A Blog From Behind the Trenches

Wow. Apple's horrible, they still have that horrible Safari features page up too, saying they invented things they actually didn't. http://www.apple.com/safari/features.html

The Great Feature Train Robbery
http://log.dustinwilson.com/archives/2009/02/24/The_Great_Feature_Train_Robbery/

If you don't like Apple's HTML5 demo, write your own. Where on Opera's web site is there such a demonstration? Would it really be that hard to create, or is Opera not ready for HTML5 yet?

Originally posted by mjcaddell:

I see. And how do you use "border-radius" in Opera?

border-radius is not prefixed in Opera. You just use it.

What was stopping Opera from making its own cool page of Demos? When it comes to HTML5 support, Apple is showing what THEY support RIGHT NOW. They have no reason to explain why Opera can do it too.

And on the subject of support - when anyone (myself specifically) tries to use a cool! hip! neato! HTML5 feature cross-browser, it becomes futile to even try to adopt these new techniques. IE doesn't support anything adequately,

Originally posted by haavard:

Make sure you are using Opera 10.5x, though.

Right. I was on 10.10. I just upgraded and see that it works. I had to upgrade manually though because the automated thingy wasn't working, for whatever that is worth.

Also, what exactly is WRONG with using or supporting prefixed "stuff" for features that have not been published yet? The original post implies that Opera is somehow superior because it supports "border-radius" without the prefix, but CSS3 is not a published spec, so I don't see how that's "standards compliant" when you start treating as standard the things that aren't yet standard. At least with the webkit- and mozilla-prefixed features you know by looking at the code that they are experimental and not universally supported. As long as we're comparing people to Microsoft, that is the kind of crap that they used to pull with early versions of IE.

Originally posted by wonderboymusic:

If Opera kicks so much ass, make your own HTML5 showcase page. Stop getting pissed at Apple for showing what they think is an alternative to Flash in their own browser.

Amen, brother!

Oh dear. Here comes the ADF, Apple Defense Force.

Originally posted by wonderboymusic:

What was stopping Opera from making its own cool page of Demos? When it comes to HTML5 support, Apple is showing what THEY support RIGHT NOW. They have no reason to explain why Opera can do it too.

Fail. Did you even read Harvard's blog post? Apple aren't showing off HTML5. They are just claiming that it's HTML5.

If Opera kicks so much ass, make your own HTML5 showcase page. Stop getting pissed at Apple for showing what they think is an alternative to Flash in their own browser.

Fail. Did you even read Harvard's blog post? Apple aren't showing off HTML5. They are just claiming that it's HTML5.

Also, they are blocking other browsers from even trying to access the demos.

Maybe Apple fanboys should read his blog post before raging.

Originally posted by mjcaddell:

Also, what exactly is WRONG with using or supporting prefixed "stuff" for features that have not been published yet?

Who said there was anything wrong with it? Except of course you should also add the properties without prefixes.

No one ever said using vendor prefixes was wrong. Harvard just pointed out that it prevented other browsers from displaying the demos, even where other browsers do support those things. Fail.

The original post implies that Opera is somehow superior because it supports "border-radius" without the prefix

No it doesn't. It uses border-radius as an example of something other browsers support without a prefix, but which Apple still kept the prefix for. Fail.

At least with the webkit- and mozilla-prefixed features you know by looking at the code that they are experimental and not universally supported.

Red herring. Fail.

Originally posted by prd3:

Also, they are blocking other browsers from even trying to access the demos.

It's not Apple's responsibility to create a demo page for every HTML5 browser to be tested on. The page isn't about "look how awesome HTML5 is", it's about "look how great Safari is with these non-Flash technologies." You keep asking "did you read the blog post". Well, did YOU even look at the site that the blog post is about?

I'm not a raging fanboy. I believe Apple like anyone else should be criticized where it's due. But bitching because their demo page only works on Safari is awfully whiny and petty. As several of us have been saying: what is stopping Opera from making their own HTML5 demo site if they are so damned proud of Opera's HTML5 capabilities?

