The Way of Inquiry - The First Discourse

Not my first discourse, I hasten to add, but the Buddha's first discourse.

That seems like an appropriate place to start. If you are reading this thread then I assume that you wish to know more about the teaching of the Buddha. I will be do my best to reply to any questions that you may have, as long as they are respectful and sincere.

Preamble

The bodhisatta, Prince Siddhattha Gotama, renounced his palace at the age of 29 after seeing four signs: an old man, a sick man, a dead man, and a monk. Seeing that all living beings were trapped by old age, sickness, and death, he resolved to find an escape from this predicament. His noble quest began with the practice of self-mortification because it was believed at the time to be the way to liberation. He practised with five other ascetics as his companions. After six years of strenuous austerities, he realised that this was not the right path, and resumed taking adequate food and rest. Because of this, his five companions thought he had given up the quest, so they left him.

After regaining his strength and health the bodhisatta meditated the whole night and discovered the path leading to enlightnement. By the morning he had eradicated all craving and ignorance, and he gained Buddhahood with the rising of the dawn. Reflecting on the Dhamma that he had realised, he was at first disinclined to teach it, as it went against the current of human desires, and was difficult to understand. Nevertheless, he reasoned that some "with little dust in their eyes" would understand it, so he resolved to teach it.

Realising that his two former meditation teachers had already passed away, he went to Saranath to teach it to the five ascetics who had been his companions in the quest for liberation. When he told them that he had found liberation, at first they did not believe him, because they thought he had given up the path of striving. However, by reminding them of his lifelong honesty, he won them around and they agreed to listen to him. So he gave his first discourse, which is called the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta - the setting in motion of the wheel of the truth.

This first discourse deals with the Middle Way, and the Four Noble Truths including the Eightfold Noble Path. It is very concise. By the end of the discourse only one of the five ascetics, Kondañña, understood it properly and realised nibbana, the other four had to practise meditation as instructed by the Buddha for some time before realising nibbana. Because he was so quick to understand this concise discourse, Kondañña became known as "Kondañña the Wise."

The Middle Way

The Buddha began by stating that the way to liberation was the middle way, avoiding the two extremes of sensual indulgence and self-mortification. This middle way comprised eight factors: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration.

He didn't explain it in detail, he just stated it in brief.

The Four Noble Truths

Then he stated the Four Noble Truths that he had realised:

1. The truth of suffering (dukkha): birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, association with the unloved is suffering, separation from the loved is suffering, not getting what one wants is suffering, in brief the five aggregates of attachment are suffering.

2. The truth of the cause of suffering is the craving that causes repeated becoming, and takes delight now here now there, namely sensual craving, craving for existence, and craving for non-existence.

3. The truth of the cessation of suffering is the complete cessation and abandonment of this craving, and liberation from it without any remainder.

4. The truth of the way to attain the end of suffering, which is the noble eightfold path: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration.

That, very briefly, is the essence of the first discourse. The Buddha went on to explain that until he had thoroughly realised these four noble truths he did not claim to be fully enlightened. Merely knowing these four truths intellectually is not enough, we have to thoroughly understand them to gain liberation.

Let us see where this discussion leads us, but let's hope we can keep more or less to discussion of the four noble truths and the eightfold noble path. I will not answer unrelated questions yet, but will bear them in mind.

Pesala-

Very enlightening. Was wondering, did you convert to Buddhism from another religion, if so, what did you find compelling about the religion that made you convert, if that is the case (Hope this is not too personal, if so, please ignore). Secondly, I notice a lot of the words used in Buddhism come from Sanskrit, being that Buddhism is a carve out from the Hindu religion (in certain respects), could you in the future give the english translation for the sanskrit words - would appreciate it.

Need to read in more detail and ponder a bit more on what you have written, before I can post anything remotely intelligent to start a discussion of any kind......

Non-attachment leads to the end of suffering? Or is that too severe an interpretation?
I'm aware that the message has barely begun so feel free to ignore this if it's irrelevant at this stage.

Ketlan

Pali and Sanskrit

Please excuse me if I sometimes use Pali words, or other jargon inadvertently. I try not to, but these words are now part of my vocabulary. Pali is the language of the Buddhist texts, and is closely related to Sanskrit. The teaching of the Buddha was not derived from Hinduism at all, but was solely based on the Buddha's own enlightenment and personal realisation of truth. He put an end to any preconceived notions he might have had about the truth due to his upbringing, when he gained enlightenment.

