My Opera is closing 3rd of March

" THERE EXISTS GOLD , ALSO AN ABUNDACE OF CORALS ; BUT THE LIPS OF KNOWLEDGE ARE PRECIOUS VESSELS ." - Proverbs 20 : 15.

Trinity

Is It Clearly a Bible Teaching?
IF THE Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible. Why? Because, as the apostles affirmed, the Bible is God's revelation of himself to mankind. And since we need to know God to worship him acceptably, the Bible should be clear in telling us just who he is.


First-century believers accepted the Scriptures as the authentic revelation of God. It was the basis for their beliefs, the final authority. For example, when the apostle Paul preached to people in the city of Beroea, "they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so."-Acts 17:10, 11.
What did prominent men of God at that time use as their authority? Acts 17:2, 3 tells us: "According to Paul's custom . . . he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving by references [from the Scriptures]."
Jesus himself set the example in using the Scriptures as the basis for his teaching, repeatedly saying: "It is written." "He interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures."-Matthew 4:4, 7; Luke 24:27.
Thus Jesus, Paul, and first-century believers used the Scriptures as the foundation for their teaching. They knew that "all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."-2 Timothy 3:16, 17; see also 1 Corinthians 4:6; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Peter 1:20, 21.
Since the Bible can 'set things straight,' it should clearly reveal information about a matter as fundamental as the Trinity is claimed to be. But do theologians and historians themselves say that it is clearly a Bible teaching?
"Trinity" in the Bible?
A PROTESTANT publication states: "The word Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century." (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) And a Catholic authority says that the Trinity "is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God."-New Catholic Encyclopedia.
The Catholic Encyclopedia also comments: "In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word t??a? [tri'as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. . . . Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian."
However, this is no proof in itself that Tertullian taught the Trinity. The Catholic work Trinitas-A Theological Encyclopedia of the Holy Trinity, for example, notes that some of Tertullian's words were later used by others to describe the Trinity. Then it cautions: "But hasty conclusions cannot be drawn from usage, for he does not apply the words to Trinitarian theology."
Testimony of the Hebrew Scriptures
WHILE the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible, is at least the idea of the Trinity taught clearly in it? For instance, what do the Hebrew Scriptures ("Old Testament") reveal?
The Encyclopedia of Religion admits: "Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity." And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: "The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament]."
Similarly, in his book The Triune God, Jesuit Edmund Fortman admits: "The Old Testament . . . tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a Triune God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. . . . There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead. . . . Even to see in [the "Old Testament"] suggestions or foreshadowings or 'veiled signs' of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers."-Italics ours.
An examination of the Hebrew Scriptures themselves will bear out these comments. Thus, there is no clear teaching of a Trinity in the first 39 books of the Bible that make up the true canon of the inspired Hebrew Scriptures.
Testimony of the Greek Scriptures
WELL, then, do the Christian Greek Scriptures ("New Testament") speak clearly of a Trinity?
The Encyclopedia of Religion says: "Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity."
Jesuit Fortman states: "The New Testament writers . . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. . . . Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead."
The New Encyclopædia Britannica observes: "Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament."
Bernhard Lohse says in A Short History of Christian Doctrine: "As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity."
The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology similarly states: "The N[ew] T[estament] does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. 'The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence' [said Protestant theologian Karl Barth]."
Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins affirmed: "To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it."-Origin and Evolution of Religion.
Historian Arthur Weigall notes: "Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord."-The Paganism in Our Christianity.
Thus, neither the 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures nor the canon of 27 inspired books of the Christian Greek Scriptures provide any clear teaching of the Trinity.
Taught by Early Christians?
DID the early Christians teach the Trinity? Note the following comments by historians and theologians:
"Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds."-The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.
"The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the [Trinity] idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognised the . . . Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One."-The Paganism in Our Christianity.
"At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the N[ew] T[estament] and other early Christian writings."-Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics.
"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. . . . Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."-New Catholic Encyclopedia.
What the Ante-Nicene Fathers Taught
THE ante-Nicene Fathers were acknowledged to have been leading religious teachers in the early centuries after Christ's birth. What they taught is of interest.
Justin Martyr, who died about 165 C.E., called the prehuman Jesus a created angel who is "other than the God who made all things." He said that Jesus was inferior to God and "never did anything except what the Creator . . . willed him to do and say."
Irenaeus, who died about 200 C.E., said that the prehuman Jesus had a separate existence from God and was inferior to him. He showed that Jesus is not equal to the "One true and only God," who is "supreme over all, and besides whom there is no other."
Clement of Alexandria, who died about 215 C.E., called God "the uncreated and imperishable and only true God." He said that the Son "is next to the only omnipotent Father" but not equal to him.
Tertullian, who died about 230 C.E., taught the supremacy of God. He observed: "The Father is different from the Son (another), as he is greater; as he who begets is different from him who is begotten; he who sends, different from him who is sent." He also said: "There was a time when the Son was not. . . . Before all things, God was alone."
Hippolytus, who died about 235 C.E., said that God is "the one God, the first and the only One, the Maker and Lord of all," who "had nothing co-eval [of equal age] with him . . . But he was One, alone by himself; who, willing it, called into being what had no being before," such as the created prehuman Jesus.
Origen, who died about 250 C.E., said that "the Father and Son are two substances . . . two things as to their essence," and that "compared with the Father, [the Son] is a very small light."
Summing up the historical evidence, Alvan Lamson says in The Church of the First Three Centuries: "The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity . . . derives no support from the language of Justin [Martyr]: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and . . . holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact."
Thus, the testimony of the Bible and of history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown throughout Biblical times and for several centuries thereafter. love

source: Should You
Believe in the
Trinity ?
pp. 5-7

TRINITY How Did the Trinity Doctrine Develop?

Comments

Jamesleushino Monday, February 9, 2009 5:00:06 AM

True Christians throughout the ages have believed in one God. This God is trinitarian. That is to say, God includes three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. But if He is three persons, how can He be one God? This is the greatest mystery that the human mind can absorb. It does not perplex only us. We are not the only ones who cannot understand by rational means the great mystery of the Holy Trinity. Great wise men and the great Fathers of the Church had the same problem. One Father of the Church, St. Augustine, studied the mystery of the Holy Trinity and although he was at his wits' end, he still could not comprehend it. One day he was walking on the sandy beach by the ocean. There churned in his mind the mystery of the Holy Trinity. He was talking to himself: "One God, but three Persons. Three Persons--not three Gods but one God. What does it mean? How can it be explained? How can my mind take it in?" And so he was torturing his mind and beating his brains out, when he saw a little boy on the beach. He approached him to see what he was doing.

