FIFA fo fum

FIFA fo fum

So the Hosts of the World Cup are about to be chosen.

I hope it doesn't go to penalties.

With the present world situation everyone will now enjoy a good circus!

A good circus? Great! *runs off to get some and : popcron: to watch the show

Apparently Putin has chickened out

with allegations of corruption of officials flying around i develop an interest. if allowed i would vote for spain.

Originally posted by grysmn:

With the present world situation everyone will now enjoy a good circus!

Bread and circuses, nice. Where's the bread?

Originally posted by Belfrager:

Originally posted by grysmn:

With the present world situation everyone will now enjoy a good circus!

Bread and circuses, nice. Where's the bread?

In FIFA's pockets?

and the winner is russia for 2018

and for 2022 is Qatar from middle east.

I wonder why.

sad, the looks on those school children faces in London. they probably asking their parent why?

Spain (and Portugal) will be disappointed, the best team in the world deserved a reward such as the World Cup. But it seems that established football nations need not apply.

Good luck to football in Russia and Qatar.

But now some focus will (or should) be switching to FIFA - Are there corrupted officials in FIFA? Is it right that 22 people alone should decide such things? Should 2 World Cups be decided at the same time with the dangers of collusion? What, exactly, are the criteria for winning a World Cup? Should FIFA pay tax (at the moment they don't as part of their conditions for giving a favourable decision)?

Originally posted by string:

Spain (and Portugal) will be disappointed

No, (I'm) not.
No one deserves such a barbarian cataclysm as a world football's cup. It's enough to me living near a football stadium, thank you.

FIFA remembers me Mr Mosley's F1 organization. I think FIFA is worst, at least F1 still has some glamour.

Originally posted by Belfrager:

No one deserves such a barbarian cataclysm as a world football's cup.

Ahhh yes! I remember France 98. Good times we had. Good times

Congrats to Russia.

Already we are seeing the ual English attitude when the get beaten at something and hint it is someone else's intrigue or fault. On the BBC News one comment was in a report indicating that Russia which had been castigated in Wikii got the event with the ballyhoo about corruption and gansterism. With that kind of being miffed how do they explain the Olympics going to Red China?!Kind of poor attitude and nonsense that.

Meh. All that football brings is hooliganism. You won't see that in rugby.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Congrats to Russia.

Already we are seeing the ual English attitude when the get beaten at something and hint it is someone else's intrigue or fault. On the BBC News one comment was in a report indicating that Russia which had been castigated in Wikii got the event with the ballyhoo about corruption and gansterism. With that kind of being miffed how do they explain the Olympics going to Red China?!Kind of poor attitude and nonsense that.

That's rubbish, rjh and you should know it, and, I must say, typically Scottish and mean spirited.

As far as the English bid was concerned it was certainly a stitch up. The work done by the Times and by the BBC in exposing corruption in FIFA needed to be done but was clearly foremost in the mind of Blatter at least. It was reported that Blatter made opening remarks at the meeting where the vote was taken to the effect that the bad behaviour of the English Press should be taken into account. Putin, prior to the event, insinuated that all that orchestrated by the English bidding team as some sort of underhand pressure on FIFA, either choosing or simply not knowing that the British Press is in no way controlled by the "Authorities" unlike the regressed controlled freaks in Russia.

But it was not just England that missed out, Spain and Portugal had a good enough bid, and the choice of Qatar for the following World Cup was not just odd, it was crazy and an insult to the other bidding nations who have real football credentials and passion. It shows that FIFA is not really interested in bids from the established football nations, which now includes the USA. Germany, Argentinian, France, ...... all of them need not apply because their bids will not be taken seriously because the political day dreaming in FIFA is already fixated on the next non-footballing location where they can cast their thrall. The whole bidding and judgement process is flawed, as is FIFA itself. There are criteria which are hidden from the bidders and it is in the hands of too few people and it considers itself above the law. It needs to reform itself, much like the IOC has done rather successfully.

The English bid had the additional overlay of reaction of FIFA to the audacity of a free press exposing corruption within its ranks. They clearly prefer not to know these things.

Lastly, those who did not watch the BBC Panorama programme may not know this, but the point was made there, that Blatter himself bears heavy responsibility for turning a blind eye to what has been going on in his organisation. That explains a lot.