Nibbana in Pali is nirvana in Sanskrit. This is the third noble truth, which is the cessation of suffering, and the goal of Buddhism.

Sometimes we should use the Pali word as it is more accurate than any English translation. Dukkha, for example, means suffering, pain, disappointment, grief, despair, etc. However, it has a much wider meaning. Unsatisfactoriness, discontent, angst, imperfection, stress, are all various flavours of dukkha.

When you are successful and happy, it is rather ridiculous to say that you are suffering, but you are not free from dukkha, because these conditions of happiness and success are unstable and sure to decay, therefore they are not free from danger. Getting what you want is happiness, anxiety over not getting it or losing it is suffering, so happiness is also dukkha.

People often ask me what my religion was before I became a Buddhist. Just for fun I say that I was a hedonist, which is closest to the truth. I had no faith or interest in religion at all, like many young people.

I don't like to say that I converted to Buddhism, as it didn't happen overnight. I gradually came to understand and accept the universal truth of suffering. Life is difficult, puzzling, and pointless. We are born naked, wet, and hungry; and then things start to get worse. It is this experience of suffering that leads to the arising of faith in Buddhism. If there is suffering, there must be a cause for it. If we can eradicate the cause, we can eradicate the effect.

I hope that helps.

Non-attachment leads to the end of suffering. Right. The more strongly we are attached to anything, the more we must suffer. People suffer far more because of attachment to their views than for any other reason. It is very difficult to eradicate attachment to views, that is why the Buddha is so admirable.

Re: Pali and Sanskrit

Originally posted by Pesala
Non-attachment leads to the end of suffering. Right. The more strongly we are attached to anything, the more we must suffer. People suffer far more because of attachment to their views than for any other reason. It is very difficult to eradicate attachment to views, that is why the Buddha is so admirable.

Then Seekers life must be living hell

... could ... not ... resist ...

The Importance of Being Right

If you permit me to digress somewhat, I will tell you a lovely Zen story.

Two young monks were arguing: the first said, "It is essential to believe in rebirth. It is a basic Buddhist doctrine." The second said, "It doesn't matter. Enlightenment can only be gained in the present moment." Neither could convince the other, so they agreed to ask the abbot.

The first monk went in and asked if it was vital to believe in rebirth. The abbot said, "Yes, you are right." He came out smirking.

The second monk went in and asked if enlightenment could only be attained in the present moment, who knows about the next life?" The abbot said, "Yes, you are right."

When he came out, the two young monks argued again. Then they went in to the abbot together, and both told him, "You said I was right. We can't both be right." The abbot thought for a while, and then said, "Yes, you are right."

Logical but not a koan?

A question - do you intend to disuss the Four Noble Truths separately?

Actually, a thousand questions, but now is not the time.

Ketlan

No, not a Koan, just an anecdote to illustrate the nature of attachment to views.

I will probably discuss all of the four truths at some stage. We already had a little on the first three. The fourth one needs more thorough treatment later.

Is there any evidence that any of this is true? Apart from in our own minds?

Hmm, the first one is evidently true from everyday evidence. Not too sure about evidence for the other 3.

What, you mean some things are suffering and some are not?

Yes, sickness is suffering, etc.

All things are mind-made

"Is there any evidence that any of this is true? Apart from in our own minds?"

The first verse of the Dhammapada says:

"The mind is the forerunner, mind is chief, all things are mind-made, if one speaks or acts with an impure mind, suffering follows as the wheel follows the hoof of the ox."

So yes, suffering is created in our own minds, due to the way that we react, to how we perceive things; and that mental attitude is of our own making.

"Not too sure about evidence for the other 3."

If you want something it means you lack something, you feel unfulfilled, which is suffering isn't it? Say you become dissatisfied with your existing PC. How did that happen? Probably you heard your friend going on about the merits of his new one, or you read a magazine review. So you begin to see all the faults of your existing PC, and long for a new one, which is craving. That is the cause of suffering, isn't it? Before you heard about the new PC, you were content, now you are not To get the new one you have to find the money from somewhere, which is more suffering.

On the other hand, if you think wisely, you will realise that your present PC is just fine for another year or two yet. You abandon your desire for a new one. That is the cessation of craving, which also means the cessation of suffering. Because you are content with your current PC, you do not have to spend money on a new one, and do not feel dissatisfied. You remember the one you had before this, which was even slower. So you are happy.