The child had dug a small hole in the sand. With his little hands he was carrying water from the ocean and was dumping it in the little hole. St. Augustine asked, "What are you doing, my child?" The child replied, "I want to put all of the water of the ocean into this hole." Once more St. Augustine asked, "But is it possible for all of the water of this great ocean to be contained in this little hole?" And the child asked him in return, "If the water of the ocean cannot be contained in this little hole, then how can the Infinite Trinitarian God be contained in your mind?" And the child disappeared. He was actually an angel.

St. Augustine learned his lesson. He reverently thanked God, Who taught him in such a miraculous way that the mystery of the Holy Trinity cannot be comprehended with human reasoning. It is a matter of faith rather than of human reasoning. Whoever believes in God lives the mystery of the Holy Trinity and does not require rational proof.

We ourselves cannot prove rationally the mystery of the Holy Trinity. It would not then be a mystery. However, we can mention a few verses from the Old and the New Testament that speak about the Holy Trinity and do not leave any doubt that God is One, but trinitarian. He has three Persons.

In the Old Testament, the emphasis falls mostly on God as one. Moses shouted aloud to the Israelites, "Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is One" (Deuteronomy, 6:4). In spite of this, even in the Old Testament there are indications and references to the Holy Trinity. Not clearly and plainly, but in a cloudy way and veiled. There are many verses in which God is presented as being comprised of more than one Person. At the creation of man we read, "And God said, Let Us make man in Our own image and likeness" (Genesis, 1:26). When men had committed many sins and when they were building the Tower of Babel not for the glory of God but for their own glory, in order to bring them to their senses, God decided to "confuse their tongues." And God said, "Let Us go down and there We will confuse their tongues." There are other references in the Old Testament where God speaks in the plural. But why so? He is not using the "royal plural" form of the verb. Simply put, this plural form refers to the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. More concretely, the Prophet Isaiah remarks that the angels, the Seraphim, fly about the throne of God and offer praises to Him, saying "Holy, holy, holy, Lord of the Sabbath, the entire earth is filled with His glory." Why "holy" three times? As the Fathers of the Church explain, it refers to the three Persons of the Holy Trinity. "Holy" is the Father. "Holy" is the Son. "Holy" is the Holy Spirit. In addition we have the hospitality of Abraham. There the three Persons of the Holy Trinity appeared as three angels.

The New Testament teaches about the mystery of the Holy Trinity more explicitly. When Christ was baptized in the Jordan River we have the appearance of the Holy Trinity. Christ was being baptized. The Holy Spirit descended in the form of a dove. The Father exclaimed from Heaven, "This is my beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased." For this reason the holy day for this event is called Theophany (the appearance of God). And after His Resurrection Christ said to His Disciples, "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." St. Paul greets the Corinthians, "The Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all." With all of these verses and many more, the New Testament does not leave any doubt that God is trinitarian. We cannot ask for an explanation of the mystery. It would not be a mystery if it had an explanation. We accept the truth of God and we understand it and we live it only through our faith.

A prayer for you, Molly:

Thrice Holy One, Trinitarian God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, we thank You that You have revealed Yourself to us. Together with the Seraphim, we glorify You, saying Holy is the Father, Holy is the Son, Holy is the Holy Spirit. We sinners humbly beseech You. Grant us peace and serenity. Lead the whole world to know You as You are, Trinitarian and Most Holy. Let no one be lost. Bring all to true faith. Unite us with Yourself. Keep us in Your love and in Your Kingdom.

Molly MedalazagreatMolly Monday, February 9, 2009 3:45:22 PM

Greetings to you James! Yes, that is a very popular belief in our time.But did you know that this is not what was taught by Jesus and his disciples? When Jesus was teaching , here is the commandment that he said was greatest ...(Mark 12:28-30); he never claimed to be equal to God...(John14:28).So how can we say that our Creator is trinitarian?

How Is the Trinity Explained?

THE Roman Catholic Church states: "The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion . . . Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: 'the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.' In this Trinity . . . the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent."-The Catholic Encyclopedia.

Nearly all other churches in Christendom agree. For example, the Greek Orthodox Church also calls the Trinity "the fundamental doctrine of Christianity," even saying: "Christians are those who accept Christ as God." In the book Our Orthodox Christian Faith, the same church declares: "God is triune. . . . The Father is totally God. The Son is totally God. The Holy Spirit is totally God."

Thus, the Trinity is considered to be "one God in three Persons." Each is said to be without beginning, having existed for eternity. Each is said to be almighty, with each neither greater nor lesser than the others.

Is such reasoning hard to follow? Many sincere believers have found it to be confusing, contrary to normal reason, unlike anything in their experience. How, they ask, could the Father be God, Jesus be God, and the holy spirit be God, yet there be not three Gods but only one God?

"Beyond the Grasp of Human Reason"

THIS confusion is widespread. The Encyclopedia Americana notes that the doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be "beyond the grasp of human reason."
Many who accept the Trinity view it that same way. Monsignor Eugene Clark says: "God is one, and God is three. Since there is nothing like this in creation, we cannot understand it, but only accept it." Cardinal John O'Connor states: "We know that it is a very profound mystery, which we don't begin to understand." And Pope John Paul II speaks of "the inscrutable mystery of God the Trinity."

Thus, A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge says: "Precisely what that doctrine is, or rather precisely how it is to be explained, Trinitarians are not agreed among themselves."

We can understand, then, why the New Catholic Encyclopedia observes: "There are few teachers of Trinitarian theology in Roman Catholic seminaries who have not been badgered at one time or another by the question, 'But how does one preach the Trinity?' And if the question is symptomatic of confusion on the part of the students, perhaps it is no less symptomatic of similar confusion on the part of their professors."

The truth of that observation can be verified by going to a library and examining books that support the Trinity. Countless pages have been written attempting to explain it. Yet, after struggling through the labyrinth of confusing theological terms and explanations, investigators still come away unsatisfied.

