiple sexual partners before, you're still expose to risk. There are many crime we can't stop, but that doesn't means we should legalize 'em... We can't stop murder, rape, & human trafficking, should we legalize all of 'em so that the victim might not suffer as much?

I know morally you are right. But surely human trafficking and prostitution are interlinked. You can't really compare rape and murder to prostitution. As far as crimes go they are on different ends of the scale. Really, its the oldest profession because people will always have the desire to have sex. Heterosexual men will normally want to sleep with a woman. There's not much you can do to stop that desire. Thats why some pick up prostitutes. And they always will. Supply and demand.
The situation you were talking about in Asia reference young women being payed to go on a date is strange. In the UK you take a woman out on a date. If any money is involved, that takes on a new dimension. A date is a date. Being payed for a date is the job of an escort. Either way, if she's being payed, she's a working girl. And believe me, if you pick up a lot of British girls in a bar/nightclub (God i hope i don't get shot for this), more often than not she won't care if you wear a condom or not. So the bit about STD's etc is not even work a mention in the UK. lol

There has been a massive surge in STI's over here in the past few years, Chlamydia and Syphilis being a popular choice. Though Hepatitis B and C is fairly common with prostitutes. (Much more nasty cold).

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Sport, as professions, is regulated (Federations, Rules, Infra structures, Courts, Competitions, Academies etc). Prostitution it's not.

Prostitution is regulated, it has unions, etc. You're spreading falsehoods.

Here's a random union: http://vakbondvakwerk.nl/
Here's an organization that defends the rights of prostitutes (i.e. similar to a union, but not quite a union): http://www.rodedraad.nl/

There are more.

And yes, there's also official infrastructure (for street prostitution) etc.

There aren't any internal courts (and most people actually use the justice system last time I checked, rather than trying to circumvent it...), and as far as I know there are no competitions, but there is a prostitution academy in Amsterdam afaik. But there's plenty of jobs that don't come with an academy at any rate, so I really don't see any relevance in that either.

Yes, everyone has an idea how Holand tries to regulate prostitution, my point being exactly that it's just a State interference at areas where it should not interfere. The attempt to regulate prostitution it's not new, it comes from antiquity and never worked.

Anyway your example its interesting because it shows well how a society tries to normalize and regulate prostitution, just as if it was a normal and regular profession witch it obviously isn't.
And they do it because prostitution it's a menace for social order as anything that it's not controlled by the state. So they regulate it.
What surprises me (well, not anymore really) is that people applauds.

Originally posted by dude09:

Legalize prostitution make it safer? That doesn't stop serial prostitute killer from killing more prostitutes

I'd advise you to read up on Dutch prostitution before you make such bold claims. The specifically designated prostitution areas and surrounding neighborhoods are the safest of town.

Originally posted by dude09:

There are many crime we can't stop, but that doesn't means we should legalize 'em... We can't stop murder, rape, & human trafficking, should we legalize all of 'em so that the victim might not suffer as much?

Except that doesn't make any sense. Prostitution is explicitly not rape. The key is consenting adults. The parallel in the generic ending-life area would be euthanasia, not murder. For transportation that would be more akin to taking the train.

Originally posted by dude09:

but it also withhold the authorities (parents, guardians, educators, government) from preventing ignorant youth from participate such tempting practice hidden with dire consequences.

If you're worried about ignorant youth, make viewing or reading Wir Kinder vom Bahnhof Zoo obligatory. It'll put anyone off of drugs and prostitution. Other than that you might as well say the same thing about something like driving a car, which has probably got a higher chance of "dire consequences" anyway.

Originally posted by dude09:

In Asia, there is a "Compensated Dating" trend (paid to date someone) spreading amongst the young girls, & often it will lead to prostitution when the customer offering expensive gift or huge amount of money. It's hard to resist such offers, especially teenagers & youth who know no better other than short-term advantage. Legalized prostitution will set a dangerous precedent, because then it's acceptable to prostitute body for money, pride & dignity can be replace with bling bling, & self-respect is just a fairytale for little kid.

Unless by "young girls" you mean 18-21 or some such that's all completely irrelevant and wouldn't be legal in any jurisdiction. Over here we refer to people over 18 as (young) men and women rather than boys and girls.

Originally posted by dude09:

Conservative or Liberal, can you honestly say you won't forbid your daughter & son prostitute their body?

You mean "try to."

Originally posted by dude09:

18 years old can fetch very high price in the prostitution business, do you think your 18 years old can resist such temptation?

Obviously, or all the Dutch 18 year olds would be doing it.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Yes, everyone has an idea how Holand tries to regulate prostitution, my point being exactly that it's just a State interference at areas where it should not interfere. The attempt to regulate prostitution it's not new, it comes from antiquity and never worked.

It works, period.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Anyway your example its interesting because it shows well how a society tries to normalize and regulate prostitution, just as if it was a normal and regular profession witch it obviously isn't.

You perform a service for money. That's the definition of a job, isn't it?

Originally posted by Belfrager:

And they do it because prostitution it's a menace for social order as anything that it's not controlled by the state. So they regulate it.

Criminal syndicates might be a menace to social order, but prostitution in and of itself certainly isn't.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

What surprises me (well, not anymore really) is that people applauds.

Okay, why exactly should prostitution be exempt from taxation?

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

The situation you were talking about in Asia reference young women being payed to go on a date is strange. If any money is involved, that takes on a new dimension. A date is a date. Being payed for a date is the job of an escort. Either way, if she's being payed, she's a working girl.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enjo_kōsai
Usually there are no middle man or escort agency involved. Customer paid the time spend with the girl without sex involved, but he might get lucky if she's happy or drunk enough...

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

Really, its the oldest profession because people will always have the desire to have sex. Heterosexual men will normally want to sleep with a woman. There's not much you can do to stop that desire. Thats why some pick up prostitutes. And they always will. Supply and demand.