This kind of thinking is called right thought: renunciation of desire is one kind of right thought. The mental effort required to remove desire is right effort. The fourth noble truth of the path is the method of moral and mental discipline that leads to the abandonment of desire, and hence to the cessation of suffering. It works every time, but usually we believe that fulfilling desire will leads to happiness, so we follow desire, and so get more suffering.

Yes, however, what if your craving comes from a practile need. To you the example of the PC, earlier tonight my had an aweful problem where if I clicked on on the My Computer section in Windows Explorer it froze up. I was able to correct the problem, after much use of profanity. However, suppose I didn't know how to fix it and instead had to buy a new one. My craving would be that I would need the new PC to work in order to live, not just feeling unfullfilled. I'm probably getting it all mixed up though. :/

Need and Greed

It is not always easy to tell the difference.

As I am a monk, do I need a PC at all? Is it not just desire and greed? Well no, it is not. I want to promote understanding, tolerance, compassion, self-discipline, morality. These are good things. Since I live in the West, a PC helps me to do this. Maybe in Asia it would be unnecessary, but even there, monks are using PCs for Buddhist Publications, etc. If I was fully intent on pracising meditation to realise nibbana, I wouldn't need a PC, but I want to help more people get established on the Path of meditation.

If you have kids, you have a duty to support them, and that duty doesn't stop at the bare necessities of life. You don't have to give them everything they ask for though, even if you have loads of money, you should teach them the value of contentment by setting a good example. You also have a duty to your parents, if they need any kind of help you must give it.

Then there is the desire for knowledge and skill. If you are wise, you will spend at least some time studying to improve your career prospects. If you don't do that you may find yourself redundant. Desire for knowledge is not greed, it is usually wholesome, unless it is cunning, like trying to hack into computers to gain industrial secrets.

Finally, there is desire for wisdom. Wanting to make sense of this thing called a human life. That desire leads to the end of greed.

So according to Buddhist teachings then, simply having nice things is okay, but suffering is what arises out of a lack of contentment with what you have? I think I get that.

What about things that make you happy, but don't cause unhappiness by their absence? For example, I'm a big lover of chocolate, and I like to always have some in the house. However, if I want some and there isn't any then it doesn't bother me, but if I'm in a chocolate mood and have got some decent choccy handy, it's really nice. Would Buddhist ideals, therefore, be pro keeping a reasonable chocolate supply handy, or against it? I'm not convinced that this sort of thing amounts to a 'craving' as such.

Sorry if this is all a bit trivial, it's just the first such example that came to mind!

On the other hand, eating the chocolate can cause you to get fat and cause unhappiness.

The mind is the forerunner, mind is chief, all things are mind-made, if one speaks or acts with an impure mind, suffering follows as the wheel follows the hoof of the ox.

Some people are very happy with a house of 3 rooms but others are very unhappy with the same house. I can understand suffering often comes from how we perceive things. But what about physical pain? A friend of mine has been suffering from rheumatism for many years. Her pain is real, not mind-made. I'd like to know what Buddha said about it, if any.

Pesala,
It's very nice to be able to follow Buddha's journey like this. I hope you will not go too fast.

The Four Foods

All conditioned phenomena arise due to one of four causes. These are known as the four foods, or four nutriments:

1. Physical food.
2. Climate.
3. Mind or consciousness.
4. Kamma (including, but not confined to kamma in past lives).

Physical food is essential for life and strength. Good healthy food eaten in moderation gives us health, beauty, long-life, and strength. Too much rich food can cause poor health, while insufficient or poor quality food can also cause disease.

Climate is another factor. In cold climates we need heating, in hot climates we need air-conditioning. Extremes of cold and heat can also cause diseases or death.

Mind or consciousness is important too. Too much anger, lust, fear, or worry is not good for one's well-being. How we stimulate the mind affects our happiness. We need wisdom to avoid stimulating the mind in unskilful ways.

Then there is kamma. We do not know what we did in the past, and can do nothing about it now. It will give its result when the conditions are ripe, and if it was powerful bad kamma, we will have to suffer. If we are enjoying good results, we can be happy, but we must plant good seeds for the future while enjoying the fruits of the past.