In this regard, Jesuit Joseph Bracken observes in his book What Are They Saying About the Trinity?: "Priests who with considerable effort learned . . . the Trinity during their seminary years naturally hesitated to present it to their people from the pulpit, even on Trinity Sunday. . . . Why should one bore people with something that in the end they wouldn't properly understand anyway?" He also says: "The Trinity is a matter of formal belief, but it has little or no [effect] in day-to-day Christian life and worship." Yet, it is "the central doctrine" of the churches!

Catholic theologian Hans Küng observes in his book Christianity and the World Religions that the Trinity is one reason why the churches have been unable to make any significant headway with non-Christian peoples. He states: "Even well-informed Muslims simply cannot follow, as the Jews thus far have likewise failed to grasp, the idea of the Trinity. . . . The distinctions made by the doctrine of the Trinity between one God and three hypostases do not satisfy Muslims, who are confused, rather than enlightened, by theological terms derived from Syriac, Greek, and Latin. Muslims find it all a word game. . . . Why should anyone want to add anything to the notion of God's oneness and uniqueness that can only dilute or nullify that oneness and uniqueness?"

"Not a God of Confusion"

HOW could such a confusing doctrine originate? The Catholic Encyclopedia claims: "A dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation." Catholic scholars Karl Rahner and Herbert Vorgrimler state in their Theological Dictionary: "The Trinity is a mystery . . . in the strict sense . . . , which could not be known without revelation, and even after revelation cannot become wholly intelligible."

However, contending that since the Trinity is such a confusing mystery, it must have come from divine revelation creates another major problem. Why? Because divine revelation itself does not allow for such a view of God: "God is not a God of confusion."-1 Corinthians 14:33, Revised Standard Version (RS).

In view of that statement, would God be responsible for a doctrine about himself that is so confusing that even Hebrew, Greek, and Latin scholars cannot really explain it?

Furthermore, do people have to be theologians 'to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent'? (John 17:3, JB) If that were the case, why did so few of the educated Jewish religious leaders recognize Jesus as the Messiah? His faithful disciples were, instead, humble farmers, fishermen, tax collectors, housewives. Those common people were so certain of what Jesus taught about God that they could teach it to others and were even willing to die for their belief.-Matthew 15:1-9; 21:23-32, 43; 23:13-36; John 7:45-49; Acts 4:13. love

source :Should You Believe in the Trinity ?
pp.5-7

Jamesleushino Monday, February 9, 2009 6:41:14 PM

In the beginning was the Word... and the Word was with God... and the Word WAS God.

Most Christians from antiquity to the present times, have believed in the trinitarian nature of God, Molly. As for people having to be theologians... you know the answer to that. My children when they were very young, had no problem grasping the idea that God is One and yet Three. There are many mysteries in this world and the next that we cannot possibly understand with our finite minds.

According to the Orthodox teaching, which I should add is two thousand years old, God is always and forever unknowable and incomprehensible to creatures. Even in the eternal life of the Kingdom of God -- heaven , as we say -- men will never know the essence of God, that is, what God really is in Himself.

But we believe and confess that God the "ineffable, inconceivable, incomprehensible, ever-existing God," to use the words of the Orthodox liturgy, has made Himself known to creatures. He has revealed Himself in the creation of man and the world, in the Old Testament Law and the Prophets, and fully and perfectly in Christ through the Holy Spirit in the New Testament Church.

In every way that God reveals Himself, He does so through His Son (or Word-Logos) and through the Holy Spirit. It is the same Son and Spirit through whom God made the world, through whom God revealed Himself in the Old Testament, through whom God enlightens and makes alive every man in the world ... that come to us personally in the New Testament Church. The Son comes as a man in the person of Jesus Christ. The Spirit comes to those who believe in Christ in order to make them sons of God in Him.

Thus we have always and everywhere God the Father, the Son of God who comes as Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. In the Orthodox Church we confess that these three are not three competitive gods, divided, and separated from each other. On the contrary we believe that the Father, who is the Source of all that exists, always has His Son and His Spirit who are not creatures, Who were not made like everything and everyone else, but Who exist eternally with Him; from, in and by His very own divine being.

Thus what God the Father is, the Son and the Holy Spirit also are, namely: eternal, perfect, good, wise, holy, timeless, spaceless ... divine and worthy of the title GOD.

We believe as well that each of the three divine persons is divine in his own unique way, yet always living and acting in the perfectly absolute unity of the divine truth and love. Thus the Three are one not only because what they are is one and the same, but because their divine union allows of no separation or duality or division whatsoever.

I hasten to point out here that the Orthodox teaching about the Holy Trinity is not an "abstract dogma" thought up by some clever minds. It is the expression on the level of words -- which are always and of necessity inadequate to reality -- of the loving experience of God in the Church. The doctrine of the Trinity is the product of man's living communion with the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit.

Jamesleushino Monday, February 9, 2009 6:56:01 PM

And looking at John 1:1 from ALL bibles except for the New World translation which was obviously skewed to make the verse conform to certain teachings, let me add the following:

"Was the Word" (Gr. Logos)... indicates existence without reference to a starting point. Therefore, "In the beginning was the Word" emphasizes (1) the Word's eternal existence in the Father without beginning, and (2) His oneness with Him in essence. Logos signifies wisdom and reason as well as word: the Creator. With the incarnation, the Logos fully participates in human nature.

"The Word was with God": WITH in the Greek shows that the Word, the Son, is (1) a distinct Person from the Father, and (2) in communion with the Father.

"The Word was God": The Old Testament prophets saw the Word of God as the presence of the Lord. This phrase reveals He is not only from the Father, He is coequal and coeternal with the Father: one in divinity with Him. "I and My Father are one." (10:30)

Some (not saying who, Molly wink) mistranslate this phrase"The Word was a god" to propagate their heretical teaching that the Son is a created being, not fully divine. Such a translation is unwarranted and false.

Jamesleushino Monday, February 9, 2009 7:08:57 PM

btw... (I'm late... gotta run)... ALL branches of Christianity teach the trinitarian nature of God.

Protestant: http://www.bible-knowledge.com/Trinity-God-Jesus-Holy-Spirit.html

Catholic:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=158588

Orthodox: I gave this to you earlier.

In fact, if you Google this teaching you will find hundreds (if not thousands) of references. Why? Because it IS and has always been, the foundational truth of Christianity.