Even so, we shouldn't open the Pandora box. When legalized prostitution, it make sexual exploitation much, much easier to occur... Morality aside, legalized prostitution won't diminish or prevent illegal prostitution (underage, force, & coerce). The opposite might occur, where legal prostitution end up encouraging "breeding prostitute" (human/sexual trafficking) when it's impossible to meet the demands of perverted desires - criminals don't play by the rules, & legalized prostitution won't make 'em suddenly change their business modal & become law abiding businessmen. Perverted men like to play with new things, guess what's they demand after played with the busty blond & shrilly brunette? Exotic oriental anyone?

I want a Vietnamese virgin that will do anything, can you get me one? Legally.
Sure, we'll fetch you one! Fresh from Vietnam, & guaranteed she'll bleed!
Guess where they gonna get that poor girl from?
Locally from US of America, EU, or Vietnam for the best price?

Also, monthly or weekly health checkup for prostitute doesn't do any good either... It took weeks for an HIV infected prostitute to be identifiable (become positive) & another 1-2 weeks to get the result back. So, by the time she find out her result is HIV positive she probably already infected a few hundred customers, who probably spread the disease to many other prostitutes in the region, & the disease never end because it just keep spreading between horny men & unfortunate prostitutes.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Prostitution it's not a profession but an activity witch it's a different thing.

That's what people used to say about the law.

At any rate, I was opposed to prostitution until I entered the profession. It's good work with nice benefits...the dental plan is outstanding.

It's the same here with the "escort" . I think absolutely make it legal and tax the crap out of it. Let's make some money off that to fund roads and such

We could also make mandatory drug testing, at least that would help 'some'

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I'd advise you to read up on Dutch prostitution before you make such bold claims. The specifically designated prostitution areas and surrounding neighborhoods are the safest of town.

Can you point me to a source please? All I found is about organized crime of human trafficking, loverboys seduced & coerce young girls & women into prostitution in Netherlands. The punishment for human trafficking are jokes over there, only 8 years prison for the crime??? Also, illegal prostitution is spawning there too as we speak... Although there are no sign of prostitute killer, I can't consider it safest of town when women & girls are threaten with violence beating behind the closed door by some crooks, while the authority is having serious problem eliminating the illegal prostitution from the legal prostitution area...

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Except that doesn't make any sense. Prostitution is explicitly not rape. The key is consenting adults. The parallel in the generic ending-life area would be euthanasia, not murder. For transportation that would be more akin to taking the train.

My point is should we tolerant & settle with lesser evil? If so, what's next after legalized prostitution? Should we continue legalized other "illegal" prostitution too? What's the benefits if illegal prostitution still spawning after legalized of prostitution?

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Unless by "young girls" you mean 18-21 or some such that's all completely irrelevant and wouldn't be legal in any jurisdiction. Over here we refer to people over 18 as (young) men and women rather than boys and girls.

please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enjo_kōsai

Originally posted by Frenzie:

You mean "try to."

So, you would rather give up your right "try to" protect your children when they're legally an adult??!
You can't stop them legally if prostitution is legal. You understand that do you?
You might think it won't happen to your children because they won't be so stupid, but if it happened to others' children then why not your children?

Originally posted by dude09:

Even so, we shouldn't open the Pandora box. When legalized prostitution, it make sexual exploitation much, much easier to occur... Morality aside, legalized prostitution won't diminish or prevent illegal prostitution (underage, force, & coerce). The opposite might occur, where legal prostitution end up encouraging "breeding prostitute" (human/sexual trafficking) when it's impossible to meet the demands of perverted desires - criminals don't play by the rules, & legalized prostitution won't make 'em suddenly change their business modal & become law abiding businessmen.

Surely you have licenses in the UK? I don't imagine I could just go over there to be a medical practitioner, for instance.

Originally posted by dude09:

Also, monthly or weekly health checkup for prostitute doesn't do any good either... It took weeks for an HIV infected prostitute to be identifiable (become positive) & another 1-2 weeks to get the result back. So, by the time she find out her result is HIV positive she probably already infected a few hundred customers, who probably spread the disease to many other prostitutes in the region, & the disease never end because it just keep spreading between horny men & unfortunate prostitutes.

Natural selection at work then. Are male prostitutes and horny women exempt from the disease? But uh, been reading abstinence-only propaganda? That's not how HIV (or any STD) works, unless you think that prostitutes don't utilize condoms.

Originally posted by dude09:

Can you point me to a source please?

I have no idea about anything in English, but any municipality with a street prostitution zone will publish what's going on about it, for instance here http://www.utrecht.nl/smartsite.dws?id=317778 Wikipedia has some pretty decent articles on the matter too http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnl.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTippelprostitutie&sl=auto&tl=en

Originally posted by dude09:

The punishment for human trafficking are jokes over there, only 8 years prison for the crime???

Only 8 years? Are you American? Anyway, wherever you got that from musn't have read the law completely. Depending on certain specifics the maximum can be 8, 12, 15 or 18 years.

Originally posted by dude09:

Also, illegal prostitution is spawning there too as we speak.

In Amsterdam, yes, because the city closed its street prostitution zone and is otherwise trying to reduce the number of prostitutes, thus forcing them into illegal labor or to move to other cities, demonstrating very well that cities like Utrecht are right.

Originally posted by dude09:

Although there are no sign of prostitute killer, I can't consider it safest of town when women & girls are threaten with violence beating behind the closed door by some crooks, while the authority is having serious problem eliminating the illegal prostitution from the legal prostitution area...

Where, Amsterdam or somewhere else?

Originally posted by dude09:

My point is should we tolerant & settle with lesser evil? If so, what's next after legalized prostitution? Should we continue legalized other "illegal" prostitution too? What's the benefits if illegal prostitution still spawning after legalized of prostitution?