Originally posted by string:

The work done by the Times and by the BBC in exposing corruption in FIFA needed to be done but was clearly foremost in the mind of Blatter at least.

Originally posted by string:

where the vote was taken to the effect that the bad behaviour of the English Press should be taken into account

this is one of those times that the British will wish they could control their media. the British media was a little bit arduous and relentless in their investigative journalism. don't get me wrong, am not saying that exposing allegedly corrupt FIFA officials is a bad idea but you have to agree with me that the timing might be... it might just be a contributing factor to their loss of the bid, its an opinion shared by many.

Originally posted by string:

and the choice of Qatar for the following World Cup was not just odd, it was crazy and an insult to the other bidding nations who have real football credentials and passion.

Insult??? because Qatar is in the middle east or because they are not popular in terms of football. So you are saying that country like Qatar who does not have "real football credentials and passion" or perhaps in England case have the like of Prince Charles, David B as their spokesperson should not be given an opportunity to host ???

Originally posted by string:

It shows that FIFA is not really interested in bids from the established football nations,

yes they are not, and i totally agree with them. the idea behind it is to allow other nations to participate actively in football. England already has a lot going for them (football wise) i dont think its too much to ask to allow others the opportunity. Thanks to Blatter, who ever imagine that an African country will have a chance to host the tournament.

Originally posted by jivelissie:

because Qatar is in the middle east

Yeah, that's why string said that.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by jivelissie:

because Qatar is in the middle east

Yeah, that's why string said that.

i wouldnt be surprised. very British indeed.

Typically Scottish and mean spirited is it string?? You are well into the state of mind that I mention when England loses something. Your comment is even more silly considering i have always stated here my antagonism towards the nationalism bent namely the SNP attitude. You bring it on yourselves time and time again and only encourage those up here who get sniffy about the English. On BBC News a commentator mentioned the support coming from the "future King of England". Prime Minister Cameron repeated the same comment. This does not go down well in Scotland, Ulster or Wales. And anyway the future Heir should not have been involved in this thing.

I grant you that FIFA is hardly whiter than white and one of their committee has referred to the Times article on corruption but I make no apology for the way that England always falls back on everyone else rather than them. Again today I see yet another media item about using Wikki's anti-Russian aspect to moan about England's loss. I can well understand too the disappointment after a slick campaign but this yet again is the usual English pattern.

Originally posted by rjhowie:

Typically Scottish and mean spirited is it string?? You are well into the state of mind that I mention when England loses something. Your comment is even more silly considering i have always stated here my antagonism towards the nationalism bent namely the SNP attitude. You bring it on yourselves time and time again and only encourage those up here who get sniffy about the English. On BBC News a commentator mentioned the support coming from the "future King of England". Prime Minister Cameron repeated the same comment. This does not go down well in Scotland, Ulster or Wales. And anyway the future Heir should not have been involved in this thing.

I grant you that FIFA is hardly whiter than white and one of their committee has referred to the Times article on corruption but I make no apology for the way that England always falls back on everyone else rather than them. Again today I see yet another media item about using Wikki's anti-Russian aspect to moan about England's loss. I can well understand too the disappointment after a slick campaign but this yet again is the usual English pattern.

I agree with you about the King of England thing, if we want to save the Union then that should change as should the singing of God save the Queen at England Internationals. However, unfortunately the invidious Scottish habit of wishing England ill in sporting events shines through your remarks. Remember the thing that Andy Murray said about supporting “any team that was playing England”? “Mean spirited” is a phrase that could be improved upon, but it suits your remarks well enough. Such things grate and are gradually eroding relations. Until relatively recently I had never found English people wishing ill on Scottish teams but it's now beginning to happen. The SNP would be pleased about that.

