Saturday, 18. February 2006, 01:16:28
It is part of the two China's syndrome. It appears to be a separate country but for decades has regarded itself as the legitimate government of China since the Civil War. It was originally one of the Provinces. A once much controlled state it has now moved to a democracy. Also for years, the R.O.C. was on the UN Security Council as a permanent member representing China. This was obviously as time went on, patently absurd and was changed. Since the losing of power of the Kuomintang there has been a proportion of the population wanting independence. This move was a gradual thing. In the early days when Chiang Kai-Shek moved there after the Civil War with mainlanders fleeing the Communists, such a concept was not to be tolerated and the native inhabitants pushing for an independent Taiwan Republic not tolerated. However the Kuomintang view of not wanting "independence" is still a strong constituency and argue against such. Any move in that direction would I suspect leade to a military clash as Red china has made it's feelings well clear on that. This in turn would put the US in a difficult scenario too.
Taiwan is a vibrant country and it is obvious that the mainland government seen how well the market economy did for their fellow citizens across the straits. I cannot see Taiwan re-uniting under a Red dictatorship and rightly so. Equally the R.O.C would not sit back and let themselves be invaded no matter how outnumbered. If the day ever comes when China becomes democratic then the "rebel" Taiwan Province would then be back inside China proper.
Saturday, 18. February 2006, 05:06:06
Originally posted by wsxiaoys:
Red China?Why many people call china with this words?
I think it's a prejudice to PRC....
The word Red is simply used to describe a country with a communist system. I wouldn't say it's a terribly offensive or prejudicial word. Just slang that's become a common part of the language.
Saturday, 18. February 2006, 06:56:36
Taiwan is a part of China. I believe in time, Taiwan will re-integrate with the mainland when the political systems of both come to have more in common. At the present, in the interest of all, it is better to leave things as they are i.e. status quo. A conflict between these two parts of China will not benefit anyone.
Like it or not, the world has to contend with the fact that the "Dragon" has risen from its sleep.
Saturday, 18. February 2006, 08:12:36
Originally posted by wsxiaoys:
Originally posted by garydenness:
I wouldn't say it's a terribly offensive or prejudicial word.
Why some people think a country with a communist system is terribly offensive.....?
I don't think it offensive, but remember Tienamin Square and the fact that simple freedoms of choice are prohibited and severely punished. The plight of the practioners of Falun Gong is an example. The fact that the government filters information from users in China is another.
Saturday, 18. February 2006, 09:27:52 (edited)
2. In my opinion Taiwan and China are two independent countries that at one point in history used to be one. Just like part of Norway and the whole of Finland once was a part of the Swedish empire. Now both of these countries are rightfully recognized as independent nations. Another historic example would be the most southernmost region of Sweden, Skåne that once was part of Denmark but that now is a part of Sweden, and rightfully recognized as such. The best example in some aspects might be the island Åland that also once was part of Sweden, but that while not being a independent nation it now is recognized as a Autonomous province of Finland.
Saturday, 18. February 2006, 13:27:09
Very, very big. And a country that has traditions going back thousands of years. No other country has this. We have all been invaded and changed many times.
2.In your eyes , Taiwan is one independent country or a part of china?
Independent. Communism means dictatorship. Democracy is not perfect, but it is better than dictatorship.
Saturday, 18. February 2006, 13:37:31
Originally posted by jimwager:
1.In your eyes , What type country is China?
Very, very big. And a country that has traditions going back thousands of years. No other country has this. We have all been invaded and changed many times.
2.In your eyes , Taiwan is one independent country or a part of china?
Independent. Communism means dictatorship. Democracy is not perfect, but it is better than dictatorship.
China has been invaded a number of times, and in a very destructive way. Guess why the Wall was built! The history of Beijing as a city is a result of occupation by the Mongols.
Something most are unaware of though - China has been the world's manufacturing and economic superpower for most of the last 2,000 years +. It's only in the last 200 approx years that they have found themselves surpassed by western nations.