Oh, and "fail"??? What is this, 2005?

hey @prd3 -

Show me Opera's showcase page of Biblically-pure HTML5 demos and I'll start to give a shit about whatever you think that means.

FYI, I read the entire blog post, and it sounds like someone whining and someone who doesn't have an HTML5 demo page.

Dude, if Opera makes one, it kicks ass, it's purer HTML5, and better: it will probably be acknowledged as such.

Remove the chip from your shoulder.

Originally posted by mjcaddell:

It's not Apple's responsibility to create a demo page for every HTML5 browser to be tested on. The page isn't about "look how awesome HTML5 is", it's about "look how great Safari is with these non-Flash technologies."

It's Apple's responsibility to not lie and deceive. Apple are lying and deceiving. And yes, the page claims to be about "look how awesome HTML5 is."

You keep asking "did you read the blog post". Well, did YOU even look at the site that the blog post is about?

Yes. It claims to be a HTML5 showcase, but most of the tests have got nothing to do with HTML5.

I'm not a raging fanboy. I believe Apple like anyone else should be criticized where it's due. But bitching because their demo page only works on Safari is awfully whiny and petty.

You evidently did not read the blog post. The blog post is about how they claim to be showcasing HTML5 when they are hardly using any HTML5 at all, and they are also blocking other browsers to prevent them from giving it a go.

As several of us have been saying: what is stopping Opera from making their own HTML5 demo site if they are so damned proud of Opera's HTML5 capabilities?

That's just a red herring. You are desperately trying to change the subject and point fingers to deflect criticism from Apple. Fail.

Originally posted by wonderboymusic:

Show me Opera's showcase page of Biblically-pure HTML5 demos and I'll start to give a shit about whatever you think that means.

Hey Scott, red herring, pointing fingers to deflect criticism. Fail.

FYI, I read the entire blog post, and it sounds like someone whining and someone who doesn't have an HTML5 demo page.

Nor does Apple. Apple has a bunch of CSS3 and stuff like that, and very little HTML5. So the claimed "HTML5 demo" is nowhere to be seen.

Dude, if Opera makes one, it kicks ass, it's purer HTML5, and better: it will probably be acknowledged as such.

That's not the point. The point is Apple's dishonesty.

Originally posted by prd3:

No it doesn't. It uses border-radius as an example of something other browsers support without a prefix, but which Apple still kept the prefix for. Fail.

You have an interesting habit of responding to individual sentences while missing the overall point completely. My point is that "border-radius" is in CSS3 which hasn't been published as an official spec yet, so faulting someone for only supporting the vendor-prefixed feature is silly. And don't say "other browsers" (plural) when what you mean to say is "Opera".

"You evidently did not read the blog post. The blog post is about how they claim to be showcasing HTML5 when they are hardly using any HTML5 at all, and they are also blocking other browsers to prevent them from giving it a go. "

I downloaded all of the source code last night and ran the Gallery demo in Chrome. You could do the same, change the prefixes, and run it in Opera. What's stopping you?

Originally posted by mjcaddell:

You have an interesting habit of responding to individual sentences while missing the overall point completely. My point is that "border-radius" is in CSS3 which hasn't been published as an official spec yet, so faulting someone for only supporting the vendor-prefixed feature is silly. And don't say "other browsers" (plural) when what you mean to say is "Opera".

You are once again missing the point and using red herrings. Fail.

Also, Chrome supports border-radius without a prefix. Fail fail fail.

Originally posted by wonderboymusic:

I downloaded all of the source code last night and ran the Gallery demo in Chrome. You could do the same, change the prefixes, and run it in Opera. What's stopping you?

Red herring FAIL.

Anyone who uses "fail" five times in a single comment needs to get a dictionary and/or grow the hell up.