Pain and disease comes from having a body. We have to accept it the way it is. When we were young, we had lots of energy and recovered quickly from diseases, as we get older the body decays and finally perishes. The Buddha's chief supporter, Anathapindika, was in agony on his death-bed, even though he had done heaps of powerful wholesome kamma during his lifettime. However, when Venerable Sariputta taught him the method of insight meditation he was able to transcend the pain and attained bliss as he lay dying.

Actually all pain is mental, not physical. If you are unconscious, you cannot feel any pain. When we talk about physical pain, we mean the unpleasant feeling that arises through physical contact. Mental pain is the unpleasant feeling arising through mental contact.

If one meditates seriously, it is possible to separate mind and matter and observe even severe physical pain and discomfort with equanimity. It is not easy to sit in meditation at first. The beginner may claim to be in agony after only twenty minutes of sitting still, whereas an experienced meditator can sit still for two hours or more without difficulty. It is not that they have no pain, but they do not magnify it with fear and aversion. When mindfulness and concentration are strong enough, pain is not a problem.

Ardent meditators with strong faith in the Dhamma have overcome serious medical conditions such as cancer, eczema, tuberculosis, gall stones, etc. Even the average person can soon learn to overcome mild ailments such as colds, headaches, high blood-pressure, etc., and minor mental disorders such as stuttering, acute anxiety, compulsive obsessions, phobias, and depression.

We do not claim that meditation is a cure for all ills. Medication and therapy should also be used, but the concentrated mind has powerful healing qualities.

Severe mental disorders cannot usually be overcome, because the unfortunate victim's mind is just too weak and distracted.

So what do you do about those severe mental disorders? Maybe they can take meditation in small doses?

Medtation can cause problems

Because patients with severe mental disorders have no control over their minds, meditation can be harmful for them.

Insight meditation can uncover painful memories that have been heavily repressed. If this is not done carefully, it can make matters worse. Sometimes, meditators can go quite mad. On most intensive meditation courses that I have attended, there is usually at least one person who runs away after the first few days, and a few more who book, but suddeny fall sick and so don't turn up.

Psychiatric patients need professional therapy to make their minds somewhat stable before they can make spiritual progress. Some Dhamma teachers have a natural gift to help them, but the best that most of us can do is practise loving-kindness and equanimity.

In my experience, teaching meditation to perfectly sane and normal people is quite difficult enough. I find that those with clinical depression are beyond help - they are so lacking in self-esteem that they just cannot work properly. Other teachers may be able to help such people, but I cannot.

I'm sure that I'm going to sound stupid, but...

I've been thinking about this and I don't really know that I would want to let go of my suffering. The suffering that I have experienced is as equally important to me as the joy I have known. The equal extremes of joy and suffering are the essence of my being. To not know one would be to never truly know the other. To be niethr hot nor cold, but only lukewarm seems to me to be an empty, unrewarding path.

Suffering is very useful stuff. We should be careful not to fall into the trap of running away from suffering, any fool can do that. We have to face up to suffering and learn from it. No pain no gain. No manure, no flowers.

Liberation from suffering is something quite different to just avoiding it. However, if you know that a certain course of action will lead to suffering and grief, is it not wiser to avoid it?

Again, at the risk of sounding foolish...

The joy of life eventually leads to suffering and grief. I know that to live is to suffer, thus to avoid that which I know will lead to suffering would be to avoid living life.

Quote from Pesla

Because patients with severe mental disorders have no control over their minds, meditation can be harmful for them.

That was in response to my question about maybe the severely mentally ill can take some doseages of medition to recover. This answer sort of goes along with the answer you gave some students at document located at http://www.re.leonet.co.uk/buddhistquestionsbhikkhu.doc
At least I believe it to be you, so correct me if I'm mistaken

Is the world in balance at the moment?
It is round, so I suppose it must be. The Chinese have a theory about keeping Yin and Yang in balance to maintain harmony and good health. ? The world is only a reflection of your own mind. Sort of like WYSIWYG. If your mind is in balance then the world is as it is. If your mind is in conflict then the world is out of balance. Therefore, try to meditate seriously and get your mind in balance. Then there won't be any suffering at all

The World

The Buddha equated the body and mind with the world. "Within this fathom long body, is the arising of the world, the cessation of the world, and the way leading to the cessation of the world."

Kind people perceive the world as loving and caring. They find it hard to see evil in anybody. The paranoid think that everyone is out to get them.