Sunday, 19. February 2006, 01:51:22
Perhaps wxsiaoys might like to query why his country imprisons so many of it's citizens who are not prepared to be brainwashed? Tiamen Square was an eye-opener for many here because you most certainly do not have a free society. The people are kept in line and quiet because in bringing in a capitalist economy the government can stave off opposition.
The view that Taiwan and China mainland will one day be as one again I would again submit is not likely as long as their is a military dictatorship running the mainland.
Meanwhile I await wxsiaoys's answer to the dictatorship he lives in.
Sunday, 19. February 2006, 01:56:32
Originally posted by rjhowie:
Tiamen Square was an eye-opener for many here because you most certainly do not have a free society.
Some good reading on Tianamen Sq can be had from John Simpson, BBC Foreign Correspondant in China at the time, who witnessed the massacre, and brought only the only known video footage from that evening. It's not all negative, he has a lot of nice things to say about the people he met, although his sentiments towards the leadship aren't quite so enthusiastic. It's an interesting read. As are the chapters from elsewhere in the world.
Sunday, 19. February 2006, 05:37:48
Originally posted by rjhowie:
Meanwhile I await wxsiaoys's answer to the dictatorship he lives in.
..Maybe China doesn't has the same freedom of speech as the western,but i don't think it's the dictatorship....
And about Tiananmen sq,Do you really know all things about it?Have you ever seen the truth,or you just hear of about it.....
Communism means dictatorship?
It just like a joke!Do you really understand communism?
Sunday, 19. February 2006, 14:01:17
Originally posted by wsxiaoys:
Originally posted by rjhowie:
Meanwhile I await wxsiaoys's answer to the dictatorship he lives in.
..Maybe China doesn't has the same freedom of speech as the western,but i don't think it's the dictatorship....
And about Tiananmen sq,Do you really know all things about it?Have you ever seen the truth,or you just hear of about it.....
Communism means dictatorship?
It just like a joke!Do you really understand communism?
I am a little curious? Do you believe that you live in a democratic state? What is your view on what 'communism' means. Can everyone vote for the new leader of the party? And it is called the Communist Party still, right! I have often wondered myself whether it would be a terribly big deal if we had just one party in the UK and elsewhere, and instead of voting upon ingrained party 'beliefs' , we voted for a leader and cabinet according to their policies. Just an idea!
I believe parts of China are shaking off the old sytem (well, it's become abundantly clear!) but much of the country and population are seeing little change.
And perhaps the crux question would be, what do you know about Tiananmen Square? What have you been told? That might answer a few questions.
Sunday, 19. February 2006, 14:14:42
Originally posted by garydenness:
I believe parts of China are shaking off the old sytem (well, it's become abundantly clear!) but much of the country and population are seeing little change.
And perhaps the crux question would be, what do you know about Tiananmen Square? What have you been told? That might answer a few questions.
72,000 demonstrations last year say reams!
Sunday, 19. February 2006, 16:37:59
Originally posted by wsxiaoys:
And about Tiananmen sq,Do you really know all things about it?Have you ever seen the truth,or you just hear of about it.
No, I wasn't there. Maybe you were. If not, you're probably in about as good a position to say as the rest of us. We rely on eyewitness accounts such as this: http://www.wri-irg.org/nonviolence/nvsd10-en.htm. China: a time of hope met by horror, by Leung Wing Yue, Lau Bing Sum, and Liu Wei Ping. I'll put up a quote from it, just in case your government, or the Western internet search companies that now do their bidding, won't let you see it:
The government not only ignored this, they declared martial law on the 20 May. And that led to the massacre on 4 June 1989.
On 4 June I was working for the Red Cross in Beijing. I saw nine students killed in front of my own eyes. That evening I was hurt by a bullet. At four o'clock in the morning there were four female students inside a tent. The armoured car was coming across Tiananmen Square. One of the students was taken away. I tried to stop the armoured car. I told them there were people inside the tent. But the soldiers didn't listen to me. They pointed at me and accused me of being a thug. The armoured car moved slowly toward the tent. I could only stand there. The car crept through. I could hear them screaming. I heard their last screams and then they were dead. One of the soldiers shouted "You must clear away!"