Proper health regulations and security for licensed prostitutes (and their customers) and taxes for the cities and state seem like clear benefits to me regardless of the presence of unlicensed prostitutes. Plus if all prostitutes aren't in the same illegal boat, licensed prostitutes also have a clear advantage in fighting unlicensed prostitution.

Originally posted by dude09:

So, you would rather give up your right "try to" protect your children when they're legally an adult??!

You already do.

You can't stop them legally if prostitution is legal. You understand that do you?

There are many, many things you can't stop your children from doing. I'd probably rather have them make lots of money with some sex than with a drug trial.

You might think it won't happen to your children because they won't be so stupid, but if it happened to others' children then why not your children?

Then raise the minimum age for licensed prostitution to 21 or 25 if 18 is still considered too young. Eventually you'll have to let go, even if your children do decide to become prostitutes.

Originally posted by dude09:

please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enjo_kōsai

I'm not sure what I think about that.

I want a Vietnamese virgin that will do anything, can you get me one? Legally. Sure, we'll fetch you one! Fresh from Vietnam, & guaranteed she'll bleed! Guess where they gonna get that poor girl from? Locally from US of America, EU, or Vietnam for the best price?

Again. Thats a completely different subject.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Surely you have licenses in the UK? I don't imagine I could just go over there to be a medical practitioner, for instance.

You can get licenses for illegal prostitution or sexual trafficking? That's the first time I heard...

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Natural selection at work then. Are male prostitutes and horny women exempt from the disease? But uh, been reading abstinence-only propaganda? That's not how HIV (or any STD) works, unless you think that prostitutes don't utilize condoms.

You're not trolling me are you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_test

Originally posted by Frenzie:

In Amsterdam, yes, because the city closed its street prostitution zone and is otherwise trying to reduce the number of prostitutes, thus forcing them into illegal labor or to move to other cities, demonstrating very well that cities like Utrecht are right.

The illegal prostitution I refer to are underage, force, & coerce prostitution by organize crime. When you close the prostitution zone they will move their business to else where, no surprise there.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Where, Amsterdam or somewhere else?

Amsterdam. I heard news about sexual trafficking over there are growing & the authority can't handle it, so they decided to close down some prostitution zone. Not sure if that's an effective move...

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Proper health regulations and security for licensed prostitutes (and their customers) and taxes for the cities and state seem like clear benefits to me regardless of the presence of unlicensed prostitutes. Plus if all prostitutes aren't in the same illegal boat, licensed prostitutes also have a clear advantage in fighting unlicensed prostitution.

I agreed with the more money for government by pimping the prostitutes logic, but I don't buy the "proper health regulation" & "advantage of legal prostitute over unlicensed prostitution" excuses. Again, condom don't give 100% protection & it only create incentive for customer to pay more for premium service (bareback sex experience). Condom only minimized the risk of infection, you still can get infected through so called "protected sex", prostitute that serve many customers each day will still expose to high risk. And most men like younger women, some even prefer teenagers - legality doesn't change their taste & if legal prostitution can't give 'em what they want, they will pay more for illegal prostitution.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

You already do.

Are you trolling me again? Where I live, prostitution is still illegal.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

There are many, many things you can't stop your children from doing. I'd probably rather have them make lots of money with some sex than with a drug trial.

I hope you're joking...

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Then raise the minimum age for licensed prostitution to 21 or 25 if 18 is still considered too young. Eventually you'll have to let go, even if your children do decide to become prostitutes.

That would defeat the purpose of legalized prostitution, no whore will wait until 25 to sell their body, they won't get much at that age unless they're the only available stock in that area.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by Belfrager:

And they do it because prostitution it's a menace for social order as anything that it's not controlled by the state. So they regulate it.

Criminal syndicates might be a menace to social order, but prostitution in and of itself certainly isn't.

Criminal syndicates are a menace to social order for security reasons, prostitution it's a menace for social order by the fear that some societies have regarding moral and sexuality. The much they claim to be modern the much they are traumatized, of course.
So, those societies denies reality and tries to minimize the fear, legalizing and regulating. Then, they think they have dominated sexual pulsion inside society, the poor naifs..

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by Belfrager:

What surprises me (well, not anymore really) is that people applauds.

Okay, why exactly should prostitution be exempt from taxation?

Because it's not a profession and the State doesn't have to recollect money from an activity like that.
You are the one who has to explain why do you want to tax sexual relationships and why you are asking for the State interfere on it.

Originally posted by TroyMclure:

Thats a completely different subject.

How so? You get a Vietnamese into your country legally as a prostitute, that's the same as you get a hooker from another town to work for you. Whatever means she got here is not important as long as you can get her a license as prostitute. You will start printing money in no time when you get a handful of girls from all over the world under your slavery program. That's what happening in countries that legalized prostitution, foreigners are brought from everywhere there are demand, & someone have to do it to meet the demand.

From what I've read the decriminalisation of prostitution in New Zealand has been a pretty big success. The prostitutes themselves like the new system and it seems to have reduced violence and other problems. Of course it's not perfect, but then there's abuse and exploitation in other legal industries. People talk about human trafficking as if it's synonymous with forced prostitution, but around half of all human trafficking victims are forced into other forms of work (the 21 Chinese cockle pickers who died in Morecambe Bay are a famous example), and we don't criminalise those entire industries.

Making it illegal definitely doesn't make it go away; you get prostitution across America even though it's a crime, and there's even prostitution in strict Islamic countries with very harsh laws for all extra-marital sex.

The disease issue seems like a bit of a red herring. Some people are going to see prostitutes whether it's illegal or not, and it seems safer to me if it's regulated. In New Zealand there are health checks and it's illegal to have sex with a prostitute without using a condom. Is there any evidence that those prostitutes are more likely to carry a disease than anyone else? We don't ban people from hooking up in a bar because of the potential risk they're taking...

