A Blog From Behind the Trenches

Connection speed alone is argument strong enough

You're screwed because you're not using WebKit so Apple will never approve it. Rightly so too.

Originally posted by bobthebob:

You're screwed because you're not using WebKit so Apple will never approve it.

Says who? They approved Spotify even though it replaces iPhone functionality.

Rightly so too.

Why exactly?

I agree with Serola, the fact that Opera is faster is a big advantage. I've heard many people complaining about the speed of the iPhone so if there is an alternative that provides competition then great.

It'll be interesting to see whether Opera does get approved into the App Store. If not then I'm not sure how it's any different to the anti-competitive lawsuit that was taken out against Microsoft?

operamini would compete with safari in iphone and that's why apple won't approve it.

Originally posted by davewoods100:

If not then I'm not sure how it's any different to the anti-competitive lawsuit that was taken out against Microsoft?

There was no lawsuit. No one sued Microsoft. They just asked the authorities to look into anti-competitive practices. And the iPhone is not a monopoly.

Originally posted by jacobian64:

operamini would compete with safari in iphone and that's why apple won't approve it.

This is obviously nonsense. They approved Spotify! Also Opera Mini isn't technically a browser since it's just a thin client while servers do the actual page handling.

Originally posted by Purdi:

And the iPhone is not a monopoly.

Good point, the fact that there are alternatives to the iPhone probably means that they're entitled to reject competing software if they want. Fingers crossed that it does get approval though as it'll certainly be better for their customers that do want to use Opera Mini.

"We are ready. Are you?"

The question is, if Apple is ready for this

Actually, getting Opera Mini into the App Store could make iPhone more attractive choice for many people who does not have 3G connection.

oh, I've so missed Opera Mini! Can't wait to have it on my mobile!

Originally posted by Nico:

The question is, if Apple is ready for this

So they didn't approve it?

Lawrence Curtis writes: I'm sorry but this opera groupie stuff has to stop, the GREAT thing about the iPhone platform is that it has one modern browser than behaves the same way and is a joy to develop for. It's easy to test and doesn't give a jaded view of what the internet is! Putting opera on the iPhone just means everybody has to do more work to support a few people that feel rebellious because of there choice of browser! I've used khtml now for 12 years, first on linux and then again when changing to osx! I'm sorry but on windows, fair game, put your browser on it, replace a bad browser with a slightly better one, but on an iPhone that is just stupid! Why concentrate your efforts on a platform with a good browser that uses standards. I think you're all missing the point here! You guys do more work to get this on the iPhone, we as developers do more work to support this, nobody wins from this at all?!

Originally posted by anonymous:

Putting opera on the iPhone just means everybody has to do more work to support a few people that feel rebellious because of there choice of browser!

Seriously good comedy! And this guy is saying that using KHTML. Dude, get a grip.

Lawrence Curtis writes: @malsumis webkit is what once was KHTML, it's like telling people you grew up on mozilla and neglecting that it was once called netscape I get you're mad, i came to your house (my.opera) and said i don't like the fact opera even exists! Really though deep down, you know it's a bad idea, why make every web developer hate opera even more than they do already!!?? I don't know a single web dev that builds for opera, they may check it, if it doesn't work, they don't care!

Originally posted by anonymous:

Why concentrate your efforts on a platform with a good browser that uses standards

Opera follows standards too, so what's the problem? If your pages really follow standards, they will definitely have correct look and feel in Opera.

Cqoicebordel writes: @Lawrence Curtis You're saying that you're develloping for the iPhone, and not for the already most used mobile web browser ?

Lawrence Curtis writes: @KrioLyth thank you, i completely agree! however if there is a problem in opera, which is often the case i don't think anybody should waste time correcting it! My problem is that i just don't get its purpose in life, make it so good on windows mobile that windows users can't live without it, my point is that we should be working towards a better web, not diluting it! Chrome, safari, konqueror they are all the same thing, opera, firefox, netscape mozilla, together we just share out the 25% of users that can't handle IE The power struggle is silly, go after the windows users, get them to use your browser, everybody else is just fine!

Lawrence Curtis writes: @Cqoicebordel no i'm saying that i don't need to develop for the iPhone, as it works how it should, how it does in safari. Your just making life harder by taking away from that user base.