Being one of the Red Cross workers, I was very clear about what happened that evening at the Square. Throughout it all, people used peaceful means to appeal to the government, but the government used force against the people. We couldn't believe that these things could be done by the People's Army and the people's government. After this massacre, the people became anti-government. This was terrorism against their own people. Many people disappeared. My own family was surrounded several times by soldiers sent for me. I finally managed to escape and come to Britain and became a political refugee.
(end quote)
By the way, there are indeed some debates about how much of the killing occurred inside the Square and how much in the streets around. I'll leave it at that.
Sunday, 19. February 2006, 17:21:19
Originally posted by wsxiaoys:
Originally posted by garydenness:
I wouldn't say it's a terribly offensive or prejudicial word.
Why some people think a country with a communist system is terribly offensive.....?
Because in so many counties people cannot vote a Communist Party out of Power.
Sunday, 19. February 2006, 18:04:30
I don't think the country now is prepared for full democracy that you westners today have, but the day will come, when people can freely elect their goverment.
Not many countries recognize Taiwan as a independent state, but in fact it is, they have their own goverment, law, army...
Because of fear of war and pressure from US, they can't declare independence. But not like many of you, i don't think taiwan will unite with the mainland even after the mainland has a democratic political system, as some taiwanese say now: mainland without democracy, unification no way, with democracy, then why? not necessary!
Sunday, 19. February 2006, 18:59:59
The Communists are still breathing at Taiwan too by the way. Fleet exercises in the Taiwan Straits, threats, etc. All no doubt from the ever benign Communists regime we are misunerstanding?! Now we are getting a fairytale scenario about Tienamin Square. Oh, for goodness sake this stuff is unbelievable. I can almost understand it as the Party is ever present but don't expect me to praise them for keeping a nation in bondage. Communism and it's throttling hold on people's destiny is a curse of history and the sooner it goes the better for people who really want to feel free.
Sunday, 19. February 2006, 22:00:50
Originally posted by rjhowie:
The Communists are still breathing at Taiwan too by the way. Fleet exercises in the Taiwan Straits, threats, etc. All no doubt from the ever benign Communists regime we are misunerstanding?! Now we are getting a fairytale scenario about Tienamin Square. Oh, for goodness sake this stuff is unbelievable. I can almost understand it as the Party is ever present but don't expect me to praise them for keeping a nation in bondage. Communism and it's throttling hold on people's destiny is a curse of history and the sooner it goes the better for people who really want to feel free.
More so than most people realize.
Top Chinese general warns US over attack
By Alexandra Harney in Beijing and Demetri Sevastopulo and Edward Alden in Washington
Published: July 14 2005 20:59 | Last updated: July 14 2005 23:03
China is prepared to use nuclear weapons against the US if it is attacked by Washington during a confrontation over Taiwan, a Chinese general said on Thursday.
“If the Americans draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on China's territory, I think we will have to respond with nuclear weapons,” said General Zhu Chenghu.
Gen Zhu was speaking at a function for foreign journalists organised, in part, by the Chinese government. He added that China's definition of its territory included warships and aircraft.
“If the Americans are determined to interfere [then] we will be determined to respond,” said Gen Zhu, who is also a professor at China's National Defence University.
“We . . . will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds . . . of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese.”
[\quote]
Sunday, 19. February 2006, 23:57:12
Originally posted by BernG:
Originally posted by rjhowie:
The Communists are still breathing at Taiwan too by the way. Fleet exercises in the Taiwan Straits, threats, etc. All no doubt from the ever benign Communists regime we are misunerstanding?! Now we are getting a fairytale scenario about Tienamin Square. Oh, for goodness sake this stuff is unbelievable. I can almost understand it as the Party is ever present but don't expect me to praise them for keeping a nation in bondage. Communism and it's throttling hold on people's destiny is a curse of history and the sooner it goes the better for people who really want to feel free.
More so than most people realize.
Top Chinese general warns US over attack
By Alexandra Harney in Beijing and Demetri Sevastopulo and Edward Alden in Washington
Published: July 14 2005 20:59 | Last updated: July 14 2005 23:03
China is prepared to use nuclear weapons against the US if it is attacked by Washington during a confrontation over Taiwan, a Chinese general said on Thursday.