Having said all that, I don't think that legalisation/decriminalisation would have made much of a difference to whether those women were murdered in Bradford. Even if legal brothels/agencies were available, they wouldn't hire women with serious drug problems, and that's why they were on the street working as prostitutes. Even if it was legal they'd still be out there putting their lives in danger, and they'd still be easy targets for murderers.

With those women the drugs are the real issue, and focussing on prostitution is treating the symptom rather than the disease. What's needed to help them is a sane drug policy so that they don't have to become street prostitutes to feed their habit, and that's a very different discussion.

Originally posted by dude09:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Surely you have licenses in the UK? I don't imagine I could just go over there to be a medical practitioner, for instance.

You can get licenses for illegal prostitution or sexual trafficking? That's the first time I heard...

And yet you accuse me of trolling.

Originally posted by dude09:

You're not trolling me are you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_test

"[potentially]already infected a few hundred customers" fify

I know some people who sleep around with tons of people without involving any prostitutes. The main difference in my eyes is that prostitutes get paid for it.

Originally posted by dude09:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

In Amsterdam, yes, because the city closed its street prostitution zone and is otherwise trying to reduce the number of prostitutes, thus forcing them into illegal labor or to move to other cities, demonstrating very well that cities like Utrecht are right.

The illegal prostitution I refer to are underage, force, & coerce prostitution by organize crime. When you close the prostitution zone they will move their business to else where, no surprise there.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Where, Amsterdam or somewhere else?

Amsterdam. I heard news about sexual trafficking over there are growing & the authority can't handle it, so they decided to close down some prostitution zone. Not sure if that's an effective move...

One thing to keep in mind is that Amsterdam gets tons of tourists, including many interested in pot and prostitution.

Originally posted by dude09:

And most men like younger women

Younger women meaning?

Originally posted by dude09:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

You already do.

Are you trolling me again? Where I live, prostitution is still illegal.

I have no idea where you live, but that's entirely besides the point. Everything is dangerous. Your treating prostitutes as something icky and to be shunned is exactly what may make it a slightly more dangerous profession in regard to things like serial killers.

Originally posted by dude09:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

There are many, many things you can't stop your children from doing. I'd probably rather have them make lots of money with some sex than with a drug trial.

I hope you're joking...

Obviously in your country (whatever that may be) that would be different. I'm talking about a situation more akin to in the Netherlands, or as stevejyates describes, in New Zealand. The important thing should be whether the child is happy doing what they're doing or not, not what they do.

Originally posted by dude09:

That would defeat the purpose of legalized prostitution, no whore will wait until 25 to sell their body, they won't get much at that age unless they're the only available stock in that area.

Again, who are you accusing of trolling? Do you seriously think the majority of prostitutes is under 25? And I don't see what your obsession with female prostitutes is, anyway. There are tons of male prostitutes as well.

Originally posted by stevejyates:

People talk about human trafficking as if it's synonymous with forced prostitution, but around half of all human trafficking victims are forced into other forms of work (the 21 Chinese cockle pickers who died in Morecambe Bay are a famous example), and we don't criminalise those entire industries.

Exactly.

Originally posted by stevejyates:

The disease issue seems like a bit of a red herring. Some people are going to see prostitutes whether it's illegal or not, and it seems safer to me if it's regulated.

Plus people are going to sleep around entirely legally (except in some Muslim countries) without paying anything too.

Originally posted by stevejyates:

With those women the drugs are the real issue, and focussing on prostitution is treating the symptom rather than the disease. What's needed to help them is a sane drug policy so that they don't have to become street prostitutes to feed their habit, and that's a very different discussion.

Precisely.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

So, those societies denies reality and tries to minimize the fear, legalizing and regulating. Then, they think they have dominated sexual pulsion inside society, the poor naifs..

I can't say I see how that follows from anything, but fundamentally it seems to come down to the fact that you don't see a difference between picking someone up at a bar for regular sex and picking someone up at a brothel for paid sex. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Because it's not a profession and the State doesn't have to recollect money from an activity like that.
You are the one who has to explain why do you want to tax sexual relationships and why you are asking for the State interfere on it.

I don't see the difference between someone paying someone else for sexual pleasure and someone paying someone else to fix their toilet. Not charging taxes for one of these would be exempting a business sector from taxation and unless you want to aid said business sector in international competition or some such there shouldn't be any reason to.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Yes, I'll agree on that.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

but fundamentally it seems to come down to the fact that you don't see a difference between picking someone up at a bar for regular sex and picking someone up at a brothel for paid sex.

I don't. It's their lives and private relationship, State doesn't have to interfere either to regulate or to persecute. Regarding this issues laissez faire, laissez passer.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I don't see the difference between someone paying someone else for sexual pleasure and someone paying someone else to fix their toilet. Not charging taxes for one of these would be exempting a business sector from taxation

Well, I can sure see the difference.
Regarding taxes if the State collects from prostitution that makes it the biggest pimp. The State just can't or shouldn't do it. A "Person of Good" it's how we define the role of State around here (yes, it's a funny thing, I know...). I don't know how do you translate it but you should have this figure at your juridic order also.

Originally posted by belfrager:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I don't see the difference between someone paying someone else for sexual pleasure and someone paying someone else to fix their toilet. Not charging taxes for one of these would be exempting a business sector from taxation

Well, I can sure see the difference.
Regarding taxes if the State collects from prostitution that makes it the biggest pimp. The State just can't or shouldn't do it. A "Person of Good" it's how we define the role of State around here (yes, it's a funny thing, I know...). I don't know how do you translate it but you should have this figure at your juridic order also.

The state collects tax on so much vice already: our previous government loved super-casinos, there's always tax increases on alcohol and tobacco.
Our state knows that gambling is wanted by the people and lets us do it; though we're constantly reminded to gamble responsibly.
I noted already that I dislike pimping as the potential for encouragement and exploitation is strong in any vice industry and probably none moreso than prostitution since the product is a person. We rely (as I'm sure you do) on the government to remind us that these things, though permitted, should be treat carefully.