I’ve lived away from the UK for more than 30 years (34 actually) and am quite able to look at my fellow countrymen with some sort of objectivity and while I would agree that there are some sour grapes around, notably in comics like the Daily Mail, the chief sort of contention is about the manner of the voting – on several counts.
1 the fact that only a single non-English vote was given, in spite of promises given, shows clearly that the decision was not on footballing grounds or on the merits of the bid
2 lies were told by FIFA members to the Bidding team
3 debriefing to the bidding team buy FIFA people admitted that the press coverage was a major factor; a should-be-nonsense since press is not controlled by Government in the UK as you know.
4 The main, and possibly only, criterion for selection was to place the World Cup in a new Geographical region, so that from the outset many countries (not just England) were wasting their effort and money from the start (think of Australia who reportedly spent over 40 Million dollars on their disqualified-at-the-outset Bid).

So nor is the matter limited to parochial English disappointment, the Qatar nonsense shows clear bad faith by FIFA.

By the way, look at the link I posted in reply to jivelissie's comments

Originally posted by jivelissie:

this is one of those times that the British will wish they could control their media. the British media was a little bit arduous and relentless in their investigative journalism. don't get me wrong, am not saying that exposing allegedly corrupt FIFA officials is a bad idea but you have to agree with me that the timing might be... it might just be a contributing factor to their loss of the bid, its an opinion shared by many.

No the British, and this includes England, are glad of their free press, maybe a difficult concept to grasp for some. It is the essential ingredient of a free society --- you know freedom of speech and all that. So far two FIFA members have been suspended and three more have serious cases to answer. Blatter himself has responsibility since this has happened on his watch. This is not the sort of thing that should be swept under the carpet. The truth must come out. This something about which Putin has no grasp at all, and obviously Blatter & Co could not care less.

Originally posted by jivelissie:

Originally posted by string:

and the choice of Qatar for the following World Cup was not just odd, it was crazy and an insult to the other bidding nations who have real football credentials and passion.

Insult??? because Qatar is in the middle east or because they are not popular in terms of football. So you are saying that country like Qatar who does not have "real football credentials and passion" or perhaps in England case have the like of Prince Charles, David B as their spokesperson should not be given an opportunity to host ??? .

Qatar was not a competitor for the same World Cup that England bid for.
I suggest you read this article; my comment was not about the English Bid, it was specific to the other World Cup vote, although the comment is relevant to all bidders in both World Cups;
World Cup 2018 and 2022 - FIFA Corruption - Football Fans are the Losers

Originally posted by jivelissie:

Originally posted by string:

It shows that FIFA is not really interested in bids from the established football nations,

yes they are not, and i totally agree with them. the idea behind it is to allow other nations to participate actively in football. England already has a lot going for them (football wise) i don’t think its too much to ask to allow others the opportunity. Thanks to Blatter, who ever imagine that an African country will have a chance to host the tournament..

Quatar was definitely a crazy choice – see the article above.

In response to the linked article which originates from Australia btw.
let me enumerate his points as to the reason why Russia and Qatar are not a good choice of location.
-that most fans will probably not turn up in Russia for some unknown reason.
- that Qatar will be too hot for fan to turn up.
Well, like i have said before FIFA's idea is to allow other countries who are not popularly known as a footballing nation to participate more in soccer. Which personally i dont think is such a bad idea. therefore, if in the course of doing so the locations of the tournament is unpopular among some establish football nation/fans. Then so be it.
The author of that article agrees with the fact that Southafrica was a success but in terms of fans turnup it was a failure. I say its a negligible failure because the aftermath of the tournament recorded a boost in the SA soccer scene. FIFA deserve a great applause for that if the same can be done in Russia and Qatar.

Originally posted by string:

Quatar was definitely a crazy choice – see the article above.

Crazy? Because Qatar is going to be too hot for some fan's skin. Give me a valid reason then i might concur.

For those that may be interested and have not had the chance to look at this, The BBC's programme on FIFA is shown on the following two links:
BBC Panorama: FIFA'S DIRTY SECRETS - Part 1 of 2
BBC Panorama: FIFA'S DIRTY SECRETS - Part 2 of 2

The essence of the report seems to be:

A list was found which detailed large payments made, including payments to the three FIFA executives.

The alleged payments were discussed in a Swiss court of Law and no charges were made. Blatter states that there was no criminal act done and thus the matter has been dealt with and no action is necessary.

However, the BBC report stated that at that time taking a bribe was not a crime in Switzerland, this being why there were no charges. However to take a bribe is against FIFA's rules, let alone immoral.