“If the Americans draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on China's territory, I think we will have to respond with nuclear weapons,” said General Zhu Chenghu.
Gen Zhu was speaking at a function for foreign journalists organised, in part, by the Chinese government. He added that China's definition of its territory included warships and aircraft.
“If the Americans are determined to interfere [then] we will be determined to respond,” said Gen Zhu, who is also a professor at China's National Defence University.
“We . . . will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds . . . of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese.”
[\quote]
I think the threat to Taiwan from China is a hugely overstated, and much of what has happened previously has amounted to bluster more than anything. As is the case with most political disagreements. There are too many wars, but if one was fought everytime someone got upset....!
China is an emerging military power, but at present and for the foreseeable future, it would be unable to win a war, outside it's own territory, against a number of the worlds powers. And they know it. The most provocative exercises they have undertaken were about 10 years ago (from memory.... could be 5 years ago!), and timed to coincide with Taiwanese exercises in a close proximity. The US moved in the 6th fleet and made it's intentions clear....China didn't push it's luck and events passed off without great ado.
Why did the US take such an interest? Check out how much of the hi tech goods the US depends upon come from Taiwan. We wouldn't have laptops without them. Check out the amount of foreign currency they hold. The economic consequences of the ROC being invaded do not bear thinking about from a US govt viewpoint. It's almost as if they have oil!
As for a nuclear option mentioned....sabre rattling if ever I heard it!! Firstly China's own nuclear arsenal consists of approx 400 warheads, but many of these are not deployed, and would take some time and effort to do so. What weapons they have got deployed aren't exactly cutting edge, and there are no guarantees how many might make it to a target, let alone hit a target. The US (or UK/France/Russia) has the capability to leave a big hole where China once stood in a matter of minutes. It's presently very one sided, and when you take the premise that a nuclear exchange must result in mutually assured destruction then you accept China has lost the war by a huge margin before it has commenced. On the other hand, China has a poulation of more than a billion, and would be capable of sending troops by the tens of millions into a conventional war, where it could make things more than a little tricky. That could then provoke, with Bush as president in particular, a tactical nuclear strike by the Us....hold on, where is this going?
None of it will happen, largely because it is a no win situation for China. China is a developing country, and has vast potential. Too many look at or hear about the potential and confuse it with the current reality.
You should also bear in mind that both the ROC and PRC are doing okay economically and would like to stay that way, and that there are many areas of improvement in their relations.
Monday, 20. February 2006, 02:01:11
Originally posted by garydenness:
I think the threat to Taiwan from China is a hugely overstated, and much of what has happened previously has amounted to bluster more than anything. As is the case with most political disagreements. There are too many wars, but if one was fought everytime someone got upset....!
China considers Taiwan to be their renegade province. There is also a popular movement in Taiwan for reunion with China. If it becomes large enough, the Chinese can say they are invited back and may set up a system as they did in Hong Kong.
Having seen the limits of American power, they now feel more confident when they rattle their sabers. Plus, a senior general can only make that kind of statement with the approval of the senior leaders.
Monday, 20. February 2006, 02:18:27
Originally posted by wsxiaoys:
Maybe China doesn't has the same freedom of speech as the western,but i don't think it's the dictatorship....
And about Tiananmen sq,Do you really know all things about it?Have you ever seen the truth,or you just hear of about it.....
Communism means dictatorship?
It just like a joke!Do you really understand communism?
People seem to think bad of what they don't understand, because it does not sit well with their views. Lets leave china to it's people.
Monday, 20. February 2006, 02:57:58
Originally posted by BernG:
Originally posted by garydenness:
I think the threat to Taiwan from China is a hugely overstated, and much of what has happened previously has amounted to bluster more than anything. As is the case with most political disagreements. There are too many wars, but if one was fought everytime someone got upset....!
China considers Taiwan to be their renegade province. There is also a popular movement in Taiwan for reunion with China. If it becomes large enough, the Chinese can say they are invited back and may set up a system as they did in Hong Kong.
