Tuesday, 15. August 2006, 08:15:07
Fear of the unknown
Well, I spend alot of time desperatly thinking about some new topic that would give fruit for thought and always end up scrapping the idea and visiting porn pages, so here's the best I could come up with.Is the "fear of the unknown" a vital part of our basic human instinct and therefore essential for it's survival, or is it an unnecessary burden we carry around that actually furthers us from our forgotten and never reaching enlightenment?
Best regards
Mick.
Friday, 18. August 2006, 06:47:36
As a very quick response, I don't think it's a basic instinct. No exploration would have taken place otherwise. The "unknown" is a lure to discovery. Our instinct is to explore. Fear is learnt behaviour; but the primary instinct is to extend our boundaries. The unknown is what makes life interesting.
Friday, 18. August 2006, 17:56:47
Good point,but animals adapt to new situations (evolution)and react to immediate threats out of necessity not out of curiosity,with no questioning but with a conviction we lack,thus assuring their survival.This primal fear is what keeps them alive.
Antilopes run from their prey,cameleons disguise themselves and cats run up trees.
We seem to look for death at every corner,against all natural tendencies.We smoke,we drink and drive,we don't wear a helmet because it make us look silly and we don't wear a lifejacket because we want to look cool.We kill each other but don't eat each other,we lie,we cheat,we steal and rape.
This exploration and our complete disrespect for all things we used to fear has got the human race into alot of shit.
We are conciously polluting the planet,We buy cars that can reach 240kph,we sell slaves,we build skyscrapers one meter taller than the last one just so we can say that our one is taller.we are over exploiting natural recources perfectly aware of our actions,we disrespect other people,religions, countries and cultures.None of this exploration is beneficial to us and is actually contributing greatly to the destruction of the human race.
While fear keeps us kicking,exploration brings mixed results(true that exploration has also helped in disease cure etc.).
The difference is that to stay alive,which is our most basic instinct,fear would be the most logical option.
The fear of the unknown helps us not exceed our natural limits,leading to a pleasurable existance, while exploration has in no way made our life easier.
I'm not asking you to lie down and die but why look for death before it's due simply to find out what death feels like?
Antilopes run from their prey,cameleons disguise themselves and cats run up trees.
We seem to look for death at every corner,against all natural tendencies.We smoke,we drink and drive,we don't wear a helmet because it make us look silly and we don't wear a lifejacket because we want to look cool.We kill each other but don't eat each other,we lie,we cheat,we steal and rape.
This exploration and our complete disrespect for all things we used to fear has got the human race into alot of shit.
We are conciously polluting the planet,We buy cars that can reach 240kph,we sell slaves,we build skyscrapers one meter taller than the last one just so we can say that our one is taller.we are over exploiting natural recources perfectly aware of our actions,we disrespect other people,religions, countries and cultures.None of this exploration is beneficial to us and is actually contributing greatly to the destruction of the human race.
While fear keeps us kicking,exploration brings mixed results(true that exploration has also helped in disease cure etc.).
The difference is that to stay alive,which is our most basic instinct,fear would be the most logical option.
The fear of the unknown helps us not exceed our natural limits,leading to a pleasurable existance, while exploration has in no way made our life easier.
I'm not asking you to lie down and die but why look for death before it's due simply to find out what death feels like?
Tuesday, 22. August 2006, 18:43:19
Fear is an unnecessary burden. The purest and probably most happiest beings on this earth are babies. Look at a baby--not afraid of anything until we teach it fear. Enlightenment has been reached by those who had no fear---not a coincidence. Hence fear equals self annihilation, self denials, limitations, boundaries. Buddha reached enlightenment after he was no longer afraid. Jesus Christ not even afraid of his own death.
Tuesday, 22. August 2006, 20:05:03
Originally posted by socrates sidekick:
Is the "fear of the unknown" a vital part of our basic human instinct and therefore essential for it's survival
Yes, a survival strategy, not by instinct but experience... babies don't stay babies very long... once burned, felt or observed, they later fear the fire...