How much of this is absolute truth I cannot say, and the charges have been denied; but I do think they are sufficiently serious to warrant an investigation in those cases, to clear up the matter or exonerate the people involved.

In any event, IOC to investigate Fifa vice president Issa Hayatou over bribery claims


In my opinions FIFA has some house cleaning to do, and stricter rules of conduct applied.

Originally posted by jivelissie:

Originally posted by string:

Quatar was definitely a crazy choice – see the article above.

Crazy? Because Qatar is going to be too hot for some fan's skin. Give me a valid reason then i might concur.

You know perfectly well that the argument extends beyond people's skin, important though the temperature is (need for air conditioned stadia, welfare of the fans etc).
I suggest you read the posts again & article again and take in all the points made.

i have read the article thoroughly and the point that was made against Qatar is that the environment will be ''too hot and inhuman'' for visiting football fans. There is nothing that can be done about the climatic condition unless it can be scheduled at a less hostile period within the time frame . Interested traveller will only have to be well prepared. I live in a similar environment its not such a big deal.

Originally posted by string:

In my opinions FIFA has some house cleaning to do, and stricter rules of conduct applied.

I agree with you on that.

In 2018, will there be a Russia?
In 2022, will there be a Qatar?

lets wait and see

Originally posted by string:

Originally posted by jivelissie:

this is one of those times that the British will wish they could control their media. the British media was a little bit arduous and relentless in their investigative journalism. don't get me wrong, am not saying that exposing allegedly corrupt FIFA officials is a bad idea but you have to agree with me that the timing might be... it might just be a contributing factor to their loss of the bid, its an opinion shared by many.

No the British, and this includes England, are glad of their free press, maybe a difficult concept to grasp for some. It is the essential ingredient of a free society --- you know freedom of speech and all that.

Hear, hear.

We survived 2000, and the Hadron Collider. We'll survive 2012 too.

And why wouldn't there the two countries be here? I am sorry that England didn't win the bid being a home nation but good luck to Russia for winning. The tendency to look like sour grapes is emerging. After their European flop they say trouble comes in threes. Wonder what next?!

Oh - as I told jivelissie, read the posts in this thread, rjh, and you will find some answers.

But just to get you a little help:

It's to do with the way in which the voting was conducted. It becomes clear that FIFA's intention was to get the world cups to new parts of the world.

If one follows football one gets used to loosing, so loosing to another in the "Host World Cup location" competition would be a familiar hurt, but not create the same type of disgruntlement as-knowing one was duped and a growing suspicion that the whole voting process was flawed at best and corrupt at worse.

Ignoring their own delegate's vote, note that in their respective first rounds of voting England got just one vote, America got just 2 votes and Australia got no votes at all at all (!) in spite of all three having good bids. They and other countries not coming from "new" areas were conned into wasting money, a lot of money, on their bid process without even a remote chance of winning the "honour" of being host. Australia spent $40million for absolutely nothing.

There is, in principle, a valid argument for holding the World Cup in fresh places, but this was never flagged as an over-riding criteria for selection. But maybe the FIFA Executives like to be entertained all over the world in more comfortable places than Russia or Qatar.

At any rate Blatter goes down in the annals of FIFA History of having complete the set of venues to all parts of the world, unless there is a fiendish plot to have it in Antarctica as well after all why should being too cold be any worse that getting too hot. He will also be known as the person on whose watch, corruption was allowed to fester (the assertion being implied by FIFA in their suspicion of two delegates already).

The matter of corruption within the FIFA organisation was, I think, a sideline to the decision process, a fig-leaf on which to hang the decision as far as England was concerned, but it does not account for the bad treatment received by the USA and Australia.

Speaking of corruption, that particular saga rumbles on. In last Sunday's Sunday Times, it was reported that they had learnt, via a whistle-blower who was privy to some of the FIFA Executive's meetings, that "two of its executive members had agreed deals worth $1.5m for their votes ahead of last week's contest to host the World Cup". Whether this is taken further, is proved or whether FIFA is exonerated as being a gentlemanly club of scented virgins I don't know, but I do care that it is resolved and not hidden under a carpet. Fat chance I suppose.

As for Qatar, a country with a population of less than 1/3 that of Lagos (for jivelissie's benefit that), that choice is hardly the stuff of legacy.