Having seen the limits of American power, they now feel more confident when they rattle their sabers. Plus, a senior general can only make that kind of statement with the approval of the senior leaders.
Hong Kong and Taiwan are entirely different issues, and can't really be compared. A unification movement there might be, but an independence movement exists as well. And the military point I raised was in response to the nuclear threat, and China has seen nothing to believe the US is limited there....in fact they are developing new weapons to be able to deploy nukes in a wider range of situations, so the reverse is true. And that the comments would have been approved by politicians in my opinion is a major reason to believe it was sabre rattling.
I haven't said long term reunification isn't possible! I believe it would be peaceful though.
Monday, 20. February 2006, 07:20:03
Originally posted by Skillgannon:
i quite agree. Noone in this thread has proposed undertaking regime change in Beijing. The focus has mostly been on what to do if the Peoples Republic of China were to threaten to invade Taiwan - dont know if you have any views on that.
People seem to think bad of what they don't understand, because it does not sit well with their views. Lets leave china to it's people.
Tuesday, 21. February 2006, 01:55:49
As for the mainland, the success of the Republic of China (Taiwan)economically and the standard of living showed them the way to go rather than state control of everything. Macallan is perhaps near the truth in saying that Tapeh is in fact de facto, independent but keeping up a degree of pretence. I don't know about now but I do know that a few decades ago, Taiwan kept up a kind of pretence for propaganda value, etc. and as the policy of the Kuomintang (Nationalist Party) They had 2 parliaments in Taipeh. One was for the Taiwan Provincial legislature and the other the "National" Parliament which even in the 1970's had MP's representing their old constituencies on the mainland (!). The thinking behind this was that they were the legitimate government temporarily off the mainland and would be back some day.
Tuesday, 21. February 2006, 16:40:26
a country ruled by a dictator
Does China have a dictator? No, it hasn't now. Over 50 years communist ruling in China, maybe Mao's last 10 years was dictatorship, but a lot of time was totalitarianism, nowdays it tends to be authoritarian, control of chineses citizen's lives by the state is no longer like before.
Taiwan island belongs to China, no doubt about this. Even if the mainland is fighting with taiwan, it's not invasion, it's a civil war. Military threat is there, because the chinese goverment can't afford to declare of independence of taiwan, otherwise it faces collaps of ruling, and the independence is rejected by the most chinese (not only from mainland but also from overseas). But the war won't happen in my view, in the first 30 years ruling communist's policy towards taiwan is "liberation", then after 90's peaceful unification was proposed to taiwan side, but was rejected (like model Hongkong, but Hongkong and taiwan indeed are different cases) , and now the chinese goverment's real thought is that "let it to be like now".
19 century the british's invasion brought in opium, disaster to then old china, loss of huge wealth, but i must admit, in the long run, foreigners' entry did help progress of China, infulence we can see in many aspects, in science, technology, political...but 200 years could be one country's whole history, to China's over 3000 years it's still little time, a lot of old things remain, the country is in the way of change, overnight revolution is not possible, but free election will come into true one day.
Tuesday, 21. February 2006, 21:32:07
I also noticed there was no comment about the tens of thousands rounded up by the police and secret police and put into Chinese forms of the old Russian Gulags. What are they there for then? They certainly are not all bandits. Thousands of them are there because they don't agree with the government. Civil rights in China are a joke. The Party bosses know that to go too far in that direction will result in them losing their dictatorial power over the masses. As for Communism having some kind of good face there just look at the thousands who die continually in the coal mines for example. There is no proper Trade Union to look after them. You would think in this so-called workers paradise they would have more concern for the health and safety of the "comrades". As I have said, the Chinese will not take any chance of raising too many heads if not happy with the system because they know what will happen to them. Instead they are seduced and bribed by all the consumer goods flooding into the place. Understandbly, they toe the Party line.
Taiwan is part of China and any action would be a resumption of the Civil War but at least in Taiwan they have a whole raft of political parties, freedom of worship and so on. It's a Chinese democracy which the mainland certainly is not.