Exploration is not necessarily the best long term strategy for survival. Natural resources would last longer without inventing cars, many lives too, as soldiers go to war for energy. Then again, exploration within medicine extend lives... So as a group we are in balance, then...
Well, yes, we are animals, sometimes even worse. Brains invented ways to store, for the future, even next generations. Thus fortune became a factor, worth fighting for... Animals don't have this long term problem... It's scary, what some are doing for money, so fear is a good survival strategy for humans... fear of the unknown, the stuff that could happen... in our fantasy...
Wednesday, 23. August 2006, 10:05:25
Cheeky bastard!!!!I know what you are getting at!! Get back to the other thread!
Best regards
mick
Best regards
mick
Wednesday, 23. August 2006, 13:31:12 (edited)
Originally posted by socrates sidekick:
Cheeky bastard!!!!I know what you are getting at!! Get back to the other thread!
No comments, of course...Next time, please add to your thread... "By invitation, only" or "My thoughts, only"... as not all of us are mindreaders... This is a public forum, after all...
Wednesday, 23. August 2006, 13:36:50
I'm sorry,I was trying to be funny.I thought you were saying something relevent to another one of our discussions on another thread about"events that haven't happened".I must have misunderstood,my apologies.
best regards
mick
best regards
mick
Thursday, 24. August 2006, 19:03:36
I believe this is a very complex issue. However, it's also very interesting so worth spending some time on. I would have to disagree with the notion put forward by Words that fear is learnt behaviour and curiosity is natural. I think both are natural, but on different levels of our psyche and brain. The fear impulse is centered around the brain stem, which is the least evolved - in a Darwinian sense - part of our brain. It's referred to as the reptilian brain as it is essentially not more advanced than that of a reptile. The presence of this part of our brain is part of the huge paradox of it, as its mode of operation is in extreme contrast to the more evolved parts of our brain, the cerebral cortex. That mass of neurons and electricity is extremely advanced and has a virtually unlimited data-processing capacity, enabling what we refer to as the Modern Mind.
So at the bottom of our psyche is this extremely basic stimulus-response, fight-or-flight driven "lump". And you will find that the less evolved the consciousness of a human being is, the more they operate from the reptilian brain. For instance mass murderers, gang members, rapists etc will have their consciousness operating more from their brain stem than more well accustomed people. This means, however harsh it may sound, that some people are essentially reptiles in human bodies. Why do you think the snake in the Garden of Eden is such an appropriate image?
So basically, we have two levels of operation here - we have the cerebral cortext consciosuness that wants to evolve and then we have the reptilian part of the brain that wants to survive, whatever the cost. And you see, the unknown is a sort of death that the reptilian brain cannot handle, so it shuts down, becomes afraid and sends you, modern man or woman, into a state of panic. The interesting part here is that the advanced consciousness enabled by the cerebral cortex takes this current-moment (brain stem consciousness is never in the past or future) primordial emotion and complexifies it, so that we rationalize with extremely complex reasoning why it makes sense to base our future experience on the fear that the brain stem just experienced. So when the brain stem experiences a lot of fear (which it will later not be able to remember) and the cerebral cortex integrates it in the emotionality of the person, you have anxiety, depression etc. The most basic sentient being can be afraid as it takes a high level of development to get to irrational emotions like anxiety and depression.
And see, this is why it is such a victory every time we conquer our fear of the unknown, as what we really do is evolve, conquering our reptilian brain and reclaiming our lost humanity in the process. So the harsh verdict is that a person who doesn't on a conscious and constant level keep confronting the unknown will actually on a very literal level be less human. A lot of the mental disorders in today's society stem from this very fact, every human being is drawn to evolve - as that is the directionality of consciousness itself, but when the brain stem's impulses become too powerful and the reptile takes over, this essential evolution is halted. And the pain of not evolving is the worst a human being can experience - you know, being a reptile ain't all what it's made out to be.