Gotta run.

Jamesleushino Tuesday, February 10, 2009 5:57:45 AM

btw... you mentioned Origen as a Church Father who supported a non-trinitarian view of God. Whereas most Christians today (Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox) consider many of Origen's teachings to be heretical, he actually believed in the Holy Trinity.

Here are two examples:

"For it is the TRINITY ALONE which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even ETERNAL may be understood. It is all OTHER things [i.e. not the SON, not the HOLY SPIRIT], indeed, which are OUTSIDE the TRINITY, which are to be measured by times and ages."
(The Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1, Jurgens, volume 1, p. 199)

And...

"The specific points which are clearly handed down through the apostolic preaching are these: First, that there is ONE GOD who created and arranged all things, and who, when NOTHING existed, CALLED ALL THINGS INTO EXISTENCE....and that in the final period this God, just as He had promised beforehand through the Prophets, sent the Lord Jesus Christ....

"Secondly, that Jesus Christ Himself, who came, was born of the Father BEFORE all creatures and after He had ministered to the Father IN THE CREATION OF ALL THINGS -- for through Him WERE ALL THINGS MADE [i.e. John 1:3] -- in the final period he emptied Himself and was made man. Although HE WAS GOD, He took flesh; and having been made man, HE REMAINED WHAT HE WAS, GOD. He took a body like our body, differing only in this, that it was born of a Virgin AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

"Moreover, this Jesus Christ was truly born and truly suffered; and He endured this ordinary death, not in mere appearance, but did truly die; for He truly rose again from the dead, and after His resurrection He conversed with His disciples, and was taken up. Third, they handed it down that THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ASSOCIATED IN HONOR AND DIGNITY WITH THE FATHER AND THE SON.

"...And it is most clearly taught in the Churches that this Spirit inspired each one of the holy men, whether Prophets or Apostles; and that there was not one Spirit in the men of old, and another in those who were inspired after the coming of Christ."

(De Principiis or The Fundamental Doctrines 1:preface:4, from Jurgens, volume 1, p. 191)

"John says in the Gospel, 'No one has at any time seen God' [John 1:18], clearly declaring to all who are able to understand, that there is no NATURE to which God is visible: not as if He were indeed visible by NATURE....He is by NATURE impossible to be seen. And if you should ask of me what I think even of the Only-begotten Himself, whether I could say that the NATURE of God, which is naturally invisible, is not visible even to Him....for we will give you a logical answer.

"For it is just as unsuitable to say that the SON is able to see the FATHER, as it is unbecoming to suppose that the HOLY SPIRIT is able to see the SON. It is one thing to see, another to know. To see and to be seen belongs to bodies. To know and to be known belongs to an intellectual being. That, therefore, which is proper to bodies is not to be attributed to either the FATHER or to the SON; BUT THAT WHICH PERTAINS TO DEITY IS COMMON TO THE FATHER AND THE SON."

(The Fundamental Doctrines 1:1:8, Jurgens, volume 1, p. 193)

and that's just Origen.

I could go on... from Ignatius (110 aD) to Novatian (235 AD) to Tertullian (155-250 AD) to Irenaeus of Lyons (140 - 202 AD) and on and on... the Fathers supporting the Trinity are too numerous for me to list here. If you wish, check out the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers and what they had to say about the Holy Trinity.

Molly MedalazagreatMolly Tuesday, February 10, 2009 5:42:51 PM

smile kiindly check all the references.

"THE WORD WAS GOD"
John 1:1 states: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (King James Version) Later in the same chapter, the apostle John clearly shows that "the Word" is Jesus. (John 1:14) Since the Word is called God, however, some conclude that the Son and the Father must be part of the same God.

Bear in mind that this part of the Bible was originally written in Greek. Later, translators rendered the Greek text into other languages. A number of Bible translators, though, did not use the phrase "the Word was God." Why not? Based on their knowledge of Biblical Greek, those translators concluded that the phrase "the Word was God" should be translated differently. How? Here are a few examples: "The Logos [Word] was divine." (A New Translation of the Bible) "The Word was a god." (The New Testament in an Improved Version) "The Word was with God and shared his nature." (The Translator's New Testament) According to these translations, the Word is not God himself.

"The Word Was God"

AT JOHN 1:1 the King James Version reads: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Trinitarians claim that this means that "the Word" (Greek, ho lo'gos) who came to earth as Jesus Christ was Almighty God himself.

Note, however, that here again the context lays the groundwork for accurate understanding. Even the King James Version says, "The Word was with God." (Italics ours.) Someone who is "with" another person cannot be the same as that other person. In agreement with this, the Journal of Biblical Literature, edited by Jesuit Joseph A. Fitzmyer, notes that if the latter part of John 1:1 were interpreted to mean "the" God, this "would then contradict the preceding clause," which says that the Word was with God.

Notice, too, how other translations render this part of the verse:

1808: "and the word was a god." The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome's New Translation: With a Corrected Text.

1864: "and a god was the word." The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.

1928: "and the Word was a divine being." La Bible du Centenaire, L'Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.

1935: "and the Word was divine." The Bible-An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.

1946: "and of a divine kind was the Word." Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.

1950: "and the Word was a god." New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.

1958: "and the Word was a God." The New Testament, by James L. Tomanek.

1975: "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word." Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.

1978: "and godlike kind was the Logos." Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider.

At John 1:1 there are two occurrences of the Greek noun the·os' (god). The first occurrence refers to Almighty God, with whom the Word was ("and the Word [lo'gos] was with God [a form of the·os']"). This first the·os' is preceded by the word ton (the), a form of the Greek definite article that points to a distinct identity, in this case Almighty God ("and the Word was with [the] God").

On the other hand, there is no article before the second the·os' at John 1:1. So a literal translation would read, "and god was the Word." Yet we have seen that many translations render this second the·os' (a predicate noun) as "divine," "godlike," or "a god." On what authority do they do this?

The Koine Greek language had a definite article ("the"), but it did not have an indefinite article ("a" or "an"). So when a predicate noun is not preceded by the definite article, it may be indefinite, depending on the context.

The Journal of Biblical Literature says that expressions "with an anarthrous [no article] predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning." As the Journal notes, this indicates that the lo'gos can be likened to a god. It also says of John 1:1: "The qualitative force of the predicate is so prominent that the noun [the·os'] cannot be regarded as definite."