Tuesday, 21. February 2006, 22:09:09
Originally posted by rjhowie:
As I have said, the Chinese will not take any chance of raising too many heads if not happy with the system because they know what will happen to them. Instead they are seduced and bribed by all the consumer goods flooding into the place. Understandbly, they toe the Party line.
As I never tire of saying, in 2005 by government report, there were 72,000 protests in the country, some of them sizeable. They arise in response to government corruption, mostly at the local and provincial levels, from expropriation of private property for public projects and from the placement of environmentally detrimental projects near populated areas. Some are ethnic in nature, others religious, as in Xinjiang province where the majority of the people are Uighurs and Muslim. It's best not to oversimplify China's complexity. It isn't Scotland, however, and the Chinese have that to be thankful for.
Wednesday, 22. February 2006, 16:37:11
Originally posted by rjhowie:
What sort of comment is that Schneemann, regarding the matter of Red China threatening to invade Taiwan? You say the US probably has the same plans?? There's no comparison here whatsoever. The situ is that Red China with it's billions of a population is growling at Taiwan/Matsu/Quemoy, etc with 15,000,000. Why would America want to draw up a scenario for invading a place like Red China? Too silly for words.
Sorry, I shouldn't have said it like this.
I guess US military strategists have some theoretical plans what to do if they get in a military conflict (similar to the cold war) with China - though invasion of Beijing is unlikely a part of any reasonable US plan.
Announcing such things in public (which Chinese politicians have done, according to BernG's quote) is of course something different, and can be seen as an offensive action. BernG's quote was from a general, not a politician..
While there may be plots like this, I think both american and chinese politicians will try not to run in a stupid cold-war like conflict like this, and anyone in the US, China or the rest of the world can only hope that this won't happen.
Ok, but now I leave speculations like this to those of you who are better informed.
Wednesday, 22. February 2006, 17:33:10
Some friends who just came back from a two week trip that included stops at the Great Wall and the Forbidden City indicate it is a very dirty country. Dust and dirt and crap all over. Lots of cleaning going on all the time.
Comes as a consequence of burning coal in houses and such. Quasi Victorian and Dickensonian in its griminess from what I understand.
Thursday, 23. February 2006, 00:54:36
Red China is still a dangerous menace not just to Taiwan but economically, militarily and politically, to the world. I look forward to the day the regime on mainland China collapses. At that point my picture of the late Chiang Kai-Shek (whom I once wrote to) will go on the wall. At least here I can put up what I want ...'cause it's Scotland, not America or Commy China.......
Thursday, 23. February 2006, 09:37:46 (edited)
google.com image search for tiananmen google com tianmen.png
google.cn image search for tiananmen google china tianmen.png
Images added so that our friends in China can actually see the difference without resorting to using services like Tor
Thursday, 23. February 2006, 10:13:39
Originally posted by rjhowie:
I can understand the affinity of two people with boats, your's as an Irishman with a boat (a Scot) and his as a Chinaman with a boat who used it to sail to Taiwan, where he slaughtered thousands of Taiwanese. The unholy alliance of Clan MacMillan and Clan Chiang. We all make pacts with devils of our own choosing.Red China is still a dangerous menace not just to Taiwan but economically, militarily and politically, to the world. I look forward to the day the regime on mainland China collapses. At that point my picture of the late Chiang Kai-Shek (whom I once wrote to) will go on the wall. At least here I can put up what I want ...'cause it's Scotland, not America or Commy China.......
Thursday, 23. February 2006, 14:51:58
Tiananmen activist 'mentally ill'
Yu Dongyue threw paint at this portrait of Mao
A Chinese man jailed over the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests has been released from jail but is severely mentally ill, his family has said.
Yu Dongyue was sentenced to 20 years in jail for throwing paint at a portrait of China's former leader Mao Zedong.
He was freed on Wednesday, after 17 years in prison, but family members said he did not recognise them and spoke unintelligibly.
Human rights groups have alleged Yu was tortured by guards in prison.
His father, Yu Yingkui, said the family would now try to find ways to treat his mental problems.
Yu, a journalist and critic for a Hunan newspaper, was one of three men arrested for throwing paint at the Mao portrait in May 1989, at the height of the Tiananmen Square pro-democracy protests.