I like FIFA style! Let new places (countries) be explored.

Originally posted by DANBUZU:

I like FIFA style! Let new places (countries) be explored.

... and the issues about corruption, do you like those as well?

Would you like to see those issues resolved?

<a href="http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12098_6562427,00.html">Blatter summed it all up</a>

Originally posted by jivelissie:

Blatter summed it all up

... and so did others in that report.

As far as Blatter is concerned, he said little other than that which would be expected from a man presiding over a dodgy organisation.

There was a lot of debate about the broadcast by the BBC prior to it being shown. The BBC had uncovered a prima-facia case against three of the FIFA executive members relating to money accepted contrary to FIFA rules. Some said that it should not be broadcast before the FIFA Vote, but the BBC decided to broadcast none-the-less knowing it might harm the English bid but believing it was of public concern on a matter which should be known before the voting and not afterwards where buck-passing comments about sour grapes would be chucked around to defect from their findings.

Blatter chooses to ignore the BBC input; in his protestations about zero corruption within FIFA, he also ignores the fact that he was forced to suspend two members of his committee; he also refuses to acknowledge that there is cause for investigation of two more members of the committee.

If he wants FIFA to be respected then he should show that FIFAs honest, not continue with his inaction and denials.

But I see he made a mistake of which I would certainly take advantage if I were in a position to do so: Blatter (last para of that report) apparently said: "when asked about calls by Cameron for a radical reform of Fifa, Blatter said: "Prime Minister Cameron is heartily invited to make his proposals."". I were Cameron, and Blatter should probably be glad I'm not, I would thank his for the offer and reply that I have decided to be ever so nice to him and give a considered reply to his suggestion and have passed the action to a special panel which will make some proposals, discuss it with other national organisations, and provide it to the international Football Community for discussion and decision. He's asked for it after all.

Common on people Russia? Wow get ready to see a lot of african fans end in hospitals or worst morgues. Isn't it glaring, Russia has a high rate- if not the highest- of racist attack. Imagine russia losing a crucial match to ghana during the competition? Do you know how many lives might pay for that? Even in football! Let's face facts and forget sentiments, england (even if I hate to admit this) is by far better than Russia in all capacity to host the world cup! And what's the rubbish about english press got to do with the selection process? FIFA is a shame. I can beat my chest and say I'm one of the greatest lover of the game alive and I know rubbish when I see it! Not even spain? That's madness! as for the Qatar selection I can sum it up in two words:
Arab Money.

Originally posted by jivelissie:

Blatter summed it all up

I guess I agree with hiim in the area of england sending the A-list team, like its the grammys or some common wealth meeting let's get real it was unnecessary! But the part where he talked about Christian countries not wanting others to host is totally rubbish! the truth still remains that bribery was an integral part of the selection! The presence of amos adamu is ample enough prove

Still think England is on the sour grapes.

On the matter of tax, I mentioned earlier when I reported on the BBC Panorama Programme that there were tax breaks given to FIFA when a World Cup was staged. Well belatedly I can point to more information on that in the following links, all of which were published before the World Cup vote; some comments made will be particularly interesting for those from Africa.

1 Offshore FIFA: making governments crawl on their bellies and beg
This was done in November and is a good place to start, it is fairly short and describes the situation in summary form. Note the remarks about Africa(*). It also noted "The Panorama investigation discovered a truly vast web of bribery - 175 payments totalling a truly gargantuan $100m"

2 World Cup: To tax or not to tax?
This is a BBC report, published in May. It is fairly detailed but worth reading.

3 Guarantees demanded by FIFA in Tax concessions from the Host Country.
This document was obligingly released by the Netherlands in April. Apparently FIFA Ike these things to be secret. It includes tax exemption for companies participating in the Word Cup event, for FIFA itself and for Individuals named by FIFA. A typical phrase, relating to tax-free payments, is ".... payments, fringe benefits, reimbursements and any other sort of compensation received ...". You need to read the report to see the context of that (its in section E 1). "Any other compensation" !!! Hmmmmmm, it makes you wonder.