Compared to the enlightened ones, all ordinary people are a bit insane, that is they have little or no control over their minds. If you have ever tried to meditate you will know what I am talking about. The mind is very unruly unless it is well trained through meditation. If you try to keep the mind focussed just on the breathing or other simple bodily processes for long periods it will soon start to struggle and complain.

Enlightenment meaning control over your mind and cravings?

Actually all pain is mental, not physical. If you are unconscious, you cannot feel any pain.

I'm conquered. And also reminded that pain is a quite subjective thing. Therefore, it's very difficult to explain about my headache to a doctor.

I read that negative feelings such as anger or worry actually produce poisonous substances in our body. So maybe we can prevent certain kinds of illness by knowing to control our mind if not cure serious diseases.

BTW, Buddhist Questions that Sanguinemoon posted in the first page answered to couple of my basic questions.

I read that negative feelings such as anger or worry actually produce poisonous substances in our body

You might be right, I haven't seen that. But There are conditions that are caused or made worse by mental pain, such as ulcers, high blood pressure, etc.

The Healthiest Bhikkhu

There was one bhikkhu who never suffered from any disease throughout his life. His name was Bakkula. Even the Buddha was sick on several occasions, and he did take medicine, or special food. I mentioned the four producers before. Some diseases are produced as a result of previous kamma.

Bakkula was an Arahant, and a forest dwelling monk who ate only once a day. He never slept under a roof (presumambly he sheltered in caves or under trees). had no novice attend on him, and lived to the ripe age of 160.

Lots of meditation, in conjunction with a healthy diet, plenty of fresh air and exercise, and a career that is relatively free from stress, will all help to ensure a long and healthy life. Trouble is, we still like chocolate, sometimes get lazy, and occasionally forget to mediate, don't we? So, we cannot all be like Bakkula. Sometimes we need a bit of help from the doctor, or just a bit of sympathy from a friend. Nothing unusual about that.

We have discussed at some length about suffering and its cause, which is the first two noble truths. Let us go on now to discuss nibbāna and the way that leads towards it.

A reminder from my first post:

"There is, monks, the unborn, unbecome, uncreated, and unconditioned. If there were not the unborn, unbecome, uncreated, and uncondtioned, it would not be possible to point out the born, become, created, and conditioned. Because, monks, there is the unborn, unbecome, unmade, and unconditioned, therefore the refuge from the born, become, created, and conditioned can be pointed out." (Udāna)

Nibbana is not really a place, such as the Christian heaven but an end to suffering right? Just to make sure I understand what that even is first.

Right. Buddhists believe in various heavens too, which are the good results of wholesome deeds of kindness, charity, and reverence, but they are different to nibbana. Being conditioned, they are impermanent. One may live there for a very, very long time, but it is not the end of suffering.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by conditioned?

Also a bit of a strange question. Some of your the spellings you use are a bit different from what I'm used to. For example 'nibbana' for Nirvana and 'kamma' for Karma? Is one spelling more correct or is American vs British spelling?

Nibbāna in Pāli = Nirvāna in Sanskrit
Kamma in Pāli = Karma in Sanskrit
Sutta in Pāli = Sutra in Sanskrit
Bodhisatta = bodhisattva


Pāli is the language of the Theravāda school.
Sanskrit is used by Mahāyāna schools

By following the 8 fold path, you will achieve nibbana?

Right understanding
Right Purpose
Right Speech
Right Conduct
Right Vocation
Right effort
Right Alertness
Right Concentration

And if so how do you know that what do is right? For example, everybody I know will say the wrong thing from time to time.

How do you know what is right?

Good question. Short answer is, you don't, at least not to begin with. The Pali words for the eight factors of the noble path all begin with sammā- e.g. sammāditthi (right view), sammāsankappo (right thought). However, sammā doesn't just mean right.

How do we usually translate "Sammāsambuddho?" You never see it translated as the Rightly Enlightened Buddha, do you? What you see is the Fully or Perfectly Enlightened Buddha.

So our view has to be gradually straightened and corrected until it is not just right, but perfect and without any blemish. This action of straightening our views is one of the ten wholesome deeds.

Most people, including many so-called Buddhists, have more wrong views than right ones. When we gain sincere and well-placed confidence in the enlightenment of the Buddha, we get rid of the gross forms of wrong views such as those denying the law of cause and effect, and gain mundane right view, but we have not attained nibbāna yet. Self-view is one kind of serious wrong view that must be eliminated before we can realise nibbāna.