The three were later jailed for "counter-revolutionary destruction and counter-revolutionary incitement".
One of the three, Lu Decheng, was released in 1998, and later visited Yu in prison.
Lu told Radio Free Asia in 2004 that his friend was "barely recognisable".
"He had a big scar on the right side of his head. A fellow prisoner said Yu had been tied to a electricity pole and left out in the hot sun for several days. He was also kept in solitary confinement for two years and that was what broke him," Lu said.
Chinese police and troops killed hundreds of unarmed demonstrators when they broke up the Tiananmen Square protests on 4 June 1989.
John Kamm, a US campaigner who had called for Yu's release, said he knew of 70 other prisoners jailed for the Tiananmen protests, although many were convicted on criminal damage rather than political charges.
China outlawed torture in 1996. But a UN rapporteur who visited China last year, Manfred Nowak, said it remained widely in use across the country.
Torture methods cited in a statement at the end of his visit included use of electric shock batons, cigarette burns, and submersion in pits of water or sewage.
Thursday, 23. February 2006, 22:23:45
The government that had control over mainland China when the United Nations was formed (the one that took over after the Qing dynasty) is called the Republic of China. Taiwan and Penghu are islands that are currently within the control of the RoC. The current government that has control over mainland China is called the People's Republic of China.
After the second world war, Japan had to relinquish control of Taiwan back to *A* Chinese government. At the time when these discussions were taking place, there was an internal struggle between the RoC and the PRC for control over mainland China. When the Treaty of San Francisco was signed, wherein Japan stated that they relinquish control of Taiwan, neither the RoC nor the PRC were invited because of the internal strife. Later, Japan signed a treaty with the RoC, the Treaty of Taipei, in which Japan once again stated that it relinquished control. However, both treaties were relatively ambiguous as to which government Japan relinquished control of Taiwan to.
Later, the PRC drove the RoC out of mainland China and took the seat at the United Nations representing the domain of China. The PRC argue that since the PRC succeeded the RoC as the government of the domain of China, the PRC has rights to all the land that the RoC had control over. However, since Japan signed the Treaty of Taipei with RoC, and the RoC is still an existing governing body, independance supporters argue that PRC did not succeed the RoC. Rather, they argue that the RoC just lost the struggle for control over mainland China, and still controls Taiwan. In another bizarre twist, Japan later declared the Treaty of Taipei obsolete and rescinded the treaty. The legality of that move has been questioned, however.
RIGHT NOW, the RoC and PRC are two different governments. The question is whether the RoC is an obsolete government, and whether the PRC actually succeeded the RoC, thereby gaining control over all of the land that the RoC controlled (the entirety of the domain of China, including mainland China, Taiwan, and all the surrounding islands). Since the RoC is still an active government and is acknowledged not only by international bodies, but also by the citizens of Taiwan (as shown by their 82.7% voter turnout in the 2000 Presidential elections), I don't think the RoC should be considered obsolete. I believe that the RoC is still an active government, seperate from the PRC. Whether or not there is a reunification movement, the people of Taiwan recognize the RoC as the government right now. If they should vote a pro-reunification group into government, then that would be an issue that is dealt with later.
Again, international bodies and Taiwanese citizens recognize the RoC as being a legitimate government. So the RoC should not be considered obsolete, and it should remain in control of Taiwan. At least for the time being.
Friday, 24. February 2006, 03:26:14
As it happens, I knew all that and I consider the ROC to be a legitimate government of the Free part of China -Taiwan, Quemoy, Matsu, etc.....
Yep, Jaybro, certainly right about devils. You should be well versed, your country keeps putting them in electing them to power......
Friday, 24. February 2006, 18:50:15
Originally posted by Kingzog:
i quite agree. Noone in this thread has proposed undertaking regime change in Beijing. The focus has mostly been on what to do if the Peoples Republic of China were to threaten to invade Taiwan - dont know if you have any views on that.
Just, was making a statement before. My knowledge of china & taiwan are not good.
Saturday, 25. February 2006, 05:58:52
As for Taiwan, keep the flag with the sun on it flying and don't be be bullied by the doctatorship across the straits. Yaboo to the hammer and sickle - and the jackboots!