Originally posted by anonymous:

You guys do more work to get this on the iPhone, we as developers do more work to support this, nobody wins from this at all?!

Why would more work be needed? Whether i'm using mini from an iphone a HTC phone or a Nokia surely should not matter to the website i'm visiting*. If you just follow the standards all should be well.

*assuming similar specifications

Originally posted by anonymous:

The power struggle is silly, go after the windows users, get them to use your browser, everybody else is just fine!

Surely that's up to the user to decide, freedom of choice and all that.
(granted, Apple has never been a company that encourages freedom of choice)

Originally posted by anonymous:

why make every web developer hate opera even more than they do already!!??

+1 How dare they be standard compliant and have a quality engine?

Lawrence Curtis writes: @Zotlan because opera mini in my experience makes most websites i browse look deformed, i don't want the same thing on my iPhone, low res compressed images and server side mashed up code, i want the experience as it was intended to be

Originally posted by anonymous:

@Zotlan because opera mini in my experience makes most websites i browse look deformed, i don't want the same thing on my iPhone, low res compressed images and server side mashed up code, i want the experience as it was intended to be

Quote

They get compressed because users want to save bandwidth. It does not grow on trees you know?

Lawrence Curtis writes: My ability to care has ended, i've spent far to long even thinking about opera, probably more time than anybody in the country has spent testing or caring about it. Opera mini or dekstop IMO is just pointless! You can reply all you like but i wont be reading them from now on!!

Originally posted by anonymous:

My ability to care has ended, i've spent far to long even thinking about opera, probably more time than anybody in the country has spent testing or caring about it.

I see three possibilities.
1) You're a truly, truly dedicated designer and possibly insane.
2) You have a talent for exaggeration
3) You live in Vatican City.

@ Lawrence Curtis - You don't represent "everyone" There are also those who don't mind of using "low res compressed images and server side mashed up code" if and when it makes it possible to browse and seek information faster, especially when the connection speed is slow.

My personal opinion is that iPhone currently has an reputation of a phone directed to some elite, or for rich people only. You need enough money to buy it and pay for fast 3G connection, and you need to leave in big cities where you have 3G network. If Apple wants to maintain that kind of reputation, then it's their decision.

EDIT: Too late

Originally posted by anonymous:

You can reply all you like but i wont be reading them from now on!!

Originally posted by anonymous:

I'm sorry but this opera groupie stuff has to stop, the GREAT thing about the iPhone platform is that it has one modern browser than behaves the same way and is a joy to develop for. It's easy to test and doesn't give a jaded view of what the internet is!

You are calling Opera users groupies, and yet you seem to be a perfect example of an Apple groupie yourself? You are saying that lack of choice is GOOD, and that there should only be one mobile browser, and that's the standard iPhone browser!

Putting opera on the iPhone just means everybody has to do more work to support a few people that feel rebellious because of there choice of browser!

Actually, Opera is the #1 mobile browser with nearly 30% market share. They will need to support it anyway.

Why concentrate your efforts on a platform with a good browser that uses standards.

Because Opera wants more users, and because Opera Mini has clear benefits as explained in the blog?

You guys do more work to get this on the iPhone, we as developers do more work to support this, nobody wins from this at all?!

Users win.

Anonymous writes: sorry, it's oot. I'm using opera mobile with mobile view setting enabled. And what i get to see in your mobile version of your site is horrible. I have to scroll horizontally to read. It can't automatically adjusted to mobile view like the other site. It's may be my opera's mistake, but i can't stand it. How can a website with the browser name in it and created by the same company can't view it?

Originally posted by anonymous:

Chrome, safari, konqueror they are all the same thing

WRONG! There are MAJOR differences even between different Webkit browsers.

You are clearly deeply ignorant, and don't really know what you are talking about.

Originally posted by anonymous:

i don't want the same thing on my iPhone, low res compressed images and server side mashed up code, i want the experience as it was intended to be

Does the iPhone support Flash? If you are going to criticize Opera Mini for not showing the web as it was intended to be, then surely the same should apply to Apple!

Hypocrisy much?

All this is fine, but back in Oct JvT had revealed that development for iPhone pattern was halted due to restrictive license. So what changed?

Originally posted by Indyan:

All this is fine, but back in Oct JvT had revealed that development for iPhone pattern was halted due to restrictive license. So what changed?

Opera Mini 5 was released?