Originally posted by prd3:

You are once again missing the point and using red herrings. Fail.

No, YOU are missing the point and talking a lot about red herrings. What are you, Norwegian?

Here is the opening paragraph of that Apple page:
Every new Apple mobile device and every new Mac — along with the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser — supports web standards including HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. These web standards are open, reliable, highly secure, and efficient. They allow web designers and developers to create advanced graphics, typography, animations, and transitions. Standards aren’t add-ons to the web. They are the web. And you can start using them today.

See where it says HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript? Now what part of this is a "lie"? What part of this implies that they are ONLY using HTML5? It says right here that there's a combination of technologies involved.

The page says, "The demos below show how the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser, new Macs, and new Apple mobile devices all support the capabilities of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript." So it's clearly demoing more than HTML5, and is clearly intended to demo it on Safari, not all browsers. So tell me again what the deception is?

Originally posted by mjcaddell:

See where it says HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript? Now what part of this is a "lie"?

The lie is that it claims to be a "HTML5 showcase", while most of that stuff is not HTML5.

Apple clearly wants you to believe that if you want to use HTML5, you need Safari. But the page hardly uses any HTML5 at all.

Originally posted by genevish:

So it's clearly demoing more than HTML5, and is clearly intended to demo it on Safari, not all browsers. So tell me again what the deception is?

The deception is that it claims to be a "HTML5 showcase". The page is called "HTML5 Showcase", and the address is apple.com/html5. We know the "fine print" trick. Microsoft is using it too, in order to fool people into thinking that IE9 supports more HTML5 and all that than any other browser.

Originally posted by prd3:

and the address is apple.com/html5.

That's right. The address is NOT opera.com.

Read through this whole string of responses and see who comes off as more of a "raging fanboy".

I'm done here.

Originally posted by mjcaddell:

That's right. The address is NOT opera.com.

Nice attempt at getting away from the fact that it's called "apple.com/html5".

It's just another red herring. You are apparently saying that no one can criticize anything unless they do the exact same thing.

So one would have to create a "HTML5 showcase" page with no HTML5 before one could criticize Apple of doing the same thing!

Excellent logic.

Do these test only test the final parts of the spec, since HTML 5 is not final itself?

Originally posted by prd3:

So one would have to create a "HTML5 showcase" page with no HTML5 before one could criticize Apple of doing the same thing!

So now you're saying the page uses no HTML5?

1. "One almost gets the impression that "HTML5" is just a buzzword"

As used in the headline, understandably, it is a shorthand expression. That's why Apple put in, on every single page, in large type, right on top: "The demos below show how Apple’s Safari web browser supports the capabilities of web standards such as HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript." That's as clear and explicit as you could possibly expect.

2. "using ... the patent-encumbered H.264 for video."

As opposed to what? The un-patent-encumbant OGG? You're just baiting...

3. "it's coded using -webkit-border-radius"

The radius tag has not yet been officially adopted. Adding the browser prefix, therefore, is the correct usage for the time being. As a developer you should know that.

Opera, I realize this is only your blog and that the views stated here "do not necessarily represent those of Opera Software," but keep in mind that everything your employees do is marketing. Ranting about a competitor's demo page because your product gets blocked doesn't really come off very well. You look whiny and pathetic, and I certainly have a much lower opinion of Opera as a result.

Originally posted by a1kim:

You look whiny and pathetic

This is not whining (I can tell you Opera has a lot of experience with finding browser sniffers (blame IE 6 for that) Opera has browser js other browser have similar things because of broken code in pages or browser sniffers) He is just pointing out that this is poor show casing of HTML 5 as Safari is not the Only browser with HTML 5 and CSS 3 support

I sense raging Apple fanboys disturbing the Force once again

the main quibble i have is: i really like the demos, and of course apple can use those to showcase safari to the best of its abilities. it's the browser-sniffing and "best viewed in netscape navigator" approach of old which is EXACLTY why the whole "designing with web standards" movement was started...and by doing that, they've done the open web a disservice. why not let any browser get to that page...if it uses features that others can't handle, what better way to show how superior their product is than to have other browsers fall on their ass when trying to render the demos? imho, of course.