Why should prostitution be any different? People of Good can have the wisdom to allow the people their vices.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

I don't. It's their lives and private relationship, State doesn't have to interfere either to regulate or to persecute. Regarding this issues laissez faire, laissez passer.

Maybe. There are some potential health issues though. For instance, you really don't want unprotected sex to be the norm due to capitalist competition on the market. Same reason you regulate any industry.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Well, I can sure see the difference.

Regarding taxes if the State collects from prostitution that makes it the biggest pimp. The State just can't or shouldn't do it. A "Person of Good" it's how we define the role of State around here (yes, it's a funny thing, I know...). I don't know how do you translate it but you should have this figure at your juridic order also.

Person of Good? I don't think I'm familiar with such a concept in the judicial system.

Over here the tax system is based on income; the source is essentially irrelevant (except for tax deductions). Perhaps that's different in Portugal? Well, and there's VAT on services or goods provided, which again is just the same for anything (although mom & pop bakeries, barber shops and such might get exceptions with a lower VAT to stimulate them). In the end you would have to make specific legal exemptions , and I don't see any particular reason for exemptions, I guess.

Regarding the pimp thing I'm not sure, though that mostly seems emotional appeal to some abusive stereotypical image. The Person of Good should be the one to rise above that and also to prevent it?

Originally posted by Frenzie:

"already infected a few hundred customers" fify
I know some people who sleep around with tons of people without involving any prostitutes. The main difference in my eyes is that prostitutes get paid for it.

Unlike playboy/slut or regular people, prostitute sleep with many different customers everyday. Do the math, if a prostitute got 10 customers per day, multiply that by 30 (a month) that would be 300 times per month. Do you know anyone that's not prostitute or gigolo, have sex 300 times every month with different sex partners?

Even if half of the customers are repeat customer, she might have infected 150 people. If you argue that condom will protect most of 'em, then you should know that most men doesn't like to use condom, & they willing to pay more, coerce/rape the prostitute, or get prostitutes who doesn't use condom protection. Also, condom are not as reliable as many believe, it's not a bullet proof vest - especially condom made in China.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Younger women meaning?

What else? Young, unspoiled fresh-meat. The younger the better!
Not some worn-out, infected, saggy old hag...

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I don't see what your obsession with female prostitutes is, anyway.

Because I saw what happened to victim of prostitution & sex trafficking, first hand.

My cousin was one of those unfortunate victim that got tricked by "loverboy" into prostitution at young age of 18, later she got trafficked into foreign countries. My grandfather spend a butt load of money to track her down, & bought her back from Thailand. But it's a bit too late when we got her back because she's pregnant & totally broken (brainwashed into mindless sex-slave). She suffers from serious mental illness, inflict self-harm & attack people around her, repeat attempted suicide, she never fully recover from this horrible experience. That crook who put her through this ordeal were forced to marry her (because her illness gone bad to worst if without him), the only good thing he ever did is accompany & comfort her throughout the years (he probably feel guilty & try to make amendment). This happened over a decade ago, she's moving back & forth between home & psychiatric hospital regularly because she gone absolute nuts once awhile...

This is only one of many example, prostitution is illegal in where I live & thus allow authorities to save these brainwashed victims from sexual exploitation a lot easier. There are a lot of stupid young girls willingly prostitute their body for loverboy with serpent tongue, not knowing they're lier, pimp, or trafficker. If prostitution is legal, there are no way we could save these girls as long as they're prostitute their body for their "lover" under the impression of being voluntary. Even if the victim realized she was tricked into prostitution later on it would be very hard for her to get help, because those crooks will resort to any kind of inhuman method to continue exploiting her, just like what they did to my cousin.

Legalized prostitution do more harm than good, it encourage & expand sex trafficking, make it easier for crooks to exploit innocent youth.

Originally posted by WastedCharlie:

Why should prostitution be any different? People of Good can have the wisdom to allow the people their vices.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

The Person of Good should be the one to rise above that and also to prevent it?

I'll have to ask to some lawyer friend about the Person of Good concept origins and why it seems only to exist at Roman based juridic systems. I really don't know.

What seems very clear to me, and it couldn't be in any other way, it's that different societies and/or social groups have different regards about prostitution. In my opinion, it's a personal, private activity that should not be under the State jurisdiction, regulation and taxation by the reasons I've said. (Children prostitution it's a crime, of course.)
You regard prostitutes as entrepreneurs, free-lancers or liberal professionals. I regard them just as women at their private lives.

Another thing will be pornography. Because it's an organized industry that, and now I agree with you, I don't see any reason to be exempt of taxes and regulations just like any other media companies. Pornography and prostitution, although from the same "area", are not the same thing.

Originally posted by dude09:

Even if half of the customers are repeat customer, she might have infected 150 people. If you argue that condom will protect most of 'em, then you should know that most men doesn't like to use condom, & they willing to pay more, coerce/rape the prostitute, or get prostitutes who doesn't use condom protection. Also, condom are not as reliable as many believe, it's not a bullet proof vest - especially condom made in China.

I look at it pragmatically. Either we make such risks as small as possible through regulation, police protection and such, or the problem is more out-of-sight yet worse.

Originally posted by dude09:

What else? Young, unspoiled fresh-meat. The younger the better!

Not some worn-out, saggy old hag...

I assure you there's nothing saggy about my >25 y/o wife. But I'll readily admit that I haven't got a clue why anyone would visit a prostitute.

Originally posted by dude09:

Because I saw what happened to victim of prostitution & sex trafficking, first hand.

But surely that could happen to men as well?