Saturday, 25. February 2006, 10:48:04
Originally posted by rjhowie:
Could I just say that I dont accept that comparison.Ho, ho, Jaybro. No-one in Germany pre-1945 was to blame either! Half the US put in the present admin ...
Saturday, 25. February 2006, 19:40:51
Originally posted by Kingzog:
Originally posted by rjhowie:
Could I just say that I dont accept that comparison.Ho, ho, Jaybro. No-one in Germany pre-1945 was to blame either! Half the US put in the present admin ...
You certainly can, but don't expect the Raving Scot to take notice. It comes from too much haggis and windy kilts.
Women love him, though...just ask him!
I was there helping defend the straits when he was playing pranks in school and sucking his thumb.
Sunday, 26. February 2006, 03:22:05
A-ha, Kingzog reflects on my post German - US comparison. Maybe a little vague and seemingly out of context however it shows that the Germans could be fooled and manipulated as a whole nation. No-one was ever a stalwart of the regime after the war! In the US we have half of that big country supporting an administration that is "aff it's heid" and making America a universally badly regarded nation round the world. You then have to ask yourself how an equally educated country can be fooled into so many supporting a regime in Washington DC that has half the population fooled. Goebells would have enjoyed the modern spectacle of fooling all the people all of the time. Our poor wee Jaybro having exiled himself to the wilds of Florida greets "Ah'm no wan o' them" so he does he explain about 50% of the population are suffering from a mass malaise then?? Dearie me........
Sunday, 26. February 2006, 08:48:31
Originally posted by rjhowie:
Our poor wee Jaybro having exiled himself to the wilds of Florida greets "Ah'm no wan o' them" so he does he explain about 50% of the population are suffering from a mass malaise then?? Dearie me........
It's a tough one to explain, but then Blair............
Sunday, 26. February 2006, 23:53:32
Serafins:
Ethnicity is not important when considering a nation's sovereignty. The majority in the populations of Canada, the United States, and Australia are of British descent. Does that mean Canada, USA, and Australia should all be considered part of the Gwok-Ga of Great Britain? It is my understanding that this is not the case.
Physical geography is also not important when considering a nation's sovereignty, or else countries like Switzerland or Austria should be split up and annexed into its neighbouring countries according to ethnic descent.
Politically, everyone can agree that there are two seperate governments that are presiding over the mainland and Taiwan.
At the end of the day, by most international standards, the RoC and PRC are two seperate entities. And so they should be treated as such.
Monday, 27. February 2006, 01:13:15
Originally posted by SpeedyPhoenix:
think that something needs to be done about China. As a Chinese Canadian, I've had the benefit of growing up in a free society where I get (most) facts through a clean lens. However, I hold very little hope that something will be done. The Chinese are used to the oppression, and would rather live through a stable oppression than a chaotic democracy (spot some parallels with Iraq?). There is very little that can be done in the immediate future. And less so, now that North American companies are feeding the corrupt communist government with so much money.
Let's invade china. Now we need a good reason! Errm.....is there something(product) in china we want? Do they have oil by any chance! (LOL)
Monday, 27. February 2006, 13:31:00
China's goal is to catch up and overtake the Western nations. And they see their only way by being extremely capitalistic. In my eyes, China is a capitalist dictatorship.
Monday, 27. February 2006, 13:40:28 (edited)
Hmmmm. independent country..
But some people thought (especially during my trip to Germany last month, people thought Singapore is part of China
2.In your eyes , Taiwan is one independent country or a part of china?
Taiwan - independent country too
Anyway how many people out there knows where is Singapore....?
Monday, 27. February 2006, 16:21:39
Originally posted by Mescalero:
Form what I've read, most people here consider China a communist country, I do not. I think it's the most capitalist country in the wold.
Originally posted by Mescalero:
In my eyes, China is a capitalist dictatorship.
Well, the revolution called itself communist. But they needed a kind of dictatorship (one-party state) to get it running. Now they dropped the communist idea, but keep the dictatorship. Wise deal
Showing topic replies 1 - 50 of 245.
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