So there you have the inner conflict between the cerebral cortex and the brain stem - and the paradox of the human mind that keeps the drama going. Now that this has been made clear, let me confront the notion put forward by socrates sidekick that "The fear of the unknown helps us not exceed our natural limits,leading to a pleasurable existance, while exploration has in no way made our life easier." I claim, and I'm willing to put my life on the line to defend this notion, that a pleasurable existence is IMPOSSIBLE to attain without confronting the unknown.
So let's look at the downside of exploring the unknown. Yes it's true, our exploration of the unknown has lead to many disconcerting discoveries, but you will find is that the discoveries that we don't like all that much today (guns, atomic bombs etc) were generally invented by a much higher level of consciousness than that which ended up using it. The consciousness that invented the atomic bomb was clearly operating at an extremely complex cognitive level whereas the people we are worried will use them on us someday will primarilly be doing it from their reptilian brain. So feel free to call terrorists snakes, because you will essentially be telling the truth.*
So we have two choices, confront the unknown, death itself and follow the ever evolving train of consciousness - becoming ever more human (and indeed divine) in the process, or turn your back on it, cuddle up in your nice reptilian bed and stay a snake forever.
The choice is yours.
* (FOOTNOTE) However, the issue of terrorism is of course a lot more complex than that as the film V for Vendetta so poignantly points out. The mere fact that we label someone a terrorist doesn't mean that they work from a lower-level consciousness than us. It could in fact be that we have taken the liberty to define right and wrong when no such right had been given us, and that our definitions are so far off the mark, so ... evil ... that those individuals we'd like to label as terrorists are in fact operating at a higher level consciousness than us. In today's world, it seems to almost exclusively not be the case (even though it's hard to imagine someone operating at a lower level of consciousness than the US administration, I know), but in the future, the terrorists may actually be the good guys.
So at the bottom of our psyche is this extremely basic stimulus-response, fight-or-flight driven "lump". And you will find that the less evolved the consciousness of a human being is, the more they operate from the reptilian brain. For instance mass murderers, gang members, rapists etc will have their consciousness operating more from their brain stem than more well accustomed people. This means, however harsh it may sound, that some people are essentially reptiles in human bodies. Why do you think the snake in the Garden of Eden is such an appropriate image?
So basically, we have two levels of operation here - we have the cerebral cortext consciosuness that wants to evolve and then we have the reptilian part of the brain that wants to survive, whatever the cost. And you see, the unknown is a sort of death that the reptilian brain cannot handle, so it shuts down, becomes afraid and sends you, modern man or woman, into a state of panic. The interesting part here is that the advanced consciousness enabled by the cerebral cortex takes this current-moment (brain stem consciousness is never in the past or future) primordial emotion and complexifies it, so that we rationalize with extremely complex reasoning why it makes sense to base our future experience on the fear that the brain stem just experienced. So when the brain stem experiences a lot of fear (which it will later not be able to remember) and the cerebral cortex integrates it in the emotionality of the person, you have anxiety, depression etc. The most basic sentient being can be afraid as it takes a high level of development to get to irrational emotions like anxiety and depression.
And see, this is why it is such a victory every time we conquer our fear of the unknown, as what we really do is evolve, conquering our reptilian brain and reclaiming our lost humanity in the process. So the harsh verdict is that a person who doesn't on a conscious and constant level keep confronting the unknown will actually on a very literal level be less human. A lot of the mental disorders in today's society stem from this very fact, every human being is drawn to evolve - as that is the directionality of consciousness itself, but when the brain stem's impulses become too powerful and the reptile takes over, this essential evolution is halted. And the pain of not evolving is the worst a human being can experience - you know, being a reptile ain't all what it's made out to be.
So there you have the inner conflict between the cerebral cortex and the brain stem - and the paradox of the human mind that keeps the drama going. Now that this has been made clear, let me confront the notion put forward by socrates sidekick that "The fear of the unknown helps us not exceed our natural limits,leading to a pleasurable existance, while exploration has in no way made our life easier." I claim, and I'm willing to put my life on the line to defend this notion, that a pleasurable existence is IMPOSSIBLE to attain without confronting the unknown.