Self-view is the belief in a permanent self, soul, person, or being who inhabits the body, and motivates it. "I think, therefore I am. I think?" "No you're not, you're magnetic ink. The folded sheets of paper clatter through the great computer ..."

Before I became a Buddhist, I used to listen to the Moody Blues Greatest Hits album, from which these lyrics come. The very rapid, and almost incessant mental process perpetuates the illusion of a permanent self or person. That is why most people find it very difficult to be silent, and to do nothing.

When we meditate, the mind gradually becomes still, then we can see this profound truth of emptiness, or egolessness, and gain a deeper realisation of right view. When the mind is truly empty of self — selfishness, egoism, pride, arrogance, conceit — then you will clearly discern right from wrong.

The Buddha never tried to convert anybody to his viewpoint, because he didn't have one. He knew what was right, and helped others to see it too. When you see the truth clearly for yourself you will gain confidence in the Buddha. If I insult your intelligence by trying to tell you what to believe, why should you listen to me?

Because, monks, there is the unborn, unbecome, unmade, and unconditioned, therefore the refuge from the born, become, created, and conditioned can be pointed out.

When we are born into this world, we are give a body that only lasts for a limited amount of time. Is this what 'conditioned' means? And when we die, we return to something shapeless but therefore eternal? Is this 'something' close to 'emptiness' that Buddhists try to know through medidations?

And this might be a very stupid question, but what is the difference between born, become and created?

The Noble Eightfold Path

The Buddha's way is the right method for anyone to gain clarity and insight knowledge for himself or herself. It is not a dogma or a philosophical hypothesis, but a practical method by which one can realise the truth for oneself. It comprises three trainings:

Training in Morality (Sīla)

Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood

Training in Concentration (Samādhi)

Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Concentration

Training in Wisdom (Paññā)

Right View
Right Thought

These three trainings and eight path factors should be cultivated in parallel, not in series. They support one another like the three legs of a tripod. If your view is wrong, you won't be able to observe morality properly, if you don't observe morality properly, you won't be able to gain concentration, and if you cannot gain concentration, you won't be able to see things clearly to gain wisdom.

What's the difference between right view and right thought? Right view means percieving the world correctly through wisdom and intelligence? Thought is the judgement based on that view?

If I'm right, I certain can see where one is not possible without the other

Yes, all factors of the path are mutually dependent. Right view means to see things as they really are, i.e. impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not-self. When your view is right you will have right thoughts: thoughts of renunciation, compassion, and loving-kindness.

However, if you take transient phenomena to be permanent, desirable, and as a person, being, or self or as belonging to a person, being, or self, you will have wrong thoughts of attachment, “This is mine,” or aversion, “I hate this” or delusion, “This is subject to my control.”

According to this site There's actually to kinds of Noble 8 fold path, the mundane and supramundane, but I guess that's skipping too far ahead

Even a journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.

The ordinary, unenlightened person has to begin with the mundane path. The three aspects of the path are called trainings: training in morality, concentration, and wisdom. By undertaking moral precepts, and by taking up the practice of meditation, we gain concentration and mental purity, which allows insight to arise. When this insight develops to the critical stage, the power of deep insight propels the meditator rapidly towards the supramundane path, and they attain nibbana.

After that, the Stream-winner must develop concentration and wisdom further to attain the higher paths of once-returning, non-returning, and arahantship, but they are already accomplished in morality. Their progress is irreversible, and it is only a matter of time and effort before they become perfect in concentration. The non-returner is perfect in morality and concentration, but still has some work to do to attain the perfect wisdom of the arahant.

An arahant is a person that has achieved Nibbana?

Even the Stream-winner has attained nibbāna, but they are not yet free from suffering and rebirth, as they still have lust, anger, conceit, pride, attachment to existence, etc. The once-returners and non-returners, are more pure-hearted still, and the non-returner only ever reborn in celestial realms, where they attain arahantship. The term “non-returner” means that they are not born again in the human realm.

At the final stage, the Arahant destroys all mental defilements, and puts an end to kamma. They live out the remainder of their life-span, and are not reborn again anywhere at all. They do not go anywhere, as a flame that ceases to burn does not go anywhere but just goes out, the arahants cease to burn with greed, hatred, and delusion.