Lawrence Curtis writes: Ok, so lets have a little understanding going on here, just because i say something doesn't make it fact or what everybody needs to follow and agree. I'm simply presenting my opinion. In my opinion opera mini for iPhone does more harm than good. You all have your own points and opinions, some good some bad, the thing i like about the iPhone is that it all lives in apple's code repo, if there is a problem every line of code they can fix and alter. Putting something on the iPhone like flash just means one third party problem that apple have no control over! Also not having flash drives html5 forward, that's not a bad thing! Clearly there is enough people to use opera mini on the iPhone, and all 10 of you or whatever i'm sure will do, there will be more, probably a lot of people will download it and wonder why they did. It's incredible how angry everybody gets, ignore everything i've read and replace it in your head with this simple and clear to understand line. "I think opera on iPhone does more harm than good" See the word think... that makes it my opinion, if you agree or disagree that's fine. This is really taking away from the fact that this is a well written blog article and @haavard deserves credit for working in something he believes in and doing a great job. It's just not for me, so i thought i would say so. Bandwaggon anybody?

@Lawrence Curtis Good points ! Opera is shutting down its office today ! We actually don't need an extra browser on the market. It's useless right ? Did I get your point across ?

Also, poor web devs that need to support multiple browsers. Yes, we should be aiming at a single device, single browser monopoly. That's why Microsoft is buying Opera so we can devote all our efforts to develop IE, the world most popular browser.

Lawrence Curtis writes: @xErath so what you were trying to say was.... It's fine that we don't agree, i'll get on with my life now!

Originally posted by anonymous:

In my opinion opera mini for iPhone does more harm than good.

Actually, it does more good than harm. More browsers = more important for designers to use standards.

Originally posted by anonymous:

Putting something on the iPhone like flash just means one third party problem that apple have no control over!

LOL, this is getting amusing. First you call people "Opera groupies" and then you expose your own mindless Apple fanboyism.

Originally posted by anonymous:

It's incredible how angry everybody gets, ignore everything i've read and replace it in your head with this simple and clear to understand line.

No one ignores anything, except you. Your claims have been debunked and refuted, and yet you keep commenting. Amazing.

Originally posted by anonymous:

@xErath so what you were trying to say was....

that wasn't XErath, just someone with nearly the same avatar, he had me too for a moment.

Originally posted by anonymous:

Also not having flash drives html5 forward, that's not a bad thing!

There, at least, we can agree. Now if only Apple supported .ogv as a standard for

Originally posted by anonymous:

See the word think... that makes it my opinion

I did understood it's your opinion, and only wanted to make clear other people have also their opinions. Getting Opera Mini into iPhone is not just "black or white". Some people (like me) have never even considered to buy iPhone because it's not good option to use in backwoods.

Originally posted by anonymous:

It's incredible how angry everybody gets, ignore everything i've read and replace it in your head with this simple and clear to understand line.

I did not became angry and sorry if you got that impression. I just wanted to add an alternative point of view.

EDIT: And if one or two posts angry replies, it's not yet "everyone".

Lawrence Curtis writes: So we all agree that is a well written blog post and this isn't the place to have religious battles. I'm glad to see a few people that get it, opera isn't for everybody, clearly it's for some though. Of course i'm an apple fanboy, they have given me no reason to be any other way! I converted from gentoo about 4 years ago now and we still run gentoo on our servers and we all dev on macs. Maybe it's time to stop all this? If you want to talk to me, discuss or scream, whatever you like @lawrencecurtis on twitter is me, if you just want to carry on a flame war on this poor guy's blog, that doesn't seem right!

I've not historically been too satisfied with Mobile Safari, personally, as it tends to be on the unresponsive side. If Opera Mini can provide me with the same information while also providing a more fluid user experience, then I want it.

As an aside for Lawrence Curtis: Opera Mini has been around for several years, longer than Safari Mobile. You might like to think that iPhone OS is the only mobile platform where Web browsing happens, but this just isn't the case. Mobile Safari is actually fairly new on the scene, so please, no cries of "Safari was here first! You're just getting in the way!"

There are also reports of mobile networks struggling under the increase in data traffic, causing slowdowns. With data compressed up to 90%, that slowdown will be less noticeable. You will also have much faster browsing in areas with poor 3G/WiFi coverage.

Your mobile network operator will thank you for easing the load on his network!