I agree some need for tax concessions, or better "arrangements" since one could imagine, for example, the shear horror of each non-resident individual being involved in filling out tax forms from a foreign country and it's not normal anyway to pay tax on money earned in a country if you don't live there. But "170,000 foreigners" seems a trifle excessive (BBC Report). However the tax concessions seem way over the top and seem to ignore the enormous expenditure of the Host Nation in putting on the whole circus. Millions upon Millions upon Millions in any currency you care to think of are involved. Then there are foreign companies, each with the potential for making "compensations" to FIFA untaxed by the host country.

FIFA seems to regard itself as a sovereign, unaccountable, entity responsible to no-one. It avoids transparency, and hides its financial affairs, cosily located in Switzerland. It also refuses to take seriously the concerns expressed regarding possible corruption. Until they do take these concerns seriously many people will not be able to believe their protestations.

But more than that, one has to question the value of the World Cup to the Host, the football fans and the World at Large. Has the thing grown too large, too bloated, to be hosted by any but rich countries or one which already has all the infrastructure in place? Are the claims of supporting football in new locations wholehearted?

Edit:
1 (*) See also here : FIFA versus South Africa: a total victory
2 By the way:Fifa scandal prompts anti-graft law review (in Switzerland)

AFC: Qatar 2022 should be in winter
"Asian Football Confederation (AFC) general secretary Peter Velappan has recommended to FIFA that it changes the dates of the 2022 World Cup to January and February.

The World Cup is usually held across June and July, but temperatures in the desert state can top 40 degrees Celsius (104 Fahrenheit) at that time"



Might get to 50 deg by then, what with Global Warming!!

Originally posted by string:

AFC: Qatar 2022 should be in winter
"Asian Football Confederation (AFC) general secretary Peter Velappan has recommended to FIFA that it changes the dates of the 2022 World Cup to January and February.

The World Cup is usually held across June and July, but temperatures in the desert state can top 40 degrees Celsius (104 Fahrenheit) at that time"

The world cup is a world event, so it makes sense to remove the June/July geographic climate restriction. Its a good idea, being proactive and practical. And it will enliven winter, remove some of the winter tedium.

Originally posted by string:

AFC: Qatar 2022 should be in winter
"Asian Football Confederation (AFC) general secretary Peter Velappan has recommended to FIFA that it changes the dates of the 2022 World Cup to January and February.

The World Cup is usually held across June and July, but temperatures in the desert state can top 40 degrees Celsius (104 Fahrenheit) at that time"



Might get to 50 deg by then, what with Global Warming!!

quatar has proposed to build fully air conditioned stadiums

I guess that will solve that?

Originally posted by johnogaziechi:

quatar has proposed to build fully air conditioned stadiums ................. I guess that will solve that?

Yes they have proposed that. They plan to build 9 new stadium which, with the existing 3 stadiums, will make 12 all together. I read somewhere (but can't find a link at the moment) that the stadiums (the new ones presumably) will be designed to be temporary so that they can be "given" away to other countries after the World Cup. That is something I will only believe when I see them reassembled and in use, if ever.

All the stadiums are within 1 hours drive from the FIFA headquarters. They all look fabulous and challenging.

The air conditioning is, presumably, technically feasible although I can think of a few technical questions such as the noise from the jet engines providing the power (joke) and the ventilation necessary for large spaces and look forward to corner flags fluttering in the breeze. I don't know what the plans are for providing training pitches or for hotels but isolation from the heat will not be perfect. Bed and breakfast in a stadium would probably be cool, but drafty! Qatar is rather very small in population so existing facilities will be stretched.

The idea of moving the time of the World Cup to Jan/Feb would improve on the temperature problem and save Qatar a lot of money but would provide some headaches for football nations that have the heart of their season in the winter so if FIFA were to insist on that, it would make them even more unpopular.

Beer will be a problem.

The Lava Lounge

I meant Beer as in football - i.e. drunk almost to extinction. The Scots have even invented a device which pours the next beer out for you to enable more efficient imbibing and avoid waiting for the bubbles to disperse.(*)

Not that poncy cocktail-wink-at-the-barman stuff.


(*) note: this is a different approach to many continentals who prefer bubbles to beer.

Originally posted by string:

I meant Beer as in football - i.e. drunk almost to extinction.

Surely you exaggerate.
Could it be worse than this?