Difficult Answers

It is beginning to look like I am talking to myself here, but I shall try to revive this discussion after all the flak on other threads caused so much distraction. Maybe Ketlan and others will come to join in this discussion.

I shall try to answer some of the difficult questions about nibbāna, and what happens to the Arahants and Buddhas who have attained final nibbana, after they have died. I shall also try to explain the nature of the forces that keep the unenlightened revolving in the cycle of birth and death, which is called samsāra.

The Holy Quest
After his enlightenment the Buddha uttered the following spontaneous verse:

Through many births I wandered,
Seeking, but not finding, the builder of this house.
Painful is repeated existence.
Oh housebuilder, you are seen now.
You shall build no house again.
All your rafters are broken,
Your ridgepole is shattered.
To dissolution goes my mind.
Achieved is the destruction of craving.
(Dhammapada, verses 153,4)

The Buddha-to-be, or bodhisatta, began his quest for enlightenment at some far distant point in time. He eventually reached a stage of spiritual maturity when there was no turning back, and enlightenment was certain. Ninety-one aeons ago he was reborn as a youth called Sumedha. His multi-millionaire parents died while he was young. He reflected, “They have died taking nothing with them. It is better to give it all away before one dies, then at least I will take that wholesome kamma with me when I die.” Thus he renounced all his fabulous wealth and became a wanderer. Then he met the Buddha Dipankara, who predicted that Sumedha would become a Buddha named Gotama in the distant future.

The bodhisatta continued to seek enlightenment throughout many existences. When his spiritual virtues were fully ripe he was reborn as Siddhartha Gotama, made the final renunciation of his wealth to seek enlightenment, and gained it after six years of struggle.

The simile of the house-builder refers to the house of selfhood, which is built by kamma, and protected by the rafters of mental defilements, held together by the ridge-pole of ignorance. With the destruction of ignorance, the other defilements and craving for existence were destroyed, as he attained to nibbāna.

First, we should understand that nibbāna is not a place or realm of existence like heaven, and the Buddha didn’t ‘enter’ nibbāna, neither when he gained enlightenment, nor when he died. Throughout his life, he could abide in the attainment of nibbāna whenever he wished, and all noble disciples can do this too. Nibbāna just means cessation or letting go.

When you just let go of something, you cease to suffer, there and then. Unenlightened people can experience a ‘mini-nibbāna’ every time they suppress the urge to defend themselves from some perceived attack. When we don’t suppress that urge, the ego rises up and we instigate another cycle of suffering.

If you can undersand that this so-called ego is entirely mind-made, illusory, and has no substance, then you will see that the house is empty. There is no one at home. No soul, no self, no spirit, no person, no me, no you. Just mind and matter arising and passing away, and creating illusions. So where could a Buddha or Arahant go after death? If a fire ceases to burn because the fuel is used up, the flames go out. It makes no sense to ask, “Where did the flame go?” It didn’t go anywhere, it just went out.

However, it is difficult to see this. Usually, the ego does rise up, so we keep on making kamma, which means intentional actions by body, speech, and mind. This is the driving force that accumulates momentum throughout life, and throws us into this or that existence after death. Wholesome kamma leads to happiness, unwholesome kamma leads to misery. When we die, it is just the last conscious moment that determines the arising of the next existence, so it is wise to cultivate good mental habits and to remove bad ones, since we can die at any moment.

Is there a difference between the concepts of reincarnation and rebirth? I see some differences between Buddhist beliefs in reincarnation to those of Hindu vedas, is this correct?

Slightly unrelated, However, was wondering how did Buddhism spread from India to the far East, Was it chiefly during the reign of King Ashoka, and thereafter (around 300BC)??

Re: Difficult Answers

Originally posted by Pesala
It is beginning to look like I am talking to myself here

Not at all, I for one am reading your posts here with a lot of interest, and looking at the number of 'Views' this thread is getting, it's clear that I'm not the only one.

There are two reasons I've not contributed much - Firstly, I'm spending way too much time on these forums at the moment as it is, I've got loads of work on at the moment. Secondly, and most importantly, most of what you've written seems to make a lot of sense and I see no reason to argue, and the rest I need to think about some more, preferably after I have a greater understanding of Buddhism in general. So please, keep posting!

Also, I'm guessing that many other readers are in a similar position to myself, in that we don't really know much about Buddhism right now, so it takes longer before we can formulate and contribute our own thoughts...