So let's look at the downside of exploring the unknown. Yes it's true, our exploration of the unknown has lead to many disconcerting discoveries, but you will find is that the discoveries that we don't like all that much today (guns, atomic bombs etc) were generally invented by a much higher level of consciousness than that which ended up using it. The consciousness that invented the atomic bomb was clearly operating at an extremely complex cognitive level whereas the people we are worried will use them on us someday will primarilly be doing it from their reptilian brain. So feel free to call terrorists snakes, because you will essentially be telling the truth.*
So we have two choices, confront the unknown, death itself and follow the ever evolving train of consciousness - becoming ever more human (and indeed divine) in the process, or turn your back on it, cuddle up in your nice reptilian bed and stay a snake forever.
The choice is yours.
* (FOOTNOTE) However, the issue of terrorism is of course a lot more complex than that as the film V for Vendetta so poignantly points out. The mere fact that we label someone a terrorist doesn't mean that they work from a lower-level consciousness than us. It could in fact be that we have taken the liberty to define right and wrong when no such right had been given us, and that our definitions are so far off the mark, so ... evil ... that those individuals we'd like to label as terrorists are in fact operating at a higher level consciousness than us. In today's world, it seems to almost exclusively not be the case (even though it's hard to imagine someone operating at a lower level of consciousness than the US administration, I know), but in the future, the terrorists may actually be the good guys.
Thursday, 24. August 2006, 20:47:58
Originally posted by EivindFS:
I claim, and I'm willing to put my life on the line to defend this notion, that a pleasurable existence is IMPOSSIBLE to attain without confronting the unknown.
Yes, that's math... Opposite applies too, confront the unknown, and a "non existence" is possible... So, who wants to take the first step... "exploring" the unknown... ???... and...
Is exploring, in human terms, vital for survival... ???... Probably not. Animals do survive... crocodiles even for hundred million years, without a noticable change in feature or operation...
Yes, seeking a more pleasurable existence, is a goal. However, that seems to be impossible, without taking some pleasure from others... Is pleasure a fixed mass, only the distribution variable... I get more if you get less... ???...
Is that why exploration mostly is a "democratic" decision, funded by taxpayers. If it benefits the majority, it's fine, from election to election... ???...
Enlightenment is fine, but is a neverending story, by definition... The benefit is not without a cost... A community might win, but there will be loosing individuals, too... They would be happier "fearing the unknown"...
Friday, 25. August 2006, 08:37:38
I'm not sure I understand your questions, Investor. I don't see exploration as a democratic decision and therefore do not understand that aspect of your post. Exploration is an individual decision. If I as an individual live in a society that is spending resources on exploration, that doesn't affect my personal freedom in anywhere near the same way as if I was personally responsible for it. (I'm not saying it doesn't affect it at all, but if the freedom comes from the outside, it's not really freedom in the sense that I'm discussing it)
Also, even though enlightenment is definitely a neverending story, I don't understand that there is a cost attached to it (apart from losing your separate self sense, which is not a loss at all). So I don't understand that part of your post
And additionally, I don't see a pleasurable existence as an effect of taking pleasure from others. In fact, I see it as exactly the opposite. A low level of physical pleasure can indeed be taken, but REAL pleasure, that is genuine happiness, cannot be taken; it is a result of a lot of work, unfailing integrity and a good heart. So I don't understand that part of your post either (the very fact that you suggest happiness can for some people be a result of fear is preposterous to me).
It's difficult to debate something when I have no idea what you're talking about
Also, even though enlightenment is definitely a neverending story, I don't understand that there is a cost attached to it (apart from losing your separate self sense, which is not a loss at all). So I don't understand that part of your post
And additionally, I don't see a pleasurable existence as an effect of taking pleasure from others. In fact, I see it as exactly the opposite. A low level of physical pleasure can indeed be taken, but REAL pleasure, that is genuine happiness, cannot be taken; it is a result of a lot of work, unfailing integrity and a good heart. So I don't understand that part of your post either (the very fact that you suggest happiness can for some people be a result of fear is preposterous to me).