Don't forget that Safari and Webkit are not the same thing. The Apple demos should work in any Webkit-based browser, one of which happens to be Safari. Webkit is truly open source and on the absolute cutting edge of HTML5 and CSS3 support. Many, many browsers use Webkit (including Google Chrome and Android's Browser) and therefore should have no problem viewing the demos. I think that's a significantly large user base to dispel any "for Apple only" claims.

Webkit uses vendor prefixes for unpublished specs, which is a calculated design decision to play nice with other browsers. It's Opera's own poor judgement if it implements a feature that hasn't been finalized and then expects the world to do the same. The Mozilla guys use prefixes as well, so you've got one hell of an uphill battle if you want to convince the rest of the internet that this is somehow not the preferred approach, until "official" support makes sense.

and generally, the whole point about html5, css3, etc is that you can use it with progressive enhancement/graceful degradation in a production environment. let the top-notch browsers display all the bells and whistles, and let older or less capable browsers deal with what they can.

Originally posted by a1kim:

Ranting about a competitor's demo page because your product gets blocked doesn't really come off very well.

Are you drunk or something?

Did you even read the first line in the blog? It clearly states that the blog post is a RESPONSE to questions from Opera users.

Originally posted by a1kim:

You look whiny and pathetic

Says the whiny little Apple fanboy who can't take the fact that Apple was once again busted for lying.

@greg we also use vendor prefixed features. once features reach maturity though, we implement them without prefix. sure, apple are free to just use -webkit prefixed versions. we (as in our team in developer relations) usually do try to write our various demos for http://dev.opera.com with all other vendor-prefixed properties so that our demos shine for their use of the technology, not just to showcase our support. again, i don't have a problem with the apple page just using -webkit. more power to them. it's really the sniffing part that rubs me the wrong way. each to their own i guess...

Originally posted by xdissent:

I think that's a significantly large user base to dispel any "for Apple only" claims.

Huh? Did you not read the about Apple blocking any browser that isn't Safari?

Originally posted by newRyszard:

As used in the headline, understandably, it is a shorthand expression. That's why Apple put in, on every single page, in large type, right on top: "The demos below show how Apple’s Safari web browser supports the capabilities of web standards such as HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript." That's as clear and explicit as you could possibly expect.

No, it is not. The very first paragraph of the blog post explains that it is a response to questions from people about Opera's HTML5 compliance based on Apple's page.

Just like Microsoft's disgustingly dishonest IE9 standards support table, Apple tries to give the impression that the page tests HTML5, but, basically it hardly tests any HTML5 at all.

The title "CSS3 showcase" would have been much more honest and correct. But for Apple, honesty and fact does not matter.

Originally posted by newRyszard:

As opposed to what? The un-patent-encumbant OGG?

Yes, the Theora guys are not threatening to sue you if you don't pay them extortion fees.

Originally posted by Chas4:

Do these test only test the final parts of the spec, since HTML 5 is not final itself?

They hardly use any HTML5. Apparently mostly CSS stuff. So Apple is lying. Again.

Originally posted by prd3:

Huh? Did you not read the about Apple blocking any browser that isn't Safari?

Seriously, you're way too excited, dude. Relax. I still think you mean Webkit after a cursory look at what I'm assuming is the sniffing code you're talking about: AC.Detector.isWebKit()

Originally posted by xdissent:

I still think you mean Webkit after a cursory look at what I'm assuming is the sniffing code you're talking about: AC.Detector.isWebKit()

No, it blocks Chrome too. Try it with Chrome. You get the message leading people to believe that Safari is the only HTML5 capable browser despite the fact that Chrome has superior HTML5 support compared to Safari.