Originally posted by dude09:

My cousin was one of those unfortunate victim that got tricked by "loverboy" into prostitution at young age of 18, later she got trafficked into foreign countries. My grandfather spend a butt load of money to track her down, & bought her back from Thailand. But it's a bit too late when we got her back because she's pregnant & totally broken (brainwashed into mindless sex-slave). She suffers from serious mental illness, inflict self-harm & attack people around her, repeat attempted suicide, she never fully recover from this horrible experience. That crook who put her through this ordeal were forced to marry her (because her illness gone bad to worst if without him), the only good thing he ever did is accompany & comfort her throughout the years (he probably feel guilty & try to make amendment). This happened over a decade ago, she's moving back & forth between home & psychiatric hospital regularly because she gone absolute nuts once awhile...

I'm sorry.

Originally posted by dude09:

This is only one of many example, prostitution is illegal in where I live & thus allow authorities to save these brainwashed victims from sexual exploitation a lot easier. There are a lot of stupid young girls willingly prostitute their body for loverboy with serpent tongue, not knowing they're lier, pimp, or trafficker. If prostitution is legal, there are no way we could save these girls as long as they're prostitute their body for their "lover" under the impression of being voluntary. Even if the victim realized she was tricked into prostitution later on it would be very hard for her to get help, because those crooks will resort to any kind of inhuman method to continue exploiting her, just like what they did to my cousin.

I'll have to look into that. I was under the impression that it (loverboys) was mostly an issue of people from Eastern Europe etc. trafficking (underage) women from their respective regions here. Not that this is any better than vice versa.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Another thing will be pornography. Because it's an organized industry that, and now I agree with you, I don't see any reason to be exempt of taxes and regulations just like any other media companies. Pornography and prostitution, although from the same "area", are not the same thing.

Pornography seems to be a respectable industry (obviously excluding child pornography), so I guess that from my point of view it's more a potential issue of danger due to criminals as dude09 describes than a fundamental difference.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I look at it pragmatically. Either we make such risks as small as possible through regulation, police protection and such, or the problem is more out-of-sight yet worse.

You know, just because there are regulations, that doesn't mean everyone will follow the rules. Whatever happen in the room between prostitute & her customer are beyond the control of authority. Sure, you can make laws to mandate the use of condom, but is that going to stop the customer wanting bareback sex? Please understand that when prostitution become a business, there will be competition. And when there are competition, customer will make crazy request & if prostitute can't meet the customer's demand she will lose the business. This is especially true when prostitute agreed on paid by period instead of one-shot deal, if she failed to endure the customer's abusive treatment within agreed time limit she won't get a single penny.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I assure you there's nothing saggy about my >25 y/o wife. " width="17" height="17"> But I'll readily admit that I haven't got a clue why anyone would visit a prostitute.

Of course, your wife is not a prostitute (I assumed)... Paying customer don't treat prostitute as delicately as you treat your wife in the bedroom.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

But surely that could happen to men as well?

Men can protect themselves better than women physically, but yes there are sex exploitation amongst men too.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I'll have to look into that. I was under the impression that it (loverboys) was mostly an issue of people from Eastern Europe etc. trafficking (underage) women from their respective regions here. Not that this is any better than vice versa.

Loverboy are one of the most common recruiter for sex trafficking organize crime in Asia (different places called 'em different names), they will hunt for underage or mature girl/women alike. Basically, loverboy also work as a pimp, they pick-up a victim, sweet talk her into prostitution & leech on her until he found a new prey. Then sold the ex to sex trafficker & continue training the new girl. This is why I'm so against legalized prostitution, because it provide a legal loophole for these predator to prey on innocent youth!

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Pornography seems to be a respectable industry (obviously excluding child pornography), so I guess that from my point of view it's more a potential issue of danger due to criminals as dude09 describes than a fundamental difference.

Pornography industry are not as glamorous as many think, those girls that strip or perform seductive acts in front of the camera doesn't get much money for it. They mainly do so to gain popularity, 15 seconds of fame if you will. However, if they got lucky & become famous in the process then they will be able to break into other entertainment industry, or become some rich folk's mistress. Sex trafficking happen behind the scene, where idols & celebrities coerce by their sponsor to "date" with rich & powerful businessmen/politicians to recoup money invested on them. Just googled a bit & you will find some old news about Asian idols suffer from depression & commit suicides after force into high-class sex trafficking...

Originally posted by dude09:

Of course, your wife is not a prostitute (I assumed)...

I think not.

Originally posted by dude09:

Loverboy are one of the most common recruiter for sex trafficking organize crime in Asia (different places called 'em different names), they will hunt for underage or mature girl/women alike. Basically, loverboy also work as a pimp, they pick-up a victim, sweet talk her into prostitution & leech on her until he found a new prey. Then sold the ex to sex trafficker & continue training the new girl. This is why I'm so against legalized prostitution, because it provide a legal loophole for these predator to prey on innocent youth!

I see what you mean, though it seems just how it's legalized and regulated makes all the difference in the world. The situation in the Netherlands and Germany seems alright (as in not worse to better than it used to be and certainly no worse than in surrounding countries where it's more illegal), whereas in Greece it's completely out of hand.

Originally posted by dude09:

Pornography industry are not as glamorous as many think

Glamorous? Can't say I ever thought that.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I see what you mean, though it seems just how it's legalized and regulated makes all the difference in the world. The situation in the Netherlands and Germany seems alright (as in not worse to better than it used to be and certainly no worse than in surrounding countries where it's more illegal), whereas in Greece it's completely out of hand.

Appearance could be deceiving... What goes on behind the closed doors doesn't always end up in the report or so called "annual research" sponsored by those who's milking the legal prostitution industry. There are some research about legal prostitution done by non-profit organization, these are more reliable than those bogus official viral report put together to convince people that the regulation works, & the condition of regulated prostitute is getting better.

Here is the thing, average statistics from various research from interviewed prostitutes about whether they want to remain in the prostitution business or not: 89% want out, but can't because of certain circumstances. Guess what's the "circumstances" are? & who's behind 'em? Legalized prostitute only legalized the pimp, turn them into legal pimps & sex traffickers. Well, at least they're sharing some profits with you by paying taxes...