So John 1:1 highlights the quality of the Word, that he was "divine," "godlike," "a god," but not Almighty God. This harmonizes with the rest of the Bible, which shows that Jesus, here called "the Word" in his role as God's Spokesman, was an obedient subordinate sent to earth by his Superior, Almighty God.

There are many other Bible verses in which almost all translators in other languages consistently insert the article "a" when translating Greek sentences with the same structure. For example, at Mark 6:49, when the disciples saw Jesus walking on water, the King James Version says: "They supposed it had been a spirit." In the Koine Greek, there is no "a" before "spirit." But almost all translations in other languages add an "a" in order to make the rendering fit the context. In the same way, since John 1:1 shows that the Word was with God, he could not be God but was "a god," or "divine."

Joseph Henry Thayer, a theologian and scholar who worked on the American Standard Version, stated simply: "The Logos was divine, not the divine Being himself." And Jesuit John L. McKenzie wrote in his Dictionary of the Bible: "Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated . . . 'the word was a divine being.'"

Violating a Rule?

SOME claim, however, that such renderings violate a rule of Koine Greek grammar published by Greek scholar E. C. Colwell back in 1933. He asserted that in Greek a predicate noun "has the [definite] article when it follows the verb; it does not have the [definite] article when it precedes the verb." By this he meant that a predicate noun preceding the verb should be understood as though it did have the definite article ("the") in front of it. At John 1:1 the second noun (the·os'), the predicate, precedes the verb-"and [the·os'] was the Word." So, Colwell claimed, John 1:1 should read "and [the] God was the Word."

But consider just two examples found at John 8:44. There Jesus says of the Devil: "That one was a manslayer" and "he is a liar." Just as at John 1:1, the predicate nouns ("manslayer" and "liar") precede the verbs ("was" and "is") in the Greek. There is no indefinite article in front of either noun because there was no indefinite article in Koine Greek. But most translations insert the word "a" because Greek grammar and the context require it.-See also Mark 11:32; John 4:19; 6:70; 9:17; 10:1; 12:6.

Colwell had to acknowledge this regarding the predicate noun, for he said: "It is indefinite ["a" or "an"] in this position only when the context demands it." So even he admits that when the context requires it, translators may insert an indefinite article in front of the noun in this type of sentence structure.

Does the context require an indefinite article at John 1:1? Yes, for the testimony of the entire Bible is that Jesus is not Almighty God. Thus, not Colwell's questionable rule of grammar, but context should guide the translator in such cases. And it is apparent from the many translations that insert the indefinite article "a" at John 1:1 and in other places that many scholars disagree with such an artificial rule, and so does God's Word.

No Conflict

DOES saying that Jesus Christ is "a god" conflict with the Bible's teaching that there is only one God? No, for at times the Bible employs that term to refer to mighty creatures. Psalm 8:5 reads: "You also proceeded to make him [man] a little less than godlike ones [Hebrew, 'elo·him']," that is, angels. In Jesus' defense against the charge of the Jews, that he claimed to be God, he noted that "the Law uses the word gods of those to whom the word of God was addressed," that is, human judges. (John 10:34, 35, JB; Psalm 82:1-6) Even Satan is called "the god of this system of things" at 2 Corinthians 4:4.

Jesus has a position far higher than angels, imperfect men, or Satan. Since these are referred to as "gods," mighty ones, surely Jesus can be and is "a god." Because of his unique position in relation to Jehovah, Jesus is a "Mighty God."-John 1:1; Isaiah 9:6.

But does not "Mighty God" with its capital letters indicate that Jesus is in some way equal to Jehovah God? Not at all. Isaiah merely prophesied this to be one of four names that Jesus would be called, and in the English language such names are capitalized. Still, even though Jesus was called "Mighty," there can be only one who is "Almighty." To call Jehovah God "Almighty" would have little significance unless there existed others who were also called gods but who occupied a lesser or inferior position.

The Bulletin of the John Rylands Library in England notes that according to Catholic theologian Karl Rahner, while the·os' is used in scriptures such as John 1:1 in reference to Christ, "in none of these instances is 'theos' used in such a manner as to identify Jesus with him who elsewhere in the New Testament figures as 'ho Theos,' that is, the Supreme God." And the Bulletin adds: "If the New Testament writers believed it vital that the faithful should confess Jesus as 'God', is the almost complete absence of just this form of confession in the New Testament explicable?"

But what about the apostle Thomas' saying, "My Lord and my God!" to Jesus at John 20:28? To Thomas, Jesus was like "a god," especially in the miraculous circumstances that prompted his exclamation. Some scholars suggest that Thomas may simply have made an emotional exclamation of astonishment, spoken to Jesus but directed to God. In either case, Thomas did not think that Jesus was Almighty God, for he and all the other apostles knew that Jesus never claimed to be God but taught that Jehovah alone is "the only true God."-John 17:3.

Again, the context helps us to understand this. A few days earlier the resurrected Jesus had told Mary Magdalene to tell the disciples: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) Even though Jesus was already resurrected as a mighty spirit, Jehovah was still his God. And Jesus continued to refer to Him as such even in the last book of the Bible, after he was glorified.-Revelation 1:5, 6; 3:2, 12.

Just three verses after Thomas' exclamation, at John 20:31, the Bible further clarifies the matter by stating: "These have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God," not that he was Almighty God. And it meant "Son" in a literal way, as with a natural father and son, not as some mysterious part of a Trinity Godhead.

Must Harmonize With the Bible

IT IS claimed that several other scriptures support the Trinity. But these are similar to those discussed above in that, when carefully examined, they offer no actual support. Such texts only illustrate that when considering any claimed support for the Trinity, one must ask: Does the interpretation harmonize with the consistent teaching of the entire Bible-that Jehovah God alone is Supreme? If not, then the interpretation must be in error.

We also need to keep in mind that not even so much as one "proof text" says that God, Jesus, and the holy spirit are one in some mysterious Godhead. Not one scripture anywhere in the Bible says that all three are the same in substance, power, and eternity. The Bible is consistent in revealing Almighty God, Jehovah, as alone Supreme, Jesus as his created Son, and the holy spirit as God's active force. Instead, because of his high position among Jehovah's creatures, the Word is referred to as "a god." Here the term "god" means "mighty one."