Awesome. The rest of the web is catching on to Apple's dishonesty:

http://www.osnews.com/story/23411/Apple_s_HTML5_Showcase_Isn_t_HTML5_Blocks_Other_Browsers

Originally posted by prd3:

Chrome has superior HTML5 support compared to Safari.

Is this true? Does Chrome support local session storage aside from Gears now? If you're speaking specifically about the audio and video codec differences, I'd say that's clearly a matter of opinion at this point.

I'd say the extreme statements of absolutes are the problem, not the browsers or Apple. Apple tried to do a good thing to promote the undeniable future of the web, and as a bonus they proved that you don't have to use their App Store to create bad ass apps for the iPhone/iPad. I don't understand why you're acting like the world is worse off as a result. What would you rather them do? Should they have released demos that would likely break in many environments? Do you not think you'd be reacting in an even more hostile way if that were the case?

"No, it blocks Chrome too. Try it with Chrome. You get the message leading people to believe that Safari is the only HTML5 capable browser despite the fact that Chrome has superior HTML5 support compared to Safari."

yeah, if your grandmother loads it in Chrome it will tell her to go to hell. If a Software Engineer downloads the fucking code instead of acting like Apple is an abusive husband and runs the code in his own browser, he will see that it works, minus some of the 3D shit (that may have been my fault in some way).

What is making you cry about CSS3 and Apple so much? I use Chrome, NOT Safari. But I can still look at cool shit and say "that looks interesting."

I know you are living in a 'trebuchet ms' world over here at Opera, that's fantastic, but that doesn't mean everyone else should also think Apple is a mean bully and should suck it.

Of note:
border-radius is in the CSS 3 Background and Borders module which is a candidate recommendation.

A Candidate Recommendation is a document that W3C believes has been widely reviewed and satisfies the Working Group's technical requirements. W3C publishes a Candidate Recommendation to gather implementation experience.

from the W3C Process Document

For implementation experience to be any kind of useful has to include interoperability between different implementations. Something that the -webkit- prefix precludes. Does Safari WebKit not support plain border-radius yet? (Apparently not.)

Also of note:
CSS 2.1 is also a candidate recommendation. Should everyone still be using vendor prefixes there too?

Originally posted by xdissent:

Is this true? Does Chrome support local session storage aside from Gears now?

Now you are cherry-picking something. That's not very honest. Also, Google already ditched Gears.

If you're speaking specifically about the audio and video codec differences, I'd say that's clearly a matter of opinion at this point.

No, HTML5 as a whole. Chrome supports more of it.

Originally posted by wonderboymusic:

yeah, if your grandmother loads it in Chrome it will tell her to go to hell. If a Software Engineer downloads the fucking code instead of acting like Apple is an abusive husband and runs the code in his own browser, he will see that it works, minus some of the 3D shit (that may have been my fault in some way).

Red herring alert! This is about Apple's misleading and dishonest conduct.

Originally posted by wonderboymusic:

But I can still look at cool shit and say "that looks interesting."

I didn't say anything about whether it looked interesting or not. I pointed out how Apple lied.

Originally posted by wonderboymusic:

I know you are living in a 'trebuchet ms' world over here at Opera

What on earth is that supposed to mean? Are you drunk or something?

Originally posted by BtEO:

CSS 2.1 is also a candidate recommendation. Should everyone still be using vendor prefixes there too?

Nope, because CSS2.1 was actually created to address the very issue of too many in-the-wild implementations of forthcoming CSS3 features.

Originally posted by xdissent:

Nope, because CSS2.1 was actually created to address the very issue of too many in-the-wild implementations of forthcoming CSS3 features.

So you are saying that vendor prefixes should be removed from some candidate recommendations, but not others?

Where are all the other people who think that Apple lied? The term HTML5 is misused constantly to represent the whole package of technologies. Would you prefer they say "Web Stack" or "Safari Bundle of Goodies"?