Originally posted by anonymous:

I'm glad to see a few people that get it, opera isn't for everybody

Neither is the iPhone. Or the iDildo. Or whatever iMasturbationToy Apple will push up your back side in the future.

Of course i'm an apple fanboy, they have given me no reason to be any other way!

Then you should surely not talk about other people in those terms, because that makes you a hypocrite.

Also, the iPhone browser sucks. It's slow and unusable compared to Opera. The UI in iPhone Safari is hell, and it fails even the simplest tasks beyond scrolling up and down.

Lawrence Curtis writes: @Purdi like i said, if you want to discuss it, here isn't the place

Originally posted by anonymous:

Of course i'm an apple fanboy, they have given me no reason to be any other way!

good for you.. it was crystal clear even before you wrote it...

Anyway, if everything you say it's just your opinion, can you understand that other people may have different opinions?

1- I can't see why having another browser on the iPhone would be bad... YOU don't have to develop for it just because it exists, if the user experience is bad than people won't use it and the problem is solved...
2- if safari mobile is standard compliant and you develop for it other standard browser will display your pages correctly.. it's opera's business to make their products standard compliant..

In the future I don't see iPhone ruling the mobile web... Google isn't joking with its Android and it's probably going to win the battle, Nokia and Symbian aren't dead, Samsung is ready with Bada and Opera mobile/mini has more users than mobile safari (just to cite the big players..).
The bottom line is: now you can develop just for your lovely-precious iPhone but in the end you will have to deal with multiple mobile browsers, want it or not!

Originally posted by bobthebob:

Rightly so too.

?

Originally posted by Lawrence Curtis:

my point is that we should be working towards a better web, not diluting it!

I would be very interested to know what you mean by the word "diluting" and what exactly you think would be better about a less diverse web.

Every single study into any aspect of any market on the planet has comprehensively shown that diversity and choice breeds innovation and progression, while monoculture (like the previous and current Microsoft monoculture, and the prevailing iPhone monoculture) invariably lead to stagnation. Do you disagree?

Originally posted by davewoods100:

they're entitled to reject competing software if they want

That depends on what country you're in and what laws you're abiding by. If you're in Europe (the only law I'm vaguely familiar with) they are certainly not entitled to do so.

Originally posted by Lawrence Curtis:

I'm sorry but on windows, fair game, put your browser on it, replace a bad browser with a slightly better one, but on an iPhone that is just stupid! Why concentrate your efforts on a platform with a good browser that uses standards. I think you're all missing the point here!

Internet Explorer WAS a great browser once upon a time (genuinely - no joke). It was exactly the kind of attitude you demonstrated there that lead us to the situation we have now. Try thinking in the long term.

Originally posted by Lawrence Curtis:

opera mini in my experience makes most websites i browse look deformed

This is because most websites you browse are badly designed and not standards compliant - which is a problem for Opera Mini users, but you can still use Safari if you like. It's not a problem for standards compliant developers though (as you seemed to be previously arguing).

@Purdi
Why comment if you can't be constructive? You may not agree with Lawrence's opinions, but he at least has put them forward politely and clearly, without resorting to childish insults.

Chrome, safari, konqueror they are all the same thing.

Why it's always up to me to tell the kids Santa Claus doesn't exist?:

There is not Webkit on Mobile - Quirksmode.org

I have a strong comment charged emotionally regarding Apple, may I?

Ok, Thanks. Here it goes:

FUCK APPLE!

Hate that company and the GOD of the whole iEartly world Steve Fucking Jobs.

I sory poor english my friend told fuck is a synonym for lovely.

Anonymous writes: Wow. Once Internet Explorer was admired in comparison to Netscape. If we had trusted IE and alternative browsers had not been there, where would the web be today? No video, no canvas, no css3, probably still worse. Let that poor guy live with his darling iPhone. He doesn't understand that handing the entire power of the Web to a single company can never be good.

No seriously, what is the point of Opera on iFuckingPhone?

People buying it already display horrible poor lack of judgment, does anybody seriously think that an Apple use is able to 'think differently' or perhaps he/she is a common no-brain'er incapable of using an application conceived outside Apple company. If iGod iSteve iJobs will say that Safari rocks and is kewl and Opera is pwn than it is the fact of live for those poor souls (may PC have mercy on them).