Googled for prostitute testimony if you're interested in those details & statistics, some testimony will change your opinion on legalized prostitution as safer alternative.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

The situation in the Netherlands and Germany seems alright (as in not worse to better than it used to be and certainly no worse than in surrounding countries where it's more illegal), whereas in Greece it's completely out of hand.

I can imagine the satisfaction for that population about knowing that the prostitute is registered, paying taxes, having a 35 hours/week schedule and a complain book for clients. Maybe inserting them a chip, for their own security of course.

It really seems alright... the State it's taking care of everything, order and control rules even in bed... they can sleep at peace..
I wonder why so many near future anticipation literature includes State regulated sexual activity at those nightmare visions.

Originally posted by dude09:

Here is the thing, average statistics from various research from interviewed prostitutes about whether they want to remain in the prostitution business or not: 89% want out, but can't because of certain circumstances. Guess what's the "circumstances" are? & who's behind 'em? Legalized prostitute only legalized the pimp, turn them into legal pimps & sex traffickers. Well, at least they're sharing some profits with you by paying taxes...

Well, I'd like to stop working, but there are certain circumstances that necessitate it. All kidding aside, I'm getting the impression that this is similar to the burqa ban to some extent. Banning the burqa effectively locks the hundred women or so affected inside their house while the misogynist culture is less visible to the outside world. The organization for prostitutes I linked to earlier has some interesting pages (also this).

Originally posted by dude09:

Googled for prostitute testimony if you're interested in those details & statistics, some testimony will change your opinion on legalized prostitution as safer alternative.

But everything you're talking about is sexual violence. Also see here.

While I certainly sympathize with what you're saying I have this leery feeling that it's similar in principle to the Islamic argument that women should cover themselves from top to toe to protect themselves from the evil men, incapable of controlling their urges if they see some feminine sexuality.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

I can imagine the satisfaction for that population about knowing that the prostitute is registered, paying taxes, having a 35 hours/week schedule and a complain book for clients. Maybe inserting them a chip, for their own security of course.

It really seems alright... the State it's taking care of everything, order and control rules even in bed... they can sleep at peace..
I wonder why so many near future anticipation literature includes State regulated sexual activity at those nightmare visions.

I'm not sure why you aren't protesting against the same thing for, say, grocery store employees, but yes, I do think privacy is very important and has been treated like dirt post 9/11.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I'm not sure why you aren't protesting against the same thing for, say, grocery store employees, but yes, I do think privacy is very important and has been treated like dirt post 9/11.

But I am. Prostitution doesn't refers only to full-time prostitutes, if the grocery store employee decides to agree whatever it is regarding her personal or sexual life, it's up to her. State doesn't have to regulate or legalize nothing about.

Anyway a lot of women receives material advantage (including money) in return for sexual favors and they are not even considered prostitutes. And this leads to the question if it's the money that defines prostitution or if it's about the public characteristic of their activity. It seems that if it happens with just one man (or at least just one man at the time) it's not considered prostitution.
Another reason for not being regulated or taxed since it's not money transaction that defines it. It's just a personal, private thing.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I'm getting the impression that this is similar to the burqa ban to some extent. Banning the burqa effectively locks the hundred women or so affected inside their house while the misogynist culture is less visible to the outside world.

How is that the same as criminalize prostitution? If prostitution is illegal, then existing prostitutes can move to other legal occupations, they still have other choices of job to earn a living. But if we decriminalized prostitution, we're opening the floodgate for sex traffickers to breed & exploit women for both legal & illegal purposes, create wider demands by provide easier access to child prostitution & women trafficking under the gist of legal prostitution... The authority having difficulty to abolished illegal prostitution previously, legalized some prostitution didn't diminished illegal prostitution but actually fan the wild fire to spread even more furiously.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

But everything you're talking about is sexual violence.

Prostitution is not just about sex, various customer go to prostitute for many other reason. Violence is apart of prostitution, someone bound to get abuse by violence & humiliate treatment in prostitution. I remember there is a story about teenager killed a prostitute during sexual act because she make fun of his little tiny stick... But the even more shocking part is the boy demanded the prostitute to role-play as his teacher, so that he can rape her to avenge his anger toward his teacher. In this case it's not about sex, it's about inflicting violence & humiliation toward another human being. The prostitute become an "object" to suffer the boy's anger toward his teacher, just like when normal people go rampage, kicking, punching, & breaking things around him when he's mad. I find it hard to believe that many would simply brush this topic off as another rant when it's brought to the table, maybe it makes people feel uncomfortable? It should, because it's very cruel to degrade a living breathing human being into something lifeless, & use IT as you please.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I have this leery feeling that it's similar in principle to the Islamic argument that women should cover themselves from top to toe to protect themselves from the evil men, incapable of controlling their urges if they see some feminine sexuality.

I agreed that covering one self completely from perverted men to tame their urges is just plain stupid, because it actually make those men even more horny, & curiosity always get the best of 'em. However, if a naked woman walks amongst men in a seductive manner intended to turn heads & cause chaos, could you blame anyone that would jump on her?

Prostitution allowed human to be treated as object in most inhumane manners, that's why it shouldn't be allowed. Prostitutes are vulnerable to be abused, tortured, humiliated by another human being physically & mentally because that's what prostitution is, submit one body to another's insatiable lust & perverse desire - in exchange for money. The prostitution industry try to portrait prostitution as some kind of acceptable "practice" or "profession" since the beginning of history. IMHO some practice & profession should be left in history, civilized nation shouldn't continue condone practices that blatantly violating the human rights, & reduced human being into object. The authority should be working on resolution to help prostitutes to get out of prostitution instead of jump into bed with pimps & milking prostitutes like cows...

Originally posted by dude09:

However, if a naked woman walks amongst men in a seductive manner intended to turn heads & cause chaos, could you blame anyone that would jump on her?

Yes. Each and every one of the bastards.