GET MORE FACTS

Most people do not know Biblical Greek. So how can you know what the apostle John really meant? Think of this example: A schoolteacher explains a subject to his students. Afterward, the students differ on how to understand the explanation. How can the students resolve the matter? They could ask the teacher for more information. No doubt, learning additional facts would help them to understand the subject better. Similarly, to grasp the meaning of John 1:1, you can look in the Gospel of John for more information on Jesus' position. Learning additional facts on this subject will help you to draw the right conclusion.

For instance, consider what John further writes in chapter 1, verse 18: "No man has seen [Almighty] God at any time." However, humans have seen Jesus, the Son, for John says: "The Word [Jesus] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory." (John 1:14, KJ) How, then, could the Son be part of Almighty God? John also states that the Word was "with God." But how can an individual be with someone and at the same time be that person? Moreover, as recorded at John 17:3, Jesus makes a clear distinction between himself and his heavenly Father. He calls his Father "the only true God." And toward the end of his Gospel, John sums up matters by saying: "These have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God." (John 20:31) Notice that Jesus is called, not God, but the Son of God. This additional information provided in the Gospel of John shows how John 1:1 should be understood. Jesus, the Word, is "a god" in the sense that he has a high position but is not the same as Almighty God.

CONFIRM THE FACTS

Think again about the example of the schoolteacher and the students. Imagine that some still have doubts, even after listening to the teacher's additional explanation. What could they do? They could turn to another teacher for further information on the same subject. If the second teacher confirms the explanation of the first one, the doubts of most students may be put to rest. Similarly, if you are not sure what the Bible writer John was really saying about the relationship between Jesus and Almighty God, you could turn to another Bible writer for further information. Consider what was written by Matthew, for example. Regarding the end of this system of things, he quotes Jesus as saying: "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matthew 24:36) How do these words confirm that Jesus is not Almighty God?

Jesus says that the Father knows more than the Son does. If Jesus were part of Almighty God, however, he would know the same facts as his Father. So, then, the Son and the Father cannot be equal. Yet, some will say: 'Jesus had two natures. Here he speaks as a man.' But even if that were so, what about the holy spirit? If it is part of the same God as the Father, why does Jesus not say that it knows what the Father knows? idea love

source :Should You Believe in the Trinity ?
pp.26-9


Jamesleushino Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:27:17 PM

Nope. Can't go there, Molly. I'm afraid we'll have to disagree yet again. The most reliable and ancient translations all translate John 1:1 the way I indicated. The so-called New Translation is simply a false rendering in order to "make the verse" agree with preconceived notions.

Should one believe in the Holy Trinity? Absolutely. The vast majority of Church Fathers believed in it. The ancient creeds teach it. The bulk of Christianity down through two millennium have taught it. It's only a very small, schismatic group that teach otherwise. The first to adopt such an heretical view of our Lord and Savior was Arius and for his heresy he was removed from the Church.

Anyway, this is yet another area in which we will disagree. I suspect it is not the last.

All the best.

Jamesleushino Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:55:23 PM

You might like to check out the following on the scriptural references to the Holy Trinity:

http://www.dianedew.com/godhead.htm

Here are a few texts from the bible referring to the all-holy Trinity:

Genesis 1:26

"Let US make man in OUR image": Three plural pronouns, (We, Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages: Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8. The unanimous opinion of the apostolic Fathers was that the Father was talking to Jesus.

Genesis 19:24

"Then Yahweh [on earth in human form] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh [in spirit form in heaven] out of heaven. Genesis 19:24. In this text Abraham is visited by three individuals, one being Yahweh and the other two angels. Here we have God on the earth (Jesus) and God in heaven (father) sending down fire from heaven. This incident when Abraham met with Yahweh God, is what Jesus referred to when he said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." (John 8:56) The unanimous opinion of the apostolic Fathers was that Jesus visited Abraham in Genesis 18 and 19.

Isaiah 6

Isaiah saw the glory of Yahweh, but John says that Isaiah really saw the glory of Christ. This proves Jesus is Yahweh. Combine this with the fact the Yahweh said, "Who will go for US" is a plural pronoun indicating more than one person in the Godhead.

Isaiah 40-55

Jesus echoes the "I AM" statements in Isaiah chapters 40-55. This spectacular link explores over 20 different passages in Isaiah and John.

Isaiah 45:23-24

I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. "They will say of Me, 'Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him shall be put to shame.

Micah 5:2

But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.

New Testament Trinity Proof Texts

Mark 2:5-12

Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

John 5:18

For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 8:58

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.

John 10:33

"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. … Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?"

John 12:41 + Isaiah 6

A simple reading of the context of John 12 makes it clear that John is saying that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus Christ himself in Isaiah 6. This proves Jesus is Yahweh.

John 19:7

The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God."

Romans 14:11

For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God."

2 Corinthians 13:14

Philippians 2:1-2

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

Philippians 2:9-11

"Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Revelation 22:3

"And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servants shall [latreuo] serve Him."

Jesus worshipped in the highest sense of "latreuo"

Jamesleushino Tuesday, February 10, 2009 7:16:51 PM

btw, Molly... when we were discussing the celebration of Christmas... are you aware that the Watchtower had reversed itself on this (and on literally dozens of other teachings)?

Here is what it said:

1904 "Even though Christmas is not the real anniversary of our Lord's birth, but more properly the annunciation day or the date of his human begetting (Luke 1:28), nevertheless, since the celebration of our Lord's birth is not a matter of divine appointment or injunction, but merely a tribute of respect to him, it is not necessary for us to quibble particularly about the date. We may as well join with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event on the day which the majority celebrate - "Christmas day."" (Watchtower, Dec. 1, 1904, p364)

And...as for Jesus Christ... here is yet another reversal of the Watchtower's teachings:

1879 "His position is contrasted with men and angels, as he is Lord of both, having 'all power in heaven and earth'. Hence it is said, 'Let all of the angels of God worship him' [that must included Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because he has 'by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.'" (C.T. Russell, Watchtower Nov. 1879, bracketed comment in the original)

1880 "He was the object of unreproved worship even when a babe, by the wise men who came to see the new-born king… He never reproved any for acts of worship offered to Himself… Had Christ not been more than man the same reason would have prevented Him from receiving worship." (Watchtower Reprints, 1, Oct., 1880, p. 144).