It's difficult to debate something when I have no idea what you're talking about
Friday, 25. August 2006, 09:36:26
Originally posted by EivindFS:
I have no idea what you're talking about
Oh... not difficult... ie. exploration of oil... oil spill... destruction of fauna... income as fisherman gone... Some are happy, some are not... Seems that alot of explorations have negative sideeffects... so some major force must decide to start it, or not... a force like a "democracy"... etc....
Friday, 25. August 2006, 10:50:29
Aha, so you're talking about scientific exploration whereas I'm talking about emotional/spiritual exploration. Now I understand Both are of course important. But outer exploration is only safe when it's accompanied by inner exploration - and in today's world there is a huge discrepancy between the amount of attention given them. That is the source of the problems you speak of, I think. Would you agree with this notion?
Both are of course important. But outer exploration is only safe when it's accompanied by inner exploration - and in today's world there is a huge discrepancy between the amount of attention given them. That is the source of the problems you speak of, I think. Would you agree with this notion?
Thursday, 7. September 2006, 00:28:46
Fear is required for survival.
If you have no fear, you will take take risks that will end your life.
Fear makes you think before you act.
Acting without thinking about the outcome will end your life.
Those that fear are capable of surviving longer.
Those that fear are more likely to procreate.
Fear is nature's way of ensuring the survival of the organism.
The "Darwin Awards" are given to people for removing themselves from the gene pool through stupidity.
Without fear, you will qualify for a "Darwin Award"!
If you have no fear, you will take take risks that will end your life.
Fear makes you think before you act.
Acting without thinking about the outcome will end your life.
Those that fear are capable of surviving longer.
Those that fear are more likely to procreate.
Fear is nature's way of ensuring the survival of the organism.
The "Darwin Awards" are given to people for removing themselves from the gene pool through stupidity.
Without fear, you will qualify for a "Darwin Award"!
Friday, 8. September 2006, 16:18:58
Fear of the unknown is an ancient ans outdated instinct. In cave man times it was needed, there were allot of predators and dangers back then but in modern times and through out most of human civilisation fear of the unknown has lead to war, oppression and genocide.
Monday, 11. September 2006, 15:12:23
Sohappysingle, even though I respect your opinion, I think you make the same mistake most people who defend it does: Mix it up with common sense. You don't need to be afraid of heights to not jump off a bridge - you just need common sense. You don't need fear to not stab a knife in your heart - you just need common sense. You don't need fear to stop you jumping into shark-infested waters - you just need common sense.
Common sense and a calm, clear and rational mind dispatches fear like the sun dispatches morning dew, but fear dispatches common sense in much the same way. It is a strange characteristic with fear that the more you're afraid of something, the more it dominates your life experience, and in the end it's quite possible that you subconsciously seek out places where that which you fear is found. You think a suicide-bomber is unafraid of death? Not at all, there's hardly anyone more afraid of it. And it drives them so head-splittingly irrational they go blow themselves up.
Ever stood at the edge of a chasm and felt an ever so subtle inner voice beckoning you to jump? That's the paradoxical nature of fear rearing its mysterious head.
Common sense and a calm, clear and rational mind dispatches fear like the sun dispatches morning dew, but fear dispatches common sense in much the same way. It is a strange characteristic with fear that the more you're afraid of something, the more it dominates your life experience, and in the end it's quite possible that you subconsciously seek out places where that which you fear is found. You think a suicide-bomber is unafraid of death? Not at all, there's hardly anyone more afraid of it. And it drives them so head-splittingly irrational they go blow themselves up.
Ever stood at the edge of a chasm and felt an ever so subtle inner voice beckoning you to jump? That's the paradoxical nature of fear rearing its mysterious head.
Friday, 22. September 2006, 13:33:16
i'm not afraid of the unknown, i’m even attracted by it… i’m afraid of the known stuff i had bad experience with…
Sunday, 24. September 2006, 10:34:31
Originally posted by zen4life:
i'm not afraid of the unknown, i’m even attracted by it… i’m afraid of the known stuff i had bad experience with…
That makes sense to me!