No news is good news

Sorry, I don't have any more intelligent questions yet

Rebirth or Reincarnation?

Originally posted by getafix1
Is there a difference between the concepts of reincarnation and rebirth? I see some differences between Buddhist beliefs in reincarnation to those of Hindu vedas, is this correct?

I overlooked this question, otherwise I might have responded sooner. The reality is the same for all of us. Even those who are neither Buddhists, nor Hindus, are reborn, whether they believe it or not. At least they cannot deny that they have been born, can they? So the difference between Rebirth in Buddhism, and Re-incarnation in Hinduism is a matter of concepts. Hindus believe in an immortal soul that is transferred from one existence to the next. Buddhists do not believe in an eternal soul, but they do believe in rebirth. There is no eternal essence that remains unchanged throughout life, and even after death.

How Can Rebirth Take Place if there is no Soul?

A fair question, and an important concept to grasp correctly. It may be easiest to understand with the help of a simile. Take a match and a candle. Light the match. Now hold the candle wick directly over the flame, but not actually touching it. Watch closely what happens. After a few seconds the wick will begin to smoulder, and a flame will ignite. A child might say that the flame jumped from the matchstick to the candle, because that is what seems to happen.

A scientist would describe the process differently. He would perhaps say that due to the heat in the match flame, the paraffin wax in the wick vapourised, reached its ignition temperature, and begin to react with the oxygen in the air. This rapid process of oxidation produced the flame in the candle. Nothing jumped from the matchstick to the candle, but the heat was the cause produced by the oxidation of the wood, that led to the result, which was the oxidation of the paraffin wax and the second flame.

Rebirth is similar to this process. A living being does many volitional activities, which are kamma. This is like the heat. The present human body is like the match-stick, the new foetus, which might be a non-human foetus, is like the candle. When the condtions are right, consciousness arises in the new foetus. No soul is transferred, but there is a causal relationship between the two existences. In the case of rebirth, unlike in the simile, consciousness in one existence must cease before it can arise in the second existence.

Please note that just as the flames may be entirely different colours, sizes, temperatures, etc., in the first fuel and the second fuel, the same is true of the form that life takes before and after rebirth. To give a simple example: a female mouse may be reborn as a male elephant, or a caucasian male may be reborn as an Asian female. It all depends on the mental process that is driven by kamma. One does not always get what one wants, but one always gets what one deserves.

Originally posted by getafix1
Slightly unrelated, However, was wondering how did Buddhism spread from India to the far East, Was it chiefly during the reign of King Ashoka, and thereafter (around 300BC)??

My knowledge of the history of Buddhism is hazy, so please don’t quote me. Asoka sent missions to many foreign lands in about 300 BC. His mission to Sri Lanka was especially successful and well documented. How well Buddhism survived in Afghanistan, Burma, and Bangladesh I am not sure. It may well have spread far beyond the Ganges valley even before Asoka's era. The king of Taxila (now in Kashmir) met the Buddha in Rajagaha, so no doubt Buddhism spread that far after the Buddha's death. I believe that Buddhism spread to China in about 1st Century BC and later to Japan. By then the Mahayana (northern Buddhism) had already separated from the Theravada (southern Buddhism).

There is another, but very similiar explaination here in the extensive article on rebirth.

Life is beyond only a hundred year. Life is full of hope and possibility. In rebirth, death is the beginning of another existence. It is like a torch. When one stick of wood is exhausted, there will be another, one after the other. Each stick may be different in component. Yet, the flame will continue to burn. Rebirth is also like a lamp. The oil may be exhausted. Another lamp can be lighted. One lamp after another, it gives brightness in the darkness of existence. We exist with in the six realms, as Henry or Jack. We may be in heaven or earth. We may have many different forms. Yet, the flame of life is eternal. The lamp of wisdom is endless. Rebirth connects us with the universe. Our existence is also timeless. Rebirth is the meaning of existence. We passed our experience, wisdom and history from one generation to the next. If we cannot hand down our experience, then work has no meanings. If we cannot pass down our culture, history will be very short.

You said their are different heavens in Buddhism, right? So does kamma play into which heaven you go to, or in the rebirth, or both? Another question: Could prayers affect rebirth? The article I mention brings that question up and attempts to answer it, but I don't quite understand the answer they give.