1898 "Question… Was he really worshipped, or is the translation faulty? Answer. Yes, we believe our Lord while on earth was really worshipped, and properly so… It was proper for our Lord to receive worship…" (Watchtower Reprints, 111, July 15, 1898, p. 2337).

1915 "As the special messenger of the Covenant, whom the Father had sanctified and sent into the world to redeem the world, and whom the Father honored in every manner, testifying, 'This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased' - it was eminently proper that all who beheld his glory, as the glory of an Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, should reverence him, hear him, obey him, and worship him - do him homage - as the representative of the Father." (At-One-Ment Between God And Man, 1899; 1915 ed.; p. 134)

1945 "Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship him must also bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that organization, namely Christ Jesus, his co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy." (Watchtower, Oct 15, 1945)

1945 "The purposes of this Society are: … public Christian worship of Almighty God and Jesus Christ; to arrange for and hold local and world-wide assemblies for such worship…" (Charter of the Watchtower Society of Pennsylvania, Article II, Feb 27, 1945 [the 1969 Yearbook quotes Article II of the Charter, "and for public Christian worship of Almighty God...." leaving off the original requirement to worship Jesus])

1970 "But when He again brings his First-born into the inhabited earth, he says: 'And let all God's angels worship him' Hebrews 1:6." (New World Translation, 1950, 1961, 1970 editions, [The NWT revised 1971 edition was changed to read, "do obeisance to" rather than "worship"])

----

Molly MedalazagreatMolly Friday, February 13, 2009 2:21:38 PM



"Let US make man in OUR image": Three plural pronouns, (We, Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages: Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8. The unanimous opinion of the apostolic Fathers was that the Father was talking to Jesus."

Yes James, it was Jesus who's the Father was talking to.
Jehovah’s first creation was his “only-begotten Son” (Joh 3:16), “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Re 3:14) This one, “the firstborn of all creation,” was used by Jehovah in creating all other things, those in the heavens and those upon the earth, “the things visible and the things invisible.” (Col 1:15-17) John’s inspired testimony concerning this Son, the Word, is that “all things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence,” and the apostle identifies the Word as Jesus Christ, who had become flesh. (Joh 1:1-4, 10, 14, 17) As wisdom personified, this One is represented as saying, “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way,” and he tells of his association with God the Creator as Jehovah’s “master worker.” (Pr 8:12, 22-31) In view of the close association of Jehovah and his only-begotten Son in creative activity and because that Son is “the image of the invisible God” (Col 1:15; 2Co 4:4), it was evidently to His only-begotten Son and master worker that Jehovah spoke in saying, “Let us make man in our image.”—Ge 1:26. So it clearly shows that God alone is the Almighty , the Creator , separate and distinct from anyone else, and that Jesus , even in his prehuman existence, is also separate and distinct, a created being, subordinate to God.
love idea


"Revelation 22:3

"And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servants shall [latreuo] serve Him."



As regards Jesus Christ, he was prophetically spoken of as a sheep brought to the slaughtering and as a ewe that remains mute before her shearers. (Isa 53:7; Ac 8:32, 35; compare 1Pe 2:23.) Because of Jesus’ sacrificial role, John the Baptizer identified Jesus as “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world,” and in the book of Revelation the Son of God is repeatedly called “the Lamb.”—Joh 1:29; Re 5:6; 6:16; 7:14, 17; 14:1; 17:14; 19:7.

idea idea love

Molly MedalazagreatMolly Friday, February 13, 2009 3:34:34 PM

James regarding on the issue that you brought up about J.Witnesses that celebrates Christmas.
(When the World Had Its Holidays)

When Jehovah’s Witnesses cast aside religious teachings that had pagan roots, they also quit sharing in many customs that were similarly tainted. But for a time, certain holidays were not given the careful scrutiny that they needed. One of these was Christmas.

This holiday was celebrated yearly even by members of the Watch Tower Society’s headquarters staff at the Bethel Home in Brooklyn, New York. For many years they had been aware that December 25 was not the correct date, but they reasoned that the date had long been popularly associated with the birth of the Savior and that doing good for others was proper on any day. However, after further investigation of the subject, the members of the Society’s headquarters staff, as well as the staffs at the Society’s branch offices in England and in Switzerland, decided to stop sharing in Christmas festivities, so no Christmas celebration was held there after 1926.

R. H. Barber, a member of the headquarters staff who made a thorough investigation of the origin of Christmas customs and the fruitage that these were yielding, presented the results in a radio broadcast. That information was also published in The Golden Age of December 12, 1928. It was a thorough exposé of the God-dishonoring roots of Christmas. Since then, the pagan roots of Christmas customs have become general public knowledge, but few people make changes in their way of life as a result. On the other hand, Jehovah’s Witnesses were willing to make needed changes in order to be more acceptable as servants of Jehovah.

When shown that celebrating the birth of Jesus had actually become of greater interest to people than the ransom provided by his death; that the revelry of the holiday and the spirit in which many gifts were given did not honor God; that the magi whose gift-giving was being imitated were actually demon-inspired astrologers; that parents set an example for their children in lying by what they told them about Santa Claus; that “St. Nicholas” (Santa Claus) was admittedly another name for the Devil himself; and that such festivals were, as acknowledged by Cardinal Newman in his Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, “the very instruments and appendages of demon-worship” the church had adopted—when made aware of these things, Jehovah’s Witnesses promptly and permanently stopped having any part in Christmas celebrations.idea


(Letting the Light Shine)

Jesus instructed his disciples to share with others the light of divine truth that they had received from him. “You are the light of the world,” he said. “Let your light shine before men.” (Matt. 5:14-16; Acts 13:47) Charles Taze Russell and his associates recognized that they had an obligation to do that.

Did they believe that they had all the answers, the full light of truth? To that question Brother Russell pointedly answered: “Certainly not; nor will we have until the ‘perfect day.’” (Prov. 4:18, KJ) Frequently they referred to their Scriptural beliefs as “present truth”—not with any idea that truth itself changes but rather with the thought that their understanding of it was progressive.