Monday, 25. September 2006, 04:41:19
Originally posted by zen4life:
i'm not afraid of the unknown, i’m even attracted by it… i’m afraid of the known stuff i had bad experience with…
First off, I'd just like to say, I'm new here. I'm 17, and I'm doing an essay on "How the fear of the unknown led to the condemnation of the "witches" in The Crucible". So I was surfing google, and it lead me to this forum, and this is EXACTLY the stuff I love to talk about and read about, and just this topic alone has blown my mind.
Ok so, I'm posting, because I wanted EivindFS or someone to address what zen4life said.
and just for the record, my fear of the unknown pertains, to ghosts or demons, it seriously cripples me where I can't even go in the kitchen at night if I need to.
Anyways, glad I found this place!
Monday, 25. September 2006, 18:25:35
Originally posted by Musickiks:
Ok so, I'm posting, because I wanted EivindFS or someone to address what zen4life said.
i think i didn't get this right... could you explain what you wanted to say...(note: i'm not native english speaker)
Tuesday, 10. October 2006, 12:59:44
Yeah, what exactly did you want addressed, Musickiks? :-)
Your example of your personal fear makes me want to point out that fear comes in two broad categories: Irrational fear and rational fear. Irrational fear is walking in the woods at night and expecting monsters and axe murderers to come leaping out of every bush you pass. Rational fear is ducking for cover when you find yourself between two people firing guns at each other. For most people, irrational fear rules the day; many people go through life without having had a single REAL reason to be afraid, yet they are often the most afraid of all. Such people will by default expect their plane to drop out of the sky, their boat to crash and sink, their children to get raped and murdered, their boss to hate them, their friends to talk behind their backs etc etc.
This irrational fear comes from too much mental noise and a lack of awareness. The city mind is generally fearful as it's full of crap that we're normally not conscious of. Leave the big city and go into the woods at night and you'll be pissing your pants as the mental garbage comes shooting for the surface in forms of ghosts and goblins, rapists and wolves. Stay there for a couple of days and everything will be fine. The untrained mind grasps at everything and would much rather be afraid than "neutral". With mental training, fear dissipates as the mind is not addicted to drama anymore.
Irrational fear is an addiction that wants more. Rational fear on the other hand is taking care of yourself when there's a real danger that your survival is at stake. And this is where most people go wrong as they see dangers where they don't exist. Rational fear is almost instinctual, which makes me think that "rational" is really a bad label for it, while irrational fear is a human invention - it only comes with a sense of self and a certain mental development.
I don't know if that was helpful, but there you go.
Your example of your personal fear makes me want to point out that fear comes in two broad categories: Irrational fear and rational fear. Irrational fear is walking in the woods at night and expecting monsters and axe murderers to come leaping out of every bush you pass. Rational fear is ducking for cover when you find yourself between two people firing guns at each other. For most people, irrational fear rules the day; many people go through life without having had a single REAL reason to be afraid, yet they are often the most afraid of all. Such people will by default expect their plane to drop out of the sky, their boat to crash and sink, their children to get raped and murdered, their boss to hate them, their friends to talk behind their backs etc etc.
This irrational fear comes from too much mental noise and a lack of awareness. The city mind is generally fearful as it's full of crap that we're normally not conscious of. Leave the big city and go into the woods at night and you'll be pissing your pants as the mental garbage comes shooting for the surface in forms of ghosts and goblins, rapists and wolves. Stay there for a couple of days and everything will be fine. The untrained mind grasps at everything and would much rather be afraid than "neutral". With mental training, fear dissipates as the mind is not addicted to drama anymore.
Irrational fear is an addiction that wants more. Rational fear on the other hand is taking care of yourself when there's a real danger that your survival is at stake. And this is where most people go wrong as they see dangers where they don't exist. Rational fear is almost instinctual, which makes me think that "rational" is really a bad label for it, while irrational fear is a human invention - it only comes with a sense of self and a certain mental development.
I don't know if that was helpful, but there you go.
Forums » 1 Philosophy » General Philosophy
Moderated by:
Try a faster and more secure Web browser. Download Opera
Help | Disclaimer | Terms of service | Web analytics powered by HitsLink