Originally posted by dude09:

IMHO some practice & profession should be left in history, civilized nation shouldn't continue condone practices that blatantly violating the human rights, & reduced human being into object.

Alright. As long as it's also forbidden for men.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Yes. Each and every one of the bastards.

Ops, I forgot about it's a norm in nude beaches...

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Alright. As long as it's also forbidden for men.

Of course.

Originally posted by dude09:

Ops, I forgot about it's a norm in nude beaches...

I was talking about the jumping on, of course. But staring would probably get them a kick in the balls.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by dude09:

Ops, I forgot about it's a norm in nude beaches...

I was talking about the jumping on, of course. But staring would probably get them a kick in the balls.

If it's a really hard kick it may qualify them for a darwin award

Originally posted by dude09:

But if we decriminalized prostitution, we're opening the floodgate for sex traffickers to breed & exploit women for both legal & illegal purposes, create wider demands by provide easier access to child prostitution & women trafficking under the gist of legal prostitution... The authority having difficulty to abolished illegal prostitution previously, legalized some prostitution didn't diminished illegal prostitution but actually fan the wild fire to spread even more furiously.

Is it an indisputable fact that more regulation and enforcement couldn't reduce those abuses?

I don't see how criminalising and pushing things further underground is a good solution, and when that's done it often seems more about sweeping problems under the carpet than actually helping people. I don't see why it's impossible to crack down on child abuse and slavery while letting consenting adults work legally. That's what we do in other industries, and I'm not convinced that prostitution is inherently so radically different. Clearly there are a lot of problems with the system in the Netherlands, but then there are major problems where it's criminalised, and that criminalisation itself directly hurts people in the industry.

New Zealand has decriminalisation, yet doesn't appear to have the same problems to the same extent. The UK has partially legal prostitution, with prostitution generally tolerated even when illegal (there are brothels, massage parlours and escort agencies everywhere), yet trafficking and child prostitution are a fairly rare problem. Rhode Island in America is another example; campaigners argued that it was sure to be a trafficking hotspot because indoor prostitution was legal, yet an extensive police investigation didn't uncover the predicted slaves (of course they decided to re-criminalise it anyway). What you've said doesn't seem to hold true for prostitution in every location where it's legal/semi-legal.

Originally posted by dude09:

Prostitution is not just about sex, various customer go to prostitute for many other reason. Violence is apart of prostitution, someone bound to get abuse by violence & humiliate treatment in prostitution.

You could cite examples of domestic abuse as an argument that violence is a part of relationships. There are definitely people who date someone because they want to dominate, control and abuse another human being. Despite that we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater by making laws to ban the whole institution. Instead laws target the actual abuses and leave the consenting non-violent relationships alone.

I'm not convinced that violence is an inherent part of prostitution that can't be minimised. There are examples of people who've been horribly abused by pimps and violent customers, but then there are people who talk about liking their job and working for 20+ years without experiencing violence in the sex industry. You can find people who've worked as prostitutes arguing both for and against the sex industry, but from what I can see most favour some form of legalisation/decriminalisation, including some people who've been trafficked and abused.

I find it interesting to read just how varied experiences seem to be for different people, in different countries, and different situations. I don't think you can accurately portray prostitution as something that's unchanging and monolithic, it definitely doesn't conform to a single stereotype.

Originally posted by dude09:

However, if a naked woman walks amongst men in a seductive manner intended to turn heads & cause chaos, could you blame anyone that would jump on her?

Yes I'd blame them; they'd be entirely to blame for their own actions. Would you say that a stripper was asking for it if a customer decided to "jump on her" when she got her kit off?

Nobody has it coming just because they show some skin, act in a way that's perceived as seductive, or work in the sex industry. People are capable of controlling themselves, and can make a choice not to act on their basest instincts when those actions hurt someone else.

Originally posted by dude09:

The authority should be working on resolution to help prostitutes to get out of prostitution instead of jump into bed with pimps & milking prostitutes like cows...

I'd agree that there needs to be more done to help people who are enslaved, to tackle poverty, and to help people get off drugs, but I don't see why criminalising all prostitution is necessary to further those goals.

A lot of people are still going to work in prostitution for one reason or another; treating them like criminals (which is the case to a certain extent even in Sweden), and driving the industry further underground, doesn't do much to help them. You still get plenty of women working as prostitutes in countries where there's a half decent welfare state to support them, and in the UK, for example, only a minority (around 10%) are drug addicts working on the streets, and a much smaller minority than that are trafficking victims.

Just as the poster above has said making prostitution a legal trade does not make it safer. Most of the crimes that involves prostitutes as the victim in Nigeria usually goes unsolved. More effort is likely to be devoted to other cases than one involving prostitutes.
I have a question regarding the picture above. Is that really a showglass display of a whorehouse? Or a lingerie store?

Originally posted by jivelissie:

I have a question regarding the picture above. Is that really a showglass display of a whorehouse? Or a lingerie store?

I think it looks kinda Amsterdamish.

Originally posted by jivelissie:

I have a question regarding the picture above. Is that really a showglass display of a whorehouse? Or a lingerie store?

This is how you know they are the same thing.

I've never seen a lingerie store employing women to sit or stand around like that. Unless I mistook a lingerie store in some foreign country for a brothel, anyway.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I've never seen a lingerie store employing women to sit or stand around like that. Unless I mistook a lingerie store in some foreign country for a brothel, anyway.

Is a live woman on display somehow better or different than an artificial woman or man? When you mistake a lingerie store for a brothel, there is actually no mistake. They have the same effect on the atmosphere of the street.

Mannequins certainly seem a heck of a lot cheaper.

When a woman acts like a prostitute, she might easily be one. But there are women who actually aren't prostitutes and they don't always act like this either. There is no such uncertainty about a mannequin. A man who has nothing against a mannequin would certainly have nothing against a prostitute, it's just that he can't afford one.

Vaguely, it seems that the problem is not limited to economy.