These earnest students of the Bible did not shy away from the idea that there is such a thing as truth in matters of religion. They recognized Jehovah as “the God of truth” and the Bible as his Word of truth. (Ps. 31:5; Josh. 21:45; John 17:17) They realized that there was still much that they did not know, but they did not hold back from stating with conviction what they had learned from the Bible. And when traditional religious doctrines and practices contradicted what they found to be clearly stated in God’s inspired Word, then, in imitation of Jesus Christ, they exposed the falsehood, even though this brought ridicule and hatred upon them from the clergy.—Matt. 15:3-9.

Jamesleushino Saturday, February 14, 2009 10:50:30 PM

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you on the Father's first creation was Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is not a creature, plain and simple. He is the Only-Begotten-Son of the Father. There's a world of difference between begotten and created and nowhere nor at anytime in ancient Christianity has the Son ever been considered a created being. In fact, it was Arius, an heretical bishop of the Church who declared such and was promptly removed from the Church resulting in the creation of the Nicene Creed to refute any and all future heretical notions.

Jamesleushino Sunday, February 15, 2009 5:01:53 PM

"But for a time, certain holidays were not given the careful scrutiny that they needed. One of these was Christmas."

I'm afraid I have a problem with that, Molly. If something is wrong, it is wrong, plain and simple. It sounds as though the Watchtower Society were making things up as they went along. The Church has never waffled on truth and falsity over two millennium (not just ten or twenty years). Truth is truth and falsehood is falsehood. We do not compromise for a time before changing the rules of the game, as it were.

Anyway, I won't belabor that point since it is clear that you accept the WT's reasons. Again, that is your privilege and you're free to believe what you choose to believe. It seems to me that you are shortchanging yourself on many of the small joys in this life but that's also your prerogative.

James

btw... if the WT Society was wrong about the celebration of Christmas until they decided to change that ruling in 1926, what else have they been wrong about? Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Molly MedalazagreatMolly Monday, February 16, 2009 1:28:38 PM

"I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you on the Father's first creation was Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is not a creature, plain and simple. He is the Only-Begotten-Son of the Father."


So James if that's the case, how can you explain the Word at Col.1:15-17; John 3:16 and Rev.3:14? confused

Jamesleushino Monday, February 16, 2009 3:19:42 PM

Col. 1:15-17 simply means that Jesus Christ is the Head of creation and the Head of the "new" creation. In fact, Molly, these verses constitute an ancient Christological hymn which was part of the early baptismal liturgy. In verse 15 no clear distinction is made between Christ as God and Christ as Man, but the point of the verse is obvious. As God, Christ is eternally and consubstantially (of one essence) the image (Greek: icon) of the Father. As Man, Christ is the image in which man was made and toward which man is moving. In both natures He represents and manifests the Father. As God, Christ is the firstborn over all creation in that the Father created everything through Him, as the Only Begotten Son of God. As Man, Christ is the firstborn over all creation in that He has authority over creation. In either case, creation is fully subject to Him. Contrary to the Colossian heresy, in which He was considered one of the created mediators, Christ is the only Mediator and Lord of all.

Verse 16: Thrones, dominions, principalities and powers are ranks of angels. Christ is not only the source (through Him) of creation - of all things, on earth and in heaven - but also its goal.

~~ from the notes contained in the Orthodox Study Bible

John 3:16 I see nothing here to suggest that Jesus Christ is a created being. He is the Only Begotten Son.

Revelations 3:14 Amen is a divine title applied here to Christ, who is the final ratification and accomplishment of the promise of God (2Col. 1:19,20). This title affirms His sureness and steadfastness, amplified by the title Faithful and True Witness. The word Beginning (Gr. arche) has been seized upon by ancient Arians and modern Jehovah's Witnesses who attempt to prove Christ is created, thus denying His eternal existence. However, the term is more accurately translated as "source" or "origin," signifying He is the Master of all. Christ the Beginning is the principle, the source of God's creation (see John 1:1-3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1: 16-17), the creative Word and Wisdom of God.

~~ same source as above

Molly MedalazagreatMolly Wednesday, March 4, 2009 2:41:03 PM

"The vast majority of Church Fathers believed in it. the Ancient creed teach it. The bulk of Christianity down through two millennium have taught it. It's only a very small schismatic group that teach otherwise."


I do believe you James! The Bible clearly say at Matthew 7:13,14 (KJ Version) : "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it; Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." with that words , what could you expect? confused

Molly MedalazagreatMolly Wednesday, March 4, 2009 3:01:28 PM

Col. 1:15, 16: “He [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth.” In what sense is Jesus Christ “the first-born of all creation”?

1) Trinitarians say that “first-born” here means prime, most excellent, most distinguished; thus Christ would be understood to be, not part of creation, but the most distinguished in relation to those who were created. If that is so, and if the Trinity doctrine is true, why are the Father and the holy spirit not also said to be the firstborn of all creation? But the Bible applies this expression only to the Son. According to the customary meaning of “firstborn,” it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovah’s family of sons.

2) Before Colossians 1:15, the expression “the firstborn of” occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies—the firstborn is part of the group. “The firstborn of Israel” is one of the sons of Israel; “the firstborn of Pharaoh” is one of Pharaoh’s family; “the firstborn of beast” are themselves animals. What, then, causes some to ascribe a different meaning to it at Colossians 1:15? Is it Bible usage or is it a belief to which they already hold and for which they seek proof?

3) Does Colossians 1:16, 17 exclude Jesus from having been created, when it says “in him all things were created . . . all things were created through him and for him”? The Greek word here rendered “all things” is pan′ta, an inflected form of pas. At Luke 13:2, Revised Standard Version renders this “all . . . other”; Jerusalem Bible reads “any other”; New English Bible says “anyone else.” (See also Luke 21:29 and Philippians 2:21) In harmony with everything else that the Bible says regarding the Son, New World assigns the same meaning to pan′ta at Colossians 1:16, 17 so that it reads, in part, “by means of him all other things were created . . . All other things have been created through him and for him.” Thus he is shown to be a created being, part of the creation produced by God.

We are not here to argue or debate our faith James. We are here to share the truth about Almighty God, Jehovah, and his Only-Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

For more information, visit www.watchtower.org

love

Jamesleushino Thursday, March 5, 2009 1:37:52 AM

It's been ... well... interesting, Molly. But I must disengage now. It's Great Lent and I need to devote my time to other pursuits. Good-bye.

Write a comment

New comments have been disabled for this post.